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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 13, 2004 10:00:52 GMT -5
One thing that has come up repeatedly in both this board and others - more particularly by zholud, who loves his Lovecraftian/nihilistic approach! - is quantifying the concept of 'taint'. This is something that I've always left to the GMs consideration since it ultimately relates to their narrative... It is, however, always useful to have some broad guidelines with specific activities potentially generating more or less 'taint' than others. The effects of the taint are themselves up for grabs, but superficially relate to 'insanity' or 'mutation'... (Or, indeed, integrate Phillip's "Cork psyker" hypothesis...) So, with as little relativism as possible (i.e. make specific suggestions and do not go, "Well, in my interpretation...) does anyone have any suggestions in this regard? If you can, try to incorporate a system... I'll probably be able to put it into my terms and, after all, my terms are not strictly the terms of the project! Thoughts?
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Post by Philip on Sept 14, 2004 8:58:49 GMT -5
=Taint of the warp=As I said in the other thread, as a GURPS set-up most of you current rules are OK. As you are using the ‘unlimited mana’ rules, perhaps you could link ‘taint’ directly to mana use (as I know you like minimum bookkeeping ) What if mana expenditure = taint. It would be easy to link this in with the ‘calamity’ table that is part of the ‘unlimited mana’ rules. Looking at the rules change ‘mana’ to ‘taint’ and have a custom calamity (possession/ influence) table and you’ve got it made. Hardly any changes at all! The only real difference is that ‘taint’ can’t be removed by natural recovery, it has to be removed by force of will (meditation?). However a person could become ‘tainted’ before they get the chance to ‘meditate’: so the effects of a ‘calamity roll’ is applied before any meditation rolls. Chaos influence The calamity table could include ‘chaos influence’ and this would increase their ‘threshold’ but reduce the effects of meditation in some way. If ‘calamities’ were linked to the ‘total taint’, having a higher threshold would encourage a Psyker to use greater power, and at the same time invite greater disaster if his/ her threshold is exceeded. The difference between a Powerful Psyker using ‘taint’ and a naturally powerful Psyker would be that the natural can dump taint quicker.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 14, 2004 10:36:15 GMT -5
As I said in the other thread, as a GURPS set-up most of you current rules are OK. Gotta love the enthusiasm... As you are using the ‘unlimited mana’ rules, perhaps you could link ‘taint’ directly to mana use (as I know you like minimum bookkeeping ) Yes, but I also work on the principle that it is not strictly the channelling of energy that is 'tainting' but rather the nature of that energy... and even the 'fluff' indicates that this is the case. Thus the idea that you're "channelling daemons" or that the energy is inherently 'bad' doesn't work. In the 'fluff' unless, of course, you wish to reinvent the 'fluff'. What if mana expenditure = taint. It would be easy to link this in with the ‘calamity’ table that is part of the ‘unlimited mana’ rules. First off, mana expenditure is never going to equate to taint. In so doing you're making far too many assumptions with regards to the process that, while consistent with your interpretation, is not consistent with the broad sweep of the 'fluff' with but one minor possibility. One would have to define the process and effect of taint before this could be done, in the broad and relative means that you prefer! At the low levels is it just a 'stain' on the soul? That 'green tarnish' mentioned in Inquisitor/Draco? This would be a rather readily accessible level... At higher levels you begin to become more 'attractive'... voices in your head as the warp begins to affect your mind/biology... Higher still mutations might begin to occur... Higher still you get the attention of daemons, whispering to you... Higher still possession becomes a real problem... Bugger... I hate such general comments/scaling since it's relatively meaningless. Linking any concept of 'taint' to simple mana channelling doesn't strictly work, rather it should be a scaleable phenomenon ala Threshold/Recovery... perhaps. Indeed, are some people inherently more susceptible to it than others (in which case it would link to the strength of the will)... It is actually quite complex when you try and remain neutral in your interpretation as well as factor in the complexities of the imbedded system... Why include them? Merely that they increase the interest of what is otherwise a rather bland phenomenon as indicated in the 40k universe. Hardly any changes at all! <grin> Except that is not a neutral situation and conforms to your approach... Linking it to Calamity makes a form of sense, but there must be a relationship between 'mana' and 'taint' that is not simply 1:1 and, also, incorporates such things as Aspected Mana and Mana Levels. (Aspected Mana would include 'death magics' or your superficial 'negative warp energy', while Mana Levels represent thinning of the native boundary between the warp and the matterium.) The only real difference is that ‘taint’ can’t be removed by natural recovery, it has to be removed by force of will (meditation?). Nah. Taint should be something that you cannot remove. I'm reminded of Paradox Flaws in MtA and the rather 'cool' idea that they represent... Plus, 'taint' is meant to represent the darker aspects of psyker abilities and their interaction with the warp (without specific reference to possession, etc.). It's rather pathetic if you can meditate them away, moreso when it would become horrendously obvious that people would then suggest intervention by the Emperor! Put another way it would be like the following tongue-in-cheek reference to the condemnation of a witch: "She turned me into a newt..." <receives pointed stares> "Erm... I got better!" The calamity table could include ‘chaos influence’ and this would increase their ‘threshold’ but reduce the effects of meditation in some way. Now that is an interesting suggestion! (Just kidding with the smilie! ) Expenditure of mana beyond the Threshold should be a choice, but with 'freebie' increases resulting from Calamity the 'chaos influence' would be included. Sweets to the sweet, wasps to the sweet... as it were. See! Told you that magic, with a little thought, was more consistent than psionics and, further, didn't require a cludged ad hoc and entirely relative system! Perhaps it would be suitable at this juncture to work on a Calamity table that is both 'neutral' but also includes some of the more negative aspects that you are so fond of? The difference between a Powerful Psyker using ‘taint’ and a naturally powerful Psyker would be that the natural can dump taint quicker. You will not believe how much I'm against 'taint' being 'dumped'. Talk about devaluing the 'horror' part of the situation... I'm going to double post with the calamity table as it stands in the original UMana article so that it is in the thread for consideration...
