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Post by Philip on Sept 15, 2004 7:51:52 GMT -5
'Chaos Influence' changes to 'warp affinity'.
'Taint' changes to 'power level'.I was pointing out that the side that you were arguing from gave too much emphasis to the chaotic/negative aspects, rolling over any idea that the warp just... is. That the idea that the warp is entirely dominated by Chaos rather than being 'polluted' by it doesn't sit right with me, more so because it contradicts some of the basic 'fluff'... That the 'corruption' is quite extensive is not to be questioned, but - once again - the idea that merely channelling energy is corrupting, or stealing energy from a daemon... Nah. I know, that's why I suggested changing it to 'warp affinity' (which you ignored) 'Chaos Influence' changes to 'warp affinity'. As well you know that there is a great gap between concept and finalised 'product'. And this is the point that I was constantly hammering on about in the other thread, e.g. it is just a word that admittedly has attendent context, but context changes with the change of the word. Thus in the calamity table, above, you will not it says 'psyker' instead of mage, etc. (Admittedly that table as it stands is not appropriate.) As I was talking about mechanics, I though it appropriate to start renaming elements is accordance to how the would be in the 'finial product'. These are draft rules. You will note that the 'system' already allows for this, though primarily with 'area affect' abilities and those abilities which are particularly draining (rejuvenation, etc.). I see that you've gone back to the power multiplier situation... again, this is unnecessary and somewhat grainy. At present there are a number of different interactions with the universe that the mechanics represent (even if somewhat tentatively) The power multiplier works well, but hey. Which would imply that you have to be Tainted to be powerful, something which again moves down the 'psyker=bad' approach. The 'power' of a psyker varies, in the above, with three features: Psyker/Warp Aptitude (the ease at which you learn and manipulate 'powerful' abilities), Threshold/Taint (the ability to channel energy) and individual facility with a given ability... This 'implication' is why I would like to change the wording. Taint isn't neutral sounding. As you wanted this system to treat the warp in a neutral way, I suggested changing it, and I was open to suggestions (which again you ignored). 'Taint' changes to 'power level'. Quite likely since it, yet and once again, suggests that 'psykers=bad', with concomitant implications of 'channelling daemons', etc., and all the things that force psykers into negative imagery rather than a neutral one in which the individual can bring their own interpretation. Neutralized it, see above and my previous post Perhaps since we're discussing a specific mechanical interpretation which, for the most part, tries to remain otherwise neutral it would be useful to remain within the boundaries of that system (as far as possible) rather than returning to concepts that were previously 'rejected' in other threads? (Except, of course, where they are relevant and appropriately applied to the thread in hand rather than de-railing it...) Did you actually read my posts?
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 15, 2004 8:35:26 GMT -5
First off, yes I did read the post... You do, of course, understand that I feel exactly the same way? More so with the power multiplier which is not present in the mechanics to be discussed and is, rather, bringing up something that you tried to do in the other thread? Discussing to cross purposes, in many cases. 'Chaos Influence' changes to 'warp affinity'.
