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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 27, 2004 19:26:55 GMT -5
General idea – while Mechanicus seek for any kind of data, I’d prefer to limit them with more ‘natural sciences’, leaving humanities and esotericism mostly to others. That 'mostly' can be problematic since it would be too easy to go down the route of intellectual snobbery seen commonly in the 'hard sciences' (i.e. "everything else is just stamp collecting"). (For example, at 'High School' there were some of the opinion that biology wasn't really a 'proper science' because at that level there was not extensive modelling with mathematics evident in the course.) With that said, however, it would be too easy to slip the other way. Things like 'history' would, for example, be the individual concern of worlds as well as the broader example of the adeptus administratum who maintain records on the Imperium in general. Archaeology, on the other hand, smacks of the adeptus mechanicus given the GW proclivity for sticking words in front of others to try and make it sound 'sci-fi', e.g. xenoarchaeology, archaeotech, cyber-whatever, etc. Psychology might be argued to be cuspal, falling on either side. From the generalisations of 'pulp psychology' arguably seen in group concilling sessions (sweeping generalisation, I know, but used as illustration) to something like neurophyschology, socio-biology, etc. Well, just a quick point. And the 'private school' thing raises the issue of Education once more... we really should begin to tie down the 'stuff' that isn't really covered by the wargame 'fluff', moving through preference as much as possible (i.e. mine own included).
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Post by Zholud on Dec 28, 2004 4:08:01 GMT -5
That 'mostly' can be problematic since it would be too easy to go down the route of intellectual snobbery seen commonly in the 'hard sciences' Given that 40k-verse is, as well as all artificial universes, just a mirror of reality, such snobbism can be seen as a good thing to introduce. After all, it seems indirectly confirmed throughout the fluff. For example medics or managers or historians usually assigned to other bodies. It is important to recall that no organisation should be end-all or all-encompassing… thus, IMHO we need to merge all ‘arts/humanities’ in a single subject for Mechanicus. Or at least state that their historical knowledge is generally inferior to that of e.g. Administratum. Archaeology, on the other hand, smacks of the adeptus mechanicus Agreed. Psychology might be argued to be cuspal, falling on either side I guess psychology in modern sense in not widely studied by them. Seems they see all-things-human as imperfect machines, thus all psychological issues are mostly considered as failures of machinery. Crowd control, etc seems more fitting to Ministorum or Administratum. Of course Mechanicus are interested in bio-chemistry and its effects. And the 'private school' thing raises the issue of Education once more... I guess we reached broad agreements on this. There are schools of Administratum, Ecclesiarchy, Mechanicus – Imperium-wide agencies, as well as private schools/universities up to sector-level. The latter often indirectly linked to former.
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Post by CELS on Jan 28, 2005 8:55:55 GMT -5
Maybe I'm biased after studying psychology, but I definitely see it as a potential research area for the Adeptus Mechanicus. I don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus would view the human mind as something wholly different from the body. The brain would be nothing but an advanced computer. They'd be very interested in studying the mechanisms of the human mind. Some psychologists, have reduced the human ability to learn to a few extremely simple mechanisms. I'm sure you're familiar with Pavlov and his dogs, and you americans have probably heard of Skinner. At the moment, I don't see any reason to change what I've written on the Collegia. Anyway, I'm continuing work on the Adeptus Mechanicus now, since the rest of the project seems to have dried up at the moment. Back to the Essay discussion. Wee! Sorry for the late reply by the way. This is what happens when I read an interesting post, and decide to reply to it later I see your point. 'Senior novice' is a bit contradictory, like 'Rookie veteran' or 'expert apprentice'. I'll think on this. They are supposed to be higher. I'll add the fact that they also have a lot of authority, but rarely bother using it. Who's got time for micromanagement when you've got billions and billions of terabytes worth of information coming in every second? To a Magos Errant, a quest for the STC might be more honourable than being the head of a factorium or whatever. But then, to each his own. A scientist would consider the holy pursuit of knowledge better than going around fighting aliens and mutants. And a 'sectoral boss' would consider the control of the Adeptus Mechanicus 'meta-machine' more important than something else. Or then, perhaps the Magi of the Mechanicus have