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Post by zholud on Feb 15, 2004 13:40:35 GMT -5
So guess that means its all for grabs. But as a working premise, I was merely saying that I'm find with the idea that the adeptus ministorum has first dibs on the schola progenium, but I will not extend that to supposition that it has control of all education in the Imperium. With other, non-Ecclesiarchial education is also severely limited IMHO. Main natural sciences (physics, chemistry) are limited to Mechanicus, just because others should start from scrap and thus won’t pay-off their investments in reasonable time. What is the need in re-discovering Newton’s laws if the mechanism on their principles for 40k magi is akin to very good stone axe for us. The arts are also limited. The history has ‘top secret’ sign all over the place and you’d be happy if one day you just became closed in some inquisition library. Social sciences and languages are severely affected by Ministorum too. The non-militant orders of Sisters study both human dialects and xenos speech; economy and sociology; management and medicine. Others are limited in their right to study those subjects, because: - Xenos languages – why this scientist need to speak with filthy xenos?! Burn him!
- Management – uncontrolled wealth may give too much power to individual and thus corrupt him.
So, despite I definitely agree that there is a fair share of secular (non-Ministorum and non-Mechanicus) education but it is very limited.  |
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 15, 2004 19:39:10 GMT -5
With other, non-Ecclesiarchial education is also severely limited IMHO. Main natural sciences (physics, chemistry) are limited to Mechanicus, just because others should start from scrap and thus won’t pay-off their investments in reasonable time. I disagree with both of these statements, but I've got a feeling that is more a case of extent than anything else. The 'fluff' makes it obvious that education does existe and not only that but it makes sense if it separate from that of the adeptus ministorum. Whether it is in terms of local philosophy, the history of a world... all are subjects which may or may not be taught. The sciences are an outgrowth of this, for me. I find it difficult to believe that all knowledge is controlled between the adeptus ministorum and the adeptus mechanicus. The examples from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels and the Eisenhorn trilogy prove this to me, as well as just general consideration: the adeptus terra is the government of the Imperium, it is not necessarily the government of an individual world. That relies upon the Imperial Commander. But, obviously, that is the Imperial Commander and the level of integration is always going to be up for grabs. Again, I would say that education on all facets of 'knowledge' exist, although only to a point in certain areas. The adeptus mechanicus and minostrum while they do not control this education, do have significant power that they can bring to sway to ensure that official policy maintains their stranghlehold on information. For me this creates a far more interesting and dynamic situation. Rather than the specific statement of "They control everything and you can learn nothing" we have a "They control the greatest of a 'thing', but have significant influence over the manifestations of that 'thing' in the Imperium..." Unless, of course, we're working upon the principle that all worlds of the Imperium are cultural clones of each other, not something which would be entirely inappropriate but definitely out of kilter for the 'fluff'... What is the need in re-discovering Newton’s laws if the mechanism on their principles for 40k magi is akin to very good stone axe for us. So it impossible for people to discover theories for themselves since the adeptus mechanicus already has more advanced and developed theories? No, I'm not buying this, more so that I have always been a firm believer and advocate in the "diffuse technology" argument whereby the adeptus mechanicus does not singularly control the manufacturing and technological capacity of the Imperium... The knowledge is also a byproduct of this. It seems that you share a different approach. The arts are also limited. The history has ‘top secret’ sign all over the place and you’d be happy if one day you just became closed in some inquisition library. Not all history is a question of Imperial history. It seems that we fundamentally disagree upon education in the Imperium. I wonder if compromise is possible... Kage |
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Post by zholud on Feb 16, 2004 13:49:26 GMT -5
It seems that we fundamentally disagree upon education in the Imperium. I wonder if compromise is possible... For me we are much closer than it seems.  I agree that there is secular education, especially on richer worlds. But I am sure that main or at least major player in the branch of education is Ecclesiarchy, similar to early and medium Middle Ages when no or almost no secular schools of any level existed in Europe. The universities in Spain appeared after the wealthy merchants became interested enough to buy-out some scientists. So what subjects you think should appear in research section of your average secular university in 40k? Who are attendants? Is there any special control? |