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 14, 2004 11:16:00 GMT -5
From Unlimited Mana by S. John Ross the following "Calamity Table" has been copied to facilitate discussion with regards to the concept of 'taint'. It may naturally feedback into the discussion of the current "GURPS psykers" (currently a locked thread since it is still in process, i.e. total integration of UMana and the considerations of impact to the universe), but we'll come to that when we can. Remember that the goal here is to create as much of a 'neutral' system as possible without going down the road that a psyker lighting a cigarette with his pyrokinetic abilities is stripping a daemon of his left finger and is going to pay! oh yes he's going to pay!!!!! (Sorry Phillip, couldn't resist... ) Balanced against this is the fact that Calamity and the related Taint concept are actually meant to be bad things. Thus, to reiterate simply: psyker channelling is not necessarily bad; psyker acquiring Calamity and/or Taint is bad... Speaking of which... In relation to the 'scaling of taint' (and again, it cannot be removed except under, erm, exceptional circumstances!) is the following concept: a 1:1 ratio should not be employed since the effects of Taint should be cumulative with Calamity. That is to say, a Tainted individual is more likely to suffer severe Calamity upon channelling past their Threshold than a 'virginal' psyker without Taint. You pays your money and you makes your bets... Incidentally, I note that many of the calamities are similar to the 'problems' of being a psyker associated with your interpretation, Phillip. Interesting that, at least in the creation of a 'neutral' approach rather than an intepretation-intensive one! Anyway, the Calamity Table. 3d+Excess/5 | Description | 3-4 | Nothing bad happens and the psyker gets (1d6*5) points of Recovery | 5-9 | Nothing happens. This time. | 10 | The psykers skin and clothing crawl with strange energies, spark, or other visual effects for 3d minutes, and his eyes glow bright, making Stealth impossible and frightening small animals and many 'mundanes' | 11 | The psyker is struck with violent headaches that prevent any other action other than suffering (treat as physical stun) which last 3d turns (or a number of minutes equal to the cost of the ability that triggered the calamity, if a HT roll is failed - minimum 5 minutes). Result 10 also applies. | 12 | The psyker becomes horribly nauseous and weak, taking a -4 to DX, IQ and ST and relevant skills. This lasts a number of hours equal to the cost of the spell (minimum 2), after which the psyker must make a HT-4 roll every hour to get over the sickness. | 13 | The psyker is cursed with nightmares for 3d days (plus a number of days equal to the spell cost). After the first night, the mage is at -2 DX, IQ and ST and appropriate skills. The penalties last until the psyker gets a normal night's sleep. | 14 | Any failed casting roll that the psyker makes is treated as a critical failure. This lasts for 1d+1 weeks. | 15 | The psyker's mind is bent. The GM should assign one debilitating (15-point) mental disadvantage by fiat. It takes effect immediately, and lasts 1 day. Each day thereafter, the psyker may make a Will roll to shake it off. If the ability cost was higher than 25, the disadvantage lasts for (ability cost/25) days, rounded up. | 16 | The psyker has weakened the binding forces around him. His Threshold for the next 1d weeks is reduced by 2d+5. The psyker is aware of the drop, but not it's severity! Result 10 also applies. | 17 | The psyker gains a 5-point disadvantage. After 3d days have passed, the psyker has the option of buying it off (it will simply fade away). If the psyker does not wish to, or doesn't have the points, then it becomes permanent. Any disadvantage is legal; the mage can get ugly, go insane, and so on. | 18 | The psyker's Threshold is reduced by 4d+(ability cost); the change lasts 1d months, after which the Threshold "heals" back to normal at a rate of 1 point per day. Threshold cannot be reduced below zero. In addition the psyker's ability to 'cast' will be at a -3 penalty for 2d weeks. Result 10 also applied. | 19 | As per 17 but the disadvantage is worth 10 or 15 points (50/50 chance of either). | 20 | The mage is aged 2d+13 years, or a number of years equal to the energy cost of the triggering ability, whichever is worse! | 21 | Roll again (same modifier) but the result affects a companion of the psyker. | 22 | The psyker gains multiple disadvantages worth a total of (2d*5) points, or a number of points equal to the cost of the ability, whichever is worse. These disadvantages are permanent. | 23 | The psyker permanently loses the ability to practice a single ability. It remains 'known' but cannot be cast. The psyker must make a Will-6 roll and if successful may select which ability 'dies'; if unsuccessful it is randomly selected. | 24 | The psyker loses (1d*5) points of advantages permanently, or has an attribute lowered. | 25 | The psyker becomes a wandering "Warp Scar"! Psyker abilities cost double within 2d+3 mile radius of the psyker, and Recovery is halted in the same area. The duration, in days, equals the cost of the errant ability, plus one. Result 10 applies for the entire duration. | 26 | The psyker's skill at his abilities is reduced by 3d+5, or by a number equal to the cost of the ability, whichever is worse. The psyker must make a Will roll; if successful recovery of this is at 1 point per day, otherwise it is 1 point per week. | 27 | A plague or curse (locusts, storms, etc.) descends on the region, lasting for 3d weeks. No one will be able to trace this to the psyker (-20 to divination attempts on this subject) but the psyker will know. | 28 | The ability propogates out of control. Harmful Regular or Area spells will affect everybody and everything nearby, allies and enemies alike. Beneficial spells will do likewise, but will "go over the top" and cause dangerous side affects (a healing spell might raise all the local dead, creating a horde of restless zombies out for revenge!). Information abilities will overload the mages mind (Fright Check -20); Missile abilities will seem normal to the psyker, but have so much energy that they drill through the target and through everything else for miles beyond, and so forth. | 29 | The psyker permanently loses the ability to 'cast', but not the knowledge. The ability which caused this calamity will fail unless a Will roll is made by the psyker. The roll is at a penalty equal to 1/10 the ability cost (round in favour of the psyker), and at a bonus equal to the Psyker Aptitude of the psyker. | 30-39 | As per 29, and something happens to the region the psyker is in. If the result on this table was an even number, psyker abilities themselves have changed (the region becomes aspected, certain abilities function erratically). If the result was odd, the change is in the physical world - the weather, the birth rate, crops, or something else. Sometimes the result is good, sometimes bad, sometimes just strange - determining the nature of the result randomly, or by fiat, or whatever is deemed the most interesting by the GM. The duration of the change is equal to the cost of the ability, in days, but some very dramatic effects last only a moment, and some subtle ones last indefinitely. | 40+ | As per 30-39 but global change occurs! In addition the psyker must make a HT-6 roll. If this roll is failed, the psyker is consumed in a backlash of magical energy, and explodes. The explosion does concussion/burning damage like a grenade doing the psykers (Will+Psyker Aptitude)d of damage. If the HT-6 roll is made the backlash is less dramatic, the wizard takes 2d of internal burning damage. |
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Post by Philip on Sept 14, 2004 11:21:16 GMT -5
Dumping taint isn’t that bad if you think about how it would plays out. Chaos is about temptation, and the idea I had was to give people freedom (as ASP likes) but to strongly tempt them to Chaos.
