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Post by CELS on Apr 17, 2004 8:12:39 GMT -5
Ah. In that case, I guess this Eldar ship could have a few smaller craft on its hull, but they'd be a lot slower and less armed and armoured than the Imperial Fury Interceptors, I imagine. Perfect for scouting. Not perfect if you're caught in the open.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 17, 2004 13:38:02 GMT -5
I don't know if the Eldar attack craft have some kind of special engines that can go forever without fuel... There is little consistent information the propulsion systems used by eldar. It is suggested that they use 'solar sails' but this is self-evidently non-sensical if it is to conform as imaged and described in the 'fluff'. It is also suggested that they have 'anti-gravity', i.e. all those vypers, jet bikes, etc. Other 'fluff' mentions 'plasma' plumes, more so for terrestrial operations than not... Again, this last is not surprising given that even GW knows that solar sails don't work in an atmosphere... So, yet again, more detail is required. Based upon the supposed performance evidence by eldar vessels, some form of gravitic propulsion system seems required (which is why I was so intrigued and impressed about Sojourner's suggestion, though that also doesn't fit). Though this again depends on just how the Imperial system works...  (That is they don't work in a system other than GW's where they can say "It works because we says it works and - look! - it all works in the game...") But then, I suppose they wouldn't use their engines so much, but rather glide unnoticed through space when they reach an appropriate speed. It is likely that all ships would do this, whether eldar or Imperial. And I believe Eldar attack craft (fighters anyway) only have one crewmember, so oxygen shouldn't be a problem. Well, the smaller ships that I'm envisaging would be slightly larger than a 'fighter', doubling up as 'high guard/scout'. I don't see why the small craft of this scout ship would have the same capabilities of the attack craft used in space battles, and be one third the size. [/b][/quote] Erm, they're not going to have. No ship has been really modelled in GURPS yet. The point being that the small ships would have certain 'offensive' capabilities which would be less than those of the 'larger' craft (assuming that they have the same rough concept/function). Trying to get them to integrate into the wider scheme of things (i.e. BFG) would require some wangling with, for me, the "space opera combat system" of GURPS Compendium II but there we go. I'd need for someone to post me BFG statistics to be able to do this... You could always design such a craft using GURPS or whatever, but that doesn't exactly make fluff more consistent, which is what we're trying to do. It is not what we are solely trying to do. We're also trying to make the universe accessible to RP'ers... There is always going to be a negotiation between the two. If there is not then all we're left with is a wargame project, in which case we can abandon half of the workload of the project and just continue with longer descriptions than GW produces (which we already have done). Sorry... I'm just particularly sensitive that RP'ers able to throw in the effort as well. Let us be inclusive rather than exclusive, as much as possible. (After all, I have no interest in the wargame side of things and would hate to be excluded from "my own" project! ) Now, if someone wishes to - how shall I say? - 'fill me in' on the details of BFG so that at the beginning any such designs that I make I can be, erm, as consistent as possible. Of course, that still doesn't put a halt to the problems that already exist in the 'fluff' on the eldar, their technology, etc. Ah. In that case, I guess this Eldar ship could have a few smaller craft on its hull, but they'd be a lot slower and less armed and armoured than the Imperial Fury Interceptors, I imagine. Perfect for scouting. Not perfect if you're caught in the open. An eldar vessel will, technically, be able to outperform any Imperial vessel of similar design and function. Balancing a 'scout/fighter' against a dedicated fighter is more delicate... The one problem of the eldar being more advanced. The RPG statistics will have to reflect this even if the wargame statistics do not. (And of course negotiating the two is radically interesting...) Kage |
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Post by CELS on Apr 17, 2004 14:10:46 GMT -5
