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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 17, 2004 13:24:02 GMT -5
I think there is way too much emphasis on the Biel Tan as being go-out-of-their-way-to-be-mean on the military side. At present I am working with the principle that Tir'asur has nothing to do with Biel-Tan. Why? Simply because it is the first one that everyone suggests because of the 'fluff' statements. I think by playing up military aspects within technology-focused programs is totally appropriate. When you see a sci fi movie, who is in it? Military and scientists. One needs research and tests it in a methodical, efficient system. The other provides the research. It's also because they've got big guns which make loud noises and pretty lights. Never underestimate the orkiness in the average movie-goer! IIRC, it was Kage who said the founding date was significant for a possible role within the EoT campaign. The world was founded almost two millennia in the past, at least at present. Erm, now there's a confusing sentence. Anyway, currently the founding date of Tir'asur is somewhere in the mid-portion of M37... I don't see that as necessarily providing troops. But I can see a technologically bent colony developing experimental weapons, drugs, and detection systems for what may be seen by the Seers as an upcoming conflict. I must admit to 'floundering' on the concepts for the strict purpose of the craftworld eldar colony other than, well, "'cos"... With that said I'm also keen on a number of reasons being employed, from the "'cos" one to the fact that it is set right on the edge (or just within) the Heart. But I'm not sure that I'm keen on having it as a military reseach outpost... These may be incremental development, but I dislike the idea that the Eldar quit developing technology so long ago. As do I. Heck, maybe they rediscover the Slicing Orbs and found a new Aspect in a few generations? Heck, that's a new bit of 'fluff'. Slicing Orbs? I've got a feeling that there is no reason why they shouldn't have recreated that technology... And a 'few' generations is almost two more millennia... I don't like the Spider motif for two reasons: 1. as another poster pointed out, there's several "sneaky" factions already. 2. I don't see too much sneaky about trade For an "out of the way" colony, the Spider Clan might not be entirely appropriate for a major presence. However, as pointed out elsewhere with the coming influence of Lord Anargo into brining in an RT to 'open up' the Heart... well, they've got a vested interest to be there as a 'service' to the eldar as a whole. Furthermore, one must question what there is to trade...? Eldar technology permits almost immediate technological independence from the craftworld. I do, however, see them as providing the craftworld some raw materials, if that helps... With a Craftworld relatively nearby I'm not sure the colony would be completely secret... From the eldar it is not, for the most part. A path where the Eldar emotions are dealt with by logic and detachment. Speaking to the converted here. That has been my predication of the Path since almost the very beginning... although without the Vulcan total emotional detachment. I work on the premise that the eldar long ago realised that the emotional context is as significant as the actual memory of the event in creating a holistic memory/experience. Of course, such a place would have more reliance on the Infiinty Circuit for things, but would that be bad? I do not follow that chain of logic...
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Post by CaptainStuart on Jul 17, 2004 14:42:04 GMT -5
The Slicing Orbs were a throwaway reference about Aspects in the 2nd Edition codex.
For the Infinity Circuit, I see that as something really played down in background of the past several years. It seemed a vital component of very old background and does appear distantly within the context of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.
I thought it would be a way of using that aspect of the background within the context of the colony. That is all.
Sorry to be obtuse.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 18, 2004 10:56:20 GMT -5
The Slicing Orbs were a throwaway reference about Aspects in the 2nd Edition codex. I gathered. IIRC EO was having an Aspect for the "Slice Orbs of Zandros" or somesuch... For the Infinity Circuit, I see that as something really played down in background of the past several years. And the fantasy/spiritual side of things emphasised rather than the computational aspects. I thought it would be a way of using that aspect of the background within the context of the colony. That is all. The Infinity Circuit and the ancestors therein are a vital part of the eldar culture, for me... So you don't have to worry too much about that, unless you've got some more specific suggestions?
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Post by CaptainStuart on Jul 18, 2004 12:18:29 GMT -5
The Infinity Circuit and the ancestors therein are a vital part of the eldar culture, for me... So you don't have to worry too much about that, unless you've got some more specific suggestions? IMHO there's not much in the way of Eldar I have seen in my limited experience that seem to really utilize the Ancestors. That's probably for the best, but I want to see an Eldar Phoenix movement centered on the computational aspects as you say. I can only see that within the current framework via the Ancestors. I think it would lend itself well to the colony's methods as I understand them.
As you know many of the "official" Craftworlds' governing bodies are represented fairly well via your system. I don't see much representation of the Ancestors. Given the "tomb pillaging" aspects played up the past 3-5 years I'm not suprised. I can see some influence exterted via Ulthwe' but see the Seers being much more powerful there.
