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Post by CELS on Nov 12, 2004 7:42:31 GMT -5
I'm replying to this while I read it, in the extreme probability that I don't finish today [/li][li] Is there any way you could make them younger? If I recall correctly, Kage didn't really like the fact that they were as old as the War in Heaven, and I'm quite sure he won't permit it. I know how you feel though, as my Aoideans were originally supposed to be that old. But I changed the Aoideans, and just as well, really. I'm sure you can do the same, without the Atlanteans losing too much identity. [/li][li] They used to call themselves "the people"? A funny, if useless, bit of information [/li][li] "Most civilians live a peaceful life"... How utopian. It never ceases to amaze me, how much utopia there is in the Anargo sector [/li][li] "These villages, constructed of the standard air/waterproof structures, are spread out over a number of miles to avoid crowding, and are only rarely visible from orbit. In contrast, the five colossal metropolises are easily seen from space, the Atlantean equivalent of a hive city". I don't understand this part? Which five colossal metropolises? You've never mentioned them before. Is this a special structure on a specific world, or do the Atlanteans always build cities in five parts? [/li][li] What are clans, specifically? How do they form? I think you should consider re-writing the part about the clans, because it's a tad... difficult to read. [/li][li] Very interesting to read about alien food. Makes them more characterful, instead of just talking about what kind of guns they have. Anyway- humans eat a lot of bread, cakes, pasta and other food that requires a lot of preperation (as opposed to salad, fruit and fish). How do Atlanteans prepare their food? Do they eat all their food raw, or do they cook, fry or even barbecue their food? [/li][li] Out of curiosity, have you ever been in the army? It sounds as if all Atlanteans in the military are on exercises most of the year, which I must say sounds extremely tiring, not to mention ridiculously expensive. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong. By the way, when you speak of days and years, do you mean Atlantean standard days and years? If yes, how long are these? [/li][li] It would be interesting to hear about the origins of Atlantean religion. Why did they start to believe in Moranon and his five aspects? And why did the religion develop into having five aspects of God? Understanding a religion is very difficult if you know nothing about its history. Take Christianity, for example [/li][li] "A council of judges is formed, as impartial as can be." Again with the utopia [/li][li] Maybe make it clear that 'nicknames' such as Strikers and Piranhas are given by the Imperium, and not the Atlanteans [/li][li] Overall, the text seems a bit more 'conversational' (to use Kage's term for it) than I'd like. "Shockingly powerful teslacannons"... It's funny, but a bit inappropriate. "They do not eat soup (for obvious reasons)" - same here. [/li][li] There is too much mystery in the text. A lot of "no one knows" and "there are no records from this time" and stuff like that. Keep in mind that this is Out Of Character, so we'll need the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Stuff like this "The link is believed to have its roots in prehistoric times" is out [/li][li] If the psionic link between Atlanteans is seperate from the Warp, then it must be explained scientifically. That's the way things work in Warhammer 40,000. There is no magic, no supernatural stuff that isn't connected to the warp. This is the same as I told Destecado about the Hosok, which also had 'magical' qualities that weren't directly connected with the warp. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't fit in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, in my opinion. [/li][li] I don't quite like the fact that all Atlanteans form a single presence in the warp. It seems a bit munchkin, and otherwise very odd to me. It would be better if the Atlanteans had some kind of low-level psychic power that would allow them to merge their warp-presence with others close by. This could be connected to their semi-telepathic abilities. There! That's a whole lot of criticism, but overall, I think you've done a good job with the Atlanteans! I hope we can come to agreement about the above and throw something in the archives soon
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 12, 2004 20:16:07 GMT -5
[/li][li] Is there any way you could make them younger? If I recall correctly, Kage didn't really like the fact that they were as old as the War in Heaven, and I'm quite sure he won't permit it. I know how you feel though, as my Aoideans were originally supposed to be that old. But I changed the Aoideans, and just as well, really. I'm sure you can do the same, without the Atlanteans losing too much identity.