There is little consistent information the propulsion systems used by eldar. It is suggested that they use 'solar sails' but this is self-evidently non-sensical if it is to conform as imaged and described in the 'fluff'. Are you saying that no Eldar ships should have solar sails, or this particular ship and its craft won't have them? All Eldar ships of destroyer size and up seem to have solar sails according to GW, and the only Eldar craft I've seen in space that are smaller than destroyers, do not have solar sails. Though this again depends on just how the Imperial system works... BFG just mentions "oversized thrusters and attitude jets"... (That is they don't work in a system other than GW's where they can say "It works because we says it works and - look! - it all works in the game...") LMAO ;D It is likely that all ships would do this, whether eldar or Imperial. Erm... good point. Well, the smaller ships that I'm envisaging would be slightly larger than a 'fighter', doubling up as 'high guard/scout'. Realising of course that Eldar fighters are similar size as Imperial fighters. That is, close to jumbo-jets, at least as large as Boeing 737s. By ship, I take it that you mean the "mother ship" that will also carry a few smaller craft. Could we find an appropriate class for this "ship", please? Could we call it a corvette or something? Trying to get them to integrate into the wider scheme of things (i.e. BFG) would require some wangling with, for me, the "space opera combat system" of GURPS Compendium II but there we go. I'd need for someone to post me BFG statistics to be able to do this... Statistics for BFG eldar attack craft and imperial attack raft? There are none. They are treated pretty much like special weapons in the game, almost like torpedoes. The Eldar craft are better though, with Eldar fighters usually outfighting Imperial fighters, and Eldar bombers being more maneuverable and dangerous than their Imperial counterparts. There would be statistics for Eldar aircraft in Epic, I think, but I'm not sure if these are also capable of venturing into space. It is not what we are solely trying to do. We're also trying to make the universe accessible to RP'ers... There is always going to be a negotiation between the two. Of course. But I don't see why it's a problem to simply assume that attack craft are the size of jumbojets, since that's what GW tells us, and from there assume that if attack craft are made smaller than jumbojets, they will obviously be slower, less armed and have lower range. I don't think we should ignore the size that GW gives. We might similarly find that Imperial battleships are ridiculously large, but that's what 40k is like. Things are big. Make battleships and attack craft, and it might be more realistic, but it's not 40k. More like Star Wars. Sorry... I'm just particularly sensitive that RP'ers able to throw in the effort as well. Let us be inclusive rather than exclusive, as much as possible. Of course. But I don't think that the project will lose its value to RP'ers, simply because we follow GW's fluff on space attack craft. (After all, I have no interest in the wargame side of things and would hate to be excluded from "my own" project! ) There goes my plan to take over the project  Now, if someone wishes to - how shall I say? - 'fill me in' on the details of BFG so that at the beginning any such designs that I make I can be, erm, as consistent as possible. There might not be too many details in BFG, but there are enough to stop me from writing them all. What in particular do you want to know? An eldar vessel will, technically, be able to outperform any Imperial vessel of similar design and function. Yeah, an Eldar Darkstar fighter will outperform an Imperial Fury interceptor (except in speed, where they appear to be roughly the same). But we're talking about the craft mounted on this small "ship", which will in all probability be smaller than the Eldar Darkstar fighter, and thus not of similar design and function as an Imperial Fury Interceptor. Thus, I assume that the Fury class Interceptor would be more heavily armed (and possibly armoured) than these smaller Eldar craft, and in all likelihood faster. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 17, 2004 15:10:57 GMT -5
Are you saying that no Eldar ships should have solar sails, or this particular ship and its craft won't have them? No, no, no, noooo... Just that as 'solar sails' they do not offer a plausible explanation of propulsion. Again, this is why I was particularly excited about Sojourner's suggestion of "solar cells" (i.e. power generation rather than propulsion). It's a shame that it doesn't fit to the 'fluff'... <damn> So it's more a case of determing a use for the pesky buggers than ignoring them! BFG just mentions "thrusters and oversized attitude jets"... The terminology implies reaction mass being ejected. I'm fairly sure that I've seen reference to a plasma exhaust in the 'fluff', however. But might just be my imagination... Realising of course that Eldar fighters are similar size as Imperial fighters. That is, close to jumbo-jets, at least as large as Boeing 737s. Which should mean that they're going to out-class them in every regard. (And I wonder why they need to be that big... It just seems to be "GW