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Post by Philip on Mar 17, 2005 7:14:02 GMT -5
Ideological DifferenceI have ever been unfond of the religious argument, more so given the descriptions posted above by Destecado. So what do you think is the difference between the golden/ stone/ iron men are? Uniqueness of IdeasStrange, yet the concept doesn't strike me as unique at all. Enough. That is for another thread and henceforth encourage and may engage in the editing/deletion of such asides. There is a thread for it elsewhere for those that wish to discuss that alternative universe of yours. In this instance in not an ‘alternate universe of mine’ it’s 40K, the idea of the ‘Artilects’ or rather great (godlike) machine minds has been alluded to in the fluff, and these machine mind are very powerful – hence the C’Tan Dragon ideas that are floating around the forums. I don’t much like the idea that the Dragon lives on Mars - so using the information at hand I have proposed this alternative. As these is so little real information about Mars at this time, and the machine god and other aspects are never described in detail what they actually are, the ideas I presented seem to be the best fit. If you look at what I have written you’ll see things are changing in my great ‘interlinked web of ideas’, the Ion-Men are no longer nRobots (and their background now matches the fluff), power-filed technology has been removed from almost everything (star trek force field they ain’t) and become the exclusive preserve of the Ad-Mec’s more exotic technologies and the STC now has ‘Artilect’ automation systems. My ideas do not constitute an alternate universe, they are an interpretation of 40K fluff just like yours are, and I would like to integrate my interpretation into Anargo. In order to do this I need your help, I would appreciate it if you explain why my ideas do not work in regard to the fluff rather than just rubbishing it as this is of little help to me, please explain why it doesn’t work - so I can correct the ideas. Philip
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Post by CELS on Mar 17, 2005 8:02:51 GMT -5
Philip, as you may not have noticed, Kage is planning to take a break from the ASP. In all likelihood, he will only be stopping by every few days (or weeks) to add something to the Anargo sub, or maybe the Eldar, and maybe something else if he finds it to be important or interesting enough.
As much as I'd like for you and Kage to finish the discussion about your concepts, it would seem that this discussion has to wait. If you still want to be a help to the ASP while Kage is gone, I humbly suggest that you put your as of yet unapproved ideas on standby, or work on them somewhere else, and try to contribute to the ASP in other ways.
Surely there are things that interest you, beyond the STC, force fields and A.I.?
I know that it's sometimes frustrating to just put some favourite topics on standby. I've had to do the same with some of my stuff, including the ork essay I worked so hard to finish.
To try and steer this thread back where I originally wanted it to go, let my yet again raise a few important questions;
1) What kind of specific divisions do you see the Adeptus Mechanicus having to deal with non-military projects? For example, we know that the Adeptus Mechanicus is instrumental in constructing warp drives, even for non-military ships? Do they have a division of artisans, responsible for constructing warp drives with little or no outside help? Or does the Adeptus Mechanicus merely supply 'experts' that help locals (such as the citizens of the Anargo system) with constructing warp drives?
2) What can be said about a 'Cult Mechanicus philosophy', disregarding the philosophical conflict between Traditionalists and Primists, etc? What is the common view on the Machine God, knowledge and the purpose of the Adeptus Mechanicus? For example, do most members of the Mechanicus really believe that the machine is strong and pure and that man is weak? If so, how does one explain the old fluff quote about the invincibility of "man and machine"?
3) Any suggestions for more of the Universal Laws of the Cult Mechanicus? Is there something missing? Perhaps regarding 'soulless machines', or chaos, or the stone men, or... something else?
I'll try and answer these questions myself, this weekend, but I haven't the time right now. I guess I'll have to give some more answers before I can consider my Adeptus Mechanicus essay finished.