[/quote] I'll do my best. The Old Ones are gradually being phased out, but they're leaving a gaping hole where they were. Without some sort of outside influence, the Atlanteans lose a focus for their "manipulation for the galaxy's balance". substitute "benefit" for "balance" and you get water-breathing Tau, which I am desperately trying to avoid. How's this for a theory, they evolved after the WiH, but one of the myriad objects that smacked their planet during the cataclysm was some sort of relic from the Old Ones that had been floating around since the WiH. It'd have some sort of OO holo-projector/book/recording/WHATEVER that told a story of an Old One-overseen galaxy of total balance and equality, free of bad people like the meddling C'tan. It could even be some sort of Old One propaganda, that the primitive Atlanteans took to heart. [/li][li] They used to call themselves "the people"? A funny, if useless, bit of information [/quote] I guess it is a bit useless. I'll think of a better name for themselves once the main background is written and I start adding minor details like language. [/li][li] "Most civilians live a peaceful life"... How utopian. It never ceases to amaze me, how much utopia there is in the Anargo sector [/quote] Er....... right. In the case of the Atlanteans, "utopia" isn't really right. they have personal conflicts/arguements, there lives aren't perfect. it's the peace that comes with lack of war that I meant. Atlanteans can fight if they must, but the majority of their defensive doctrine is a fighting retreat, since their utmost goal is to avoid widespread discovery. If a enemy fleet happens upon a colony by accident, they'd have two real options: Blockade the fleet and kill EVERYBODY to prevent them from escaping, or evacuate the colony and destroy what's left, or both of the first fails. I've got tons of weird ideas to dream with, i.e. ships like the Star Wars Inderdictor Cruiser (generated a portable gravity well that kept ships from entering or travelling in hyperspace), and since you can't travel in warp within star's gravity, this could have similar function. [/li][li] "These villages, constructed of the standard air/waterproof structures, are spread out over a number of miles to avoid crowding, and are only rarely visible from orbit. In contrast, the five colossal metropolises are easily seen from space, the Atlantean equivalent of a hive city". I don't understand this part? Which five colossal metropolises? You've never mentioned them before. Is this a special structure on a specific world, or do the Atlanteans always build cities in five parts? [/quote] D'oh. this is the kind of details I forget. This entire passage is referring to the homeworld only. It might even get erased entirely if the nature of the "tides" changes again. [/li][li] What are clans, specifically? How do they form? I think you should consider re-writing the part about the clans, because it's a tad... difficult to read. [/quote] Clans are the Atlantean basic social group. they consist of several extended families that travel together on the homeworld, or just live together if somewhere else. i thought I wrote that in, but it may have gotten deleted. I'll re-do the clan data for version 5.0 anyways, if its confusing. [/li][li] Very interesting to read about alien food. Makes them more characterful, instead of just talking about what kind of guns they have. Anyway- humans eat a lot of bread, cakes, pasta and other food that requires a lot of preperation (as opposed to salad, fruit and fish). How do Atlanteans prepare their food? Do they eat all their food raw, or do they cook, fry or even barbecue their food? [/quote] thanks, I like adding this kind of info. I suppose they'd eat mostly raw, though some prefer their food cooked somehow. Probably boiled. that'd be easiest and logical. Frying or BBQing are also options. Maybe I could write a mention that application of fire to food is considered wasteful, burning nutrients that could be eaten. those that actively cook their food could be"weird" or eccentric. [/li][li] Out of curiosity, have you ever been in the army? It sounds as if all Atlanteans in the military are on exercises most of the year, which I must say sounds extremely tiring, not to mention ridiculously expensive. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong. [/quote] Never in the army. Not old enough, and I won't plan on joining unless W, Bin Laden, and Elvis really are planning to take over the world be instating a draft. ( :)kidding, apologize for dragging politics - which i detest - into this ). Did I accidently delete details again? i thought I mentioned that only a third of the year is spent on "active" duty, training and ready for mobilizing. One-third is "reserve", when they live in civilian style but are always prepared for recall. The final third is off-duty or "leave", when they're really free ad can't be forced into combat units unless it's REALLY REALLY necessary. this'd be staggered among units to avoid a complete depletion of reserve forces. So, inf summary; 1/3: Off Duty. No official training, cant be called into service unless desperately needed. 1/3: Reserve. Civilian life, but prepared for recall at any time to reinforce a strike force. 1/3: On Duty. Live in barracks/bases with the military unit/clan. Active training. "battalions" or "platoons" (the Atlantean equivalents, I'm not sure of the relative size of these) "on duty" are always the first called to combat service if more troops are needed. i do mean Atlantean days and years, I'm not sure how long they'd be. First i need to figure out what kind of orbit the planet has, which means dealing with the 'cataclysm' can of worms. [/li][li] It would be interesting to hear about the origins of Atlantean religion. Why did they start to believe in Moranon and his five aspects? And why did the religion develop into having five aspects of God? Understanding a religion is very difficult if you know nothing about its history. Take Christianity, for example [/quote] Got it. I just can't get the number 5 out of my head for some reason with these guys. It could be something to do with the fact they see themselves as having five "limbs" (arms, legs, and head on neck, as long as any