Syndrome" in operation here, surely?) Could we find an appropriate class for this "ship", please? Could we call it a corvette or something? Sorry, I don't think in classes. That implies a military function, for the most part. I think in displacement tons or volumes! Statistics for BFG eldar attack craft and imperial attack raft? There are none. They are treated pretty much like special weapons in the game, almost like torpedoes. Then I'm going to need information on BFG statistics. I've got SF statistics from WD139/140 times but I've got a feeling that they would be considered outmoded... There would be statistics for Eldar aircraft in Epic, I think, but I'm not sure if these are also capable of venturing into space. I think that it would be reasonable to suggest that they are fully capable of entering space. Again, though, it depends on interpretation of propulsion systems! Of course. But I don't see why it's a problem to simply assume that attack craft are the size of jumbojets, since that's what GW tells us, and from there assume that if attack craft are made smaller than jumbojets, they will obviously be slower, less armed and have lower range. Becuase it's an assumption... Many things can cut into the deal. For example, a smaller ship might have less weapons load and greater volume dedicated to propulsion systems. Remember the "GW Syndrome": the creation of classes of ships means that they're going to be roughly the same in functionalist terms and as an extension of this it means that they're going to be the same size. After all, on the balance of it all, all technologies tend to equal... This is just not the case. Variation in function coupled with variation in tech-level can mean that an eldar 'fighter' is much, much smaller than an Imperial version. Indeed, this would seem to be consistent... but there we go. (I'm also overtly influenced by B5 imagery here; it's always the case but Minister just makes it worse!). I don't think we should ignore the size that GW gives. From the above I would say that we also shouldn't get too tied up in assigning 'classes' and, therefore, sizes when it might not correlate across species... We might similarly find that Imperial battleships are ridiculously large, but that's what 40k is like. Ah, but one can attribute a reason to that which extends across the 'classes' and which not only permits smaller ships but reinforces the nature of Imperial ships in the first place. Indeed, I would argue that this approach is far more interesting than "dings are big" approach of GW... (And, yes, for me GW think like orks... I'm just kidding! <grin> I don't think quite that badly of orks! ) Make battleships and attack craft, and it might be more realistic, but it's not 40k. More like Star Wars. You kind of addressed this yourself. It's a resolution thing more than anything else. Of course. But I don't think that the project will lose its value to RP'ers, simply because we follow GW's fluff on space attack craft. Absolutely true. But conformance without thought will do that. The two should interact, not be dominated. It's like archaeology and history! There might not be too many details in BFG, but there are enough to stop me from writing them all. What in particular do you want to know? Erm, everything. That's why I talked about a 'discussion'... Yeah, an Eldar Darkstar fighter will outperform an Imperial Fury interceptor (except in speed, where they appear to be roughly the same). This is one of those points where I would assume that something else is coming into play that would mean that the 'Darkstar' has a reduced engine capacity, either as a result of size, payload, endurance, function or whatever. Again, it's all about resolution. But we're talking about the craft mounted on this small "ship", which will in all probability be smaller than the Eldar Darkstar fighter, and thus not of similar design and function as an Imperial Fury Interceptor. See what I mean!? Isn't it great! To be honest, I'm working on the principle that the 'small ship' is on the order of around 35-odd metres in length (akin to a modern fighter aerospace fighter). At the moment. Concept is fluidic, however. Thus, I assume that the Fury class Interceptor would be more heavily armed (and possibly armoured) than these smaller Eldar craft, and in all likelihood faster. Gotta love that word 'assume'. I'm going to hold back until I design them! Kage |
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Post by Minister on Apr 17, 2004 15:49:44 GMT -5
Opinions:
1. Eldar capital ships, escorts and smallish ships have a full gravimetric drive system. This is produced by the large fin/sail type structures characteristic of their design.
2. Whilost gravametric drives are highly eficient, they're not easily built onto smaller craft. Therefore smaller vessels use a simpler form of grav drive heavily suplimented by conventional ion drives.