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Post by Philip on Mar 17, 2005 9:25:41 GMT -5
Surely there are things that interest you, beyond the STC, force fields and A.I.? Absolutely, but these areas are ‘corner stones’ of the 40K universe, without understanding them how can we add to 40K in anything other than a generic/ undefined way? In know there is lots of talk about revisionism/ holistics, but the truth is 4E is going back to 1E in feel, much of the old fluff is getting dusted off. The core ideas of 40K has remained the same for a very long time, there is much correlation between 4e and 1E in outlook (even in my new commission for the BL, the source refs are from 1E rulebook). I know that it's sometimes frustrating to just put some favourite topics on standby. I've had to do the same with some of my stuff, including the ork essay I worked so hard to finish. Believe it or not, all the background stuff isn’t my favourite bit, designing the systems is, drawing them up, working out how they work for inclusion in imagery. I designed the STC hive plans so I could actually draw up a hive, in drawing up a picture you need to do way more research on design than in writing up an idea because you can’t gloss over the cracks. Ideas first, then write up, then art design, then image. So far I keep having the foundations knocked down and nothing is being offered to replace them. Until I get a good idea as to how things work in Anargo, what is the point of me writing up a world if it is only going to get dumped?
Anyway, moving on, at the moment we are talking about the Ad-Mec and their organisation, and why they do the things they do. Points covered so far; [/li][li]Servitors are very similar to robots in 40K in that they are bio-brained. [/li][li]The Imperium does use computers (auto-systems). [/li][li]The Ad-Mec use STC for non-Psyker designs. [/li][li]The Ad-Mec would probably have as many a divisions as modern scientific fields. You think of it, they have it. To try and steer this thread back where I originally wanted it to go, let my yet again raise a few important questions; 1) What kind of specific divisions do you see the Adeptus Mechanicus having to deal with non-military projects? For example, we know that the Adeptus Mechanicus is instrumental in constructing warp drives, even for non-military ships? Do they have a division of artisans, responsible for constructing warp drives with little or no outside help? Or does the Adeptus Mechanicus merely supply 'experts' that help locals (such as the citizens of the Anargo system) with constructing warp drives? Difficult to answer without the corner-stones, on the one hand if the Ad-Mec controls all warp-drive manufacture then they would have a division and the very nature and security would affect how it is implemented. On the other hand if warp-engine manufacture is universal, then the Ad-Mec have very little control and would work in a co-operative fashion. Or if the Ad-Mec supply various STC manufactured warp-drive components. [/li][li]As I like cause and effect, the first version would need a reason for this level of control, and it would have to be a ‘natural’ control not reliant on humans enforcement (human enforcement wouldn’t work, and after 10,000 years the secrets would have leaked and been copied – the Ad-Mec wouldn’t control anything). I came up with the idea of a ‘difficult to manufacture’ component of warp-drive the mysterious blue liquid (TM Zholud) which would naturally inhibit warp drive from being produced without the Ad-Mec. The Ad-Mec control all warp drive tec as they are the only ones big enough to make this ‘mysterious blue liquid’ ( ) [/li][li]The second idea is very free and would allow anyone one trained to make warp-drive build ship and do what the liked. The Ad-Mec would be redundant; the STC would be remade anew by many other worlds, instead of one Ad-Mec you'll have millions. Problem here is the death of the Ad-Mec, without a real means of control, a monopoly of sorts they would be pushed back to Mars and that’s are far as they go. I could be argued that the Ad-Mec a purely a division of the Imperium, a federal entity (like the FBI in America), but the problem here is that once technology can be copied and duplicated, it wouldn’t be long before an isolated empire became very powerful indeed (a Human version of the Tau) and why would they be part of the Imperium when they could renegotiate as ‘allies’ (and they wouldn’t share their info with the Ad-Mec if they wanted to stay independent). Here the Ad-Mec could find themselves in the position of not being top-dog, and it would be very hard for the Imperium to impose its will on allies who can resist AD-Mec technology. Example In the case where an Exterminus was warranted, what if the world was part of a Hi-Tec mini alliance, and that this mini empire felt the Emterminus was wrong and inhumane and refused to comply, but more importantly could actually enforce this resistance and repel the Ad-Mec technology (Naval ships). [/li][li]The last idea basically means that the Ad-Mec supply the mysterious blue liquid to worlds in a component. This means the Ad-Mec are sole supplies of a component that enable warp-drive to work, without this component a warp drive in just a jumble of techo-junk. Problem here is that most large scale equipment is built of forge worlds, ships, titians you name it a forge world makes it. Seems to suggest this idea doesn’t pan out. Philip * mysterious blue liquid = dark matter = warp stone = difficult to make component - name ideas welcome. ;D
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Post by Destecado on Mar 17, 2005 16:57:32 GMT -5
Alluded to in the fluff… I have yet to see you site an actual passage from the fluff from which you draw your assumptions. I admit that the concepts that I have proposed are also just interpretations of the fluff. They are however based off of extrapolations created from multiple sources of fluff, which I then cite. I’m not discounting your ideas Philip, but without the corresponding fluff to back them up, I do take them with a grain of salt.