of the above). [/li][li] "A council of judges is formed, as impartial as can be." Again with the utopia [/quote] this sounds more utopian that it really is. Human juries are also supposed to be 'as impartial as can be". Are we a utopian society to? [/li][li] Maybe make it clear that 'nicknames' such as Strikers and Piranhas are given by the Imperium, and not the Atlanteans [/quote] i definitely need to do this, thanks for reminding me. The Atlanteans have their own words for their troops, the something-Nae or Something-Wardens. [/li][li] Overall, the text seems a bit more 'conversational' (to use Kage's term for it) than I'd like. "Shockingly powerful teslacannons"... It's funny, but a bit inappropriate. "They do not eat soup (for obvious reasons)" - same here. [/quote] Sorry, I can't help writing like that. I'll delete it. [/li][li] There is too much mystery in the text. A lot of "no one knows" and "there are no records from this time" and stuff like that. Keep in mind that this is Out Of Character, so we'll need the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Stuff like this "The link is believed to have its roots in prehistoric times" is out [/quote] Okay, so I'm lazy. i just didn't bother filling all the details. That line you gave can be easily fixed, i just need to remove the uncertainty (It DID originate in prehistoric times). [/li][li] If the psionic link between Atlanteans is seperate from the Warp, then it must be explained scientifically. That's the way things work in Warhammer 40,000. There is no magic, no supernatural stuff that isn't connected to the warp. This is the same as I told Destecado about the Hosok, which also had 'magical' qualities that weren't directly connected with the warp. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't fit in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, in my opinion. [/quote] this has been giving me headaches. Iread the discussion on the Hosok and went "uh-oh". Here's a possible solution, or the beginnings of one. I seem to remember seeing previous discussion between several people including you, Kage, Destacado, Phillip, and maybe other people on the Warp's nature. I rummaged around in various warp-related threads and came up empty, but I seem to recall the idea that the warp has "layers" or various depths at which currents flow. Ships move faster or slower depending on how deep they "sink", risking Geller field collapse or demonic attack (analogy = undersea pressure?). Perhaps the Atlanteans' collective mind could function on a very "shallow" layer of the Warp, too thin for ships to enter and devoid of other warp-lifeforms. I don't remember anything more that the basic idea of that part of the conversation, so this is very speculative.
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Post by Dazo on Nov 13, 2004 3:01:37 GMT -5
Seems a little to convenient, and how would they even be able to understand it, atlanteans are a sub aquious species aren't they, are they some sort of language geniuses that can naturally understand alien languages, we can't even understand the creatures on our own world let alone if an alien race tried to talk to us, what makes the atlanteans so special. And having thousands of years is not a reason, we've been listening to bird song for tens of thousands of years and we haven't got a clue what they are saying.
Well so have we. Why not make of mystical significance, like our pentegram, or the number 3, which was very significant to ancient cultures on earth.
They are aquatic aren't they, I doubt they would measure time as we do, by the passage of the sun, but more to do with tides, and probably the moon.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 13, 2004 10:27:35 GMT -5
[/li][li] I don't quite like the fact that all Atlanteans form a single presence in the warp. It seems a bit munchkin, and otherwise very odd to me. It would be better if the Atlanteans had some kind of low-level psychic power that would allow them to merge their warp-presence with others close by. This could be connected to their semi-telepathic abilities. [/quote] Possibly muchkin. I like that idea quite a bit, actually. Perhaps make it some sort of natural instinct, merging their warp-energies with nearby Atlanteans for protection. This could end up having the same effect, any "demonic" or hostile entity attracted to the combined energy source would be repulsed by the difficulty of overpowering multiple minds at once. Thanks many times over. This whole Project has been helpful beyond belief in developing the Atlanteans, way far from their humble and juvenile origins. There will still be at least one more re-write, with the above details and once Destacado and I agree on a logical, acceptable situation for their turbulent homeworld. Seems a little to convenient, and how would they even be able to understand it, atlanteans are a sub aquious species aren't they, are they some sort of language geniuses that can naturally understand alien languages, we can't even understand the creatures on our own world let alone if an alien race tried to talk to us, what makes the atlanteans so special. And having thousands of years is not a reason, we've been listening to bird song for tens of thousands of years and we haven't got a clue what they are saying. Indeed. Okay, that's out. Any other ideas? As good a solution as any.... That makes sense. Time by the sun wouldn't be logical, but tides aren't an easily workable solution (on the homeworld at least) I like the idea of telling time by the moon, one or more of which could be visible in daytime..
