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Post by Destecado on Dec 9, 2004 15:16:41 GMT -5
I'll read through this, and try to edit in your suggestions. Just overall, has this progressed at all towards a favorable solution, or am I just going in circles? Don't worry, you are moving forward. It is just that each time an idea is refined, more issues can crop up...changing one thing can also cause some of the previously agreed upon concepts not to work any more. If you check out the Aoideans thread, you'll see that alot of back tracking has occured there as we try to fit them into other concepts with which they overlap.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 10, 2004 12:29:26 GMT -5
Some additional comments on the Atlanteans...
A better explanation of how or why they gained depth preception above water is needed. If they were a predatory fish to begin with, then perhaps this would fit, but if not I'm not sure why.
The spoken language is fine, but a more detailed explanation for the developement of a written language may be necessary. If you look at human developement of written language, there are the simple forms of a reed pressed into wet clay tablets (cunioform writing) the the developement of runes, pictograms, and hieroglyphs, interspersed with actual leters that when formed together create a word that stands for an idea or abstract thought.
An example for an alien speceis would be one that I was designing for a species of octopods. The have no verbal language. Communcation is done through body language and color change (they are able to alter the color patterns of their body).
Written language evolved out of these body gestures and differing colors. Words began as simple pictograms of a specific tenticle arangement and a corresponding color. As the language progressed, it became whirling patterns with mixtures of colors to express complex ideas.
I covered this earlier in my post about the latteral line system. This system perhaps became more refined over time where the Atlanteans were able to sense the electro impulses of thought in their fellow Atlanteans.
I'm not entirely sure about this explanation of what sent them on their great mission. Rather than having it be echos of the Old Ones in the warp, what about exploration of other systems. Maybe they found an Old Ones archive or warp gate...there might be such relics existing in the galaxy depending on when the Atlanteans first emerged as a space fairing race.
Actually this raises a question about what you wrote. Are you saying that this echo passed over their world in the warp before they became a space faring race or did they encounter it later when they already had use of warp travel?
It may be interesting if the Atlanteans relied on generation ships prior to achieving warp travel. Maybe they had huge biospheres filled with water. The could invariably hybernate or continue growing and producing further generations on their way to the new world.
Actually, I don't think that the Atlanteans should be inspired by the Old Ones to achieve perfection. BVased on how their society evolved...from the idea of the school of fish, the society was probably one of perscision and uniformity (a collective if you will).
Those that did not conform to the patterns of society were considered ill. Unlike their distant ancestors, which may have abonded such an ill member to its fate (as a snack for a hungry predator) the sentient Atlanteans would try to help this ill member to fit into society.
When they become aware of how irrational and chaotic the rest of the galaxy is, they may strive to go about correcting it as well.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Dec 10, 2004 15:30:47 GMT -5
To your earlier comments, let me see if I get what you're saying, reworded into a possible solution. -Happy swamp planet, two big moons orbiting. Moons' gravity causes infrequent, but major, tides that flood falt areas periodically. Migratory fish and amphibians evolve as a result. -Along comes a comet, which layeth the smackdown upon one moon. Comet vaporized, moon smashed. A few chuncks become mini-moons, a bunch of rubble turns into a ring system, and a bunch more starts falling as meteors. -Said meteors pummel the planet, creating massive tidal waves that alter the location of entire seas. Other hit land, and throw up dust that lowers temperature and causes some polar waters to freeze up. -In the new environment, the species with the best adaptation and survival win out, like the Atlanteans. -They evolve, become sentient, blah blah, this part isn't really a problem directly (except for the philosophy of balance and the "psychic" power, but that's coming next). I always intended for them to be predators to begin with, jut a slipup on my part. They can have good depth perception to begin with. Hmm, so written language evolves from the "spoken" form...how could this be applied to the Atlantean's language...would they begin with just a simple pictographic script, that gradually became more complex? Or would there be another way to tie it to their spoken variant? The most important thing is, can these impulses de detected without a liquid medium? If so, this is a very workable idea. It keeps psykers to the low frequency of most other races, and gives them a means of communication. The only problem I can see is, if the Atlanteans are sensitive enough to pick up and decode the electrical impulses of other Atlanteans' thoughts, wouldn't they become horribly sensitive ordinary electrical equipment, getting migraines from batteries and such? ;D Actually, I think I'm going to scrap the "echo". It was a rush job to get the Old Ones in with a shoehorn, and I like your idea below a lot better. He he he...excellent imagery, lots of potential. I think I'll do that, It'd be a very bizzare race that waited until discovering the Warp to make spaceships. i love it. This is the perfect remedy to my Old One woes. It fits with their environment, like you pointed out, only requires a small amount of cultural reworking, and it's perfectly Kage-friendly! You get another mention in the thank-you's. There's only one tiny problem, and that's that it might bring more comparisons to the Tau. That I do not need again.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 10, 2004 17:58:24 GMT -5
