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Post by Inquisitor Lord Vatsyayana on Jul 12, 2004 6:30:18 GMT -5
Oh, and where is this proto-dimension supposed to be?
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Post by Destecado on Jul 12, 2004 11:11:27 GMT -5
Oh, and where is this proto-dimension supposed to be? The remanats of the proto dimension are at the heart of the Anargo sub-sector. For further info check out the following link. kagemat.proboards19.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Meta&thread=1081696405&start=0I've been giving the whole concept some thought, and I have to say that I really do not like the idea of having the Imperium involved in Dyson sphere. They may arrive later, but should not be settled into it to the extend indicated in the write up. The proto dimension was originally designed as a prison for the Necrons by the Old Ones. the old Ones though highly advanced were not complete experts on creating complete realities that functioned autotonamously. It was their intention to have a monitor watch over the dimension and maintain its "reality". Unfortunately the Old Ones disappeared, leaving the proto dimension without an overseer. Internal stresses and flaws in the design eventually caused the reality to fracture into several smaller pieces. It is possible that the Necrons built the Dyson Sphere within the one of these fractured pieces. One of the ideas that I had discussed with Kage is that perhaps the Necrons were somehow changed by the laws governing the new reality. The thought was that the laws of the new reality might differ sufficiently from our own to perhaps return sentience to the Necrons. There might actually be a war between the group that is sentient and those that are still slaves to the C'tan or Necron Lords. They may have found a way to grow new bodies of flesh and deposit their minds into these bodies. These may have been the original inhabitants of the Dyson Sphere. As for the creation of the sphere, it may be that it was created as a way to counteract the effects of entropy. The original proto dimension fractured into several parts. Some of these have stabilized and are akin to small pocket realities. Others have begun to unravel. They are slowly breaking down evaporating into nothingness. By making the dyson sphere at the center of the reality, they may be trying to wait out the inevitable or atleast stay far enough ahead of the advancing wake edge of the warp. The dyson sphere could have been created for another reason entirely. It could be the elimination of all worlds that could be of any use to the machine Necrons. Instead of garrisoning many worlds and spreading out their limited population, they may have descided to concentrate their assets in the dyson sphere. The spere would require many worlds to construct. By taking these worlds for use in the dyson sphere, they were also taking the resources of those worlds away from their adversaries. to attack them, the Necrons would have to attack the Dyson sphere directly. the war could have gone on for many generations. Perhaps it took that long for the Necrons to finally perfect the technology to recreate bodies of flesh. In that time it might be that the other Necrons found a way to move onto the other proto dimensions or went into stasis to wait their enemy out. It could be that faced with mortal bodies, the Necrontyr turned inwards. Safe inside their dyson sphere, they would not have to venture without, so they began to focus on other aspects of their culture. Come to think of it instead of one large dyson sphere, would it not be possible to create artificial suns and make an object that is smaller, but mobile. there could be several of these spheres, that serve as both habitat and warship to the necrontyr. Depending on what the characteristics of the race that exists inside will be like, we may be able to incorporate the concept for the Fantasy style world I mentrioned here (the one about several realms contained within a larger planetoid). The idea of the computer IA keeping watch over the inside culd still exist. It is the mind that keeps the facilities of the habitation running. There could also be several rather than one. I don't think that the Necrontyr would be willing to put themselves at the mercy of a single intelect after their prevous imprisonment by the Necron Lords. Maybe it was also done on a rotation basis. since they could download their brains back into physical bodies, they might have the ability to exit from them and inhabit machines....kind of the idea of sentinece and moving around inside machine as brought up in Ghost in the Shell. It of course comes down to how we wish to proceed with the idea. Unlike the othe Necrons that went to sleep ages ago, the Necrontyr would have been awake and possible evolving all of that time. Maybe they eventually left behind all physical forms living as energy or perhaps they devolved into a primitive race that still lives in the spheres watched over by those last on duty regulating the systems of the habitat. they may even worship these beings as gods....What are your thoughts? |
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Vatsyayana on Jul 12, 2004 14:41:30 GMT -5
First off, thanksfor the feedback Destecado. I tried searching for the protodimension and didn't have any luck at all.  It could be possible to have smaller Dyson spheres that were "mobile" so to speak. It is a possibility that a gas giant could be triggered into a sun. A Dyson sphere could then be built around it. Size would be relative to the size of the sun thus created, but I have a hard time seeing such a size as being anything less than approximately .5 AU. Here's another thought. The Dyson sphere, and or smaller satelite spheres (if we wish to go that direction) could have been created by an older race. They fled because of the Necron invasion, leaving the sphere(s) behind. Perhaps each sphere is even connected somehow, through some kind of gate/teleporter system. The smaller spheres could have been of Necron design, from tech gleaned from the computer. They then created a network of sorts, with the main sphere as the main base. That could give the main computer a dislike for the Necrons and yet another reason for needing servants for an army. Ultimately, I wouldn't want any one group in control of the sphere. I think a better plot complication (and game balance) is to have the sphere using it's human population of puppets to its own design... primarily a continued existence. A Dyson sphere also provides an immense area in which to contest. Given its age, even the computer wouldn't be perfect (broken down sensors, etc.) and other factions might acidently find thier way into the sphere. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 13, 2004 0:14:02 GMT -5
On the Dyson Sphere... I will reiterate that I am most unkeen on having a Dyson Sphere in the Anargo Sector.