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Post by Dazo on Nov 13, 2004 10:32:44 GMT -5
It was more to do with the fact that the moon would effect tides, and sea creatures are very attuned to those motions, tides are regular, as long as the passage of the moon/moons are. You would also have strong currents, and things like El ninio and plankton blooms and all this seasonal stuff you should be able to use. It should be very interesting when you get it sorted
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 13, 2004 10:43:29 GMT -5
It was more to do with the fact that the moon would effect tides, and sea creatures are very attuned to those motions, tides are regular, as long as the passage of the moon/moons are. You would also have strong currents, and things like El ninio and plankton blooms and all this seasonal stuff you should be able to use. It should be very interesting when you get it sorted Indeed. The real problem is that at this time, I'm not sure how regular the passage of the moons will be. There needs to be some SERIOUS gravity influence to drain water from continent-sized patches of land for extended periods of time. I'm thinking of trying to throw in another planetoid/planet in a very close orbit, that became much closer when the homeworld's orbit changed. I've alos got a bunch of random variables to be tossed about, like a slightly elliptical orbit or numerous cometoids that orbit the sun, or moons that change host planets, or more wild ideas like that last one that I just thought of.
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Post by Destecado on Nov 13, 2004 11:17:10 GMT -5
Indeed. The real problem is that at this time, I'm not sure how regular the passage of the moons will be. There needs to be some SERIOUS gravity influence to drain water from continent-sized patches of land for extended periods of time. I'm thinking of trying to throw in another planetoid/planet in a very close orbit, that became much closer when the homeworld's orbit changed. I've alos got a bunch of random variables to be tossed about, like a slightly elliptical orbit or numerous cometoids that orbit the sun, or moons that change host planets, or more wild ideas like that last one that I just thought of. This need not be the influences of moons. there is still the possibility of ice ageg causing the drastic change in sea levels. It all depends what you mean by extended period of time. Are we talking just several years or decades or even als long as a couple of centuries. Remember, things like evolutionary adaptation don't take place over night...or even within a few dozen years. With regards to the equatorial regions during the ice ages. The sea would pull back leaving more land exposed to the air. This would be rich soil covered in the compost of successive generations of water plants and animals. Plants from the small marshy islands that dotted the swamp are would probably move in quickly, spreading over the lush open areas. The spread of this undergrowth would not only provide cover for predators and prey, it would also help to retain moisture within the soil. As the ice age began to receed, these lands would agan begin to be inundated with water. The life that had grown up among this tropical forest would either be destroyed or need to move to "higher ground". As dry land became more scarce, there would be added competition for survival, which would help to spur evolution. Example: Those crature adapted for living in both water and air would have wider ranging habitiats and would perhaps be more likely to survive. Also if there were creature that could alter their habitat to suit their needs, such as the beaver (effectively creating dry land through the creation of dams and lodges), these creature might be more likely to survive as well. Rather than being a single ice age, there may have been several, occuring at regular intervals...much like on our own planet. This process of receeding water giving way to jungle which then gives way to water again, may have adapted certain tree varieties to be able to survive with a certain portion of their trunk submerged in water. I know that I have only touched on the evniroment and habitat of the proto-Atlanteans...I take another look through the fluff and see if anything else comes to mind.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 13, 2004 12:20:45 GMT -5
This need not be the influences of moons. there is still the possibility of ice ageg causing the drastic change in sea levels. It all depends what you mean by extended period of time. Are we talking just several years or decades or even als long as a couple of centuries. Remember, things like evolutionary adaptation don't take place over night...or even within a few dozen years. By "exended periods of time", I knew I should have specified. Anywhere from a few years to a decade at max, at which time the tides shift again and new areas of land are left open(and others covered). Could mini-ice ages happen on a regular basis, perhaps in a elliptical orbit of sorts? That'd be useful in controlling the flow of water around the globe. Example: Killer space beavers.....he he he.. Sorry. This'll definitely help when I start creating other creatures to populate their homeworld. Could ice ages happen regularly, and still happen? Maybe every century or two, a min-ice age occurs that locks up a majority of the planet's fluctuating oceans. Please do.