To your earlier comments, let me see if I get what you're saying, reworded into a possible solution. -Happy swamp planet, two big moons orbiting. Moons' gravity causes infrequent, but major, tides that flood falt areas periodically. Migratory fish and amphibians evolve as a result. -Along comes a comet, which layeth the smackdown upon one moon. Comet vaporized, moon smashed. A few chuncks become mini-moons, a bunch of rubble turns into a ring system, and a bunch more starts falling as meteors. -Said meteors pummel the planet, creating massive tidal waves that alter the location of entire seas. Other hit land, and throw up dust that lowers temperature and causes some polar waters to freeze up. -In the new environment, the species with the best adaptation and survival win out, like the Atlanteans. -They evolve, become sentient, blah blah, this part isn't really a problem directly (except for the philosophy of balance and the "psychic" power, but that's coming next). Close enough. Hmm, so written language evolves from the "spoken" form...how could this be applied to the Atlantean's language...would they begin with just a simple pictographic script, that gradually became more complex? Or would there be another way to tie it to their spoken variant? I'll have to give this further consideration. It may be that the written language bears nothing in common with their spoken language...although saying this, I now have to come up with an example. The closest approximation that I can come up with is Pinyin. Literally, it means "join together sounds" The primary purpose of pinyin in Chinese schools is to teach Mandarin pronunciation. Many Chinese do not use Mandarin at home, and therefore do not know the Mandarin pronunciation of words until they learn them in elementary school through the use of pinyin. Pinyin uses the Roman alphabet, hence the pronunciation is relatively straightforward for Westerners...although the pronunciation of some letters does vary. This variation of dialects would probably not be the case for the Atlanteans, who by the way they are being described seem more homogenious across their culture. The problem for the Atlanteans arises out of converting a tonal sound with variable modulation into a concrete word. It would be like trying to convey the raw emotion and visceral impact of a gutteral scream of a person as he is stabbed through the abdomen into a simple word such as "he screamed". Hmmm...actually I was working on a concept for another race, that may actually fit here. The problem was trying to convey changes on what part of a word was being stressed, which could change the menaing of the word. Example: Saddam Sad DAM (Stress placed on the second syllable) means enlightened one, while SAD dam (stress placed on first syllable roughly translates as shoeshine boy. The way that this was solved was by having the righting done as impressions in metal or stone. The deeper inmpressions equate to what part of the word should be stressed, which gives the propper meaning of the written word....I hope this helps some. I think that the Atlanteans would be very tactile sensative (sensative to touch), this is in part due to how they pick up eminations through the latteral line system (which also plays into their psychic connection). The most important thing is, can these impulses be detected without a liquid medium? If so, this is a very workable idea. It keeps psykers to the low frequency of most other races, and gives them a means of communication. The only problem I can see is, if the Atlanteans are sensitive enough to pick up and decode the electrical impulses of other Atlanteans' thoughts, wouldn't they become horribly sensitive ordinary electrical equipment, getting migraines from batteries and such? ;D They would probably learn to discriminate signals over time, but they probably would not be fond of high electromagnetic signals, which could in effect blind their latteral line system (kind of like their vesion of vertigo or what happens to humans with sound over a certain number of decibles). With regards to being able to read another creatures mind. Outside of a fluid medium, the Atlantean psykers would need a closer proximity to the target. Again physical contact becomes important. Actually I find it funny that as I am writing this, the idea of the vulcan mind meld from Star Trek popped into my head. I would say that the Atlanteans need physical contact to make the psychic link out side of a fluid medium. The could also perhaps create a device to boost their powers, letting them pick up signals through the air (sort of like a psychic hearing aid). ;D Actually, I think I'm going to scrap the "echo". It was a rush job to get the Old Ones in with a shoehorn, and I like your idea below a lot better. Thanks. It still needs some work, but it may also help to better define the developement of their culture. He he he...excellent imagery, lots of potential. I think I'll do that, It'd be a very bizzare race that waited until discovering the Warp to make spaceships. Definitely. Also it has the advantage of having groups of Atlanteans spread throughout an area rather than just on a couple of worlds. Even if you were to destroy all their planets (which is a pretty big if), you can't be assured of having gotten all of them, because there could be some generation ships still in transit. There's only one tiny problem, and that's that it might bring more comparisons to the Tau. That I do not need again. It all depends on how it is handled. Granted, the philosophies are similar, but there are some differences. The Tau were a warlike race that only came together under a single