'Taint' changes to 'power level'. Yes, I know. But once again we seem to be back to redesigning the system when it is not necessary to do so... or at least I have yet to see a congent argument why it must be changed. I agree that the correct selection of words can properly address the 'feel' of the 40k while maintaining neutrality. What I'm trying to do is to get that focussed around the system that I'm using rather than the introduction of new things. Actually, that's incorrect: rather, the introducing of unnecessary new mechanics. I know, that's why I suggested changing it to 'warp affinity' (which you ignored) Actually no I didn't... What is in the standard system as "Magery" or "Magical Aptitude" is now spin-doctored into "Psyker Aptitude" or perhaps more appropriately "Warp Affinity". But it also translates to the Alpha-Delta continuum mentioned in the information on Imperium psykers (though with an open-ended level for alpha-plus). However, "Warp Affinity" operates as an 'adder' to your basic statistic (IQ) to determine the amount of 'experience' required to get a psyker ability t a given level. Thus, a Beta-class psyker (Warp Affinity 3) with an IQ of 12 has an effective IQ of 15 meaning that they have an increased chance of success of achieving any given psyker affect. Thus in a neutral system a 'warp affinity', as currently advocated, is not a measure of chaotic influence... That is what Taint was suggested as being. The manifestation of chaos corruption and which is a by-product of drawing too much attention to oneself by channelling too much energy. (And this is why I liked the idea of yours that you channelled too much energy and you gained more effective Threshold... The player knows that it is the gradual, whisphered influence of Chaos but the character would not unless unusual circumstances impinged.) As I was talking about mechanics, I though it appropriate to start renaming elements is accordance to how the would be in the 'finial product'. These are draft rules. Which is fine... but it helps if you actually relate them back to the original 'rules' as well. Otherwise they become points of relative discussion and not something that is directly abstracted. It then becomes more difficult to determine whether something is actually required to be invented based upon a new thought... This is where the majority of the problems in this discussion arise. The power multiplier works well, but hey. Relate it to the system, Phillip, as above. That's the major problem we're having. How do you envisage a 'power multiplier' working within the currently advocated system and, given that the system seems broadly to work at the moment, why do you advocate it's introduction if it isn't there... beyond personal preference, of course. As described I just don't like it. The system as it stands allows for the same effect but within the context of the system, i.e. 'light healing', 'major healing', etc., but based in knowledge and, occasionally, Warp Affinity. One problem is that I'm not able to type out the entire spell *cough* psyker ability list and the explanations of their use... This 'implication' is why I would like to change the wording. Taint isn't neutral sounding. You are right there. But the 'fluff' does suggest that people can become Tainted so, at least as a working word, it seems to work without being predicated upon the idea that all 'corruption' is driven by entities. which again you ignored... Actually, semantics is something that I always come to at the end of the 'design sequence'. I just don't want to get too mired down in relative problems when the question of the viability of the representation is still there... And, of course, your cool concept of Taint and its interaction with the game mechanics as well as how it would be handled with the players. I just don't feel that you really need to go down the somewhat old route of power multipliers, more so when it doesn't relate to the system... Admittedly, I'm overtly trying to get it to fix with GURPS but there we go... 'Taint' changes to 'power level'. Taint as originally described doesn't translate well to that. 'Power level', i.e. psyker grade, is covered by Warp Affinity (Magical Aptitude), and it would be problematic to define alpha class as the 'most corrupted'. This is what I was talking about non-neutrality and implications. Did you actually read my posts? Again, yes... the question is whether you know what's being attempted here! Relative arguments are problematic given that they are applicable to everything and, in so doing, are equally inapplicable... If you discussed it in reference to a system - practically any published system - I would be able to follow what you're saying. But since you're not...
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Post by Philip on Sept 15, 2004 9:42:10 GMT -5
The idea I had for changing it to 'power level' (which would be a directly equal to Psyker class) would mean a person is [edit] not [edit]* 'tainted'. As I wrote the mechanics I realised it had to be changed, as the mechanic suggested that is wasn't negative in any way, and taint seemed inappropriate. As for multiplier, it was just an example of how it could work/ play out, and I was hoping you'd take it and run with it. It can easily be dropped, I originally though of tying it to 'Psyker class' as it would be elegant, but it can all be changed to fit GURPS if you really do not like it. =To summarize/ rewrite=The use of a Psyker power has a given effect such as healing (just like the regular healing spell in GURPS), and also increase 'statistic A' by a random amount of points (This 'random amount of points' would have to be added to the GURPS systems. Taking a cue based on the amount of Mana used to create the effects in GURPS. Light Healing heals 3hp, and stays the same as in the current rules in effect, however the only cost for using this is ability is an increase in 'statistic A'. At a guess for now, 1D6) Once 'statistic A' exceeds the character's willpower, something happens, the character may see an increase their ability (like having a good work out at the gym increase your physical fitness), or they may hear the whispers of Tzeentch (an influence by chaos), or the chaos powers make a link. Either way the character has to roll on the 'Threshold exceeded event table' (working title ;P). =Threshold exceeded event table=- Lower results include and increase in power level. The Psyker has stretched their abilities and have grown stronger as a result. This is a very good thing for a Psyker.
- Medium results suggest the Psyker has overdone it, and have suffered in a minor way as a result (like feeling stiff after a gym session that was too intensive for your fitness level). This could be minor like a headache, fatigue etc.