enough insight to realise that they're all important cogs of a holy machine, and that they're not better than anyone else. Except those Ecclessiarchy dummies The way I read the HH CCG, the Mechanicum is simply another name for the Cult Mechanicus. In other words, the Adeptus Mechanicus. I'll double-check this though. Mwahahah... oh, alright. Depends on what you mean by 'mostly'. Knowledge is power. To me, it doesn't make sense for the Adeptus Mechanicus to leave history in the hands of the Inquisiton, and especially their nemesis, the Ecclessiarchy. Considering the animosity between the Mechanicus and the Ecclessiarchy, how do you think the Ecclessiarchy history books portrays the Mechanicus? Better yet, how reliable do you think the history books of the Ecclessiarchy are? The Adeptus Mechanicus strives for independence (admittedly, there is some conflict on this point), and I don't really see some arrogant know-it-all Arch Magos ringing the doorbell of the Inquisition or *shudder* the Ecclessiarchy to ask for some old history books. Nope. Better leave history to the un-biased and holy Adeptus Mechanicus
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 28, 2005 19:34:34 GMT -5
Maybe I'm biased after studying psychology, but I definitely see it as a potential research area for the Adeptus Mechanicus. Perhaps "neuropsychology" or something similar. Bodies can be reprogrammed (servitors), making 'psychology' potentially reviewed more as programming (in the C+, FORTRAN) sense than psychology as it is known today. The brain would be nothing but an advanced computer. They'd be very interested in studying the mechanisms of the human mind. LOL.. perhaps a Humanist philosophy, those individuals who wish to see the 'human' in the tech? At the moment, I don't see any reason to change what I've written on the Collegia. I'll have another look to see if there is anything that I radically disagree with that would prevent it being used. Anyway, I'm continuing work on the Adeptus Mechanicus now, since the rest of the project seems to have dried up at the moment. Arguably there is a rather obvious reason for this beyond a mistaken approach of the "Mission Statement". If people were really up for world-building it would have been good for them to put their world in the UWP/concept post and get them out of the way once and for all... But whatever. Knowledge is power. To me, it doesn't make sense for the Adeptus Mechanicus to leave history in the hands of the Inquisiton, and especially their nemesis, the Ecclessiarchy. It is like that each of the organisations of the adeptus terra maintain their own records. Why should the adeptus astartes be different in the independent recording of their history that is parallel to that of the adeptus administratum? The Adeptus Mechanicus strives for independence (admittedly, there is some conflict on this point)... Given that things haven't really changed in ten millennia I think it would be difficult to propose that they are striving for independence. Rather they have always been a fairly independent organisation that is otherwise conservative in their 'factions' (i.e. political stance to the Imperium).
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Post by CELS on Jan 29, 2005 8:35:22 GMT -5
Perhaps "neuropsychology" or something similar. Bodies can be reprogrammed (servitors), making 'psychology' potentially reviewed more as programming (in the C+, FORTRAN) sense than psychology as it is known today. Yep. But it does not stop there. In theory, you could 'program' a human using Pavlov and Skinner's theories of learning. "Well, what do you say to the design of personalities?… The control of temperament? Give me the specifications and I’ll give you the man!" - Skinner Well, I don't know about humanist philosophy as far as technology and computer goes, but in terms of human psychology, I think the humanist perspective would be extremely uninteresting for the Adeptus Mechanicus. "Free will"... give me a break That would be good. I'm not saying I won't change it no matter what, I'm just saying that with the arguments people have presented, I don't see why I should. Indeed. And indeed. I'm not sure I understand you. Either you're contradicting the previous argument that the Adeptus Mechanicus would be unlikely to have a Collegia/Sodalica Historica department, or you're agreeing that all organisations in the Adeptus Terra are likely to maintain their own records. The Adeptus Astartes and Mechanicus, just like the Ecclessiarchy and the Administratum. If you're saying the latter, then I obviously concur. Bad wording on my part. They're striving to maintain their relative independence and power. But as I have mentioned in the part about political factions, there are some that want further integration, and some that want further seperation. I think we agree on this point, if we just stop and think for a minute. Oh, and Kage, I don't think you answered my question on page 3 of this thread; How do you interpret the Adeptus Mechanicus history? You said you knew that your interpretation works, so I'm interested in hearing about it.