In the idea I outlined, taint can be dumped but ‘chaos influence’ affects the rate of dumping. If a person uses their Psyker powers a lot during the climatic end of an adventure, they may not have time to ‘meditate’ to get rid of the accumulated taint. As the chaos influence pushes their threshold ever higher, the stakes in their ‘gamble’ by Psyker powers increases.
If their super high threshold is then exceeded by some means, the resulting ‘calamity’ may be extreme…
As a development to the idea, maybe the Psyker powers have a random amount of ‘taint’ that they add.
Say using a specific power adds 1d6 taint, and on a roll of 6, adds another 1d6 of taint, and so on.
This would mean that as a player gets near to their characters threshold, they start to get a bit jumpy, or, maybe they think ‘a little bit of chaos influence will get the job done’.
Perhaps ‘taint’ as I outlined is the wrong word, perhaps it should be ‘corruption’ or ‘temptation’.
Note on calamites; mutations, possessions, character change is all down to calamities.
[edit] Looking at the table to things spring to mind, Chaos would try and increase the Psykers powers, and would ‘bless’ them with chaos rewards.
It may be more accurate to see the ‘calamity table’ as the ‘chaos rewards table’. The chaos rewards table is only a ‘calamity’ if you do not want those rewards.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 14, 2004 11:25:34 GMT -5
As can be seen, some of those effects (the pyrotechnic ones, for example) are consistent with the 'fluff' as low-level Calamity. (E.g. glowing eyes and 'psyker' ice from the Ragnar and Eisenhorn books, respectively.) The temporary disadvantages are likewise consistent, representing the mercurial influence of the warp... Some of the higher representations are, however, a bit "too magical" and would need to be replaced with more specific "Chaos influence" affects...? Once again I'm also intrigued by the comment that Threshold actually increases in some instances, though this might be more appropriately related to Taint, which is separate from Calamity. Returning to the concept of Taint and the aforementioned similarity to Paradox of Mage the Ascension (of which there is a GURPS translation), there is the idea that Taint gradually accumulates (consistent) until things go haywire... basically the psyker is doing the equivalent of putting chum in the 'warp ocean' and attracting the daemons (actually Paradox spirits, but also consistent). Something similar to the idea of 'removing Taint' that you mentioned before was the removal of Paradox except rather than through 'meditation' (ick) this is done by taking on Paradox Flaws or, in this instance, Taint Flaws/disadvantages. These are things that generate the permanent "magical" effects associated with Chaos mutation or influence... fires burning blue around the psyker (I'm obviously reminded of Warlock here and, of course, the continuum of interpretation between Warlock and Warlock II: Armageddon! ), milk going sour... constant flashes of energy... or whatever. I can try and post the basic gist of Paradox Flaws if that would be useful, but it still requires that a mechanic be set up by which "Taint" is acquired. Once more I would strongly suggest that the idea that Taint=Mana is too biased towards a negative approach to psykers. Rather, some 'effect' (such as Calamity occurring) results in the accumulation of Taint (e.g. you've experienced Calamity once, therefore you've got 1 Taint?). Furthermore, as mentioned above, Taint also positively modifies the Calamity roll on a 1/+1 basis... thus the higher the Taint, the worse the Calamity... (If the Paradox Flaw mechanic is adopted, you select a Taint Flaw (i.e. mutations as well as more esoteric disadvantages) and you remove the Calamity modifier resulting from Taint... Of course, I'm really keen to include the modifier to Threshold resulting from Taint, but a 1:1 increase again doesn't work... Or does it?) Now this is what I call more designing... getting things to work with reference to something other than itself!
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 14, 2004 11:30:43 GMT -5
Chaos is about temptation, and the idea I had was to give people freedom (as ASP likes) but to strongly tempt them to Chaos. Kinda. The power is tempting, not necessarily the object. That's why I liked the idea that Threshold/Recovery could increase as a result of Calamity/Taint... but again there should be a spectrum of activity. As the chaos influence pushes their threshold ever higher, the stakes in their ‘gamble’ by Psyker powers increases. Not the "Paradox Flaw" mechanic. If their super high threshold is then exceeded by some means, the resulting ‘calamity’ may be extreme… That seems to be creating a relative system as an ad hoc addition. Have you a specific suggestion? As a development to the idea, maybe the Psyker powers have a random amount of ‘taint’ that they add. Randomness might seem appropriate, but depends on whether the idea that Taint as a 1/+1 addition to Calamity (i.e. the more tainted, the more screwed you are when you go too far) gets... Again, though, there is the tension between Taint as a negative thing and Taint as positively affecting your ability to channel energy (which again I do like). As a note on calamites; mutations, possessions, character change is all down to calamities. As noted elsewhere, Possession should not be a function of Calamity, e.g. something that should be randomly rolled. That way lies the munchkin assumptions of WFRP...
