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Post by Caladors on Mar 10, 2004 18:41:38 GMT -5
no i guess your right they would most proberly have walkers and the like not liking the idea of fully automated systems (perhaps a bad experince that we could write into the history of this sector) but the exodites are completely sperate they have nothing to do with the craftworld the see them as people whom lost there way.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 10, 2004 19:38:45 GMT -5
Yes, you're right. The Exodites have absolutely nothing to do with this craftworld colony. As to fully automated systems... I'm afraid that they are going to be evidenced unless I can hear a concrete reason other than a feeling of 'unease'. At present the Infinity Circuit - yes, this is also going to be present - is an esoteric computer systems, but a computer system nonetheless. Eldar are able to psychically interact with it either through the use of simple keyboard/telepathic commands depending on the nature of the user interface (the lowest level of interaction), the specific creation of an 'avatar' program which acts as proxy for the individual (not also the potential use of the teah-shih, or full interface... A part of this is the creation of semi-autonomous constructs (read: programs) monitored through independent avatar (read: eldar spirit or more developed program) are entirely within this overall vision. For a rough vision of how I interpret the Infinity Circuit and the Eternal Matrix, see the Fiction board for the 'story in progress' that was posted there for purposes of the 'Art' thread. Kage |
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Post by Culeagh on Mar 28, 2004 21:49:41 GMT -5
Hello, I was directed to this forum by Kage while surfing at Eldar Online and have just now found it. This thread was the first one that caught my eye.
Anyway, Since you are emphasizing that this is a craftworld settlement you are visualizing I have to add my opinion that some sort of military presense will be there for defense, recruiting or both. While I am not talking about rows of razorwire, machine guns, guardians running around and fortresses, there is likely to be a humble Aspect Shrine somewhere and it is likely to be of the Esik Kaman. There might even be an Exarch from the craftworld within the shrine at times. But wether or not there are any members of the shrine at the current time is irrelevant. Its influence is likely to be minor (and perhaps unwanted) and I certainly don't know what it looks like.
Depending on the basic nature of the craftworld which is sponsoring this colony it will take up a more or less central location. Obviously, if this is a Biel Tan sponsored colony its influence will figure very prominently in local politics and might even be the hub of the community. For Alaitoc or a less militaristic craftworld it will be on the fringes of the society. But at any rate, if it is there, some of the common government structures would likely be built off of or near it as its expanses are a natural gathering place and the entire community could seek refuge there in times of danger and war or to organize for a hunt or contest or theater or whatever. Any webway portal to the crafworld would be located here, where it can be guarded or at least watched.
Thanks for listening, Culeagh out.
Happy Hunting
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Post by malika on Mar 29, 2004 10:51:13 GMT -5
I think there would hardly be any militairy presence, some rangers at most and then maybe the equipment to supply a certain percentage of the population to become guardians if something does happen. So they could hold out for a short time, untill reinforcements from the Craftworld would arrive.
Would the colony be big? I mean would it cover the entire planet? If not, would they only have one small settlement? Or do they have like small villages on more parts of the planet.
Which brings me to my next point: transportation? How do they travel across the planet? I dont really see them travelling around in Wave Serpents, that would be the same as us going to work in a tank for example?
Would they have a transport vehicle, or would they use animals like the Exodites?