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Post by CELS on Jan 29, 2005 15:13:00 GMT -5
3.6 The Centurio Ordinatus Of all the fighting forces of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Centurio Ordinatus is the smallest and the most specialised. The Centurio Ordinatus consists of hundreds of unique and fantastically powerful warmachines, some dating back to before the birth of the Imperium. From titanic land-based artillery units to bizarre burrowing tanks, the warmachines of the Ordinatus have only one thing in common; each warmachine is one of a kind and was built for one specific purpose. Whether built to breach a specific fortress or capture a special enemy unit, the warmachines of the Centurio Ordinatus are typically so specialised that they are transported back and forth accross the galaxy, to whatever world where their unique abilities are required.
The Centurio Ordinatus is an extremely valuable, but extremely vulnerable asset. In battle, its warmachines are totally dependent on other forces for protection- be it the Skitarii Tech Guard or the Imperial Guard and Navy. Much like the Adeptus Astartes, the Centurio Ordinatus cannot be commanded into battle. Commanders of the Imperium may only request their warmachines, and it is then up to the Magi Errant of the Ordinatus to judge whether or not the situation is dire enough to warrant their presence. Unlike the Astartes however, the Centurio Ordinatus is not known for brave last stands. Their warmachines are so valuable to the Imperium, that to lose one in battle is an unthinkable disaster. For this reason, it is not uncommon for the Ordinatus to disengage if their warmachines are in too much danger- much to the disappointment of any Commander or General.
To the Adeptus Mechanicus, the warmachines of the Centurio Ordinatus are holy avatars of the Machine God, creations of such cunning and power that they could never be improved or outdated. With the exception of repair and various maintenance, some of these warmachines have remained unchanged since their creation, tens of thousands of years ago. More amazing still, several of these warmachines have not been used more than once, due to their highly special abilities, irreparable damage or quite simply their infinite value to the Imperium.
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Post by CELS on Jan 29, 2005 19:12:16 GMT -5
3.7 The Legio Titanica[/color] Titans have existed since long before the days of the Imperium, in the Age of Technology. In those dark times, Titan-like machines were common and a part of the planetary defence force of many human worlds in the galaxy. After the Age of Strife however, much of the knowledge needed to maintain and build the true Titans was lost, and eventually became lost to all except the Cult Mechanicus. Of course, this was in no small part due to the fact that the Cult Mechanicus actively made sure that no one else had the technology to build Titans. In the early days of the Great Crusade, the newly founded Imperium and the Mechanicum were both in favour of banning the ancient Titan designs that didn't incorporate a machine spirit, and so the Emperor's Armies and Space Marine Legions actually helped the Cult Mechanicus in maintaining their monopoly.
The Legio Titanica is divided into four divisions; the Divisio Militaris, the Divisio Mandati, the Divisio Telepathica and the Divisio Investigatus. Of these four, all except the Divisio Investigatus maintain Titan warmachines.
The Divisio Militaris is the biggest of the divisions, and contains the majority of the Titan Legions and Demi-Legions. The Titans of the Divisio Militaris are ancient warmachines armed with conventional weaponry, such as energy weapons, ballistic weapons, missile weapons and close combat weapons. These Titans can be divided into Emperor class, Warlord class, Reaver class and Warhound class, depending on their size and role.
The Divisio Mandati is quite similar from the Divisio Militaris. The Titan Legions of the Divisio Mandati are almost only used to enforce Pax Imperia on Imperial worlds. Consisting of only Emperor class Titans, the Legions of the Divisio Mandati are a powerful tool that can be used in conjunction with other Imperial forces to persuade Imperial servants into submissions. When persuasion fails, the firepower of the Emperor class Titans enforces the Imperial will. Some of the Legio Mandati never move beyond the boundaries of the Imperium, having a regular diocese under their peripatetic care. Others specialize in taking the word of the pax Imperia beyond the boundaries of Imperial space. These Missionary Legions, often operating in support of Rogue Traders, are the elite of the Divisio Mandati.
The Divisio Telepathica is the smallest of the Titanica divisions. Using special Titans that have psyker choirs linked with arcane psi-amplifiers, the Divisio Telepathica has a number of different uses, such as long-range psyker warfare against enemy headquarters or even disabling enemy titans for capture. With their powerful psyker-choirs, the Titans of the Divisio Telepathica are able to cause just as much destruction and confusion in the enemy lines as standard Titans, and, with the most powerful psykers, can even be used to breach fortress walls. The Divisio Telepathica are extremely careful when preparing their psyker-Titans, because of the horrifying possibility that one of the psykers be possessed by warp entities. In a best case scenario, this would kill the psyker choir and leave the Titan lifeless. If they are not so lucky, the Titan is possessed by daemons, who can channel unfathomable amounts of energy through the possessed psykers and cause utter mayhem in the Imperial lines.