My suggestion is to have the Ancestors play a vital role within the colony. One that is more active in ensuring the colony succeeds. I've already stated my vision includes improved efficiency and resource distribution for various Eldar. I'm not suggesting Wraithguard walking down the halls giving high fives to Banshees, but I think the Ancestors angle could lead to some role-playing/myserious mission storylines should someone wish to use the ASP in its full scope and depth.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 19, 2004 0:51:48 GMT -5
Don't you just hate it when you press the wrong key and it resets your darned message! IMHO there's not much in the way of Eldar I have seen in my limited experience that seem to really utilize the Ancestors. That is because, in part, they are still ancestors and as such are not utilised as mere energy patterns, or forces to be redirected. They have consciousness, memory and a soul... That's probably for the best, but I want to see an Eldar Phoenix movement centered on the computational aspects as you say. Not sure quite what you're trying to get at here. Eldar technology works through a combination of, well, 'material technology' (e.g. it conforms to the 'physics' of the 40k universe) and 'magic' (psychic engineering, or whatever you want to call it)... This is what I - not originally - refer to as 'technomancy'. The Infinity Circuit is merely a computer (material technology), combined with psychic engineering (magic), to form a technomantic device that is a computer... and more. With that said one must question why the Phoenix Clan involvement would focus solely around 'computers'? I think it would lend itself well to the colony's methods as I understand them. Then you're going to have outline those methods as you see them... I don't see much representation of the Ancestors. Iyanden, for one. Regardless, the Ancestors are an omnipresent feature of the craftworld eldar society. Whether it is through socialisation of children through their 'spirit guide' ( teah-shih), the guidance of the Seer or Ancestor Council through their collective experience, to the 'everyday running' of a craftworld or indiviudal technological artefacts through the gestalt consciousness of the craftworld itself... My suggestion is to have the Ancestors play a vital role within the colony. They do, as they do everywhere. Again, though, perhaps you could expand upon your ideas. I've already stated my vision includes improved efficiency and resource distribution for various Eldar. That may be, but linking the various statements into a cohesive image/suggestion has not yet been achieved! I'm not suggesting Wraithguard walking down the halls giving high fives to Banshees, but I think the Ancestors angle could lead to some role-playing/myserious mission storylines should someone wish to use the ASP in its full scope and depth. [/color][/quote] <grin> Since the RPG is my primary interest in using the 40k universe and the ASP then, yes, this is going to be done. (And I actually wrote a very short story on this for the CWEO project on EldarOnline...)
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Post by CaptainStuart on Jul 19, 2004 3:12:18 GMT -5
Yes, the Ancestors have valuable advice and wisdom to give. Sort of like the elderly in American society. But like the elderly here they seem to be ignored for the most part. Maybe being represented by a flashing light on a console isn't good for the camera? On this I think we agree.
One can always use the Ancestor's as a "GM's voice" or patron type in a RPG situation. I want to see people in the colony saying somethign along the lines of "the Ancestors are right. We need to get our birth numbers up, pick our battles carefully, and ensure a means of capitalizing on the focused nature of the Path while minimizing the limitations".
While Eldar technology is a mix of science and "magic" I want to see some of the "science" put into daily life. The Eldar science in GW sources seems focused on gadgets. I don't see much material on Eldar research and development, exploration (unless you count the virtually non-existant details of what a Pathfinder does exploration), and the like. You would think a society that is materially well off and so very specilaized with the Path concept would have specialist from realms other than war and warp eneergy manipulation more visible. The Tau certainly do and they have a fraction of the background development the Eldar possess.
Here's my vision of the colony: Population: 500k - 750k Founding date: 2-3 generations ago (I know there is a specific date already.) Tech level: 13GTL Government: Council with a coalition of the Dragon Clan and Ancestors dominant. Spider Clan has some say in general implmentation of colony goals. Seers have some input, but function in more of a support role. Colony resources: Agricultural based pharmaceuticals, exotic foodstuffs, research Colony projects: improvement of Eldar tech, investigation of old/forgotten literature/archeology for knowledge, general food resources for disparate Non-craftworld elements (possibly exodites, other colonies, Craftworlds with resource challenges such as Ulthwe').
The challenge as you put it lies in the fact that a colony really isn't needed when your main entities have everything they need. The colony needs to have a reason for existing. Since they aren't economically helping a particular patron the reason for their founding must be based in an ideological direction. Hence my backing of the general Phoenix concept.
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Post by LordFenric on Jul 19, 2004 7:13:07 GMT -5
Yes, the Ancestors have valuable advice and wisdom to give. Sort of like the elderly in American society. But like the elderly here they seem to be ignored for the most part. Maybe being represented by a flashing light on a console isn't good for the camera? On this I think we agree.