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Post by CELS on Nov 16, 2004 10:01:37 GMT -5
I'll do my best. The Old Ones are gradually being phased out, but they're leaving a gaping hole where they were. Without some sort of outside influence, the Atlanteans lose a focus for their "manipulation for the galaxy's balance". substitute "benefit" for "balance" and you get water-breathing Tau, which I am desperately trying to avoid. How's this for a theory, they evolved after the WiH, but one of the myriad objects that smacked their planet during the cataclysm was some sort of relic from the Old Ones that had been floating around since the WiH. It'd have some sort of OO holo-projector/book/recording/WHATEVER that told a story of an Old One-overseen galaxy of total balance and equality, free of bad people like the meddling C'tan. It could even be some sort of Old One propaganda, that the primitive Atlanteans took to heart. I see your dilemma, but there are other possibilities. Perhaps the first active Atlantean psykers were able to communicate with a spirit in the warp, and the spirit laid this grand plan for them. This spirit could, interestingly, be anything from a mere echo in the warp, to a meddling Aoidean, a chaos daemon, or even the scheming Tzeentch himself. Another possibility is that they came up with the idea of balance all by themselves, thanks to their own religion or even science theories. The idea of balance between to poles isn't exactly uncommon in the different cultures of Earth, so it's likely that some aliens would have thought of the same. Yin and Yang, etc. In my comment about utopia, I was specifically referring to the world 'peaceful'. When you say that most of Atlanteans have peaceful lives, this sounds to me like they live lives without conflict of any kind. Conflicts with the Imperium and aliens is only one thing that would disturb the peace. What about civil wars, hunger, riots and all the other things that tear at the Imperium from within? Are these unknown to the Atlanteans? I'm sure that's not what you meant, but I do think it sounds slightly like the Atlanteans have a very utopian situation when you say they live peaceful lives. Know what I mean? Looking forward to it. Be sure to include a sort of definition of 'clan' as you use it, and a proper explanation of how clans are formed and why. Maybe. Of course, cooking food does allow them to eat more varied types of food... Good to know. When I joined the army, I was surprised about how little I actually knew, even if I had seen a lot of movies and played a lot of computer games. Oops. Seems I misread what you wrote. My bad. I thought that they spent one third of the year whilst 'projectiles whiz overhead' I agree with you. It sounds more utopian that it really is. In reality, I think it would be similar to today's juries, but by writing "as impartial as can be", it sounds as if they are especially impartial. But then, maybe I'm just reading things wrong again ;D Hmm, I'm not sure that's a viable solution. Why are you so insistant on making them incorruptible though? If you just make their warp presence unusually weak (almost like the Tau), and make their psykers less powerful than human psykers, then you should be safe most of the time. Especially considering this collective power that increases the mental defences against daemons, which can be explained by normal warpcraft.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 22, 2004 19:13:30 GMT -5
I like this idea. An "echo in the warp", what's that? I wouldn't mind having an Aoidean influencing them, depending on how the Aoideans view the "materium". Chaos demons, especially Tzeentch, I don't like. Tzeentch may very well have its own designs for the Atlanteans, but I don't want the Lord of Change responsible for thier original mission. I do. This situation could be remedied with a simple phrase like "relative to the citizens of the Imperium" or somesuch. Civilian life is pretty much seperate from the Imperium, the widespread fleets keeping colonies safe, and widespread evacuation conducted if the colony is in danger. Great. Perhaps, I just don't know how they're supposed to light fires underwater.... time spent abovewater usually isn't for recreation. Speaking of food, I had one...interesting idea. I thought of a sea cucumber-like creature, that has a second stomach where it stores inedible stuff it swallows, building it up until the stomach is full and the whole lot gets regurgitated. Atlanteans could domesticate the critter, and stuff it full of some grain-like product that they harvest. The grain reacts with enzymes in the extra stomach to have a chemical reaction similar to that of yeast, making a sort of bread-doughy food that is either coughed up by the "doughfish", or forcibly taken out (typically fatal to the fish) by the Atlanteans. This could be another delicacy due to the long preparation time involved. Good to know. When I joined the army, I was surprised about how little I actually knew, even if I had seen a lot of movies and played a lot of computer games. [/quote] Sadly, I lack even that experience. Never played any army game other than MoH, and very few movies beside those on the History Channel. ;D Whoops, going OT in my own thread.... Easy mistake to make. Nope, I just gave the passage extra flair. Too much, in fact. I'll tone down the "impartiality" of the description. Alright, new idea. Perhaps every Atlantean could be a very weak psyker, the only sign of their powers being the instinctive, semi-telepathic link between Atlanteans. Keeping this ability weak and passive should offset any danger from demons. Individually, their psykers could be weaker, but gain both increased power and increased protection from the latent power of nearby Atlanteans. Is this an acceptable solution, or does it just cause more problems? I'll do some serious work on this soon, probably this weekend (4-day break from Tanksgiving, hooray ;D) or even Christmas vacation.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 29, 2004 18:36:18 GMT -5
I'm beginning to re-write, and I thought of one thing.
How would the effect of an object-strike on the planet change if it were a comet as opposed to a small asteroid? A portion of the comet would likely melt in the atmosphere, making the impact smaller.