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Post by Philip on Sept 14, 2004 11:46:54 GMT -5
Right mechanics… Dump the term ‘mana’ and the idea of ‘casting spells’… Instead say that using Psyker powers increases the ease with which the chaos can influence the Psyker. This influence is referred to as ‘Chaos Influence’ or CI and is measured in points (much like HP, but in reverse) =Chaos Influence=Every time a Psyker uses a Psyker Power, it adds to their ‘Chaos Influence’ points. So using the Healing Psyker Power adds 1D6 to ‘Chaos Influence’. This is accumulative, so every time the Power is used another 1D6 is added to ‘Chaos Influence’ =Theshold=The ‘threshold’ is the maximum amount of chaos influence a person can contain before it starts to affect them in a negative (or positive depending on your point of view ) way. The threshold level is set to a person’s willpower. Once the number of CI points exceeds the threshold level, you have a ‘threshold breach’. =Threshold breach=If the threshold is breached, chaos rewards the Psyker (in a way only chaos can ) with a single roll on the ‘Chaos rewards table’. =Chaos Rewards=The amount of current ‘chaos influence’ is added to the ‘chaos reward table’ roll. - Lower results on the table increase ‘threshold’ which allows greater ‘spell’ use but ups the stakes (this increase in threshold may be an increase in willpower, meaning the Psyker is becoming fanatical).
- Medium results on the table add minor mutations.
- Higher results on the table mean ‘possession’ or turning into a chaos spawn.
=Fighting back=Meditation will dump 1D6 of Chaos Influence points per day (meditation? Perhaps self-flagellation or some kind of ‘atonement’?). Increases in threshold (willpower) can not be decreased. [edit] =Threshold Increase/ Taint=The Chaos powers can increase a Psykers threshold level by adding ‘taint’. This is the taint of Chaos… Willpower + Taint = Threshold level. So, Willpower:12 + Taint:6 = Threshold: 18 Threshold acts as willpower in all respects (?). Taint could be used as a ‘booster’ to Psyker powers (like the dark side in Starwars?). Perhaps a Taint of ‘6’ acts as +6 modifier to Psyker powers? =Power levels=Psyker power have power levels, each level carries bigger risks. Once a particular Psyker Power is learnt, any power level can be used (obviously those with low threshold wouldn’t like to use the higher powers, as the warp will consume them). (Note: as multiple dice rolls start to average each other out, I’ve gone for a ‘multiplier’ approach). - Power 1: Healing/ time:1turn
Heal 1D6 hit points, adds 1D6 ‘Chaos Influence points’.
- Power 2: Healing/ time:1turn
Heal 1D6x2 hit points, adds 1D6x2 ‘Chaos Influence points’.
- Power 3: Healing/ time:1turn
Heal 1D6x3 hit points, adds 1D6x3 ‘Chaos Influence points’.
A Psyker ‘Mind Blast’ ability would run along similar lines, say 1D6 damage, adds 1D6 ‘Chaos Influence points’.
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Post by Destecado on Sept 14, 2004 12:02:35 GMT -5
Taint is not something that only affects psychers. It should therefore not only be represented by the channeling of Mana. Kage, I do like your reference to MtA (Mage the Ascension), but rather than being like scourge or paradox, I see the taint as more related to the concept of Jhor.
Jhor or death taint accumulates from the overuse of the more destructive forms of entropy magics. Unlike scourge which can be meditated away (up to certain levels) Jhor takes a much greater effort to get rid of. Such is the lot of psychers who travel the path of destruction.
As for normal humans, perhaps the effects of taint would be similar to radiation. An area or object can be tainted by chaos. Individuals that possess a tainted object or remain in a tainted location will over time begin to accumulate the taint themselves.
This "exposure" can be quntified by determining the level of taint that the object posses and the duration of time necessary to begin to taint other objects or individuals in its pressence.
Example:
In the Lord of the Rings, the one ring bends Golum to its will almost immediately, while Bilbo (and Frodo) exhibit a high level of resistance to its power (taint).
This is not to say that an individual will automatically be effected by the taint. There would be some individuals who would be highly suseptible, while there are others that would have a greater resistance to taint.
A character should make a resisted role based on a stat such as "willpower" to resist the taint. The difficulty of the roll would be determined by the strength of the taint in the object or location that is affecting the individual.
The difficulty of the role will also increase with the length of tme that a player remains near the tained object or area.