goal due to the enforcement by the ethereals. Also it all depends on how you interpret 'The Greater Good". It has always struck me that this is much like the Vulcan philosophy (Wow two Star Trek references in one post) that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. If the greater good is served by sacrificing one member so that the greater majority can continue to live, then that is great for the majority, but pretty much bites for the individual. The Atlanteans are tied almost directly into their enviroment by their senses. Small changes are readilly apparent to them. Fluctuations in electromagnetic currents as perceived through their ampullae of Lorenzini (or annalguous structure) make them aware of differences that may not be apparent to other species. Since everything is connected, what effects one thing invariably effects them. Balance is bringing things back into harmony with the "natural" order. (boy now this is starting to sound like the force from Star Wars). I'm not sure if I have made clear the distinction...I'll try to come up with a better explanation. Suffice to say the Greater Good is an external phyilosophy or way of thinking imposed upon the Tau, while the idea of balance is internal to the Atlanteans. They can feel when things are out of balance and work to correct it. Actually, that might be an interesting trait of the race. To outsiders, they almost seem anal retentive, because they insist on things being a certain way. (think of the prescision of the Japanese tea ceremony or the triming of Bonsai trees. Please don't take this to mean that the Japanese are anal retentive, just prescision and ritual have their value for focussing the mind.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Dec 11, 2004 5:21:09 GMT -5
This variation of dialects would probably not be the case for the Atlanteans, who by the way they are being described seem more homogenious across their culture. The problem for the Atlanteans arises out of converting a tonal sound with variable modulation into a concrete word. It would be like trying to convey the raw emotion and visceral impact of a gutteral scream of a person as he is stabbed through the abdomen into a simple word such as "he screamed". Hmmm...actually I was working on a concept for another race, that may actually fit here. The problem was trying to convey changes on what part of a word was being stressed, which could change the menaing of the word. Example: Saddam Sad DAM (Stress placed on the second syllable) means enlightened one, while SAD dam (stress placed on first syllable roughly translates as shoeshine boy. The way that this was solved was by having the righting done as impressions in metal or stone. The deeper inmpressions equate to what part of the word should be stressed, which gives the propper meaning of the written word....I hope this helps some. I think that the Atlanteans would be very tactile sensative (sensative to touch), this is in part due to how they pick up eminations through the latteral line system (which also plays into their psychic connection). I see, and you have a point. Aside from the very interesting analogy... ;D This would be usable, do you mind if I hijack it? My very early ideas had them carving their script into stone/bone, maybe its time to resurrect that. Perhaps when writing on lighter stuff like paper (or its equivalent) the test could have certain areas darker, or a different shade of ink, to differentiate the emphasis. Even more fluffy potential, but it should be limited to strong electomagnetic signals like you described. Maybe implants could be designed that would reduce the level of "interference" from non-Atlantean sources. Weren't the Vulcans brought up in previous discussion? This could be interesting.... Anyways, this "pesudo-psychic" link is really fleshing out. From what I've understood, this Lorenzini (sounds like spaghetti ) Amphullae lets fish sense electrical impulses from nearby fish (sort of like a built in radar?). The Atlanteans bear very highly developed versions of this organ, enabling them to sense the impulses that make up emotions at ranges, and actually establish a telepathic link with physical contact. They can also sense these impulses through non-fluid mediums like air, with special mechanical aids that increase their sensitivity (These also might have "filters" included to block outside electromagnetic signals. It also gives an opportunity to introduce the cultural quirk I proposed earlier, that of a social taboo against physical contact of any kind without invitation, and most Atlanteans wear "gloves" of some sort. I never though of that. Even though it's been a while since they discovered warp travel, there might be one or two generation ships left wandering around, moving through space takes a while. Aye. I don't see the Atlanteans as casting out deviants, but embracing them and sheltering them until they see the "errors" of their ways. This could actually be brought out further, giving them an interesting justice system. Criminals are not thought of as "evil" but are mentally ill or misguided, and need treatment rather than punishment. Onyl the worst crimes would be considered deliberate, things that not even an insane Atlantean would do (what, I wonder? ) So they would be more more sensitive than most races? It could be a sort of "sixth sense" that lets them understand their surroundings. If it was developed enough, it could be mistaken for telepathy, since stuff like walls and machinery give off trace amounts of EM energy, less that a living being. Even blind, they could navigate with this ability. Maybe it even lets them see dead people ;D (mostly kidding, but would something like an Aoidean manifesting/lurking give off EM energy, and would they be considered dead? He he he..... That does sound like Star Wars That clears it up perfectly, I see what you're saying, It definitely eases my worries. To those outsiders that they contact and let live, yeah...