I’m sorry, but I am going to have to disagree with you about the Stone Men Kage. After further consideration, I do agree that given the time frames involved, there would probably not be enough time for speciation to occur (Not enough time for the Stone Race to be an actual sub-species of humanity). It is more likely that the Stone Race Golden Race division is based more upon arbitrary characteristics (color, religion, ethnic background, etc.) which have been used down through the centuries to divide up humanity.
In the case of Golden Race vs Stone Race, I still feel that the distinction has to do with the planet of origin. Till this time humans had come from earth and it would be considered the home of humanity. After the terraforming of Mars, you would have individuals who no longer identified with Earth, they would view themselves as other…perhaps as children of Mars. To use an example from our own history, I point to the colonial territories that eventually became the United States. With each passing generation, those born in the colonies came to identify less and less with the country from which their parents had emigrated. They began to create an identity as Americans which for good or ill has its own unique cultural identity.
Such an evolution of identity could have taken place on Mars, where the people began to identify themselves as separate and distinct from the Humans of earth. I will not belabor the point any further, but the concepts for the creation of the Iron Men are some what tied to this theoretical origin of the Iron Men and also the Adeptus Mechanicus.
I have changed my view of the Stone Race being a genetic offshoot of humanity as posted above. With regards to not needing to know why the Iron Men were created, I have to strongly disagree. WHY, is one of the most important questions that needs to be answered in order to understand a culture and its motivations.
Example: We know that the tribes of Easter Island built enormous stone statues (Moai) across the island. Scientists think they have figured out how they constructed the statues an moved them into place. Such knowledge points to what tools they may have had access to as well as their technical skill, but it does little to answer WHY the statues were originally built.
Eample2: The United States dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan during WWII. This statement points to a certain level of technical and scientific acumen held by the country that dropped the bomb. Knowledge of the destructive nature of these devices, which were dropped on cities (civilian targets?) also seems to indicate a level of ruthlessness on the part of the United States. Without examining the circumstance behind the use of the bombs or WHY the bombs were dropped, we are left with an unclear picture.
If we examine why the Iron Men were created, we may better understand the culture of the Stone Race. The following theory for the creation of the Iron Men is based on several assumptions. The first assumption is that the Stone Men maintained control of their empire by monopolizing or controlling key technologies, such as star drives. The second assumption is that the population of the Stone Race would be smaller than that of the Golden Race.
The second assumption is based of the probability of lowered birth rate on Mars compared to the overpopulation that would by this time be occurring on earth. Most of the emigration to the new worlds opened up by the star drive would probably have been mainly from earth. In order to maintain a monopoly of certain technologies, the Stone Race could not hire workers from off world. They might instead turn to automated factories to increase production. These would be the precursors of the Iron Men.
An expanding sphere of human exploration and colonization may have taxed the resources of the Stone Race…not in materials, but in man power. The Iron Men may have been built to supplement the ranks of the Stone Men, thereby allowing them to maintain control and maintain their empire.
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Post by Destecado on Mar 17, 2005 16:58:11 GMT -5
Iron Men Rebellion
The Iron Men have always been painted as cold soulless machines, yet instead of attacking randomly, the fluff seems to indicate that they only prosecuted their war against the Stone race (and probably their allies). The rest of humanity seems to have been more or less left alone. Before going into this, I think it is important to look at how the Iron Men may have achieved sentience. The fluff I posted previously indicated that both the Stone Race and Golden Men benefited from the technologies that the Stone Men created. It is then possible that the Iron Men saw service in the hands of the Golden race as well. The Iron Men probably came in many forms, so there could be Iron Men who were mechanized farm laborers on Agriworlds or helped in the construction of cities and other structure on other planets.