The Divsio Investigatus is radically different from the other divisions, as it is dedicated to research and testing. Closely connected to the Sodalicae of the Collegia Titanica, the Divisio Investigatus is involved in designing new titans, testing new technology on the battlefield and trying to unlock the secrets of the most ancient of titans. For an Imperial commander to be blessed with the presence of the Divisio Investigatus can be a mixed pleasure. With their experimental technology, the Titans of the Divisio Investigatus can be used to surprise the enemy or to deal with special threats, such as Tyranids or Chaos. Just as often, unfortunately, these Titans will experience a handful of malfunctions that can lead to anything from slightly reduced combat efficiency to power plant meltdown and utter destruction. Still, the members of the Divisio Investigatus maintain a fierce pride in their status, and their Princeps are usually extremely talented warriors who can be expected to deal with surprises.
In the Dark Millennium, there are roughly as many Titan Legions in the Imperium as there are forgeworlds. Some forgeworlds have more than one Titan Legions, and some have none. While the largest Titan Legion, Legio Destructor, has over a hundred Titans, there are many smaller Legions, such as the Legio Ordo Sinister of the Divisio Mandati, which has only twelve. Unlike other fighting forces of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Titan Legions are considered so powerful that they may not be transported by Adeptus Mechanicus ships. Instead, they must be taken to battle by the Imperial Navy; a precaution that can cause great delays, but which was proved necessary following the Horus Heresy. Of course, there are those within the Inquisition and the Administratum who suspect that the Adeptus Mechanicus is in violation of those ancient laws, and secretly transport Titans onboard their so-called scout ships and research ships.
[Note: Comments very welcome. I'm sure some of you will disagree with what I wrote, especially on the Titan Legions. This is my attempt to merge the old fluff with the new. In the new fluff, there is no evidence of the Psi-Titans, and no explanation as to why the Legio Ordo Sinister has only 12 Emperor Titans. I think this works quite well.]
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 30, 2005 5:35:11 GMT -5
Erm, nitpick on the structure of the Divisio Militaris. Reavers and Warlords are Battle Titans. Warhounds are Scout Titans. Emperor class is a size classification and not a 'model'. Emperor type Titans include Imperator and Warmonger classes.
So yes, I'd stick to describing it in terms of Scout, Battle and Emperor titans. Within the Admech there must be some other designs somewhere. I've heard of a Hound Skull, for one.
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Post by CELS on Jan 30, 2005 6:09:49 GMT -5
You're quite right. It's been changed. Never heard of any other types though. The Hound Skulls are a Space Marine Chapter, according to this timeline
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 30, 2005 23:11:54 GMT -5
Any chance that you could send a 'current' version of this document to kage2020@gmail.com? I've got a sneaking suspicion that I have a criticism of the entire thing, but would prefer to see it in total before I make it... Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 31, 2005 5:31:35 GMT -5
Any chance that you could send a 'current' version of this document to kage2020@gmail.com? I've got a sneaking suspicion that I have a criticism of the entire thing Well, I can't say I'm surprised. Unless I have made some changes on my home computer and forgot to upload them, you can find the entire current version here. I trust it's not a big problem that I don't mail it to you, since it's all there. If you want to take the discussion by mail, my e-mail adress is cels@rocketmail.com.