- Higher results suggest the Psyker has pushed far to hard and has injured themselves in some way (like braking a leg during athletics). This could be very serious in the short term but the Psyker will recover.
It could be the complete inability to use any form a Psyker ability, and perhaps some serious debilitating migraine headaches. (note: you may wish to consider adding a separate 'recovery table' where the character could gain new abilities or suffer some horrible fate. This could be how player gain new abilities, but it is very unGURPS)
- Max results, are very bad: The Psyker has virtually destroyed themselves. They lie on the floor motionless, catatonic with faint life signs...
=Power level=All Psykers are at least Power Level one. Power level is added to willpower to increase the threshold of the Psyker. Willpower + Psyker Power level = Threshold. If the roll on the 'Threshold exceeded event table' results in an increase in power level, this will also increase the characters threshold. =Gaining powers=Power/ abilities can only be gained due to trauma/ stress of some kind, this is why Psyker usually manifest at puberty (level one, with one power). The only way to gain a new power is to push abilities way to far, requiring a 'higher' result on the 'Threshold exceeded event table'. When the Psyker is recovering from the 'hight result', they may gain new abilities (by rolling on the 'Higher result/ Threshold exceeded event table/ recovery table' and getting the 'new powers result'). =Psyker Trauma Recovery table=- Gain a new ability
- Gain a power level
- OK
- Loose an ability
I missed out 'loose a power level' on purpose. *Oops, influence of Tzeentch
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 15, 2004 11:36:16 GMT -5
Phillip... One thing by means of explanation/apology. I keep on harping on about it, but it means that sometimes my ability to parallel process, as it were, is reduced. As I'm currently typing I'm looking up locational information for plotting on a surface/groundwater oxygen isotope map of Britain so that I can relate it to my samples with the various calibrations that are used for human biophosphate... blah blah. Multi-tasking has its advantages and disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that I really prefer specific posts... Except the hypocrisy of where I can go off on random musings... Again, it's an explanation/apology. The idea I had for changing it to 'power level' (which would be a directly equal to Psyker class) would mean a person is 'tainted'. Exactly. It is not consistent with the 'fluff' on Draco, for one thing, and also ignores the very concept of the different between primary and secondary psykers. (The distinction between primary and secondary psykers does have an impact on 'Taint', but is separately described to the mechanics governing psykers and the abilities... Not explaining that right, but you can see what I mean if you go back to the original thread.) A psyker is not 'tainted' because of their existence, but acquires 'taint' as a result of their actions. As it stands, the more somone 'channels' the more likely that they are to acquire 'taint', meaning the more that they can channel, meaning the more that they can channel... The only problem with this is that the more they channel, as it stands, they build up a 'resistance' to Taint. It was for this reason that 'borrowing' the concept of Paradox and Paradox Flaws was mentioned. Thus while you might get superficially more 'powerful', you're constantly paying some form of price as you change both physically and mentally... The outgrowth of this is that if you don't acquire "Taint" and you constantly channel below your threshold or use artificial means of channelling beyond it (i.e. force rods, etc.) then you're not going to acquire 'taint'. Of course, secondary psykers are initially subjected to 'taint' before they are Soul Bound, but that is more a matter of creation of the "Secondary Psyker" template than something which is going to overtly manifest in representing just how the psykers employ their abilities. As for multiplier, it was just an example of how it could work/ play out, and I was hoping you'd take it and run with it. Given the fact that I didn't like it when you mentioned it the last time, it does seem unlikely... Incidentally the reason that I mentioned the fact that you would probably 'prefer' the MtA rules for magic in representation of psykers was that it includes not only the concept of 'taint' (read: paradox), has abilities that are defined by 'class' rather than 'spell' (though this is just a categorisation thing), but also has ridiculously huge power multipliers... It is part of this reason that I personally include it as an option, e.g. "The Greater Path". It can easily be dropped, I originally though of tying it to 'Psyker