3. There exists a shuttle bay, rather than external rack or full attack craft combat launch bay. Inside this is space for the storage and minor repair of about four light vessels. Whilst armed, they are built primarily for in-system transportation of small numbers of personel.
4. The ship to be designated by NavInt as the Sun-Hawk. Sorry, Kage, but the Manta is already taken as a Tau heavy bomber type thing (I can't remember its' exact clasification). Eldar name will be something apropriate in their blasphemous heathen toungue. ;D
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Post by CELS on Apr 18, 2004 5:26:42 GMT -5
On Minister's opinions: 1. I concur. 2. Sounds reasonable. 3. Also sounds reasonable, as opposed to them being multi-purpose craft that can scout, out-fight dedicated Imperial interceptors, and shuttle crew as well. 4. Sun-Hawk? I'm not 100% in love with this name, but you are the Navy Secretary. What about class? It's not a destroyer. It's not a shuttle. How about Corvette, or Cutter, or maybe just Scout? I prefer Corvette, since it's armed. No, no, no, noooo... Just that as 'solar sails' they do not offer a plausible explanation of propulsion. Again, this is why I was particularly excited about Sojourner's suggestion of "solar cells" (i.e. power generation rather than propulsion). It's a shame that it doesn't fit to the 'fluff'... <damn>
Yeah, that is a shame
The terminology implies reaction mass being ejected. I'm fairly sure that I've seen reference to a plasma exhaust in the 'fluff', however. But might just be my imagination...
Unfortunately, I don't own the novel Shadowpoint, a friend of mine does. If someone on the forum with easier access to that novel could skim through it and look for plasma exhaust from the Eldar fighters that feature there, that would be helpful.
Which should mean that they're going to out-class them in every regard. (And I wonder why they need to be that big... It just seems to be "GW Syndrome" in operation here, surely?)
Probably the GW syndrome, but it could be that they need to be that big in order to be as fast and well-armed as other ships. You could probably make them half the size and give them half the guns, but that would give Imperial (and Ork and whatever other races) interceptors and fighters a clear advantage. Their inertia-dampening field makes them highly maneuverable regardless of their size, so... there's really not much point. They're smaller, and thus harder to hit, but.... not that much harder. I'd prefer the guns.
Now, a bit of information on Eldar attack craft from BFG.
"Just as with their starships, the attack craft of the Eldar benefit greatly from the ancient race's grasp of technology and theskills of their crew. Eldar Darkstar fighters are possibly the most accomplished interceptors there are. Not only are they highly agile and extremely fast (utilising some form of inertia-dampening field that enables them to literally turn on the spot) but their crystal power generation systems allow them to operate for longer periods than other fighters ["Longer periods. Not forever.] This means in a dog-fight with enemy interceptors, even if the Darkstar cannot shoot down its enemy, its adversaries will often be forced to break off earlier, due to lack of fuel and ammunition. The Eagle bomber benefits from a modified version of the holofield generators found on larger vessels, designed to distort the craft's sensor image at closer range."
BFG, p 134
Sorry, I don't think in classes. That implies a military function, for the most part. I think in displacement tons or volumes!
The Imperial Navy would have classed it, if they'd ever seen this ship or a similar one, since the Eldar don't typically inform the Imperial Navy of their ships' function.
Then I'm going to need information on BFG statistics. I've got SF statistics from WD139/140 times but I've got a feeling that they would be considered outmoded...
What statistics?
The Eldar Darkstar fighters move 30 cm a turn (equal to the 30 cm of Imperial Fury interceptors), the Eldar Eagle bombers move 20 cm a turn (equal to the 20 cm of Imperial Starhawk bomber). When normal fighters come into contact with torpedoes, enemy fighters or bombers, the fighters are removed from play along with their adversaries (the logic being that even if they win, they return to refuel). The Eldar fighters stay in play on a D6 roll of 4+.
Eagle Bombers also have special rules, but since this isn't close to a bomber, it's not really relevant.
I think that it would be reasonable to suggest that they are fully capable of entering space. Again, though, it depends on interpretation of propulsion systems!