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Post by zholud on Sept 14, 2004 14:25:43 GMT -5
Here follows some stuff from Call of Cthulhu game, which cannot be used directly in representation of a taint, but can help to develop own ideas. Sanity & Insanity In daring the perils of the Cthulhu mythos, player-characters risk their very souls. But even an insane investigator can lead the way to light. Most of those who suffer from serious mental illness have done so from an early age, and will be dealing with the illness for their entire lives. Call of Cthulhu player-characters typically starts sane and mentally competent. In the course of play, however, they confront knowledge and entities of alien horror and terrifying implication. Such experiences shake and shatter belief in the normal world. Sanity in the game is modeled after the behavior of protagonists in H.P. Lovecraft's fiction, who more than a few times faint or go mad. The characteristic SAN (Sanity) is the game's register of investigator flexibility and resilience to emotional trauma. Those characters who start with high SAN find it easier to rationalize traumatic events or to repress horrific memories. Those with lower SAN are mentally fragile and more susceptible to emotional upset. Though other gruesome, comparatively ordinary sights and events also cause emotional disturbance, center stage in the game belongs to the Cthulhu Mythos. In an unnerving or horrifying play situation, the keeper will test the resiliency and emotional strength of the player-characters. He does this by calling for Sanity rolls. A success is a D100 roll equal to or less than the current Sanity points. An unsuccessful Sanity roll always costs the character Sanity points. A successful roll costs no points or relatively few. See the nearby box for examples of costs. Insanity in a character is triggered when too many Sanity points are lost in too short a time, causing temporary insanity or indefinite insanity, defined later in this chapter. To remain active in the game the character's insanity must be of a sort that can be effectively roleplayed. If time is of the essence, the keeper may roll on one of the temporary insanity tables, but as a matter of course the keeper should choose the insanity to match the situation which prompted it, and attempt to characterize the insanity in concert with the player and the investigator. An insane character may return to sanity after a few game rounds, or may need months to recover. If Sanity points reach zero, the character needs lengthy hospitalization, and he or she probably will not return to play. A character may regain Sanity points, and even increase his or her maximum Sanity points if POW increases. An increase in the Cthulhu Mythos skill always lowers the character's maximum Sanity points by the same amount. How the Mythos Causes Insanity War, abuse, or any other strong personal experience can scar feelings. To emphasize certain ideas he had concerning fear, the unknown, and humanity's lowly place in the scheme of things, Lovecraft posited new terrors for us. He suggested that what we believe to be the immutable laws of time and space are valid only locally, and only partly are true. Beyond our ken are infinities where greater realities hold sway. There are small and great alien powers and races who are sometimes actively hostile. Some encroach on our world. The real universe, Mythos authors suggest, is one of irrational event, unholy fury, endless struggle, and relentless anarchy. Human insanity opens a window onto this terrible realm. Through such an opening we can glimpse the dark and bloody truth at the heart of everything. Such sweeping cosmic visions are rare and climactic moments in the game. Sanity is ordinarily lost in a few specific ways. . 1) Knowledge is dangerous. The Cthulhu Mythos skill represents knowledge of the true universe. No amount of psychotherapy or rest can remove the danger of self-transformation in such knowledge. As Cthulhu Mythos increases, maximum Sanity lowers and limits current Sanity. In consequence, failed Sanity rolls become more frequent, and current Sanity drops. 2) Mythos magic is the physics of the true universe. In casting Mythos spells, characters perform visualizations of the unimaginable, and their minds must follow alien ways of thought. These wound the mind. Such traumas are ones for which the casters volunteered, it is true, but they are shocks all the same. Examples of Sanity Point Costs Sanity lost* unnerving or horrifying situation 0/1 D2 surprised to find mangled animal carcass 0/1 D3 surprised to find corpse 0/1 D3 surprised to find body part 0/1D4 see a stream flow with blood 1/1D4+1 find mangled human corpse 0/1D6 awake trapped in a coffin 0/1 D6 witness a friend's violent death 0/1 D6 see a ghoul 1/1D6+1 meet someone you know to be dead 0/1D10 undergo severe torture 1/1D10 see a corpse rise from its grave 2/2D10+1 see gigantic severed head fall from sky 1D10/1D100 see Great Cthulhu * successful roll cost /failed roll cost 3) Mythos tomes add to the Cthulhu Mythos skill, and teach Mythos spells. When studying and comprehending Mythos books, all that we know as true becomes like shadow. The burning power of a greater and more horrible reality seizes the soul. Whether we try to retreat from the experience or hunger greedily for more of it, we thereby de-emphasize and lose confidence in what we once believed, and are more taken up by the encompassing truth of the Cthulhu Mythos. 4) Nearly all creatures and entities of the Mythos cost Sanity points to encounter. Aliens are intrinsically discomforting and repelling. We never lose awareness of their slimy, stinking otherness, which Lovecraft often characterizes as obscene or blasphemous. This instinctive reaction is part and parcel of every human being. Even losing Sanity does not erase this antipathy. 5) Non-Mythos shocks can also cost Sanity points. This includes witnessing untimely or violent death, experiencing personal mutilation, treachery, loss of social position, failure of love, and whatever else the keeper can devise as a challenge. In this category we also can lump our world's common supernatural events or agents, such as hauntings, zombies, vampires, werewolves, curses, etc. Using SAN; Current Sanity Points Use the investigator sheet to record SAN relationships. There are three kinds. 1) Characteristic SAN. It is equal to the character's POW x5. This number rarely changes. 2) Maximum Sanity points. This amount equals 99 minus present Cthulhu Mythos points. Maximum Sanity points may be more than, equal to, or less than characteristic SAN. Maximum Sanity is a cap amount, indicating the highest possible number of current Sanity points. This number occasionally changes. 3) Current Sanity points. This is the most important amount to keep track of. The following paragraphs discuss it. This number often changes. When investigators encounter a sanity-threatening situation, the keeper may ask for a Sanity roll. The players roll D100 for each of their characters. A success is a roll equal to or less than the investigator's current Sanity points. In published statistics and scenarios, Sanity loss rolls are shown as two numbers or rolls separated by a slash, as for instance 1/1D4+1. The number to the left of the slash is the amount of Sanity points lost if the Sanity roll succeeds. The die roll to the right of the slash is the number of Sanity points lost if the Sanity roll fails. Thus a successful roll means that the investigator loses no Sanity points or else a minimal amount. A failed Sanity roll always means that the investigator loses several or many Sanity points. The amount lost depends on the spell, book, entity, or situation actually encountered. Losing more than a few Sanity points at one time may cause an investigator to go insane, as described further below. If an investigator's current Sanity points drop to zero, he or she is permanently insane, and normally can no longer be played. GETTING USED TO AWFULNESS At some point, constant exposure to the same Mythos tome or to the same Mythos creature has no added effect. For instance, having read and comprehended a particular Mythos tome and taken the Sanity loss and added the points necessary to Cthulhu Mythos, an investigator can consult the book over and over without further penalty. Similarly, once an investigator has lost as many Sanity points for seeing a particular sort of monster as the maximum possible for the monster, he or she should not lose more Sanity points for a reasonable interval. "Reasonable interval" may be a game day, or a game week, or the duration of an adventure. The keeper decides. For instance, during a reasonable interval no investigator could lose more than 6 Sanity points for encountering deep ones (0/1D6 SAN), even though he or she saw a hundred of them. Still, we never truly get used to seeing alien obscenities. After a time, the horror of them will rise up freshly in any character. Neither does learning and casting spells ever become a normal thing to do. Every spell is discrete, and most are cast with malevolent intent. Every spell achieves an effect impossible in the normal world. The necessary recreation of horrible effect and alien mind-set always costs Sanity, even if the same spell is cast twenty times a day. Spellcasting is a bargain with darkness, and must be paid for.