class' as it would be elegant, but it can all be changed to fit GURPS if you really do not like it. To put it into terms, you are essentially arguing that the 'force' with which a pysker employs an ability is greater for a alpha than a beta. That's reasonable, although I don't think that it translates well over into a game. Rather what would work, and which hasn't been mentioned before, is the scaling Threshold and Recovery for gamma through alpha psykers. At present it is tacitly assumed (even stated) that they should have a Threshold equal to their Will. However, the 'points cost' for being a specific grade should include a scaled increased of Threshold (which is proportionately higher than Recovery). Not too dramatic, of course, since these can be increased later but still... This gets your 'multiplication' of power without actually multiplying power, i.e. a low grade psyker 'heals' 2 points while a high grade psyker can heal 50-gazillion! In this scheme, they are limited by the nature of the warp and the interaction between energy and the soul/mind/body of the other individual (i.e. standard healing ratio), but a higher psyker can more safely channel larger energies and for longer periods. They can also perform much 'bigger' spells (area affect, information) than lower psykers without paying the consequences. Of course, you couldn't go overboard with this otherwise they would be too powerful and would not suffer the consequences of their actions... The use of a Psyker power has a given effect such as healing (just like the regular healing spell in GURPS), and also increase 'statistic A' by a random amount of points I'm always wary of random amounts, but in this case it does have a power if the amount of 'Taint', and therefore increase to Threshold, is kept secret from the player. However, depending on the amount in question and the grade of the psyker (alpha, etc.) it might disproportionately bloat their abilities... Now, that 'bloating' is not necessarily a bad thing (mechanically, that is; in the game universe it is a real bad thing), but has to be handled carefully. More so the specific effects of varying levels of Taint beyond an increased to Threshold should be considered... And, once again, the idea of reducing Taint by taking on 'flaws' (i.e. the fine line between increased power and falling, as you yourself mentioned, to daemons or becoming Spawn)... And that's another thing, the idea of volitional service to Chaos. (This is something that was meant to be discussed with the 'numina', since many abilities are actually post-creation 'advancements' to the character in question and, therefore, more readily handled with continuous, but parallel, approach.) Hmmn... workeable, but again it dramatically increases - again, with the working presumption that current Threshold = Natural Threshold + Taint - Threshold, perhaps too fast. Linking it directly to the amount of mana channeled is potential, but it also means that you're going to have to have two different scales of 'Taint'... For example, channelling 3 'points' into a Light Healing of an indiviudal is in no way going to take the individual past their Threshold and, therefore, not going to suffer Calamity or Taint. If the indiviudal for some reason chooses to heal a great number of people and go beyond their Threshold, then they suffer both Calamity and Taint. This Taint, as you mention, could be randomly determined and is linked more to the over-use of psyker abilities. Put another way instead of slowly swimming, you begin to splash and bleed your emotions/blood for the sharks... So a psyker with a Threshold of, say, 15 heals 6 people and exceeds their Threshold and therefore undergoes Calamity (3d6+(3/5) rounded down). As a result of this, say, they gain 1d6 Taint (say a roll of 3). There new Threshold is 18, but 3 points derive from Taint. In a combat scenario the psyker utilises their abilities offensively/defensively and then, later, heals a couple of comrades. He realises that he has 'spent' 17 points, beyond his threshold and realises that his Threshold has increased by at least two points... They have become Tainted. Would the character continue to experiment and therefore push the boundaries, perhaps becoming more Tainted? Remember that Taint is free... it is also possible to increase Threshold/Recovery in the game through 'experience'. Effects of Taint... But what do the various 'levels' of Taint actually mean? What do those 3 points of Taint translate to both conceptually and mechanically? That's the question... As a representation of the 'darker' side of the warp they should be appropriately considered. In many ways being 'eaten by a daemon' (or becoming Chaos Spawn, as you mention) is the ultimate end of the scale, but there are obviously shades in between. But what levels are we talking about?