Also, how does this scenario sound for the cataclysm? -Planet merrily roaming around sun, watery world with lots of plants and fish and stuff. Some areas are shallow seas, others are Everglades-like swamps or northern bog or marshy terrain. -good sized object (either comet or asteroid) ends up on collision course with planet. When it hits, drives down to mantle and makes humongous shield volcano, sort of like a (then) underwater Olympus Mons. -Impact does not break up planet, but is enough to knock it out of orbit and closer to the sun before it is recaptured. This changes the gravitational forces acting on the planet, altering tidal patterns. -(Possibly) the planet also leaves its small moon behind when hit, and picks up the much larger planetiod that had been using the orbit that the planet settled into, capturing it as a moon of its own. This also would alter gravity, and tidal patterns. -All this chaos and mayhem and tidal patterns changing kills off a large number of the native species, some drowning in the sudden deluge of water, others drying up from lack of it. Survivors adapt to large-scale periodic tidal changes, including proto-Atlanteans. -No longer calm, small tides, tides are now massive changes that occur infrequently, moving entire seas many (hundreds?) of miles.
Destacado (and others), your thoughts on this scenario?
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More ideas I had while in drama group, dozing in the safe darkness of backstage.
Idea on their conecpt of balance, tieing in to CELS's suggestion on "warp echoes". This is my last gasp at some tie to the Old Ones, and it's minor enough that Kage might tolerate it.
The Old Ones were a highly pyschic race, as were many of their creations. Over time, the emotions and feelings of many of these races accumulated in the Warp, forming permanent collections of memory that drifted without thought. The last of these "echoes" formed shortly before the Old Ones vanished, fleeing the Enslavers and the C'tan. Their dejected dreams of a galaxy free of these threats coalescing into a vision of a "perfect" galaxy. For countless millenia after the disappearance, this lost vision drifted through the currents of the warp, until it brushed against the minds of some of the first Atlanteans to tap deeply into the immaterium. The reasons for the vision had long since decayed, but the core remained. These primitive psykers took this impartial echo of utopian peace as a divine message from their god Morannon, and it became the focus of the burgeoning Atlantean people to bring this about.
Actually, this doesn't have to be the Old Ones that "spawned" the echo. My bigger problem is if people will agree with my concept of "echoes" at all (i.e. unconcious, non-sentient accumulations of similar thoughts and feelings - sort of the opposite of demonic entities).
Idea 2 - Drysuits. The Atlanteans still wear suits above water to keep their skin moist and support their fragile spinal cord, and I crafted a much more detailed description.
With the stress on their spinal cord from walking upright for long periods of time, Atlanteans were forced to develop artificial aids. The result of long research was the "drysuit". Crafting a drysuit is a long and involved process, but the result can be a work of art as easily as it can be a weapon of war. All drysuits start with an elastic, skintight layer of a rubber-like polymer that is water-permeable. The next layer is a network of hundreds of hair-thin tubes, interlaced and interconnected, all filled with a liquid solution and sandwiched between another layer of rubber. This tiny hydraulic system is controlled by equally tiny pumps at various points in the suit, programmed to reinforce and mimic the movements of the wearer. A final layer of rubbery material is applied over everything, and its composition depends on the particular variant of the drysuit. Ordinary, civilian makes will be merely ordinary material, treated for water-retention. Combat drysuits have an outer layer of a much tougher rubber, coated to repel heat and laser blasts, and reinforced with sheets of metal or bone to block solid blows. Versions for working in vacumn or exotic environments have thei own alterations. The result is a product that offers a great deal of protection, but at almost no restriction of movement.
The drysuit sort of resembles a wet suit from the outside, combat versions perhaps overlaid with thin sheets of bone or metal. An understandable description, or did I go into detail too much?