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 16, 2004 18:52:33 GMT -5
It's not a case of subject, but merely that simple extension of medieval education to the 'totality' of the Imperium is entirely incorrect. Not all worlds of the Imperium are feudal, though feudalism does impact on them. As such they can create a non-feudal education systems which are beyond the trappings of religion... Cultural analogy can go too far. Kage |
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Post by zholud on Feb 17, 2004 13:20:24 GMT -5
It's not a case of subject, but merely that simple extension of medieval education to the 'totality' of the Imperium is entirely incorrect. Not all worlds of the Imperium are feudal, though feudalism does impact on them. As such they can create a non-feudal education systems which are beyond the trappings of religion... Oh, Kage, you’ve misunderstood me. I was relating education for Imperium as a whole, not to individual worlds! Yes, most of the worlds are civilised ones, but the Imperium is depicted as medieval and I like to keep to this imaginary whenever possible. Just like you with Romanesque Imperium… but still, drop the list of sactioned studies… |
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 17, 2004 18:49:04 GMT -5
What would be the point? You could argue that everything is sanctioned, or nothing... well, apart from warp studies. And again, I'm suggesting that 'secular' schools are actually not that uncommon. Kage |
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Post by zholud on Feb 18, 2004 16:43:22 GMT -5
What would be the point? You could argue that everything is sanctioned, or nothing... well, apart from warp studies. No Kage, I have another idea in my mind. As you may know 500 years ago we, as civilisations of Earth had professional solders who actually know how to fight and were able to withstand superior in terms of manpower force by their knowledge. 200 years ago knowledge about large scale warfare became science, especially in manufacturing and usage of artillery. Right now you can train ape to use AK-47 or even some anti-tank thingie. This means that with time knowledge needed to use tools could be much smaller when the tools became more efficient. Lass need in knowledge leads to decrease in the number of specialists. Take the list of usual sciences and arts and think which ones could be of interest to local nobility so they fund universities. - Math. I don’t think it is used widely as subject per se in Imperium.
- Geology. At first I thought I found nice subject, but then I decided that with tech you don’t usually need to know whether it is good piece of rock, because your special auspex will scan it on all frequencies and report you about everything inside. Again no much training.
- Physics. I don’t think that it is easy to got how warp drive is working, and rediscovering bicycle when you know how to make a car seems strange and unproductive.
- Biology. The most interested part are already taken by =][= and AM, so no real widespread education on it.
List can be continued but I hope you get the point I still assume that over 95% of primary education is Ecclesiarchial, as well as ~80% of higher levels. 5% are Mechanicus and =][= and the rest is local plus Administratum plus navy… Discuss, show your proportions. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 19, 2004 17:48:24 GMT -5
You know, there are times that you can get tired of seeing this especially with 18 hour working days and replying in those brief snatches away from work that you can manage. I'm sorry... I just feel that trying to represent the proportions of education to be fairly redundant. There is a tactic assumption that because a 'discipline' is under the established provenance of an Imperial organisation that this would be entirely controlled. There are also concomittant assumptions with regards to the integration of these organisations, and a whole lot of other things... I would be entirely disappointed if education was entirely 'chanting of prayers'...  Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 19, 2004 17:55:35 GMT -5
Let's stick to the Arts, social, medical and religious studies, shall we?
As we know, in general, science is largely controlled by the Mechanicus. You will certainly not get cutting-edge research in the physical sciences, as such disciplines are considered to be lost, sacred or heretical depending on your standpoint.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 19, 2004 18:15:06 GMT -5
Knowledge of the physical sciences is self-evidently present, however. Putting them under the heading of 'AdMech' is just GW's way out of it... Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 20, 2004 10:24:45 GMT -5
Such knowledge would be more of the practical form, though; to the extent that I'd call it engineering rather than science. Things that are obvious to a trained observer, are perfectly legitimate. Things that you need millions of Imperial's worth of equipment to even begin to hypothesise about would not. In terms of theoretical/quantum physics at least, we in the 20th century are way in advance of the Imperium at large.