To the Stone Men, the Iron Men may not be more than tools, but an odd thing happens when people work in close proximity to machines day in and day out. They may begin to anthropomorphize (attribute human personality to things not human) their machines. This could possibly happen more readily with a machine that had a semblance of human form. I know many of you might be skeptical about this, but I have people who talk to their computers at work when they are running slow or won’t open a specific program. These are objects that don’t even talk back.
A machine, such as the more sophisticated versions of Iron Men would probably be able to respond. Somewhere between multiple upgrades or maybe the tinkering of an Iron Man’s owner to boost the capacity of his unit, this creation of self (through anthropomorphization) may have crossed into true sentience.
An example of the anthropomorphizing of inanimate objects can be found in the fluff on robots in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (Copyright 1989) pg. 97. The Desert Lions Space Marine Chapter used robots during the Second Pacification of Isstvan V. Those robots that survived the battle were inducted into the Chapter as honorary members.
Granted, these were robots, but I think that this speaks volumes. If the Iron Men were on the front lines helping colonists fend off ork raids, the colonists they aided might have also invested some feelings in their metal compatriots.
The excerpt on about Robots also brings to mind another topic I wanted to cover…
On Robots and Servitors
Is it not possible that the robots fielded by the Legio Cybernetica may in actuality be early versions of the Iron Men? The conceit of science is that if you can know and understand a thing, you can control it. The Adeptus Mechanicus may have thought they learned from the mistakes of the Stone Men. The Stone Men had allowed the Iron Men to become too sophisticated and they were allowed too much autonomy. The new robotic chassis would have removable cortices and be rigged with demolition charges. The former would allow for the “lobotomization or removal of any cortext that showed abnormalities. The latter would allow the supervising technician to destroy any robot which might attempt to go rogue.
Why would the Adeptus Mechanicus again field these units? Man Power. The Adeptus Mechanicus had struck a bargain with the Emperor to supply him with the machines and technology necessary to take back the galaxy. At the beginning when the force available consisted of probably only Earth, Mars and other colonies within the solar system, the nascent army would be facing a huge manpower shortage. Fielding robots was therefore worth the risk.
The Legio Cybernetica and their robot cohorts fought valiantly during the Great Crusade, but a time would come when the future of robots came into question. During the Horus Heresy, fully half of the Legio Cybernetica sided with the rebellious War Master. The Adeptus Mechanicus again faced the threat of Iron Men being loosed upon the Galaxy.
Debates may have raged within the Adeptus Mechanicus as to what must be done. Records indicate that there were robots that had survived the Horus Hersey and which were taken into the Eye of Terror by the rebellious members of the Legio Cybernetica. Construction of Robots could not be stopped overnight. If you are familiar with any form of government, you will know that changes can take a while to make it through committee…especially if the Legio cybernetica had a lot of political clout that they could use to kill motions within the committees.
Eventually though, the phasing out or at least the scaling back of robot cohorts would have commenced. I don’t see the robotic cohorts being mothballed or destroyed, but perhaps being redeployed to defend Forge Worlds. There considerable strength could thereby be harnessed, while allowing closer supervision of the members of the Legio Cybernetica that controlled them. A replacement for these robots would need to be created. This may be what led to the development of Servitors.
It has already been mentioned several times that Servitors might cost less to produce than robots, but we have never really looked at the possibility that they may have also been created to allow for a less durable alternative to robots.
The fluff with regards to robots (pg. 97 Warhammer 40,000 Compendium) states that a good number of maniples still in service can trace parts of existing units and in rare cases full units back to the First Crusade of the Imperium and earlier. This shows one of the major strengths of robots over servitors, but also one of the major drawbacks with regards to control of said units. It is quite possible that robotic units that fled into the Eye of Terror at the end of the Horus Heresy may still exist. They therefore pose an ongoing threat.