I suggest that we have no idea, and should be careful in assuming that simply because it would be convenient, rather asking someone who plays Epic.
Becuase it's an assumption... Many things can cut into the deal. For example, a smaller ship might have less weapons load and greater volume dedicated to propulsion systems.
Well, yes... ok, let me attack this from a new angle. BFG tells us that attack craft are roughly the size of jumbojets. When comparing Eldar attack craft to Imperial attack craft, they do not mention anything about the Eldar attack craft being one third the size, but equally powerful, which would be highly relevant. Therefore, we can assume that they are most likely a similar size.
Some assumptions have to be made, obviously, and I do feel that mine is safer than yours.
This is just not the case. Variation in function coupled with variation in tech-level can mean that an eldar 'fighter' is much, much smaller than an Imperial version. Indeed, this would seem to be consistent... but there we go. (I'm also overtly influenced by B5 imagery here; it's always the case but Minister just makes it worse!).
Yes, you do seem overtly influenced with other imagery. Is it consistent that Eldar craft of war are much, much smaller than the Imperial versions?
Compare the Scorpion super-heavy tank with the Imperial Shadowsword. Compare their smaller tanks (wave serpent, falcon, etc) with Imperial tanks. Compare the Eldar Vampire and Phoenix aircraft with the Imperial Thunderbolt. Compare the Eldar Nightwing with the Imperial Lightning.
It seems to me that Eldar craft are typically the same size, if not slightly bigger (though not necessarily heavier), but that they're typically better than Imperial craft in spite of that.
I don't see why space craft would be radically different from this.
From the above I would say that we also shouldn't get too tied up in assigning 'classes' and, therefore, sizes when it might not correlate across species...
I must disagree. The Imperial Navy would assign classes to their enemies, which is why we have Eldar Battleships, Cruisers, Light Cruisers, Frigates, Destroyers, Fighters and bombers.
That the Eldar ships have quite different qualities than their Imperial counterparts of the same class is obvious. Just to illustrate, an Imperial Sword class frigate costs 30 pts in BFG. An Eldar Hellebore class frigate costs 75 pts.
Ah, but one can attribute a reason to that which extends across the 'classes' and which not only permits smaller ships but reinforces the nature of Imperial ships in the first place. Indeed, I would argue that this approach is far more interesting than "dings are big" approach of GW...
Imperial ships are not the only things that are big in 40k. Eldar capital ships are rather large. I guess you could say the same for Eldar craftworlds, Ork kroozers, Ork spacehulks, Necron tombships, Black Fortresses, Kroot warspheres....
In 40k, dings are big ;D
(And, yes, for me GW think like orks... I'm just kidding! <grin> I don't think quite that badly of orks! )
Aaah, this GW-bashing is slowly reaching the originality of Gav-bashing
Absolutely true. But conformance without thought will do that. The two should interact, not be dominated. It's like archaeology and history!
Erm, yeah, exactly 
This is one of those points where I would assume that something else is coming into play that would mean that the 'Darkstar' has a reduced engine capacity, either as a result of size, payload, endurance, function or whatever. Again, it's all about resolution.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by this... 
See what I mean!? Isn't it great! To be honest, I'm working on the principle that the 'small ship' is on the order of around 35-odd metres in length (akin to a modern fighter aerospace fighter). At the moment. Concept is fluidic, however.
Well, if this craft is supposed to have the same range as the Darkstar fighter, have inertial dampeners and maybe even holofields to compliment it as a scout (if it doesn't have holofields, you might as well use the "mothership" for scouting instead), I don't think that's very reasonable. There are Eldar aircraft in 40k that are that size, but without all those extras. |
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Post by Minister on Apr 18, 2004 7:55:27 GMT -5
The Sun-Hawk name is negotiable, but the not being a Manta is important to my feeble little mind. Remember that what we're looking at here is the human designation, and will be completley un-connected to the translation of the Eldar name.