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 29, 2004 12:02:02 GMT -5
Hello, I was directed to this forum by Kage while surfing at Eldar Online and have just now found it. This thread was the first one that caught my eye. I did!? Darn my failing memory. Regardless, welcome. Glad to see that you dropped in with the eldar first giving them the prominence that they deserve. Anyway, Since you are emphasizing that this is a craftworld settlement you are visualizing... Craftworld colony, yes. But one which has developed significantly enough to have more than one settelement but which is still broadly tied to the external and internal policies of the home craftworld. I have to add my opinion that some sort of military presense will be there for defense, recruiting or both. Agreed... The principle objects to the many of the arguments above was that people were suggesting a significant heavy military presence (starships etc.) which I envisage primarily a light military presence and, even then, not a drastically significant one. How this would translate to wargame terms I've no idea at the moment...  there is likely to be a humble Aspect Shrine somewhere and it is likely to be of the Esik Kaman. I'm surprised... I don't actually recognise that term so it sounds like it's probably an "eldarisation" of one of the Aspect Shrines. Dire Avenger? There might even be an Exarch from the craftworld within the shrine at times. I personally envisage that Shrines are formed around the Exarchs and it is rarer not to have an Exarch than it is. Of course, just how old that Exarch is would be another thing... and I certainly don't know what it looks like. Depends on the Aspect in question but, broadly, I do have an idea so that's okay. Depending on the basic nature of the craftworld which is sponsoring this colony it will take up a more or less central location. Obviously, if this is a Biel Tan sponsored colony its influence will figure very prominently in local politics and might even be the hub of the community. For Alaitoc or a less militaristic craftworld it will be on the fringes of the society. I'm afraid that I'm not entirely clear on what you're trying to say here. To which society are you referring to? If it's the eldar, than the colony takes a direct involvement in the home craftworld which it, in essence, remains a part of. Only if 'independence' is desired or acquired through 'cultural momentum' will the situation change. But at any rate, if it is there, some of the common government structures would likely be built off of or near it as its expanses are a natural gathering place and the entire community could seek refuge there in times of danger and war or to organize for a hunt or contest or theater or whatever. Ah, now I might have an idea what you're saying. There is going to be a Clan Council (etc.) present on the craftworld colony and a structured derived from the basic form present on the craftworld itself. The nature of residence in this facility is up for grabs, although I'm not entirely sure that I want to subscribe ot the 'castle' model for the eldar military. I'm rather more fond of diffuse models of defence that draw more into the overall strategy that they are supposedly meant to employ... Any webway portal to the crafworld would be located here, where it can be guarded or at least watched. I'm guessing that there are going to be more than one Webway portal, though whether the others are 'subportals' keyed to a primary is another question. Webway physics gets interesting at this point, more so since it's a matter entirely within interpretation. (E.g. the primary Webway portal could actually be located in space!) Thanks for listening, Culeagh out. The question is whether this means that it was a single post! Hope not... I think there would hardly be any militairy presence... For some reason I'm reminded of Braveheart. Not sure why. some rangers at most and then maybe the equipment to supply a certain percentage of the population to become guardians... Mateiral considerations are intimately related to the nature of eldar psychic engineering. Perhaps turn your browser to the RPG board and the discussion there on modelling pyskers in the 40k universe. Consistency requires that a bit more information be put into the Anargo sector than in the wargame... or even Inquisitor. Would the colony be big? I mean would it cover the entire planet? If not, would they only have one small settlement? Or do they have like small villages on more parts of the planet. Settlement is something that I see as diffuse, dependent entirely upon Clan and individual activity. Time-related aggregation would, however, be useful and possibly related to 'centralisation' of Clan Council. Which brings me to my next point: transportation? How do they travel across the planet? I dont really see them travelling around in Wave Serpents, that would be the same as us going to work in a tank for example? Depends on how they want to travel across the planet. Use of webway portals for short journeys... walking... use of grav-vehicles... teleportation... whatever. There are a whole lot of options open to the eldar which means that they don't have to travel around in military transports! Kage |
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Post by Culeagh on Mar 29, 2004 17:00:09 GMT -5
