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Post by Tynesh on Jul 5, 2004 3:38:47 GMT -5
The ASP has been going on for about a year now and most of the time I have been involved with the Project I have spent my time working mostly in the Anargo Sub (primarily the capital) and the Castellan Sub (the world of Massil and the defence of the sub), in many respects I have ignored the other sub-sector developments. Over this time I came to believe that Catellan was a frontier region of the sector standing between the other sub-sectors and the Orks in the Cruiciatine Sector.
It was a great surprise to me the other day when I drew up a 2D map of the sub to give myself an idea where Castellan was and the region which it protected the other sub-sectors from. I found that Castellan is not in fact as close to the edge as many other sectors or that the order in which the major planets were arranged to aid defence were of little use. This has left me confused and worried about making further developments with the sub, until I am sure of what I am doing?
Am I wrong and the sub is in fact where it isn't, or am i correct and we have all made a boo-boo in laying out this particular sub-sector. Please tell me it is the former.
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 5, 2004 3:55:58 GMT -5
Look at the map on the link, it shows that the Castellan sub is located in the middle of one of the edges of the sector. Can someone tell me which direction the Cruiciatine Sector is!!!! Is it possible to move worlds round in the sector since the defended systems are located toward the 'top' of the sub (ie Massil and the frontier worlds) while those less protected are closer to the danger!!! maybe the orks have come from the sector to the left (ie -x direction) and onto the top of the sub-sector. As it is the sub offers little protection to the other subs at the mo! Help Me PLEASE!!!!! img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tynesh/Sector_Map.bmp |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 5, 2004 5:06:09 GMT -5
This is inherently a problem of visualisation since the co-ordinates have never changed for the planets or subsectors. (As is the people remaining, broadly, in their 'home' subsectors.) A 3d version of the Anargo map can be found here with an explanation by ZoomDog here. This map, in one form or another, has been available for quite some time...  The 'wily ork warlord' and the 'ork empire' was designed to fit snuggly into that corner with potential bleed overs into Cruciatine, Madron, Regnia, Oldcorne, Herluin, and Constabilis sectors depending on the ultimate scale of this 'empire'. Remembering, of course, that the original ork presence which decimated the Cruciatine is primarily found in, well, the Cruciatine sector... The purpose of Castellan was to act as the 'first subsector' before you got into the Anargo sector proper. Technically speaking the only reason that it is a 'front' is partially a result of the Pendulum Tide. As with other things in 40k the idea of 'fronts' and 'borders' doesn't really make that much sense given the inherent nature of warp travel (i.e. if you had a border they could just jump past it). Again, though, this is the type of thing that should have been picked up a while ago and, as such, is ultimately the 'fault' of the PPLs. Perhaps partially moderated by the fact that Castellan is one of the slower subsectors. <sigh> Whatever. Perhaps you could suggest, here, which UWP moving and - this time only - I'll perform the pertinent changes both on the archive and in the ASP database. Thanks for picking this up (really should check out Castellan more... it's just so wargame-y! ) and let us hope that this doesn't happen again. All worldbuilders should remain broadly aware, at least, of the developments in the other subsectors and, of course, have a general knowledge of the rough topography... |
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 5, 2004 23:24:10 GMT -5
Okay the maps help a bit...
...can you confirm that the silly map I did in paint above is actually correct for placement of our subs??? As on my map the Castellan sub is a little more central than on Zoomdog's map??
The main problem is see is that the 'y' co-ordinates of the Castellan sub are too high and should correspond to around 5-15 to be of any effect to protect the sub sector. This is of particular importance since the Archaios sub and Proteus are also located close to the Cruiciatine sector.
I really would hate for stars to be moved as that is not the point of creating them. Since so little work has been done on the sub sector it may be sensible to restart the few planets that have been suggest upon and shuffle them around so they better placed (by this I mean the concepts not the UWP etc)
Please Discuss!
Cheers Tynesh!
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 6, 2004 1:06:15 GMT -5
Right, now I'm confused... I took ZoomDog's information as 'correct', but looking at the raw data it doesn't seem to suggest that it is correct. Or that it is somehow rotated. I'm currently trying to find some graphical programs that will allow me to represent the data and, failing that, I'll just do two 2D Excel charts as an interim solution...