Servitors on the other hand are made up of organic material which will not last as long and will perhaps be more susceptible to the warping power of chaos. This degradation of said organic material could perhaps even be sped up. There could be deficiencies built into the servitors organic material or introduced later with retroviruses. If certain chemical compounds are not injected into the servitors system, they would quickly degrade. In this manner, Servitors would be viewed as safer to employ than robots.
There is also the fact that Robots use many of the same parts as Dreadnaughts. Even without the threat of the re-emergence of the Iron Men, each robot lost to chaos may mean spare parts for traitor legions to repair the Dreadnaughts. By changing to a unit that uses dissimilar parts, they deprive the traitor legions of this resource.
Rebelling Legio Cybernetica
What promises could the lords of chaos made to these individuals to make them rebel? If the Adeptus Mechanicus is in fact the descendents of the Stone Race, then perhaps it was a promise tp return them to their rightful place and masters of a great empire, with the that usurper of their position who called himself emperor crushed beneath their heels. This is only a guess, but if the Legio Cybernetica were the direct descendant of those who had originally created the Iron Men, then it could be a tempting carrot.
They could have also been promised free reign to again bring their greatest creations the Iron Men back to life. I have yet to read the novel First and Only, so I can’t comment fully, but I am told it features chaos corrupted Iron Men. I’ll try to lay my hands on a copy to investigate that avenue of discussion.
Side Note on Robots
40,000 Compendium Pg. 104, under Optional Systems, there is a selection called Organic Camouflage. Organic Camouflage systems give a robot a clone-skin of human flesh, allowing it to pass for human. Such a system is useful for assassination or battlefield “stay behind” Bombots. Such Camouflage strengthens my belief in a link existing between robots and Iron Men.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 17, 2005 23:35:03 GMT -5
Unfortunately I'm not a librarian, so rarely can remember the specific sources of the 'fluff'. However, Philip is probably referring to a combination of the 'fluff' that refers to Titans as "god-machines" (or was it 'god-minds') and, from there, the reference to the same on Mars. Very easy to extend that into world AIs. I still don't agree with it in general, although for Mars I'm more flexible. Indeed, I quite like it. But that doesn't mean that peope are suddenly not going to know what they're about, or whatever. The section that you quote has nothing to do with speciation and, indeed, that shows up on another thread. In that case it is in reference to the emergence of psykers and has nothing to do with the Golden Men, Iron Men, etc. I'm also not saying that the emergence of psykers is a speciation event, just that it might have been the source of inspiration. Please, as much as possible, try to keep the discussion OnT as CELS has rightly requested. I'm on a break, which means that I'm just doing those bits that I enjoy yet still I find myself being drawn to these 'arguments' so that the 'fluff' of the ASP doesn't get dragged down directions that I would rather not like. Furthermore, that a piece of 'fluff' isn't accepted and then used to say, "Well, you've already accepted that so you might as well..." etc. Back to the topic. No digressions onto Golden Men, etc., and definitely no Artilect stuff except in context of the adeptus mechanicus. (And that means no going, "Well, this is how it was in the past and now, well, the only surviving one is on Mars.") No. No more. And, incidentally, I don't agree that things are going more 1E. Not by a long-shot. That was a far cry from what 3E and 4E seems to be doing, which is a form of literary autism. Enough said. No more. Back on topic... Kage
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Post by Philip on Mar 19, 2005 11:57:05 GMT -5
Hi Destecado, that’s a lot of ideas, I’d like to pick up on this bit first; On Robots and ServitorsIs it not possible that the robots fielded by the Legio Cybernetica may in actuality be early versions of the Iron Men? The conceit of science is that if you can know and understand a thing, you can control it. The Adeptus Mechanicus may have thought they learned from the mistakes of the Stone Men. The Stone Men had allowed the Iron Men to become too sophisticated and they were allowed too much autonomy. The Iron-Men could be more like dreadnought technology, but instead of a human inside and ‘human patterned cortex’? Current servitors may well be an earlier version of Iron-Men but remade to suit the Imperium - perhaps lobotomised? Whereas the original DAoT equivalents would have fully functioning human minds. In this evolution of the Iron-Men, the servitor technology could be from