A Cutter is generaly a large shuttle used for transport of personel between ships or ship-to-planet (Eisenhorns' was distinguished by being an armed version of the same). Dictionary definition:
"4. (Naut.) (a) A boat used by ships of war. (b) A fast sailing vessel with one mast, rigged in most essentials like a sloop. A cutter is narrower end deeper than a sloop of the same length, and depends for stability on a deep keel, often heavily weighted with lead. (c) A small armed vessel, usually a steamer, in the revenue marine service; -- also called revenue cutter."
If it were a military vessel, which it seems it might not be, but I'm unsure, then I would put it in as a Corvette:
"A fast, lightly armed warship, smaller than a destroyer, often armed for antisubmarine operations.
An obsolete sailing warship, smaller than a frigate, usually armed with one tier of guns. "
Perhaps a designation such as "Star yacht?"
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Post by CELS on Apr 18, 2004 8:34:10 GMT -5
I am indeed aware of the dictionary's definition of Corvette, which is exactly why I suggested it. After all, the Imperial Navy knows little about what the function of this ship really is. All they know is that it almost crippled one of their ships with its torpedoes. The class "yacht" seems inappropriate then, and it's likely that they would consider it a small warship, even if they guess that it's mostly used for scouting.
PS: Whatever people may think of this project, at least they can't accuse us of not thinking things through ;D
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Post by Minister on Apr 18, 2004 10:00:52 GMT -5
They could probably acuse us of over-thinking some things, though. (Note: I'm not solely taking a dig at Kage. My fleet organisations are as bad if not worse than his Eldar projects for excesiveness and there's plenty more simmilar things going on.) |
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Post by CELS on Apr 18, 2004 10:29:49 GMT -5
What, like me calculating the number of Moderati and Servitors in Legio Lancea? Nonsense (186 and 984 respectively, btw :  |
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Post by Minister on Apr 18, 2004 10:36:54 GMT -5
As an irrelevant aside, how many Moderati are you taking for Imperiators?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 18, 2004 17:50:18 GMT -5
I had a rather nice and long post to reply to this thread and then realised that it was not only unnecessary (for the most part) and that some of my responses were aggressive in response to the way that CELS was bringing across some of his points. It also seems that I've found myself automatically being drawn into the creation of a vessel that will ultimately have a military function. This is one of those things that I wanted to avoid. The ship that I broadly envisioned weas a scout vessel. The fact that it would have sub-vessels was something that I rather liked. (The one that I originally originally had in mind was akin in function that of the scout/courier from Traveller; a vessel which could be used by Outcasts/Rangers, etc. Might still do that, this larger vessel is still quite intriguing.) So, again, it will not be a military vessel so perhaps we should get it out of our heads that it will be attacked military vessels or, indeed, that it is going to show upon the BFG board... Now, to address Minister's (where the 'M' obviously stands for "Minbari-lover"! )... Point #1That seems reasonable. One thing that we would have to do is determine the relative acceleration ranges of Imperial and eldar vessels when we're talking about the reactionless drives. Once we move away from the BFG game it is completely useless to talk about ship movement in terms of 'centimeters' of range or, indeed, a maximum speed of some description. It is also going to be unproductive to post the "solar sail" movement rules. Those are based upon the fact that it is light that is being used as a motive force. I would also be wary of making something up just to replicate this... Point #2While I found the logic dubious at best, I can see the point in reducing reactionless thrusters to 'capital ships' (noting, of course, that Babylon 5 doesn't use the same restrictions for their ships). Perhaps it would be just best to rule that the field created by reactionless thrusters is inimicable to atmospheric utilisation? Yep, but then again I don't have a problem with all eldar vessels using reactionless thrusters... I'm really dubious about this point, however. The "Sun Hawk" (see below) should be able to operate in an atmosphere to conform to overall concept. But requiring another drive system to do this seems... well... I don't know. The idea of the eldar using reaction mass systems just doesn't strike me as right... (More so especially since Imperial ships have performances which outstrip their designs!) Point #3No. Neither of the vessels that I had in mind were to be created for combat, nor were they going to show up on the BFG board, as it were. Four vessels on an external 'limpet' mount. The