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Post by Destecado on Dec 2, 2004 16:07:57 GMT -5
How would the effect of an object-strike on the planet change if it were a comet as opposed to a small asteroid? A portion of the comet would likely melt in the atmosphere, making the impact smaller. I can't say for certain. It all depends of the size of the object that we are talking about. You nay want to take a look at this site. Simulation of Asteroid/Comet Impacts with EarthIt has a link to software that allows you to run simulations of asteroid and comet impacts. If you don't want to bother with running your own scenarios, they site does offer the statistical data for a 100,000 year and 1,000,000 year simulation of impacts. Also, how does this scenario sound for the cataclysm? -Planet merrily roaming around sun, watery world with lots of plants and fish and stuff. Some areas are shallow seas, others are Everglades-like swamps or northern bog or marshy terrain. -good sized object (either comet or asteroid) ends up on collision course with planet. When it hits, drives down to mantle and makes humongous shield volcano, sort of like a (then) underwater Olympus Mons. Two problems with this. If you are talking about an object that can drive down to the mantel, you are potentially going to lose a good part of your atmosphere from the blast wave and all life on the planet (higher forms at least) will be extinct. An ocean water strike will not reach the mantel, but it also has less of a potential to kill off your entire population. if there is a substantial kill off, you will also lose all of those potential breeders. This means that the cross section of your population will be much smaller. A smaller population cross section means less of a chance (precentage wise) for mutations. Out of all the mutations that occur only a small precentage are actually beneficial adaptations. Smaller population therefore equels 9precentage wise) a longer evolutionary cycle for the Atlanteans. An alternative might be to have a large strike during the early phases of planetary formation. This would have taken place while the atmosphere was still forming , so the object would not burn up as much on re-entry. When it struck the planet it could have ejected a huge plum of molten material into space. Some of this would eventually fall back to the planet, while maybe some coalesced into the planets moon through the porcess of accretion. This is one of the current theories of how earths own moon was created. Earth was thought to have been hit by a Mars sized object during its formation. Another idea might be that the planet had two moons and that the asteroid or comet hit one. The explsion would have caused the formation of a ring of asteroids around the planet. Over the Millenium, these may have fallen onto the other moon and the Atlantean's homeworld. Such continuous bombardments would change not only the topography of the planet, but life itself. depending on the size of the impacts you may have sufficient matter thrown into the atmosphere to cause a global cooling...maybe not enough to kill of the population, but to change the enviroment. changes in an organisms enviroment are thought to be one of the factors that might promote mutations to occur. If you don't want it to be a second mone, then perhaps another planet in the system. Maybe the eliptical orbit of the planet carries it through the debris field of this destroyed planet. This is when meteor showers and planetary strikes are most abundant.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Dec 2, 2004 18:10:05 GMT -5
I can't say for certain. It all depends of the size of the object that we are talking about. You nay want to take a look at this site. Simulation of Asteroid/Comet Impacts with EarthIt has a link to software that allows you to run simulations of asteroid and comet impacts. If you don't want to bother with running your own scenarios, they site does offer the statistical data for a 100,000 year and 1,000,000 year simulation of impacts. Neat site. Unfortunately, I can't find any link to the actual program. It says it's only available on diskette, with some book from 1999. Not a half-bad idea. I actually like it a lot. This might be a solution to the tidal shifts, if a moon can be smacked without causing devestating changes to surface life. The two moons could be large, but placed in roughly opposite orbital positions around the planet, cancelling each other out (would this be the result?). When one got blasted, the other now has free reign and creates large tidal shifts. I'm still holding with the huge tides, on the order of seas shifting a number of miles occasionally, because I can't see other reason why they would have evolved legs unless they were needed to walk on land, at least for short periods of time. That helps.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 9, 2004 12:05:46 GMT -5
I've been reading through the Information thread about the Atlanteans and just wanted to offer some feedback on what I have read so far.
Removing one of the moves may give you more regular tidal changes, but having two moons on opposite sides of the planet will not cancel each other out. Moons do influence the tides, but you have neglected to add in the influence of the systems star on the planetary tides. I don’t know if you have given any thought to the type of sun the planet circles or the type of orbital path that the planet follows, but these will factor heavily into any fluctuation in the tides. Imagine the earth covered completely by water. As the earth spins, this water is balanced evenly on all sides by centrifugal force. The moon exerts a gravitational pull (tidal force) on this layer of water as it orbits the earth. This causes the water to bulge toward the moon. Because the earth is spinning there will be a bulge on the opposite side of the earth as well. As the earth rotates on its axis, each location on the earth will experience both tidal bulges. The areas of high water levels are high tides and the areas of low levels are low tides.
The sun also exerts a gravitational pull (tidal force) on the Earth. When the sun and moon are aligned, there are exceptionally strong gravitational forces, causing very high and very low tides which are called spring tides (though they have nothing to do with the season). There are also unusually high spring tides called The Proxigean Spring Tide. Though rare, This very high tide occurs when the moon is both unusually close to the Earth (at its closest perigee, along its eleiptical orbit) and in the New Moon phase (when the Moon is between the Sun and the Earth). The proxigean spring tide occurs at most once every 1.5 years.
When the sun and moon are not aligned, the gravitational forces cancel each other out, and the tides are not as dramatically high and low. These are called neap tides. Neap tides are especially weak tides. They occur when the gravitational forces of the Moon and the Sun are perpendicular to one another (with respect to the Earth). Neap tides occur during quarter moons.
Such a large moon will strongly influence tides, two such moons perhaps even more so…depending on how their orbits coincide. Have you given any thought to the rotational patterns of the moons? Before the second moon was destroyed, you would have had a greater variance in the height of the tides than when the moon is removed. Another important factor is the gravity of the planet. To have such large moons, the gravity will probably be slightly above earth normal. This may help to explain the development of the Atlanteans. On such a world with high gravity, it may be more likely for life to evolve in the sea. If you look at our own planet, the ocean has some of our world’s largest mammals (whales). They would have a hard time supporting their mass on land, but because the ocean “carries” their weight, they are able to grow to massive sizes.