Despite my preference for playing Space Marines these days, my ears are still pointy. Just what are these external and internal policies? I was trying (rather ineloquently) to ask this same question when I was stammering about Biel Tan and Alaitoc craftworld. I should qualify my question also. Is this a 'locals only' sort of colony, meaning they don't want anything to do with anyone that is not specifically from the Craftworld or it's subsidiaries and affiliates, a Biel Tan policy. Or are they more open to outsiders vis-a-vis trade and diplomacy, Alaitoc influence? The actual craftworld name is largely irrelevant. I was only using these to names as an example of what I was looking for. Having said that, what is the name of the crafworld that sponsors this community? Esik Caman is Eldar name for the Dire Avenger Shrine according to this site. I was imagining very little military as well. Maybe a small group of Dire Avengers and a Swooping Hawk or two. Maybe even some jetbikes for scouting and patrol. Nothing heavy or that would scare the population into thinking the soldiers were actually needed. It seems to me that one of the key Eldar methods of defense is to remain undetected, so having a starship and fighter/attack aircraft and grav-tanks would just go a long way towards letting someone notice the settlement on accident. If these things are ever needed they can easily be brought in ahead of time assuming some Seer was on the ball. I think it would certainly require an Exarch to start up a 'branch'. But that does not mean that he would remain there all of the time, at least for me. An exarch would be drawn away from a peaceful community every time the craftworld got involved in a scrap with whatever they typically scrap with. What I was getting at is: depending on the basic nature of the craftworld that sponsors this colony, any Aspect Shrine or Clan or whatever will have a variable level of political influence when dealing with local, planet-bound politics depending on the Craftworld's basic prejudices. For instance, if the craftworld subscribes to Biel-Tan dogma then the poeple on the ground will share that same ideal making the shrine a very important and prominent part of the community. Likewise if the craftworld is less beligerant and militaristic there will be less desire and need for a powerful military influence, and it's role and need within the community will be lesser while greater focus will be placed on diplomacy and trade. As to the Eldar castle, I think we are both right. The actual fighters will go out and use their standard methods of warfare. But the very young and very old need somewhere to go. If they can't be evacuated off-planet they can take shelter within the Shrine. I was also trying to make the actual structure a part of the community rather than a foreboding place of warfare training. To me the Eldar view the warrior path as perfectly natural and it can offer alot more than 'kill, kill, kill', hence the hunting and theater, etc. I guess it seems very medieval, but that wasn't my aim. Just wanted something for the Aspect Warriors to feel responsible for!... You are probably more right than I am here. It wouldn't make sense for there to be only one 'rabbit hole' for the Eldar to use if things got ugly. But having one within the shrine makes sense because the shrine can be easily secured from the craftworld. No way man! To me the Craftworld Eldar are an aloof and almost lazy society. Many of their inventions will work from a 'why should I be bothered to that' perspective. So they'd probably have built webway portals and the like to get from one beautiful mountain to the ocean's coast without having to do much actual travelling, for instance. Having said that, I'll have a really fast jetbike please! |
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 1, 2004 15:51:26 GMT -5
Incidentally, figuring out how eldar 'psykers' - and psykers in general - as well as their 'psychic engineering' coupled with their technological base are all for grabs. Point your way to the RPG forum for a discussion on this or, if you don't mind going over to Portent, there is another thread on "modelling 40k psykers in GURPS" which is getting quite interesting. Always does when Chaoswithchains drops in... <fond memories of the now inappropriate discussion of Mage the Ascension and a cross-over with 40k! > Despite my preference for playing Space Marines these days, my ears are still pointy. SM are cool as well... just nothing compares to the eldar. Just what are these external and internal policies? I was trying (rather ineloquently) to ask this same question when I was stammering about Biel Tan and Alaitoc craftworld. Darn, you're calling my generic 'bluff'. <grin> At the moment the source of the craftworld colony has not been identified. I've been waiting to hear a concrete suggestion since I wasn't overtly fond on creating a purely 'fan craftworld' but equally the most obvious examples were all lacking: they were quite simply far too cliched and based around the limited concepts generated by wargame 'fluff' desirous of balance in army lists as well as looking for a unique 'image'. I should qualify my question also. Is this a 'locals only' sort of colony, meaning they don't want anything to do with anyone that is not specifically from the Craftworld or it's subsidiaries and affiliates, a Biel Tan policy. Or are they more open to outsiders vis-a-vis trade and diplomacy, Alaitoc influence? I would say that the 'craftworld influence' is severely over-rated in terms of 'generic craftworld information'. Rather, the 'influence' that you're talking about is the manifestation of internal/external policy as moderated by the various Clans as well as the unique 'cultural vector' achieved by a given craftworld. So what does this mean? Generically the eldar are slightly more homogenous than many would argue. The Clans are the 'glue' to eldar society, although moderated by the peculiar history of a given craftworld. Thus craftworls operate in a manner dictated by the 'fluff', although specific motivations can differ significantly. I like creating complexities for the 'fluff' which is otherwise 'transparent'; use it or don't, it's your loss. So to answer the question, internal/external policy will therefore depending upon the selected 'home craftworld'. This will manifest through the gross 'orientation' of the craftworld ("Biel-tan esque" or "Alatoic esque", etc.) but is not as singularly important as determining the specific features of the craftworld as you might think... Incidentally, figuring out how eldar 'psykers' - and psykers in general - as well as