Well, given that under the 'kageverse' interpretation the ancestor council makes up 1/3 the deciding 'vote' it's voice is listened to heavily, although mainly for guidance as opposed to planning. And going completely OT yay........ 14,000 words and counting
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 19, 2004 11:53:48 GMT -5
Yes, the Ancestors have valuable advice and wisdom to give. Sort of like the elderly in American society. <grin> I shall restrain my inappropriate comments at this point and merely suggest that the eldarly in most western capitalist states tend to be... well... ignored. As you say... Maybe being represented by a flashing light on a console isn't good for the camera? The camera? And for me there is absolutely nothing to stop the 'dead' eldar taking on a partial physical manifestation through the utilisation of technology (holographic or 'virtuality', depending on how integrated you believe eldar computational aspects are with their everyday life)... One can always use the Ancestor's as a "GM's voice" or patron type in a RPG situation. Yep, of course... I want to see people in the colony saying somethign along the lines of "the Ancestors are right. [etc.]... Well, in some regards they do. The eldar interact regularly with the 'dead', either through their teah-shih or through the 'advice' offered to both Seer and Clan Council... for me, that is. The Eldar science in GW sources seems focused on gadgets. All the 'science' in the 40k universe is focussed on gadgets. That's just a part of the wargame, since it doesn't need anything concrete behind it... Don't worry, however, I prefer to have a bit more structure to things! You would think a society that is materially well off and so very specilaized with the Path concept would have specialist from realms other than war and warp eneergy manipulation more visible. Thematic armies and wargame spring to mind. With that said, one entire Path, for me, is dedicated to 'exploration' in general, whether this is art, philosophy, science, the universe or whatever: that Path of the Seeker. Well, it's around 700,000... Founding date: 2-3 generations ago (I know there is a specific date already.) As discussed above, yes... Yup. Government: Council with a coalition of the Dragon Clan and Ancestors dominant. The government follows the same structure as the founding craftworld and, broadly, all eldar craftworlds (for me). Thus there is a Clan Council, a Seer Council and, of course, the Ancestor Council. All have a voice in determining the 'direction' of the colony and interaction with the home craftworld. Colony resources: Agricultural based pharmaceuticals, exotic foodstuffs, research Why these? Colony projects: improvement of Eldar tech... Why here and why not on the craftworld? Indeed, the same applies to the other concepts... Oh, and congratulations LordFenric. Mine's 50,000 words and counting...
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Post by CaptainStuart on Jul 20, 2004 1:58:42 GMT -5
I guess all these questions have burned me out. I honestly can't think of a reason for the colony to exist at all. As you say, everything can be done just as well on a Craftworld. What I have tried to do is look at options not seen often when discussing Craftworld or Exodite society. I can't give a full detailed analysis of the idea. I have a very limited view of the ASP and Eldar, certainly not as good as many on this board. Since this isn't my project and I can't detail my ideas at this point I'll humbly go back into lurk mode.
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Post by LordFenric on Jul 20, 2004 2:09:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure a reason is really nescecery other then 'because', seeking a return to what they once were and all that. Whilst the imagery of a dieing race is evocative its also very stagnating, nothing can go forward bacuse it can only get worse. I prefer to view it in less absolute terms, yes the Eldar did a very bad thing which they paid for but sociotys can come back from such things, AFter all kill 90% of an ant colony and ina few years it'll be bac kto full strength, i dont see why the Eldar cannot attempt to recover what they once were, or more accuratly to regrow in a now mould.
They have had a long time to deal with the consequences of their actions andtheir socioty has splintered in to different factions each with its own method of dealing with it. At some point their has to be growth and perhaps the colony is afore runner for that.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 20, 2004 12:30:06 GMT -5
I guess all these questions have burned me out. Nah... I doubt that somewhat. I honestly can't think of a reason for the colony to exist at all. Yes, but could that not be the point? Out of interest, Tir'asur does have an 'export' in the form of mineral resources used in the production of the various psychoplastics. While these can be provided by the craftworld, it's much easier to get 'stuff' from a world (easier conditions to mine) as well as the asteroid belt present in the system... Of course, that doesn't mean that it was the reason that the colony was founded. That's just something that has occurred subsequently... As you say, everything can be done just as well on a Craftworld. Fair enough. You'll find that I've included many of the concepts but possibly in a different way than you envisaged. Discussion is often the best means by which a fuller understanding can be achieved... Thus when I ask you to expand upon ideas. What I have tried to do is look at options not seen often when discussing Craftworld or Exodite society. A fair enough point. One must remember, however, that the goal here is not to create something which is "totally novel", but rather your fairly average, 'normal' craftworld colony world. GW moonwalks around topics by just going "Erm, well that's just that world..." Again, however, with reference to the above presented ideas on the importance of Ancestors you will not only that I've got that already with 'standard' craftworld eldar society/government. Perhaps not in the same way as you, but to find that out you're going to have to ask questions about my own approach... Since this isn't my project and I can't detail my ideas at this point I'll humbly go back into lurk mode. Not being 'your' project doesn't mean that you cannot comment! Throw out the ideas that you have. They might not be accepted, but equally they might be... You might be asked to expand on certain ideas, modify others... but, heck, I'm always up for new and interesting approaches. LordFenric... Erm, what to say? Hmmmn. Yup! ;D
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