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Post by Skabbhatt on Mar 4, 2004 13:32:40 GMT -5
As I mentioned in the Antares tread I think we have to discuss the nature of the grox, a important meat supply in the Imperium. Taking a look in a certain document I learn a few facts. - The Grox is a large, reptilian creature native to the Soloman system.
- Adults being about 5m long.
- Grox proved extremely palatable and nutrious, and eat basiclly anything including rock and soil.
- Fierce temprament when crowding them as they are loner by nature.
- They solve that problem by lobotomise most of the stock. Chemicals also used.
- Grox are kept on isolated agri-worlds.
I, personally, have doubts on the lobotomising method. Surely it would be easier to gen-engineer a more desireable behaviour then lobotimise almost every grox that is born? Just seems easier to me. Now some question about how they look? How big are they? How do they reproduce? How fast are they? Et cetera.Me being a young ignorant student I ask if there are anyone with a more extensive knowledge about biology and/or any special knowledge about reptiles? 5 minutes of googling late I find this; www.embl-heidelberg.de/~uetz/families/Tropiduridae.htmlWhich seems like a nice base for the grox, I think. Oh later we should get the Art Department to do some pictures.
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 4, 2004 13:44:54 GMT -5
The Grox is roughly cow-shaped and reptilian. Sort of like a Triceratops with no mantle.
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Post by zholud on Mar 4, 2004 14:36:39 GMT -5
Just an official description: The Grox is a large, reptilian creature native to the Soloman system. Many years ago this system was absorbed into the Imperium, and it was quickly discovered that the animal possessed several remarkable and potentially useful qualities. Grox proved extremely palatable and nutrious, and experiments in farming were largely successful, since Grox thrive on any food, no matter how poor or indigestible. Apart from being able to eat vegetable or animal matter, Grox are capable of digesting minerals directly from rocks or soil, and can survive for a good many weeks on such a diet. The only drawback discovered to the wholesale exploitation of the Grox was their temperament. Grox were mean! An adult averages approximately 5 metres long, is well muscled, fast, aggressive and likes its privacy. By nature territorial and loners, it was difficult to keep the animals together without driving them into a rage in which grox and their handlers were likely to loose life or limb. The solution to this problem was to lobotomise most of the stock, while keeping breeding animals suppressed by using electro-pulsers wired directly into their rather small brains. Chemical sedation is also used, but is less predictable. Even with these sensible precautions accidents still happen and it is usual for Grox to be kept on isolated agricultural worlds, as far away as possible from any human settlement.My comments will follow.
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Post by CELS on Mar 4, 2004 15:27:51 GMT -5
IIRC, the Grox does not look like a cow at all, and this is confirmed by zholud's post (do not ask where he got that from, btw ) I seem to have memory of Grox walking on their hind legs, but this must be wrong, considering their length... or is it? Do they look like dinosaurs perhaps? Anyway, I think we have some freedom when it comes to size, colour, etc. It's conceivable that the grox of some worlds have been genetically engineered to better adapt to the world's climate. Then again, Grox are very tough, so this might be rare... Being reptilians, I say we go with the obvious and let the Grox have to sexes and lay eggs, like terran reptiles.
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 4, 2004 16:07:11 GMT -5
The Grox in codex : Catachan is a rough cow shape...
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Post by CELS on Mar 4, 2004 17:10:55 GMT -5
I would seriously disagree with that. I think it looks a lot more slender and agile than a cow. But I guess there's no point in discussing that, since we have the picture and know what these things are capable of. By the way, the Codex says the grox on the pic is female, suggesting that the Grox have two sexes (or more, but that's kinda unlikely), so I think we could safely assume they're similar to terran reptiles when it comes to reproduction. Good job reminding us of this stuff, Sojourner. It's so easy to forget the new fluff... PS: Codex Catachan also informs us that these things stander over a man's head at the shoulder, so now we know their height and length!
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Post by Minister on Mar 5, 2004 14:32:43 GMT -5
Remember that this is a wild grox. With selective breeding and/or genetic engineering they would probably be a lot slower, bigger and more docile.