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Post by RascalLeader on Dec 12, 2004 14:41:11 GMT -5
All right; I thought I would pop over to see how you’re doing. Considering CELS was on about me posting some more I though I would come here; to visit the ‘Neighbours’.
You have done very well; I am eagerly awaiting the next update. Most of the comment I am going to make is slightly reaching; but there you go :-)
Let tackle the first thing I have noticed first. You have been trying to turn the Greater Warp mind into an EM sense. While there is nothing wrong with that (it’s a good idea and links in well with their aquatic nature), I would point out it would once again render them vulnerable to the influence of Warp Creatures.
I am not sure it would let them connect to each other’s minds ether. The way I have always ‘seen’ it being able to sense Electro-magnetic currents is a passive sense. As a comparison it’s rather like eyesight; that they can ‘watch’ and be ‘blinded’ if the sensation is high enough, but not to be able to ‘do’ anything with.
Would they actually kill outsiders? They seem rather beneath that, being ‘peaceful’ as they are.
After all having a few living ‘specimens’ around can actually be quite useful. They could even get a comparison to recorded history from them, from the view of the subject. After all if they are record keepers getting as much information as possible out of them would be an important thing to them.
I would think they would keep them trapped on one of their worlds and just die of old age naturally. Ether that or they could have found a way in which to Memory wipe them so they could be returned.
I am still not sure how they go about manipulating the other races. Could you give more details on their actual methods involved. Since they seem to be isolationists I am not sure how they would go about it.
Prophets are quite serious things; what sort of impact on society do they have? Are they active in the culture handing out Religious laws, Prophesising events to come, or just relaxing in vast luxury.
And with such a developed culture as theirs would then not be able to tell that they are mentally deranged people? If they sense EM waves they would be able to tell they’re slightly off kilt rather then speakers influenced by Moranon.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Dec 12, 2004 16:37:34 GMT -5
All right; I thought I would pop over to see how you’re doing. Considering CELS was on about me posting some more I though I would come here; to visit the ‘Neighbours’. Welcome, welcome..... Thanks, all comments are useful. Vulnerability to warp creatures is now a problem, could I just slip by with a cop-out similar to that of the Tau, that most Atlanteans are warp-"dead", except for the actual psykers? Or something in their brain chemistry makes them difficult to possess? That seems a little far-fetched, so I need to work this out. I could scrap the "warp-immunity" idea, but that opens up completely new problems. That's sort of what I was aiming for, except that it's cmore like pulses than a steady current of EM energy. The only "talking" they do is when they're close enough to touch, in which case it's merely a case of them being sensitive enough to actually decipher thoughts/images, and form images of their own for receipt. Outside of that, the sense dims steadily to the point where they are only aware that there are other Atlanteans nearby and need radios/comlinks/whatever to communicate. They would indeed kill outsiders, and frequently do if they stumble upon an Atlantean outpost or colony accidentally. It's the only surefire way to keep their existence a relative secret, which is essential if they are to go about doing what they're doing (kind of hazy, ATM). It would vary from race-to-race, though. Humans, Orks, DE, and Tau get killed, unless there's a very good reason not to. Eldar would be more likely to get away, mainly because tangling with them is much more trouble than it's worth, the Eldar having far less potential to cause immediate problems as opposed to an Imperial battlefleet. Necrons = terminate with extreme prejudice. 'Nids are a special case, since the situation depends on the circumstances. Sometimes they will seek out splinter fleets to exterminate, or to wipe out a splinter that's threatening a colony. If the swarm's too big to destroy, they get the **** out of Dodge and evacuate the colony. These are included in the "good reasons not to" category. Good points, though. Very subtly. that's sure. You're right, I better make a note that this was in their past, and not the "current" era. Makes much more sense that way.