their 'psychic engineering' coupled with their technological base are all for grabs. Point your way to the RPG forum for a discussion on this or, if you don't mind going over to Portent, there is another thread on "modelling 40k psykers in GURPS" which is getting quite interesting. Always does when Chaoswithchains drops in... <fond memories of the now inappropriate discussion of Mage the Ascension and a cross-over with 40k! > Despite my preference for playing Space Marines these days, my ears are still pointy. SM are cool as well... just nothing compares to the eldar. Just what are these external and internal policies? I was trying (rather ineloquently) to ask this same question when I was stammering about Biel Tan and Alaitoc craftworld. Darn, you're calling my generic 'bluff'. <grin> At the moment the source of the craftworld colony has not been identified. I've been waiting to hear a concrete suggestion since I wasn't overtly fond on creating a purely 'fan craftworld' but equally the most obvious examples were all lacking: they were quite simply far too cliched and based around the limited concepts generated by wargame 'fluff' desirous of balance in army lists as well as looking for a unique 'image'. I should qualify my question also. Is this a 'locals only' sort of colony, meaning they don't want anything to do with anyone that is not specifically from the Craftworld or it's subsidiaries and affiliates, a Biel Tan policy. Or are they more open to outsiders vis-a-vis trade and diplomacy, Alaitoc influence? I would say that the 'craftworld influence' is severely over-rated in terms of 'generic craftworld information'. Rather, the 'influence' that you're talking about is the manifestation of internal/external policy as moderated by the various Clans as well as the unique 'cultural vector' achieved by a given craftworld. So what does this mean? Generically the eldar are slightly more homogenous than many would argue. The Clans are the 'glue' to eldar society, although moderated by the peculiar history of a given craftworld. Thus craftworls operate in a manner dictated by the 'fluff', although specific motivations can differ significantly. I like creating complexities for the 'fluff' which is otherwise 'transparent'; use it or don't, it's your loss. The actual craftworld name is largely irrelevant. I was only using these to names as an example of what I was looking for. Having said that, what is the name of the crafworld that sponsors this community? Having said that, what is the name of the crafworld that sponsors this community? See the above. Again, though, I do not see this as being as important as some might argue for the specific nature of the craftworld colony although it will obviously colour things... Esik Caman is Eldar name for the Dire Avenger Shrine... Never came across that myself, but it seemed the obvious Shrine given what you were trying to say. I was imagining very little military as well. Maybe a small group of Dire Avengers and a Swooping Hawk or two. The one thing that you'll have to forgive me for is that I don't actually pay that much attention to the wargame and this can - not necessarily does - create specific limitations to my understanding of the 40k universe. Or, rather, my understanding of the 40k universe as determined by others... |
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 1, 2004 15:52:05 GMT -5
For me determination of 'standing army' presence is going to be somewhat tempered by a determination of the overall population. Maybe even some jetbikes for scouting and patrol. I'm sure that if they wanted them there they could have them there... Nothing heavy or that would scare the population into thinking the soldiers were actually needed. LOL... There is that, although I think that the eldar are as a race more than aware of the danger that they are in at any given time and make decisions based upon, for the most part, an awareness of the greater majority of the facts. Things like the Infinity Circuit are going to allow significant information exchange, both in terms of the colony and extra-colony affairs (i.e. craftworld)... Indeed, I can definitely imagine that the IC in one form or another is accessible from anywhere on the planet or system, while specific immersion varies as a function of proximity to 'significant' communication nodes. It seems to me that one of the key Eldar methods of defense is to remain undetected... Yes, definitely... although whack yourself on a planet and your 'invisibility' is automatically negated, at least in terms of physical detectability. (I'm rather fond of the idea that they still have their position hidden from the minions of Chaos; it just makes sense to me!) so having a starship and fighter/attack aircraft and grav-tanks would just go a long way towards letting someone notice the settlement on accident. Well, I'm fairly sure that the power output of grav-tanks isn't going to be that noticeable from a distance by Imperial or other technologies... If these things are ever needed they can easily be brought in ahead of time assuming some Seer was on the ball. Or, perhaps, a Scout... or Ranger... or whomever who comes across the intelligence! Sorry, just making sure that the Seers are, as always, not over-mentioned in the material for the colony craftworld. I think it would certainly require an Exarch to start up a 'branch'. A fair enough point. What I was getting at is: depending on the basic nature of the craftworld that sponsors this colony, any Aspect Shrine or Clan or whatever will have a variable level of political influence when dealing with local, planet-bound politics depending on the Craftworld's basic prejudices. Ah, then a reasonable point. But one which can be over-stated and, I feel, is commonly done so. The influence of a given craftworld can be moderated by the specific Clan representation, for one thing, or the specific purpose of a colony... Not every aspect of the craftworld must be represented. For instance, if