If you're going to go for an advanced construction, couldn't we go for something a tad less... significant. Significant in terms of size, that is. I forget the term (don't have MegaTraveller Referee's Companion with me), but wouldn't artificial worlds (as in world-sized) be more interesting? The whole polyhedral worlds rotating around a common centre of gravity, joined by 'struts', etc.?
This would allow the 'several fantasy race' thing, without stepping on the 'thematic army' consideration... A bit harder to work out since the 'joined worlds' would require an "inner world" concept, while a suit of worlds orbitting around a common point of gravity would not (though wouldn't have the links)...
Having an advanced structure in one of the proto-dimensional fragments is, however, intriguing...
Necrons and sentience... The 'mindless' only comes through the 'fluff' which, once again, is trying to generate a specific feel to the Necrons. I work on the principle that the minds were transferred whole, the souls lost. Over millennia, copy/transcription errors result in the debased Necrons not the fact that they're just robots...
(Of course, why they didn't keep an archive is up for grabs, though "memory considerations" are a way out of that little problem...)
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Vatsyayana on Jul 13, 2004 1:46:22 GMT -5
There are a number of different ways we could go. It could be a rosette. A string of pearls. Or a strut work like you recommended. In some ways, worlds connected by struts (i.e. Starship Andromeda) would seem very Warhammer 40K. I was thinking a Dyson sphere because it also could have a 40K feel. Not to mention the sheer ammount of land mass would make for a large number of campaign ideas.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 13, 2004 1:56:13 GMT -5
For the reasons of thematic armies I'm concerned. Again, maybe a bit of over-caution, but so far everything that has been created (i.e. xenos breeds) have all been hyper-advanced... Integrating the hyper-advanced with the primitive is something that I do find intriguing without going down the problems of the Dyson sphere combined with the aforementioned land mass... Again, maybe I'm being overtly cautious. And incidentally, a purely semantic thing. If the protodimensional fragments were involved, then the world could not realy be at the "Heart of Sargassos"...  But that's a really minor consideration. We have to figure out whether Sargassos is moving and, if so, where to... |
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Vatsyayana on Jul 13, 2004 2:39:04 GMT -5
For the reasons of thematic armies I'm concerned. Again, maybe a bit of over-caution, but so far everything that has been created (i.e. xenos breeds) have all been hyper-advanced... Integrating the hyper-advanced with the primitive is something that I do find intriguing without going down the problems of the Dyson sphere combined with the aforementioned land mass... Again, maybe I'm being overtly cautious. Nothing wrong with being overly cautious... it keeps you from getting flammed on the boards. Well, the mercenaries would not be hyper-advanced themselves. They are litteral servants of the machine and the machine gives them only what they need to do thier job. For the most part, they'd still use Imperial weaponry 98% of the time. The computer would also fight to keep others from subjugating her, hence the reason for servants. Given the size of most armies in 40K, she would need more than just robots to ensure survival. As to size, we could easily scale things down as well. It could somehow be a smaller sphere, maybe 8 worlds in diameter. This is science fantasy after all. Or we could go with one of the other ideas as well. We just need to decide what to go with. Once we decide that, we can move the thread or start a new one. |
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Post by Destecado on Jul 13, 2004 4:20:13 GMT -5
For the reasons of thematic armies I'm concerned. Again, maybe a bit of over-caution, but so far everything that has been created (i.e. xenos breeds) have all been hyper-advanced... Integrating the hyper-advanced with the primitive is something that I do find intriguing without going down the problems of the Dyson sphere combined with the aforementioned land mass... Again, maybe I'm being overtly cautious. And incidentally, a purely semantic thing. If the protodimensional fragments were involved, then the world could not realy be at the "Heart of Sargassos"... But that's a really minor consideration. We have to figure out whether Sargassos is moving and, if so, where to... I don't think that it should be in the Sargasso Gulf. In my original post I was indicating that it should be moved to the Heart of the Sector instead. The Sargasso Gulf is not empty. There are still remnants of the Pre-Strife era Culture within it. I can post the discussion of that idea here if you think it willbe of assistance. If you wish we can also move this topic out of the Sargassos Sub-sector and into the Meta-Concepts thread. As to the disposition of the Necrons.....I can buy that their sentience has degraded due to the the ravages of making a copy of a copy. The question becomes do we want to have the dyson sphere (or whatever) designed by them or did another race develope within the protodimension, flourish and then disappear. A Klemper Rosette would be an interesting concept. For stability it would generally consist of either 12-24 worlds of similar sizes. I don't see the worlds as being connected by struts as the world ship in andromeda. they are instead equidistant and sharing the same period around a central body be it a planet or sun. We then have to deside if the worlds are natural or if they are constructs or a combination of the two. I figure that it might be able to manuver around using some form of gravity drive. |
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Vatsyayana on Jul 13, 2004 4:57:20 GMT -5
I'm not set on having it in the Sargasso sector. I think it should be somewhere "out of the way" however and not easily gotten to, otherwise the Imperials would be all over it. Agreed that the topic should be moved. As to a rosette, its just as valid a concept. In some ways it would allow for more control over any inhabitants. The worlds could be connected to each other and transfer between the two through some kind of complex gate. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 13, 2004 8:16:20 GMT -5
I will say now - and again! - that I do not take a favourable stance to the inclusion of a Dyson Sphere at this point. I find the Rossetta concept far more interesting in terms of adding something to the Anargo sector... it is most definitey something that hasn't been included in a previous GW publication. (And, yes, while the ASP was designed to be a normal 'Imperium' subsector, it doesn't mean that we cannot sometimes get a bit whacky with our xenos concepts.) And, if people are willing, it should be moved to World Building (not Meta). |
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Vatsyayana on Jul 13, 2004 8:58:33 GMT -5
Well, as was said, we don't have to stick with a Dyson sphere. A rosette, maybe even something far more high tech like a string of pearls could be done just as well. And yes, let's move the thread. |
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Vatsyayana on Jul 14, 2004 5:34:53 GMT -5
Ok, how about this for an idea.