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 15, 2004 11:37:03 GMT -5
With the concept of the 'Paradox Flaws' (read: Taint Flaws) it is possible to step back from this precipice, but only through the adoption of nasty little quirks/disadvantages... Mutations, psychoses, etc. You become permanently changed... In this way 'Chaos Sorcerers' can devolve... (And, of course, there are still those individuals that are given their abilities as described in the 'fluff' without actually being 'psykers' in the first place...) Once 'statistic A' exceeds the character's willpower, something happens, the character may see an increase their ability (like having a good work out at the gym increase your physical fitness), or they may hear the whispers of Tzeentch (an influence by chaos)... Not keen on the random effect but rather prefer the continuum approach. At low levels (?) not a great deal happens, but at increasing levels then, yes, they begin to hear the whispering's of Chaos... Consider Janus Darke as an example of this, perhaps... He heard the whisperings of his mind, not Chaos, so perhaps he had become Tainted and took on a Taint Flaw instead (i.e. Voices, or whatever). 'Threshold exceeded event table' Erm, Calamity table? Kind of says it all... This is basically what I'm referring to as Taint. I'm unsure about randomly rolling on it since, conceptually at least, Taint already increases the effect of Calamity. It could be the complete inability to use any form a Psyker ability, and perhaps some serious debilitating migraine headaches. This is basically a reworking of the Calamity table into one 'thing'. I actually prefer, at present, the idea that your immediate actions have both short and long term consequences, both to yourself and those around you. note: you may wish to consider adding a separate 'recovery table' where the character could gain new abilities or suffer some horrible fate. This doesn't seem necessary. Recovery is, well, the recover of points expended towards your Threshold. All Psykers are at least Power Level one. This would be consistent with Psykers having a Warp Affinity (read: Magical Aptitude when spin-doctored) of at least 1. Power level is added to willpower to increase the threshold of the Psyker. Warp Affinity already adds to skill. Having it add to Threshold as well... Hmmn. I'm not sure, since I did suggest that the 'cost of being a psyker' (in terms of points) should include relative increases in Threshold. This may, however, be as simple as adding 10-20% (not sure which but will use 20% below) to the Threshold, though perhaps not counting Gamma since that's just silly. Thus: [/li][li]Delta Class: Threshold = Will+Taint, Recovery = ? [/li][li]Gamma: Threshold = (Will x 1.2)+Taint, Recovery=? [/li][li]Beta: Threshold = (Will x 1.4)+Taint, Recovery=? [/li][li]Alpha: Threshold = (Willx1.6)+Taint, Recovery=? You get power multiplication not in the 'force' of affect, but merely what you can do 'safely' (i.e. within Threshold). This incorporates the idea while working within the mechanics proposed. Power/ abilities can only be gained due to trauma/ stress of some kind, this is why Psyker usually manifest at puberty (level one, with one power). Power level or, more specifically, psyker class (Primary, Secondary) and psyker grade (alpha, beta, etc.) are determined at character creation or, as you say, puberty. The only way to gain a new power is to push abilities way to far, requiring a 'higher' result on the 'Threshold exceeded event table'. Nope, that I'm not going to go down... It again paints a negative picture, i.e. only the Tainted advance. Rather, individuals gifted in certain areas (telepathy, telekinesis) may develop abilities through tuition in those areas (see the original thread for information on the number of areas and the costs of 'opening them up'). If you don't have 'training' then developing an ability is possible, just difficult. Eisenhorn evidences this... Development of psyker abilities is a process based upon self-knowledge and knowledge of your abilities, i.e. to create a 'fireball' you need to know how to 'shape fire' first. But I dislike the idea that you must push past your Threshold, develop Taint, etc., all to develop the ability to 'shape fire' or create a 'fireball'. Again, negative imagery. When the Psyker is recovering from the 'hight result', they may gain new abilities (by rolling on the 'Higher result/ Threshold exceeded event table/ recovery table'... Too convoluted and requiring too many tables. This is not WFRP or Rolemaster...
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Post by Philip on Sept 15, 2004 12:16:12 GMT -5
Oops Tzeentch has been at work, 'The idea I had for changing it to 'power level' (which would be a directly equal to Psyker class) would mean a person is 'tainted'. As I wrote the mechanics I realised it had to be changed, as the mechanic suggested that is wasn't negative in any way, and taint seemed inappropriate.' Should be; The idea I had for changing it to 'power level' (which would be a directly equal to Psyker class) would mean a person is not 'tainted'. As I wrote the mechanics I realised it had to be changed, as the mechanic suggested that is wasn't negative in any way, and taint seemed inappropriate. Apologies… AddedErm, Calamity table? Kind of says it all... This is basically what I'm referring to as Taint. I'm unsure about randomly rolling on it since, conceptually at least, Taint already increases the effect of Calamity. The ‘Threshold exceeded event table’ has both positive and negative effects, and is not purely ‘taint’ based, and isn’t always a ‘calamity’. =Threshold exceeded event table=- Lower range of results: gain Power levels*, no ill effects
- Medium range of results: fatigued, gain fatigue points.