As to your image, Tynesh. No, I cannot confirm it. For some reason it is on this computer barely legible.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 6, 2004 9:39:44 GMT -5
Well i've been confused by every map i've seen i still don't know where abouts in the imperium anargo is apart from somewhere in the second arm of the galaxy, ultima segmentum. I can see u guy's don't need labels but i'm a bit thick in that respect(an arrow with "you are here" would be of great help to me)
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 6, 2004 10:55:28 GMT -5
You will have to forgive the awfulness of this map to clarify the relative positions of the subsectors within the sector. Took ages to find anything that was useable within a short period of time to produce this image. On the bright side, I would like to thank the project for making me perform this search since I now have a wonderful graph-producing package! (And also apologies for the size of the image...) Anyway, that horrendous image should hopefully appear underneath: And if that doesn't work then, as always, go hereI couldn't do a pretty legend in the time that I had to produce this, but the 'key' is roughly as follows. Also note that the world name in parentheses following the identity of the subsector is just the world that the vertical line is pulled down from to give a rough visual means of seeing 'into' the page. Anyway: Blue = Anargo subsector (Anargo) Light Grey = Archaios (Proteus) Red = Castellan (Massil) Orange = Dorvastar (Trilla) Black = Meksum (New Povolzh) Green = Sargassos (Dakar) Lime Green = Ork Empire (random world) Green/Blue = Black Hole As I look at the axes on that graph, however, I realise that I've transposed some of the darned co-ordinates. I'm going to have to redo it, but at least it shows that the position of Castellan is such that it offers a 'boundary' (kind of) to both Archaios and Anargo... Now back to the drawing board. To facilitate integration into other 'fluff', including "fan 'fluff'", the Dark Millennia 2D map of the Imperium has been used to show the position of Anargo. This is in the square 8,9 (x,y) of the following 'quadrant': I would strenuously point out that this just shows the relative position of Anargo. The Dark Millennia map is in my opinion erroneous, significantly over-estimating the size of the Imperium relative to that of the galaxy. However, it does allow us to point and say "We're here!". This places the Cruciatine sector, once again, in position 1 as noted in the sticky thread in Meta. (E.g. edge on with the foremost corner.) This means Does this clarify matters? |
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Post by Dazo on Jul 6, 2004 21:39:45 GMT -5
Yes that has helped me immensly(both maps), also the term subsector is now clearer to me thanks Kage, but are those grey dots next to the red ones
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 6, 2004 22:37:13 GMT -5
Thank you oh wise and great project leader for enlightening me on this matter. I have seen the shape of our worlds and have been become enknowledged!!!
That has at least calmed me down somewhat!
So would it be possible then to move swap Massil with another planet in the Castellan sub-sector putting it in a more sensible place???
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 6, 2004 23:49:47 GMT -5
Unfortunately that graph/map is incorrect, as I suspected when I actually looked at things. As I posted in general descriptions ages ago, the 'ork empire' is in the top left hand side of the sector if you look at it through the XY plane.
I've got a new graph/map drawn up which is correct and shows the position of Castellan relative to the 'ork empire' (which is above and away from it), so Massil is in the correct place.
And as a general rule, I'm rather against repositioning worlds merely for a matter of convenience (although I'm sure that is going to happen at some point). Regardless, it is not necessary.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 7, 2004 13:20:32 GMT -5
A 'correct' version of the map is given below. Please note that the blackhole is not placed on this but, rather, the current position of Tir'asur... well, unless someone can come up with an interesting concept (see the thread in this forum). Anyway, the modified sector map can be found below:  |
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 7, 2004 20:19:47 GMT -5
Okay I think I have realised where I have been going wrong...
...you are using a diferent way of reading the co-ordinates than me it seems???
It looks like the co-ordinates have changed, ie the numbers on the x and y planes converge (at 60) rather than orginating together at 0???
CONFUSED but will dismiss the fact.
Very good chart Kage and a good way of looking at things.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 8, 2004 4:01:03 GMT -5
That's just Graphis for you. In the above graph, the y axis actually translates to Anargo X-axis, z axis as Z-axis, and x-axis as Z-axis. Because the program, for some reason I have yet to figure (probably something to do with options to the program) has y and z (X and Y) originating from the same point as zero but, for some reason, x (Z) being 60 at this point I merely applied the translation of x=60-Z. It also means that I'm going to have to edit the Adjacent Sector thread to move Cruciatine back to where I thought it was from the start! As to the fact that you've got a "u" shape for the axes, I can actually change that depending on the rotation for the graphic (or tilt, for that matter). I selected this orientation as a consistent one for the other subsector 'graphs' that I created. Ultimately the idea was to get a good working image of the Anargo sector and its subsectors, and the distributions of systems within the subsectors. However, as pointed out by zholud some of the abstractions made in the creation of the subsector in this form can be a bit 'glitchy'... too artificial. The ASP assumes that each 'square' is actually just over a parsec (~3.34 light years) on a side. Ultimately it was desired to randomise the position of the star within this 'square' so that you could move away from the 'grid', but at the moment I feel it is rather too useful for when we begin to talk about trade routes, warp routes, etc. |
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Post by BrotherAnimosus on Jul 22, 2004 20:45:02 GMT -5
The position on the sector is still undisclosed as to where it is in the Ultima Segmetium. Where it is would also have a profound influence on what effects it experienced during the first few Hive fleet invasions or relations to local Eldar craftworld(s) ect. That or i'm a moron and missed where it was written where this sector is.
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Post by CELS on Jul 22, 2004 23:28:15 GMT -5
No, you're not a moron  But we have decided that it will be so far west in the Ultima Segmentum that it would be untouched by the Hive Fleets. As you know, Hive Fleet Behemoth hit the Eastern Fringe, and Hive Fleet Kraken was on the galactic south-east of Ultima Segmentum. We have a rough idea of where the sector will be, we just need a good map of the Imperium first. The Dark Millennia map is way off, since it assumes the Imperium covers the entire galaxy. |
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But we have decided that it will be so far west in the Ultima Segmentum that it would be untouched by the Hive Fleets. As you know, Hive Fleet Behemoth hit the Eastern Fringe, and Hive Fleet Kraken was on the galactic south-east of Ultima Segmentum.