much early era, which leads to a Borg like halfway hybrid to a dreadnought like cassis with human mind then the human mind replaced with a (human patterned) cortex and maybe this cortex was artificially ‘evolved’ into the Iron-Man form. This puts servitors several generations of technology backward compared to the Iron-men. [/li][li]Bio-Enhanced human [/li][li]Cyborg – mix of cloned human and machine (servitor) [/li][li]Robotic body with human mind and artificial life support - dreadnought [/li][li]Robotic body with cortex (human patterned cortex) – Iron-Men Changes Imperium jumps back to servitor level, but with strict controls (especially on emotions due to the knowledge of the warp and emotions). Imperium still uses dreadnought technology for war machines, but instead of using it for a ‘slave-class’ it is know used as a reward to high ranking heroes (space marine vets). Loss – human patterned cortex. The Ad-Mec still know how to make them, but don’t due to the problems it causes. Early Legio Cybernetica Robots may have been an attempt to replace the human patterned cortex with an animal patterned cortex. I think the result where substandard and they where phased out in favour of (space marine) dreadnought technology.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 20, 2005 18:37:27 GMT -5
Hi Destecado, that’s a lot of ideas, I’d like to pick up on this bit first... <grin> I see how it goes. Again, take the digressions into General. The Iron-Men could be more like dreadnought technology, but instead of a human inside and ‘human patterned cortex’? There is very little to suggest that this was the case... and admittedly little to suggest that it was not. Ultimately it comes down to the implications, and much of them I do not like (e.g. the fact that it is just saying that Iron Men = advanced servitors = robots = not robots). It is, once again, extending the premise that a 'biocomputer' necessarily extends to 'human' like, or some form of 'brain' in terms of the simple integration into it... It's like trying to slip the servitors into the back door. So, no. Not like that. All of it sounds so... unnecessary. That and, I'm afraid, it doesn't appear to fit. If they used biocomputers, then fine. But not the extensions that you're taking. No. (That and this "human patterned cortex" stuff just sounds... awful.)
On topic, please... The 'servitor' question isn't really a problem except in determining why it is used thusly. And that seems more packaging. I think that Sojourner has the right of it on Portent... Kage
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Post by Philip on Mar 20, 2005 19:01:10 GMT -5
There is very little to suggest that this was the case... and admittedly little to suggest that it was not. Ultimately it comes down to the implications, and much of them I do not like (e.g. the fact that it is just saying that Iron Men = advanced servitors = robots = not robots). It actually suggests that Iron-Men/ Imperial Robots and Servitors all share the same technology base. It is, once again, extending the premise that a 'biocomputer' necessarily extends to 'human' like, or some form of 'brain' in terms of the simple integration into it... It's like trying to slip the servitors into the back door. The Bio-Computer is humans like in regard to the Iron-men. If they used biocomputers, then fine. But not the extensions that you're taking. No. (That and this "human patterned cortex" stuff just sounds... awful.) It does seem to fit the fluff and make sense…
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 20, 2005 19:44:59 GMT -5
It actually suggests that Iron-Men/ Imperial Robots and Servitors all share the same technology base. Which is self-evidently incorrect. While Iron Men and Imperial Robots may have used the same technology (i.e. biocomputers), servitors are not biocomputers in the same manner. The Bio-Computer is humans like in regard to the Iron-men. I have no idea what this means. It does seem to fit the fluff and make sense… Nope. It makes a whole lot of not sense, i.e. the aforementioned thing about servitors. Just because something uses biological matter does not mean that it's a biocomputer. Sojourner's SolutionSojourner proposed a rather simple solution to the problem of servitors and a historical integration into the 'fluff' without requirement of spurious associations with Iron Men, etc. It was so simple in fact, and stated previously elsewhere, that I had forgotten about it... The Age of Apostasy This period can be used to reinforce the dominance of the adeptus ministorum, an organisation that is notoriously humanocentric, over that of their traditional nemesis, the adeptus mechanicus. Seems to offer a 'perfect' solution rather than resorting to more... tenuous... premises. Kage
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Post by Philip on Mar 20, 2005 20:21:31 GMT -5
[/li][li]In regard to the Iron-Men: the brain inside their head pan it is human like.