sub-vessels/shuttles are merely a means of extending the operative capacities of the 'mother vessel'. (Yes, we need some names.) Point #4While I refuse to not name the ship the 'manta' just because the Imperium already has that designation - I at this point remind people that the point is to create non-Imperially biased material! - I also prefer the name Sun-Hawk for the scout/shuttle (sub-vessel). I'll translate it into 'eldar' first, however... In fact... Anar thoron. Okay, that's Sun Eagle but that's close enough... On assigning Imperial names as more important... That they can be assigned as a subsequent act. But unlike GW we are not required to do everything from the Imperial perspective. Thus the eldar could quite readily call it a Manta. What the Imperium called it is, for me as the designer, completely irrelevant. But that's a minor point since I actually prefer the Sun Hawk (Eagle) name... On BFG comments about 'solar sails'... Please note that the BFG reference is talking about motive power, not power generation of other systems. On Classes... My main concern is that by the assignation of a class at this juncture that people will begin to impose restrictions based upon the wargame itself. This is not really appropriate. Let the ship be designed and, yes, some comments made about the wargame side of things but they should not restrict too much. So just in case I'm going to get shouted at I'll repeat myself. I would suggest that using the assignment of warship 'class' from BFG would be a mistake at this point. Function will determine the abilities of the ship and, from there, if an assignment is made then, as they say, fairy snuff. Crystal Power Generation System... Ah, that's definitely not "GW Syndrome". That's Star Trek logic. Give something a cool sounding name and it's sci-fi. Hmmn, 'stacked atomic chain power plants'... Okay, it's both "GW" and "ST Syndrome"!  Rather than ascribe yet another power generation system, perhaps it is better to integrate it into other eldar power generation systems. Since I've previously been working on the premise that the eldar utilise wraithbone to generate much of their power (i.e. "Cosmic Power Plant" in GURPS terms) and that this might have been in error I'm all ears... On Size and Function... My argument here is quite simple. All I am suggesting is that since the eldar have a much advanced technology that ships could potentially be smaller. Furthermore that an eldar military ship of a given size and function should outclass an Imperial vessel of the same size and function. (This is because of the 'advanced = smaller' argument.) Reading through what I've said in the past I can see how my comments were misinterpreted (i.e. they were partially misleading). Thus the 'Sun Hawk' will outclass any similarly sized Imperial craft which shares the same function. Indeed, eldar vessels might show greater flexibility since they can pack multi-functionality into something which would require a much larger vessel in the Imperium. (Furthermore, the Imperial approach to technology might compound this problem.) Reading through the statistics posted I'm unsurprised to see that fighters are the same size, move at the same speeds, etc. Such is the requirements for wargame balance and the extension into subsequent imagery. When one introduces the concept of definite differences in technological accomplishment then, on a scale other than the wargame, it becomes a significant issue. The Imperium might use room-sized supercomputers, but the eldar could quite feasibly have desk-top mounted supercomputers... as a somewhat ludicrous example. On Eldar "Military Philosophy" and Ship Design... This is the harder thing to address. The eldar have the technology to make their ships incredibly powerful yet they do not do this. GW would say that this is because they prefer 'hit and run' tactics, but not quite sure that this works on a more detailed analysis... But this is something to discuss at a later date. (As is the fact that the eldar do not use 'power shields',e tc., etc.) On GW 'Bashing'... It is so easy to do! Seriously, though, my only problem is that they don't take the 'fluff' beyond the limitations of the wargame. This is not surprising since, after all, the wargame is where the majority of their fans are held. But this is a minior point that is completely OffT. One point that is OnT, however, is that there shouldn't be a knee jerk reaction against something which does not conform to the specific letter of GW 'fluff'. More so in areas where there is little information in the first place and there is the 'fear' that one should not over-create something just in case GW contradicts this at a later date. (E.g. my approach to the eldar, for example; if GW later contradicts it I will either integrate it into my more flexible structure or have to give serious consideration which I consider to be the 'better'.) On OffT Topics... While I welcome these for the most part, let's at least keep them on the right species! Kage |
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