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Post by zholud on Sept 14, 2004 14:28:40 GMT -5
Part two, too long for 1 post… Insanity & the Cthulhu Mythos Insanity stemming from non-Mythos causes yields no Cthulhu Mythos knowledge. But each time an investigator reels from Mythos-induced trauma, he or she learns more of the Mythos, and this is reflected in the arcane Cthulhu Mythos skill. The first instance of Mythos-related insanity always adds 5 points to Cthulhu Mythos. Further episodes of Mythos-induced insanity each add 1 point to the skill. Example: Harvey Walters finds a manuscript in Crowninshield Manor. After comprehending it, he has 3% Cthulhu Mythos skill, but lost no Sanity points. When he steps outside, Harvey sees a night gaunt fly overhead. He goes insane, his mind quailing before the unearthly manifestation. Since this is Harvey's first Mythos-related insanity, his player must add 5 percentiles to Harvey's Cthulhu Mythos skill, raising it to 8%. Harvey's maximum Sanity points drop to 91 (that is, 99 minus 8 Cthulhu Mythos). The emotional traumas of ordinary life, the fifth category, also can be gotten used to for a while. Later on, the "reasonable interval" passes for these events as well, and we experience the horror or terror anew. increasing Current Sanity Points Some keepers feel that the notion of relentless self-improvement conflicts with Lovecraft's dark vision, and do not allow it. Others cheerfully promote it, since it makes players happy, and since their investigators will continue to go insane regardless how many Sanity points they have. (Current Sanity points can never increase above maximum Sanity points, but they can increase above original SAN.) Here are ways to raise current Sanity points. BY KEEPER AWARD: at the end of a successful adventure, keepers routinely specify die rolls intended to increase investigator current Sanity. Keeper award rolls are the same for all participants, but are rolled individually by players for their investigators. Such rewards should be proportional to the danger the group faced. However, if the investigators were cowardly, brutal, or murderous, they deserve no reward. Keepers also may grant reward rolls for unusually good roleplaying. This should be done sparingly and perhaps in private if all are not to share. BY INCREASING POW: procedures exist in the Magic chapter for increasing investigator POW. This is a rare accomplishment, but if POW rises, so does the SAN characteristic, which always equals POW x5. Remember to check increases against maximum Sanity points. BY INCREASING A SKILL TO 90%: when an investigator attains 90% or more ability in a skill, he or she has mastered the skill. Add 2D6 points to current Sanity points to represent the discipline and self-esteem gained. Of all skills, only Cthulhu Mythos cannot be mastered. BY DEFEATING UNNATURAL ENTITIES: natural animals and human enemies might terrify, but they usually do not horrify. Victory in wrestling a bear yields no Sanity point reward. Capturing a deep one might. When an investigator defeats, dispels, or slaughters something strange and alien, as a wraith or a byakhee, his or her confidence naturally increases. The game reflects that as an increase in Sanity points. "Defeat" is necessarily vague. What were the goals of the monster? Did the investigators foil its intent? Did the investigators work purposefully toward the thing's defeat? Insane Insight: An Option At the keeper's option, a character who has just gone insane may have an insight into the situation or entity which provoked the insanity. The player needs to roll D100 and receive a result greater than the character's INT x5. The keeper should offer the insight promptly. Such a reward should not exceed the Sanity loss roll for encountering the thing. If several or many such things were defeated, then award the maximum points for encountering the thing: for example, the 1D6 roll for one shantak would increase to six points flat for victory over a group of them. Dealing with the Verge If an investigator has even one point of Sanity remaining, the player has firm control. The aesthetics of how the player chooses to present a nearly-mad investigator represents the essence of roleplaying. As the investigator weakens, evidence of the weakening should become apparent. Thus near-insanity calls for stronger roleplaying, not for less player control. Such an investigator should speak about his mental condition, so that the others understand the situation, and can act with due regard and sympathy. It is not good roleplaying to murmur "My guy's Sanity points are low." Such a statement is dull and makes nothing happen. But a player who can vividly describe his investigator's anxiety or terror, and relate how that affects the game, deserves applause. If an investigator has ten or fewer Sanity points, he or she certainly knows the situation is serious. In such straits in real life, most people would pull back from the action and perhaps put themselves in sanitariums. So should investigators. So, what about it?
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Post by Philip on Sept 14, 2004 15:34:03 GMT -5
Ah Call of Cthulhu (that takes me back, *digs up old copy, and blows of dust* 1986! That is a long time ago.)
I think insanity has its place in 40K, but I do think that Psyker induced ‘calamities’ or ‘Chaos Rewards’ should be handled separately.
In 40K, the populous is quite resilient, and they understand that aliens exist (less so in regard to daemons, and is probably where insanity comes into play). I do not think that it should play such a heavy part in 40K as it does in CoC, but it would be nice to have it included.