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Post by Zholud on Jan 31, 2005 10:47:16 GMT -5
I broadly agree with this statement. I chiefly wanted to point out the direction – Pavlov rather than Freud & Yung, i.e. more practical stuff than discussions about super ego or mass unconscious (maybe wrongly translated the terms, but I think you got what I meant). Moreover, AM, like Iron Hands supposedly are interesting in clearing the mind of emotions, thus they see them as mean for inferior beings and not worthy studying. Thus maybe not collegia, but just a branch of biology? What about novice minoris/majoris? Maybe I was not clear on it – I don’t deny that Mechanicus study history – think more about a very narrow and specific kind of it. Like Adeptus Astartes history concerns their battles and look more like Dwarves’ book of grudges than anything else. For Mechanicus I doubt that they are interested in development of Anargo sector – they are more interested in who and how mixed a new mix for bendium, thus not even history of science as we know it… I think we should go beyond wargamer perspective there and add civil giant machines, like the rolling cities at Karnak, or walking builders, channel constructor, excavators etc…
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Post by CELS on Jan 31, 2005 12:08:26 GMT -5
I broadly agree with this statement. I chiefly wanted to point out the direction – Pavlov rather than Freud & Yung, i.e. more practical stuff than discussions about super ego or mass unconscious (maybe wrongly translated the terms, but I think you got what I meant). Moreover, AM, like Iron Hands supposedly are interesting in clearing the mind of emotions, thus they see them as mean for inferior beings and not worthy studying. Thus maybe not collegia, but just a branch of biology? Hmm... branch of biology... alright! You've convinced me. I'll change it to a branch of biology And by the way, it's Jung, not Yung Translating into small novice and big novice? Hmph... how about adept and novice? Well, I'm not so sure. See, treasure hunters are always very concerned with history. To find a spanish galleon, you need some knowledge about the 15th century, for example. Trade routes and so on. Now, the Adeptus Mechanicus are the ultimate treasure hunters, so why would they ignore history? Second of all, as I've said before (and a few people before me, I admit), knowledge is power. Hmm.. but that is assuming that the Centurio Ordinatus is not strictly a military force. I'm not suggesting that the Adeptus Mechanicus does not have non-military machines, but why throw them all in a big heap of an organisation? "Sorry, Mr. General, sir, we don't have your Nova cannon artillery unit. But how about a walker used to paint hives on Necromunda in M.34?" The word 'Centurio' sounds rather military. I don't know what Ordinatus means. Of course, I do see one merit with your argument. I've not really taken a look at the non-military branches of the Mechanicus, except for the Collegia. Perhaps that would be interesting, and perhaps one of those branches would have an equivalent of the Centurio Ordinatus...
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 31, 2005 13:24:10 GMT -5
*looks through catalogue*
"Antigravity spam carrier from Thranx, M38? Nah. Galactic Tour bus, formerly used by the glam metal band Emperor's Children, M30? Oldie but a goodie. Still, not what we're looking for..."
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Post by CELS on Feb 1, 2005 9:09:51 GMT -5
Mechanicum – relatively new invention of GW, mentioned in HH CCG. Something akin to council/senate/parliament. This institution IMHO appoints on administrative positions. Thus maybe even Fabricator-General is representative and not top of pyramid. Maybe speaker of this parliament. Collective/dispersed mind of Mechanicum is more fascinating IMHO that big boss approach. Thanks for sending me the link, zholud. For those who, like me, haven't really read all the HH CCG background cards, there's some information in the Great Crusade part, about how Terra and Mars joined forces. First of all, the cards say that because of the Space Marines, the Cult Mechanicus was forced to join the Emperor. Considering that Mars had already been building up for quite some time, and that they had Titan Legions, elite soldiers with high tech weapons, robots, battleships... well, we all know how GW likes to exaggerate the power of Space Marines. In my own opinion, Mars could have won a war against the Emperor, but found that it was in their interest to ally instead. Second, the Cult Mechanicus was ruled by the Mechanicum (Cult Mechanicus, Mechanicum, Adeptus Mechanicus, Machine God... how creative names), which was a parliament of 'technocrats'. This suggests that the Adeptus Mechanicus has a more 'collective' form of government than the rest of the Imperium, as mentioned by zholud. Personally, I also find that interesting, and in harmony with their holy uber-university theme. Third, the Cult Mechanicus had robots fighting in the Great Crusade. Previously, I've assumed that there were no robots in the Imperium after the Age of Technology. In my defence, that made perfectly sense before, since there was no mention of robots in the Age of Imperium. Anyway, we now have to figure out why robots suddenly disappeared from the arsenal of the Cult Mechanicus? Was it because they were so easily corrupted by chaos? If that is the answer, then the Imperium would have no objection to robots pre Heresy, and -get this- there would be no reason for Alpharius to destroy the Mezzan, as far as the rest of the Imperium is concerned. "They have soulless machines? So what? The Cult Mechanicus has a few billions of them." Your thoughts?
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