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Post by CELS on Dec 13, 2004 7:30:59 GMT -5
Hello Glyphstone! Once again I return to lend you my judging eye for the greater good. I'm afraid I haven't really been keeping up lately though, so I might say a lot of things that have already been covered, that you are currently working on, and so forth. It does help that you have colour-coded the index in the 'current information' thread though. Good idea Let's begin... [/li][li] I'm going to start small. The first paragraph seems to have a typo "but they make to claims as to owning an empire"Surely, this should be "but they make no claims as to owning an empire." Hell, I'm not even sure if 'as' should be there, but you would know better than me [/li][li] I would prefer it if you could describe the Atlantean homeworld without using present-day Earth examples. It's just the ASP style of writing, you see, which comes from GWs style of writing. [/li][li] "brought a new meaning to “survival of the fittest”. " Slightly conversational style here. I think you should consider rephrasing it [/li][li] "Atlantean culture is generally divided into several parts: The life of civilians, and those in the military. "Ok, first of all, if it is divided into two parts, why not say two parts? Second of all, what does it mean that Atlantean culture is divided into two parts? Does it mean that the culture in the military is extremely different from that of the civilians? More so than for other races? The sentence just doesn't make too much sense to me, I'm afraid You might as well divide culture into the life of males and females. This just seems like a wargame bias that Kage is probably chewing his arm off over. [/li][li] I think it would be better to describe the Atlantean homeworld in a seperate section or paragraph, rather than trying to put it in the middle of the culture section. [/li][li] As I asked Destecado, I will ask you. What do these aliens see as the purpose of their lives and of the universe itself? What role do they play to fulfill the wishes of their god? PS: I took the liberty of changing the name of this thread, since I found the previous name extremely irritating. I hope you don't mind
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Dec 13, 2004 14:15:08 GMT -5
Hello Glyphstone! Once again I return to lend you my judging eye for the greater good. I'm afraid I haven't really been keeping up lately though, so I might say a lot of things that have already been covered, that you are currently working on, and so forth. It does help that you have colour-coded the index in the 'current information' thread though. Good idea Thanks. Help is always useful. I'm also trying to follow your edict and branch out, most recently the Artwork and the Eldar forums. [/li][li] I'm going to start small. The first paragraph seems to have a typo "but they make to claims as to owning an empire"Surely, this should be "but they make no claims as to owning an empire." Hell, I'm not even sure if 'as' should be there, but you would know better than me [/quote] Oopsies....gotta fix that. [/li][li] I would prefer it if you could describe the Atlantean homeworld without using present-day Earth examples. It's just the ASP style of writing, you see, which comes from GWs style of writing.[/quote] All right, I'll change that. [/li][li] "brought a new meaning to “survival of the fittest”. " Slightly conversational style here. I think you should consider rephrasing it [/quote] Same answer. Any suggestions as to a more "professional" phrasing? [/li][li] "Atlantean culture is generally divided into several parts: The life of civilians, and those in the military. "Ok, first of all, if it is divided into two parts, why not say two parts? Second of all, what does it mean that Atlantean culture is divided into two parts? Does it mean that the culture in the military is extremely different from that of the civilians? More so than for other races? The sentence just doesn't make too much sense to me, I'm afraid You might as well divide culture into the life of males and females. This just seems like a wargame bias that Kage is probably chewing his arm off over.[/quote] All right, I'll get rid of that line. It doesn't make much sense to me either. [/li][li] I think it would be better to describe the Atlantean homeworld in a seperate section or paragraph, rather than trying to put it in the middle of the culture section. [/quote] No reason not to. I'll reorganize that section. [/li][li] As I asked Destecado, I will ask you. What do these aliens see as the purpose of their lives and of the universe itself? What role do they play to fulfill the wishes of their god?[/quote] Hmm, I'll have to think on that. Destacado and I were discussing the origin of their "balance" philosophy, and came up with a workable phrasing for what I envision. Since they evolved from a fish-like species, their society has very group-oriented roots. Decisions are reached as a group, and the majority of the population will "go with the flow", so to speak. Everyone would be given a say, but once an agreement was made, all were expected to abide by the consensus. Deviants were considered mentally ill in some manner, out of balance with the universe and themselves, requiring treatment to bring them back in alignment. When they began expanding into the galaxy, they were appalled at the chaos and disharmony present in the other races at large, and took it upon themselves to "guide" the galaxy to a more "balanced" state. Moranon, the Five-Faced God, is their guardian and protector. He/She/It (varies depending on the particular Face in question) knows and sees all, leading the Atlanteans towards their "great destiny" as shepherds of the galaxy. EDIT:I have no idea what the **** I just said. I need sleep. No problem. The joke was starting to wear thin on me, too.
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