Problem is that CoC ‘insanity’ is really ‘shock’ in the real world. People do not become, say a schizophrenic due to trauma. Such mental illness is a fundamental imbalance in the brain (a person is born with it) and as such can’t be induced. However trauma can exacerbate metal illnesses.
Perhaps a ‘trauma/ shock counter’ of some kind, mainly used when dealing with fear inducing daemons? Going into shock would ‘immobilise’ a character for a short time, and they may become withdrawn and introverted after the encounter.
Shock/stress based mental illness include ‘clinical depression’, ‘catatonia’ or ‘paranoia’ etc. whereas born with mental illness includes ‘schizophrenia’, ‘Bi-polar’ or ‘borderline personality disorder’ etc.
Full blown insanity is far more complex than ‘oops I gone nuts’, and should be handled differently, ‘in born’ mental illnesses could be given as a chaos ‘reward’ by Tzeentch?
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 14, 2004 19:36:01 GMT -5
Those have always been terms that you've been disagreed with, but they are just terms. There is absolutely no difference in 'casting a spell' and 'using psionics' except that which is imposed by a certain 'flavour' of mechanics or that which is defined by narrative... Again I would say no. This is a blanket term which immediately predicates "use=bad". I'm not saying that there shouldn't be consequences, merely that having this as an automatic predication is overtly influenced towards a certain mal-imagery. At present this doesn't work... Why? Variation between primary and non-primary psykers without the addition of cludgy mechanics. Furthermore, I personally find it aesthically displeasing as well as suggesting non-conformance to the equally cludgey 'positive/negative' energy situation. (It's the 'fluff' and the 'fluff' influenced by the wargame that becomes part of the problem...) I'm unconvinced by the spin of "Chaos Influence" because, well, it revolves around negative imagery, not neutral. Seems that you may be cool with the design sequence, but are a poor spin doctor! (Though the whole CI thing is reminiscent of the 'rewards table' in StD... <shudder>) And, again, meditation as a means of removing the 'negative' influence of the 'bad thing' - CI, Taint, whatever - is horrendous. Sorry, there's no other word for it. If you can think of something and it goes away it just doesn't have the impact at all. Kind of reminds me of 'cyberpsychosis' in Cyberpunk 2020... it's really bad unless you sit on a couch and come to terms with your inner - psychotic, machine driven - self... This is the bit that I like, but it still seems - despite my constantly 'missing the point' - seems overtly biased towards a given interpretation. But it is defintely something that I want to include... It is not only a cool image, but actually suits the 'fluff'! Too my like Rollmaster (replace second 'l' with 'e' to get the real name of the game, if you missed that) where minor decisions are influenced by major dice rolls... Very little freedom and like rolling for 'career' in WFRP. This is actually covered in that little "Numina" section as well, out of interest. The one that you deemed needed to be removed... but essentially it covers the increase of powers resulting from worship of deities... That psykers could acquire this as well seems entirely reasonable. Another interesting suggestion... That's two! (Sorry ) I was wary of giving a generic threshold out, and this seems like a reasonable suggestion. Furthermore, it means that - as elsewhere - Threshold of non-chaotic influenced races would be comensurately higher but be limited in 'rapid power raises'... Thank you for that. If you hadn't have performed that calculation I think that I might have had to actually use a calculator... No. By your own implications, and quite reasonably, Taint should act as a negative modifier to Will(power). Unnecessary. They're already getting the freebie in the increase to Threshold which, increasingly, is a darned good mechanic. Negative approach one more and, also, unnecessary. This is where "Psyker Aptitude" and 'numina' powers would be negotiated, the latter automatically working along with Taint. Again, not needed... And one of the reasons that I was wary of including it... as Phillip's interesting suggestion above shows, however, it does have its place... As you can remember from our previous discussions about the Throne of Solomon, my knowledge of the WizzKids/WW product range is limited by the fact that the only one that I like is MtA... The others have always struck me as 'munckin' in the games that I have been unfortunate enough to play. This is smacking off aspected mana, kinda... Seems like a Mana Level thing, does it not? It's another reason that I liked the differing approaches of Mana and Sanctity... only problem is that it is cludgy when you get down to the extreme values... As inferred from the above Calamity table... but when it comes down to it, and more important, it is a part of the 'fluff'. So, yes... A simple enough mechanic to integrate, though dependent on the object. A 'bespelled' artefact would have a Taint equal to the 'mana' used in creating it (i.e. the spell), while a sentient artefact would have one equal to it's own Will... Or, merely, that it has more chances and thereby increases the probability... consistent with the 'fluff' and "common sense"... Remember that Call of Cthulu holds price of place at the very centre and bottom of my toilet... every time I go it gets hit dead centre. Sorry, but I've always felt that the nihilistic overtones of the genre are not something that I'm faintly interested in. With that said, of course, sanity is going to have it's place. But I'm not sure what adding in the mechanics from another game are going to add at this point... In other words, sell me on the concept (and suggest integration) rather than posting the swathe of information! (And don't worry, I don't expect to be sold on it immediately... I know that you're busy!) I'm going to tentatively agree at this juncture. Depends on which reinvention of the 'fluff' - sorry, edition - that you're into. Actually, that might be a lie... all the 'fluff' has had people aware of daemons, it's only in the the recent 'fluff' that they've really acquired their Chaotic character. Differential interpretation of the universe can only be something that you're born with? Check out strict application of transcendental phenomenology...