- Higher range of results: gain ability (subdivides higher range, allow possible expansion into other fields of Psyker abilities)
- Extreme range of results: A real ‘calamity’ (subdivide into all kinds of nasty results)
*My version of ‘power level’ relating to the system mechanics I laid out. Looking at this ‘Threshold exceeded event table’ we can see that a Psyker who pushes it gets rewarded with greater power, however if they push too hard they become fatigued. If a Psyker can push past this ‘pain threshold’ they can get into an area where they can gain new abilities, but it is costing them dearly and making them vulnerable in game. Finally, if a Psyker pushes too hard to gain abilities (and the random amount a ‘statistic A’ is high rolling they could end up in a world of hurt. ‘Threshold exceeded event table’ is just a simplified way to obtain powers, to learn abilities, and has built in gambles. = MltiplierThis is why the multiplier worked well, as if a mega powerful fire ball was cast, worth 6D6 of damage, then there would also be 6D6 added to ‘statistic A’. As any role player knows the chances of six sixes coming up is very remote, and the roll will average out to around the 21 mark (no where near maximum 36). The same goes for damage. However with a ‘multiplier’ not only is it quicker to calculate as it only uses one dice and the six times table, but there is a real chance that you could roll a six. =In practice=In practice, an Player could be in the unfortunate position of blasting out his ‘level 6’ fireball and roll a ‘1’ for damage (total 6) and a 6 for ‘statistic A’ gain (a whooping 36 points of the stuff). This is obviously very dangerous, the idea of getting anywhere near a Psykers threshold level would be very worrying for a player. It also means that the ‘power gain’ temptation of the ‘Threshold exceeded event table’ would be less appealing. A player could work out the maximum amount of ‘statistic A’ gain and if this doesn’t take them too high into the ‘Threshold exceeded event table’ with the maximum be ‘fatigue’, they may take the risk, hoping to get a ‘power level’ bonus. Most likely a player will bottle it and player safe, the temptation will be there always, but unless a damn good reason comes along in game, they aren’t going to touch it with a barge pole (in effect they are self limiting through fear of loosing their character). However if they bite the bullet and are prepared to sacrifice themselves to save their friends, they may get lucky and not land a ‘calamity’ but gain abilities and power (after luck like that I sure they would be even more protective of their character).
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 16, 2004 19:20:56 GMT -5
First off, multi-tasking at the moment. Currently third drafting/editing my sample biographies while simultaneously trying to summarise all my disparate data types so that I can get my darned results 'finished' by tomorrow. Methinks that one third of the PhD spent entirely on results and discussion is quite excessive... Hmmn, maybe not. The ‘Threshold exceeded event table’ has both positive and negative effects, and is not purely ‘taint’ based, and isn’t always a ‘calamity’. As does Calamity. I am worried, however. At present it seems that the benefits of Calamity in the 'lower range' are entirely positive. That is to say we are not only getting an increase in Threshold but we're also getting 'increases in power levels', although that is a very nebulous concept (see below, if I remember). Since we (well, I) are currently working on a random (low dice) increase to Taint upon pushing past Calamity (the actual degree of Calamity is irrelevant; in for a penny, etc.), perhaps it would be interesting to determine just what this does? You've previously mentioned the concept of 'Chaos influence' and this seems most appropriately to be related to Taint, so... And, again, Calamity is something that I see as an ephemeral (to the character anyway) thing. It's like putting a matchstick to magnesium: flashy, can have an extended effect but is otherwise over shortly. Taint is holding a firework in your hand as it blows up: something that is going to have permanent ramifications. Lower range of results... Very low level results, perhaps. Basically same as the Calamity Table posted above. I'm associating your power levels with a multiplication factor, which is not going to be included. Again, I see no need for it. Medium range of results... : fatigued, gain fatigue points. UMana replaces the fatigue system. While it is intriguing to have someone 'physically' exhausted, the fact that the Recovery is going to leave them out of it for a given period (likely days) more than replicates this without including a transitory physical fatigue... Higher range of results: gain ability (subdivides higher range, allow possible expansion into other fields of Psyker abilities) So you're suggesting that a high enough Calamity - and again, I'm not up for integrating Calamity and Taint - is 'strong' enough to open up a 'range' of techniques