Not that their development in such areas is retarded in anyway, it's just that they're not trying. There are more important things to worry about, like how to stop air filters getting clagged up with Tyranid spores.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 20, 2004 15:06:20 GMT -5
It ultimately comes down to the level of integration of the Imperium onto individual worlds. zholud seems to be arguing for full integration and/or control, with little independence. I prefer a bit more flexibility such that a world has its own educational 'vector', as it were. So I can quite readily see them having, if you'll forgive the reference back to GURPS, TL9 science. The point is that the adeptus mechanicus is more advanced, and it is that knowledge that is controlled... But then again this might just mean that the maximum TL for a world is going to be 8, which would put them roughly on par with 'us'. TL9 is only available on limited franchise, and TL10 is restricted entirely to Forgeworlds. That would be the mechanical solution, but there would be a huge number of implications... Kage |
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Post by zholud on Feb 20, 2004 16:02:27 GMT -5
Just to clarify: for me Imperium consists of quite an independent worlds, were imperial governor could do almost anything till he pays tithes. The education in Imperium is much more united, similar to medieval Europe where all scientists had one language (Latin) and close schools (on the basis of monastic orders) as well as same primary sources (Bible and Aristotle’s Logic). The states in Europe were small and each castle was largely independent, but the education and more important, science and research were much more united. I envision similar situation in Imperium with added totalitarian bit, that it pays off when you give primary education which boost morale more that brings possibility of heresy. As to TLs, I’m still very suspicious about them as my previous example on weapons suggests –with time development of weapon or other tool takes more education, but usage can go in opposite direction, thus the results that e.g. physics may achieve are equivalent to super-optimised stone axe – it is better than brute axe made by TL0 person, but you prefer assault rifle… is my point clear? The research depends on funds and why would governor etc give funds to build labs which could only optimise creation of stone axes? Because what AM sell is better than maximum that we achieve in our TL… |
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 20, 2004 16:35:44 GMT -5
Since that's the 'fluff', that's good. Of course, how much sense it makes given the length of time that a world has been Imperial is up for grabs... Imperial for a long time and therefore mimicking 'Imperial society', or independent and with it's own development...? And I'm not sold on the medieval argument, I'm afraid. Too static a situation given the supposed 'independence' of worlds. So I'm guess I'm saying I disagree. Entirely, especially since it reinforces the 'every world is a castle' argument which I find completely tedious. I'm interested in homeostatic empires, not boorish planets... Erm, no, not in the slightest. Perhaps it is a poor example, more than anythign else? Stone axes? You're now saying that everyone is at stone age because...? Or is this where you're getting into circularity? A world is at 'stone age' level of technology in terms of independent development because the adeptus mechanicus/whatever control technological evolution and, therefore, there can be no independent development. Thus there is no point considering independent development because it is not possible and, also, the adeptus mechanicus produces everything and it's better than you can produce so what is the point? I really do not agree with that, more so because one aspect of the 'fluff' - the statement that different worlds produce different quality goods - strongly implies an independent technological approach. Kage |
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Post by Minister on Feb 21, 2004 5:14:10 GMT -5
"Such knowledge would be more of the practical form, though; to the extent that I'd call it engineering rather than science."
That is my thought as well. Any "sciences" perpitrated by members of the Imperium at large rather than the Mechanicus would be solidly grounded in actual observation rather than the more theoretical stuff that researchers often work from.
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I agree that there is secular education, especially on richer worlds. But I am sure that main or at least major player in the branch of education is Ecclesiarchy, similar to early and medium Middle Ages when no or almost no secular schools of any level existed in Europe. The universities in Spain appeared after the wealthy merchants became interested enough to buy-out some scientists.