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Post by Philip on Sept 14, 2004 20:37:37 GMT -5
Again I would say no. This is a blanket term which immediately predicates "use=bad". I'm unconvinced by the spin of "Chaos Influence" because, well, it revolves around negative imagery, not neutral. Seems that you may be cool with the design sequence, but are a poor spin doctor! Negative? Doesn’t that depend on the player’s point of view? To an aspiring chaos champion I think the chaos influence would be seen as a benefit… The term can change. ‘Chaos influence’ could easily be ‘warp affinity’, the idea was to show the Psyker ‘enjoying’ the use of their powers and giving incentive to push the boundaries (and absolute power corrupts absolutely). I think to the Psyker, Chaos is at first ‘fun’, but by the time a Psyker realises the danger it’s too late. =Mana dump=As for Mana/ spells, I’m saying to get rid of these terms as they do not fit (you can keep them in order to make a statement: psyker = magic user, but they do not fit in with the flavour of 40K). =Warp Affinity=Using Chaos Influence, or a more neutral term like Warp Affinity, Psyker powers are not down to how much ‘power’ a Psyker has, it is down to how much they wish to use it and accept the risks. This does mean a low level Psyker could ‘commit suicide’ by using the most powerful version of a Psyker Powers (like level 10 for a x10 mod), but he may not ‘die’ he may get lucky. A Psyker can choose to attempt to use any level of power, but it is a gamble. I think players may risk it if need be, but not without a good reason. =Path to Chaos=The only reason I can think of the reign in this system, would be that the Chaos Gods would want their champions to earn their stripes. Maybe taint is the maximum level of Psyker power a Psyker can use. For example, a taint of three allows the use of Psyker Powers up to level three (for the healing example I gave earlier, that would be 1D6x3 hp + 1D6x3 WA (warp affinity). This is quite nice, as it means a Psyker must have at least 1 point of ‘taint’ to uses Psyker powers. If a person has ‘taint’ then they are a Psyker. This now makes me think that 'taint' is the wrong word…
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 15, 2004 5:07:04 GMT -5
Negative? Doesn’t that depend on the player’s point of view? To an aspiring chaos champion I think the chaos influence would be seen as a benefit… I was pointing out that the side that you were arguing from gave too much emphasis to the chaotic/negative aspects, rolling over any idea that the warp just... is. That the idea that the warp is entirely dominated by Chaos rather than being 'polluted' by it doesn't sit right with me, more so because it contradicts some of the basic 'fluff'... That the 'corruption' is quite extensive is not to be questioned, but - once again - the idea that merely channelling energy is corrupting, or stealing energy from a daemon... Nah. ...the idea was to show the Psyker ‘enjoying’ the use of their powers and giving incentive to push the boundaries... It's really not necessary to go to the lengths that you were doing, though. This comes from your statement that you try to stamp the feel into the mechanics, rather than present a representation of the universe to which people bring their own feel... Thus, increasing Threshold as a result of Taint is incentive itself if the player wishes to go down that route: it should not be an automatic byproduct of the rules. As for Mana/ spells, I’m saying to get rid of these terms as they do not fit (you can keep them in order to make a statement: psyker = magic user, but they do not fit in with the flavour of 40K). As well you know that there is a great gap between concept and finalised 'product'. And this is the point that I was constantly hammering on about in the other thread, e.g. it is just a word that admittedly has attendent context, but context changes with the change of the word. Thus in the calamity table, above, you will not it says 'psyker' instead of mage, etc. (Admittedly that table as it stands is not appropriate.) Using Chaos Influence, or a more neutral term like Warp Affinity, Psyker powers are not down to how much ‘power’ a Psyker has, it is down to how much they wish to use it and accept the risks. This does mean a low level Psyker could ‘commit suicide’ by using the most powerful version of a Psyker Powers (like level 10 for a x10 mod), but he may not ‘die’ he may get lucky. You will note that the 'system' already allows for this, though primarily with 'area affect' abilities and those abilities which are particularly draining (rejuvenation, etc.). I see that you've gone back to the power multiplier situation... again, this is unnecessary and somewhat grainy. At present there are a number of different interactions with the universe that the mechanics represent (even if somewhat tentatively): - Threshold - The ability of a psyker to channel warp energy without damaging himself, others or the 'fabric of the universe'. Channelling warp energy is inherently draining.
- Recovery - The ability to recover one's "fatigue" in specific relation to the channelling of warp energy.
- Psyker/Warp Aptitude - The inherent ability of a psyker to manipulate warp constructs/psyker abilities. The higher the Psyker/Warp Attitude the greater the 'power' or complexity of the psyker abilities that can be utilised.
- Psyker Ability - A singular manifestation of a psyker category, i.e. telekinesis or telepathy, with which a pysker has familiarity and which they can be variously skilled.
- Taint - Representing the corrupting influence of the Warp, this is a 'free increase' in Threshold but one which comes with a price. [Price=not sure]
A Psyker can choose to attempt to use any level of power, but it is a gamble. I think players may risk it if need be, but not without a good reason. This is already present in the system by Calamity and Taint, though Taint is somewhat nebulous at the moment. Maybe taint is the maximum level of Psyker power a Psyker can use. Which would imply that you have to be Tainted to be powerful, something which again moves down the 'psyker=bad' approach. The 'power' of a psyker varies, in the above, with three features: Psyker/Warp Aptitude (the ease at which you learn and manipulate 'powerful' abilities), Threshold/Taint (the ability to channel energy) and individual facility with a given ability... (Remembering that Threshold can be increased slowly, consistent with the Eisenhorn books, or done through a natural process of 'unsafe' psyker-ing (Threshold/Taint) but also through specific service to the Ruinous Powers, which is not covered in 'psyker' rules though ultimately utilises them... Erm, kinda.) If a person has ‘taint’ then they are a Psyker. This now makes me think that 'taint' is the wrong word… Quite likely since it, yet and once again, suggests that 'psykers=bad', with concomitant implications of 'channelling daemons', etc., and all the things that force psykers into negative imagery rather than a neutral one in which the individual can bring their own interpretation. Perhaps since we're discussing a specific mechanical interpretation which, for the most part, tries to remain otherwise neutral it would be useful to remain within the boundaries of that system (as far as possible) rather than returning to concepts that were previously 'rejected' in other threads? (Except, of course, where they are relevant and appropriately applied to the thread in hand rather than de-railing it...)
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