that were otherwise not selected at character generation? Hmmn... that seems interesting enough. *My version of ‘power level’ relating to the system mechanics I laid out. Let's not go there... really not that relevant and I've already outlined the fact that I find them unnecessary and since they are absent of a true system (i.e. they are relative) not particularly useful at this juncture. If a Psyker can push past this ‘pain threshold’ they can get into an area where they can gain new abilities... But they don't actually gain new abilities, just the potential. Having it otherwise is once again biasing psykers towards automatically 'reaching'... ‘Threshold exceeded event table’ is just a simplified way to obtain powers, to learn abilities, and has built in gambles. In that case, no. At least as you're trying to present it now. This is why the multiplier worked well, as if a mega powerful fire ball was cast, worth 6D6 of damage... Again, I'm not going to reinvent the system where it is unnecessary to do so, more so when I'm not overtly fond of the representation that it gives. Also, and once again, there is in what you continued to write the suggestion of 'mana channelled' = 'Taint gained'. Quite likely to be misinterpretation, but this is inescapable given the relative system that you're using.
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Post by zholud on Sept 17, 2004 9:56:46 GMT -5
Just several quick proposalsOn threshold – is not it better to set lower and upper thresholds, with upper clearly leading to taint, but necessary for really important stuff, e.g. starting demon-bonding. The lower limit is just average spells which may lead to calamity… And I guess in order to make discussion more 40k-ish it is good to see actual description of taint and calamity in the fluff and how it fits to the system.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 17, 2004 18:39:04 GMT -5
Well, that's just dependent on the cost of the ability in question. Threshold as defined here relates more to the individual rather than a generic, cross-psyker thing. It would be strange to say that "10 points" was the lower threshold and "40 points" the upper threshold, more so when you consider the different classes. Oh god no... I can think of little worse! Feel free to add in where possible, but remember that the point is to help construct rather than merely add a swathe of unnecessary information because, well, it can be done. Suggestions of 'fluff' should come with suggestions of tempered alterations that do not predicate a specific interpretation (see above).
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Post by zholud on Sept 21, 2004 3:44:18 GMT -5
Well, that's just dependent on the cost of the ability in question. Threshold as defined here relates more to the individual rather than a generic, cross-psyker thing. My point is that there are actions that are extremely unlikely to cause taint (e.g. using word/order power), may cause taint (some dealing with warp creatures, divination and prescience), and must cause taint (asking help from dark gods, creation of demonhost). I propose to have it as several different thresholds, in spite the mechanics can be different. Oh god no... I can think of little worse! I disagree with it, even w/ smiley. We have not to create 40k-verse from scrap but rather holistic approach of trying to give the real underlying stuff for official fluff descriptions. I guess Eisenhorn can be a good start.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 21, 2004 7:36:44 GMT -5
As with Phillip, it would seem that you are confusing the concept of narrative and system... It's shades of grey, admittedly, but the implication that you "Roll 1d8: 1-2 Possessed by daemon of Nurgle; 3-4 Possessed by daemon of Tzeentch; 5-6 Possessed by daemon of Slaanesh..." etc. That is something I personally avoid. I propose to have it as several different thresholds, in spite the mechanics can be different. Narrative vs. mechanics. You're talking about narrative, for the most part, but throw in some aspect of mechanics to confuse the situation. We have not to create 40k-verse from scrap but rather holistic approach of trying to give the real underlying stuff for official fluff descriptions. LOL. Why are people thinking that throwing my arguments/statements is going to sway me? I've already got general idea, but open this up to discussion for number of reasons... First and foremost, it moderates personal bias (i.e. I despise overt Lovecraft approach so tend to remove it, but it should be at least given lattitude in mechanics for subsequent interpretation). Secondly, and just as importantly, it states that the RP side of things is just as important as the wargame... I guess Eisenhorn can be a good start. Remember, Taint as described herein is a process of channelling of psychic energy... The more metaphysical concept of Taint is a parallel issue. Obviously. And an edit... So, while it is all very nice to just 'chat' about this how about we actually bring in numbers? God, that