[/li][li]The Age of Apostasy is a good reason for the continued use of servitor and phasing out of robots (Space Marines keep their dreadnoughts because they are outside the normal Imperial structure)
However there is a lack of M/AI in the rest of the galaxy.
[/li][li]As for the whole bio-matter = bio-computer/ not bio-computer thing - the robot’s cortex is a biological mind patterned after an animal. Therefore is suggests it is an artificially created animal mind (I speculate it is heavily tweaked and enhanced – but is still animal in overall structure and arrangement).
Servitors obviously use natural/ clones human minds, but the technology for control, programming and tweaking would be the same as for the cortex mind. Same technology is used in this regard.
Iron-Men most likely used a cortex patterned after a human mind; it is most likely an artificially made (and tweaked) human brain.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 20, 2005 22:55:30 GMT -5
In that case... In regard to the Iron-Men: the brain inside their head pan it is human like. While there are some bits of Dune that we have to keep, let's not reinvent the concept of the Cymeks in a false attempt at originality, shall we? More so when it is not needed. (Regarding the nature of the various obvious and less obvious "rip offs" by GW of various game universes... We all complain about it, but it is the juxtaposition of the 'fluff' that makes it interesting. Rewriting the 'fluff' merely to make it supposedly 'original' is not necessary at this juncture. We only do that when the 'fluff' is broken beyond all redemption.) The Age of Apostasy is a good reason for the continued use of servitor and phasing out of robots... That is because it was a good suggestion by Sojourner. Space Marines keep their dreadnoughts because they are outside the normal Imperial structure Or, rather, the fact that they are not robots! However there is a lack of M/AI in the rest of the galaxy. Erm, if you say so... (I actually don't really want to know what this is about. Suffice to say that the matter is ended beyond the 'specifics' of this particular aside.) the robot’s cortex is a biological mind patterned after an animal. Therefore is suggests it is an artificially created animal mind (I speculate it is heavily tweaked and enhanced – but is still animal in overall structure and arrangement). Suggest all you want. It's not going to be like that in the ASP and, for me, even the 'fluff' does not support that. Just because the 'fluff' says "artificial mind of sorts" doesn't mean that you've got a brain in there, animal or otherwise. Just because it says "Like a Dreadnought, a robot..." doesn't mean that dreadnoughts and robots are the same. I admit that is the simple and most obvious thing to take from it, but also the more tedious... So no to the rest as well. Simple. CELS - I'm going to shut this thread for the moment since it is now so far OffT as to be unbelievable. I can only apologise for perpetuating the OffT tendency. It now ends. Results: - Servitors are the primary form of automaton in the Imperium. While robots might still exist they would do so in great secret, such as in the factory-shrines of the adeptus mechanicus Forgeworlds.
- Computers utilise both organic ("biocomputer") and inorganic components in their makeup.
- The power of the Vandire during the Age of Apostasy caused a shift away from 'robots' and an obfuscation fo that technology behind servitors.
The rest is not overtly relevant, not a part of the ASP and arguably not a part of the 'fluff', except a revision of that 'fluff'. Other points of interest: - The historical event that causes a paradigm shift away from obvious robotics into 'hidden' forms seems best (ala Sojourner) to be the Age of Apostasy.
Okay, maybe just the one point at the moment. Again, apologies CELS for the diversion. Based upon this thread I'm going to be more careful when I ask a question in the future... The lock is merely to stop myself in engaging what is a meaningless debate for ASP and a 'fluff' tenuous one in general. Kage
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Post by CELS on Mar 21, 2005 4:20:04 GMT -5
Right. I guess I will have to find help for my Adeptus Mechanicus text elsewhere. If anyone should, amazingly, actually want to help with what I'm doing, please start a new thread to discuss the questions asked above or PM me. For now, I'll be pondering about the non-military divisions of the AM, the philosophies of the AM, etc.
*sigh*
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