the craftworld subscribes to Biel-Tan dogma then the poeple on the ground will share that same ideal making the shrine a very important and prominent part of the community. So using this as an example, then yes it would be true if the Dragon Clan (frex) retains prominence. It would be tempered if the Phoenix Clan retained prominence, and more so if it was the Spider Clan... I was also trying to make the actual structure a part of the community rather than a foreboding place of warfare training. Ah, a person after my own heart. I think that we'll do fine when we can moderate our approaches. Indeed... check your PMs out for the next few days. To me the Eldar view the warrior path as perfectly natural and it can offer alot more than 'kill, kill, kill', hence the hunting and theater, etc. I guess it seems very medieval, but that wasn't my aim. I avoid too an overt a early, middle and later medieval believing that GW have gone completely over the board on this. However, Aspect Warriors do have spare time to practice other activities... To me the Craftworld Eldar are an aloof and almost lazy society. Aloof, yes. Lazy? No. Many of their inventions will work from a 'why should I be bothered to that' perspective. So they'd probably have built webway portals and the like to get from one beautiful mountain to the ocean's coast without having to do much actual travelling, for instance. Again, I disagree. This ties into a fundamental interpretation of eldar society and it is so easy to read into it human perspectives. The idea of a completely indolent lifestyle could be seen from the outside, but I really would argue that it takes very little into account with regards to eldar longevity, culture, etc. Having said that, I'll have a really fast jetbike please! <grin>  Kage |
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Post by malika on Apr 1, 2004 16:36:06 GMT -5
Im curious is there such a thing as an Eldar scientist? I mean some seer something who like to investigate or explore?
What about some [insert name for an eldar biologist] out in the jungle with a few rangers, looking for interesting speciments of plants or animals?
Or would this be more of an outcast thing to do?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 1, 2004 17:00:20 GMT -5
Im curious is there such a thing as an Eldar scientist? I mean some seer something who like to investigate or explore? What about some [insert name for an eldar biologist] out in the jungle with a few rangers, looking for interesting speciments of plants or animals? Or would this be more of an outcast thing to do? The scientiest would, for me, be covered under the Path of the Seeker in the numerous Ways therein. There's a lovely short answer! Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 3, 2004 9:32:05 GMT -5
Invention and ingenuity have kind of disappeared from Eldar culture; their belief that their way is the way that Eldar are supposed to be for evermore sort of stifles it.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 3, 2004 10:43:17 GMT -5
Funny, I don't get that impression of the eldar at all. While they are contemptuous of the other races, for the most part, the idea that they believe that they have an idealised culture and technology falls in the face of not only logic but observable evidence. So I'm afraid I don't agree with you at all Sojourner... Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 3, 2004 13:20:03 GMT -5
Of course there is some inventiveness; that's what makes an intelligent species.
However, it's not on the level of the Tau, for example, or present-day Earth. I recall a quote, possibly on this site itself, that basically pointed out that the only significant advancement in human intellect in the last century or two was the belief that Tomorrow will be different to today...
In essence, I don't think the Eldar would see science and technology as any grand plan of furtherment, merely a means to a specific end to be explored, used and discarded as required.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 3, 2004 15:59:20 GMT -5
Hmmn, okay. That's a good point... I don't suppose you've read the book by Baxter have you? It's called Ring or something (cannot quite remember at the moment and too lazy to look it up on Google/Amazon). In there there is a rather interesting group of 'gorilla/apes' whose scientific ability is quite astounding; they make intuitive leaps in a matter of seconds that would astound 'humans'. (I seem to recall an example of one of them, as a child, coming up with the laws of gravitation, planetary motion and hints at special relativity by looking and pondering a few random shapes on the floor in their nursery)... Perhaps that would be a good overall image? The eldar scientist is as much a rediscoverer and someone that pushes the boundaries forward? It still means that there are going to be 'cutting edge' eldar that strive for some of the lost knowledge of the ancient eldar, but also something which ties into the image of the eldar as 'backward looking' and traditional? Maybe... something to work on? (And there, just to go to show that I'm reactive to stimulating discussion!) Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 3, 2004 16:06:13 GMT -5
My quote was reiterating my point that Eldar don't make great leaps of intellect; all the advancement they're inclined to is practical applications that have no grand significance for them; an Eldar wouldn't think of pushing forward into greater enlightenment as we do now, rather they would feel, as you suggested, that they were questing to rediscover an ancient treasure, much as with the Adeptus Mechanicus and their STC. The Eldar have more of a calculating approach, however, knowing that they are limited by practicality rather than by mystery. There is no wonderment in discovery for an Eldar, beyond the little jolt of fierce pride and defiance upon returning some old piece of property to the race.
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