makes me sound like a rules lawyer but it's more a case of actually relating it to something is more useful, for me anyway. To reiterate some of the established concepts... Threshold defines a 'safe' limit to warp channelling (remembering that narratively there is technically no such thing as a 'safe limit') that when surpassed leads to immediate effects (calamity) but also 'Taint'. Following Phillip this 'taint' is random and unknown to the player, but has some positive effects (i.e. increases threshold) but also negative effects... It is these negative effects that should be given a framework. I've suggested a MtA-inspired "taint flaws", but that doesn't quite cut it... Any suggestions that are useful to this approach...? (And, again, the validity of the 'magic=psyker' is not up for discussion... )
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Post by zholud on Sept 21, 2004 10:18:17 GMT -5
As with Phillip, it would seem that you are confusing the concept of narrative and system... This is entirely likely because my experience as both player and master is too small. And for game system development it is inexistent. So, pardon, I just try to help. LOL. Why are people thinking that throwing my arguments/statements is going to sway me? I just like to use one’s arguments against him/her during the debate… maybe CELS as psychiatric will be able to name this illness and even cure me. Seriously, I just wonder how discussions strays from thus sayeth the fluff to GW material is ridiculous and back. I despise overt Lovecraft approach so tend to remove it, You’ll be surprised that I am not Lovecraft’s fan, I just think that in some areas it fits 40k-verse. Fits better than e.g. cyberpunk. in some areas…Remember, Taint as described herein is a process of channelling of psychic energy... Sorry, clear it to me – is it process or by-product of channelling of psychic energy? I guessed the latter. It’s like plant’s wastes – it exists as well as main production, but it is not the process/technology…
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 22, 2004 5:58:36 GMT -5
This is entirely likely because my experience as both player and master is too small. Best thing to do is start from the simple and move your way up the complexity scale. I should remember that more often, so thanks for reminder of sorts. The aim is, of course, where possible to keep things as close to the 'simple baseline' as possible... I just like to use one’s arguments against him/her during the debate… maybe CELS as psychiatric will be able to name this illness and even cure me. <snicker> I doubt it. Your doomed. Using my own arguments against me doesn't quite work since the fact that I used them means that I'm working with the premise in the first place. The 'fluff' is always in my mind when working with an RPG system, hence the reason that despite obvious conceptual difficulties that I used 'magic' instead of 'psionics'... erm, at least this time around. It just suits the 'fluff' better, although obviously challenges individual interpretation (including my original one) since, self-evidently, psyker abilities must equal psionics... Seriously, I just wonder how discussions strays from thus sayeth the fluff to GW material is ridiculous and back. It's always going to do that based on personal interpretation. Your entire Navigator discussion is an example of where your own interpretation leaves the 'fluff', where other people introduce things that they think are cool (i.e. banks for zygotes/gametes), the removal of the navigator from a 'glass bubble', etc. You’ll be surprised that I am not Lovecraft’s fan, I just think that in some areas it fits 40k-verse. Fits better than e.g. cyberpunk. in some areas… Well, a fair enough point. The assumption here, though, seems to be "warp=Lovecraft" and I don't strictly agree and, indeed, never will. It's got a greater dominance there, but Lovecraft is a very broad brush which many people paint the entire universe with. Sorry, clear it to me – is it process or by-product of channelling of psychic energy? I guessed the latter. Erm, well as described above it is the result of channelling too much energy. A mechanic to represent the fact that while you can use the warp it is still partially corrupted. (The corruption increasing as a function of locality. This is the "Mana Zone" as GURPS calls it, but one could readily term it "Daemon Ground" or something like that...) It does not reflect the direct interaction and attention of 'daemons', which is more a product of narrative or depending on the alterations to the Calamity chart... This, for me, is one of those things best left to narrative. (Indeed, the generic 'taint' might be thought of as representative of Chaos Undivided, while specific attention is the province of the most appropriate Ruinous Power...) Ultimately, getting back to simplicity, perhaps a simple mechanic like... erm... Once Taint > Will something bad happens? Chaos portal or something or... erm, something.
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