Three worlds are placed in orbit around a small star. The worlds are connected to each other (loosely speaking) by a ring of pearls. Each pearl is 100km in diameter and connect to each other with teleporters. A pearl is halfway embedded in each planet to connect the entire ring together. There are about 100 pearls between each planet.
One end of the string is a large space station that houses the central computer.
The orbit lies at the 30 million kilometer mark. All three planets show signs of definite terraforming. While one is perfect as a hive world, the second is an agri class world and the third is a jungle world with dangerous carnivores.
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Post by Destecado on Jul 15, 2004 10:16:35 GMT -5
Three worlds are placed in orbit around a small star. The worlds are connected to each other (loosely speaking) by a ring of pearls. Each pearl is 100km in diameter and connect to each other with teleporters. A pearl is halfway embedded in each planet to connect the entire ring together. There are about 100 pearls between each planet. Personally, I think that 12-24 planets would be sufficient. The pearl might provide more space, but we need to consider the trade offs. The first thing to consider is stability. The number I gave of 12-24 worlds is based off of several Klemper Models that show it as perhaps one of the more stable designs. Adding more worlds could lead to long term instability which could break apart the string of pearls. Of course those that made the string might have the technology to stop this from occuring. based on the writeup, they do not seem to be around and I worry about putting such technology into the hands of the Imperium or even an off shoot group based on the Imperium. Speaking of technology, we need to consider how advance we want this culture to be. The technological acuem need to make the string of pearls is much greater than that needed to produce the one with 12-24 worlds. Of course they may be on par if the worlds being used are actual planets moved into orbit in the rosette. I was contemplating a less auspicious construction that consisted of artificially made worlds. If we go with this model than each spere could have its own internallized artificial sun. This would remove the need for a central star. in its place could be placed a planet or another artificial sphere of greater mass than those orbiting it. The central computer could then be housed on this central planet. Granted, we wind up with some of the issues that face a dyson sphere, such as how to create the effects of gravity, that hold people and buildings to the inside of a sphere... It does give us some benefits though. Artificial suns might lower the risk of a chatostrophic nova or flare killing much of the populace. It also gives the ability for the rosette to serve as a giant space craft. With normal planets, there is the issue of the possible loss of planetary atmosphere or encountering lethal radiation. The energy costs for moving a planet would also appear to be much greater than constructing an artificial body at a stable point in orbit. |
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Post by CELS on Jul 15, 2004 10:38:41 GMT -5
Could someone explain the concept of a rosette to us lesser nerds, please? What's the point of having all these worlds connected by all these pearls? |
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Post by Destecado on Jul 15, 2004 11:01:31 GMT -5
the idea behind the rosette was first put forward by W.B. Kemplerer in the Astronomical Journal in 1962. For the most part is What Kemplerer shows in the paper is that an even number of bodies can orbit about their center of mass if certain properties are met.
In other words a even number of bodies with the same mass can occupy the same plain, orbiting a central mass. it must be noted that such an arrangement is not stable under random perturbations, so it must stay far away from other gravitating bodies.
It therefore makes for a good vehicle in interstellar space away from other gravity wells. This is the rosette. the worlds are held together by the attraction to the central mass as well as to each others. The string of pearls is slightly different.
The main reason behind going to such a set up was to step back from the concept of the dyson sphere originally put forward in this thread. It provides for a large alien artifact, while still providing mobility. Come to think of it, one of the reasons that it has not been found by the Imperium is because it is not in a system, but traveling through interstellar space.
Warp drive ships usually jump from system to system. Little is probably known of the space between systems, so such an artifact might go unnoticed.
The originalintent of the dyson sphere concept was to create a base for a thematic army and for perhaps another alien race (although now long gone) within the Anargo Sector. I sort of shanghaied the idea as perhaps a way to create the Fantasy style world or worlds within the 40k framework.
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But that's a really minor consideration. We have to figure out whether Sargassos is moving and, if so, where to...