The tidal effects of the surviving moon would not have changed. The destruction of the other moon would however remove a possible counterbalance to that tidal force. The tides would occur more regularly than prior to the second moons destruction. They would however not be able to reach the heights previously possible.
Example: Let us assume that one moon circles the planet at a higher rate than the other. This would mean that there could be times when both moons are lined up with the sun so that the tidal forces on the planet are at their most extreme. The tides during these times would rise up to points that with the removal of one moon, they would never be able to reach again. While this may seem like a bad thing, in the long run it may be good for your planet. From the sound of the world, the really isn’t much high ground. This would mean that at their extreme height, the waves would probably be able to wash over a great portion of the low lying lands. The destruction of the second moon may mean that this flood plain no longer receives the rare flooding it did previously. This could have severe effects on the ecosystem.
Well the shifting of position could be accounted for by the drying out of the flood plain. Depending on where the meteorites strike (on the now dry flood plain or in water), the effects of the strike would be different. Water strikes could cause tidal waves that could cause massive amounts of water to be displaced (moving of entire seas) to places it could not normally reach.
A land strike (depending on the size of the object) could cause massive deaths, but also throw large amounts of dust into the atmosphere causing global cooling…causing more water to freeze…causing lower sea levels. The strikes would also not be all at once. There may have been a large amount that hit when the moon first broke up, but strike might continue down through the centuries.
Actually if you watch schools of fish move, they seem to move as one. This is caused by a fish sensing vibrations through its lateral line system. The lateral line system, found in many species of fish and in some aquatic amphibians, is sensitive to differences in water pressure. These differences may be due to changes in depth or to the current like waves caused by approaching objects.
The basic sensory unit of the lateral line system is the neuromast, which is a bundle of sensory and supporting cells whose projecting hairs are encased in a gelatinous cap. The nueromasts continuously send out trains of nerve impulses. When pressure waves cause the gelatinous caps of the neuromasts to move, bending the enclosed hairs, the frequency of the nerve impulses is either increased or decreased, depending on the direction of bending.
A swimming fish sets up a pressure wave in the water that is detectable by the lateral line systems of other fishes. It also sets up a bow wave in front of itself, the pressure of which is higher than that of the wave flow along its sides. These near-field differences are registered by its own lateral line system.
As the fish approaches an object, such as a rock or the glass wall of an aquarium, the pressure waves around its body are distorted, and these changes are quickly detected by the lateral line system, enabling the fish to swerve or to take other action. Similarly when swimming as part of a school, a fish will be aware of changes in the direction or speed of its fellow school members, by the vibrations received through its lateral line system. (This is how schools of fish appear to swim and change direction in synchronized movement).
Because sound waves are waves of pressure, the lateral line system is also able to detect very low-frequency sounds of 100 Hz or less. I'm not sure if this would allow the Atlanteans to hear, but it would allow them to be aware of tonal differences. This might develope into a battle language that is similar to morse code or maybe their own language is like the songs of whales. This would travel great distances under water allow for long distance communications (in a fluid medium).
An interesting adaptation of the pressure-sensitive systems is seen in the modified groups of neuromasts called the ampullae of Lorenzini, which are found in sharks and certain bony fishes. The ampullae of Lorenzini act as electroreceptors and are able to detect electrical charges, or fields, in the water. Most animals, including humans, emit a DC field when in seawater.
This is most likely caused by electrical potential differences between body fluids and seawater and between different parts of the body. An AC field is also set up by muscular activity (contractions). A wound, even a scratch, can markedly alter these electrical fields. It might be that the proto-Atlanteans have a structure similar to the ampullae of Lorenzini, that over time evolves.
Thoughts like muscle contractions rely on the transmission of nerve impulses. These nerve impulses are electrical discharges. If an Atlantean was in close enough proximity, they may be able to register the nerve impulses of though and thus develop a form of telepathy…It could also perhaps develop into an ability to sense warp emanations as well.
I’ll need a little more time to go through the rest, but I hop this is helpful.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Dec 9, 2004 14:59:28 GMT -5
Just overall, has this progressed at all towards a favorable solution, or am I just going in circles?
Whoops, I did neglect that. Would an ordinary orbit suffice for the conditions I'm developing, or would a shallow elliptical orbit cause too many problems to be worth it (varying distance from sun = varying gravity effect - i think?)
Got it...
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