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Post by KeirLeslie on Mar 5, 2004 15:26:07 GMT -5
Do you know if Grox are cold blooded or not and whether or not they are slower in colder conditions? I would guess so with them being reptillian but still why is everything based on the Terran animals. If they are all the cold Agriworlds have a "crop" that's cheaper for them to make, easy to handle and best of all comes prefrozen It would mean alot of the "too cold" worlds are actually at a reasonable temperature for Grox keeping.
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Post by zholud on Mar 5, 2004 16:22:19 GMT -5
The primary reason for the massive usage of grox instead of e.g. modified cows is their cold blood. All hot-blooded creatures need to keep temperature and thus spend energy, unlike reptiles. The most effective system for them is semi-hot blood, to some extent similar to platypus that is able to change own body temperature up and down couple of degrees. Also I guess we should drop stone eating from their rations, don’t you think?
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Post by Skabbhatt on Mar 5, 2004 16:27:49 GMT -5
Useing cold tempratures are an intresting way to subdue them. Which should only works if they are cold blooded. So their height is about 180-190 cm? Or is it an catachan they compare it with? I took a look in the Codex: Catachan today and to my suprise I could not find neither the picture nor information on the grox. Strange. Could anyone give me an page number? So we have female grox and male. I agree that they should lay eggs. How many? I was thinking 6-10. When do they mate? Well it would depend upon when the world would have most food. How long do the female carry the egg before laying them? No clue. How long before they hatch? A month? Genetic engineering, maybe diffrent breeds? Diffrent variations being cold-/heatresistent, a nice cherry tasting meat... Making them more doctile would prolly be more or less standard. Maybe the same with introducing a herd mentality. And yes maybe we should drop the stone diet. Or maybe they eat some stones to help their with their digesting system? But I suggest we keep the part of eating soil, wouln't be that nourishing through. Them being semi-hot blooded seems nice. *ignorant*
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Post by CELS on Mar 6, 2004 3:50:43 GMT -5
Useing cold tempratures are an intresting way to subdue them. Which should only works if they are cold blooded. If you're right, that would be pretty cool, yeah. Unfortunately, I know diddely about zoology and biology, so I have no idea... So their height is about 180-190 cm? Or is it an catachan they compare it with? Nope, it's the height of the offworld Adept who wrote the article. I took a look in the Codex: Catachan today and to my suprise I could not find neither the picture nor information on the grox. Strange. Could anyone give me an page number? Page 24 So we have female grox and male. I agree that they should lay eggs. How many? I was thinking 6-10. When do they mate? Well it would depend upon when the world would have most food. How long do the female carry the egg before laying them? No clue. How long before they hatch? A month? No clue. I think we could get away with pretty much anything. How about we use crocodiles as a guide, and maybe increase the rate of reproduction a tad to make them more favourable as livestock. Making them more doctile would prolly be more or less standard. Maybe the same with introducing a herd mentality. I really think it would be a shame to introduce the concept of breeding docile Grox, since they're a so much more entertaining concept being lethal predators. Besides, GW's writings on the Grox describes them as being dangerous creatures, implying that the Imperium hasn't been able to shape their race into docility yet. And yes maybe we should drop the stone diet. Or maybe they eat some stones to help their with their digesting system? But I suggest we keep the part of eating soil, wouln't be that nourishing through. We should definitely have them eating soil when nothing else is available. I remember reading that the Tyranosaurus Rex ate big rocks (presumably to help digestion), so I think the Grox could do the same. The Imperials might guess that it's for nutrition, but it might not necessarily be the case...
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Post by Skabbhatt on Mar 6, 2004 4:35:40 GMT -5
Make sense as crocodiles are one of the most successful species on our planet. www.angelfire.com/mo2/animals1/crocodile/asc.htmlMaybe just up the survivablilty rate to 10-20%? Agreed, maybe just introdoce an herd mentality then? As they seems to go into a rage when they are crowded. They are still dangerous like hell, but they don't attack on the virtue of being loners anymore. Of course it could have different level of success. Not knowing as in Adeptus Mechanicus know, and the rest just don't care.
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Post by CELS on Mar 6, 2004 4:51:19 GMT -5
Sounds good to me. One thing though; the worlds of the Imperium have very different orbital and rotational periods, not to mention climates.... how would this affect the rate of reproduction for Grox?
How about if the Grox have phases of 4-8 months (standard Terran), alternating between reproduction and non-reproduction?
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 6, 2004 5:32:05 GMT -5
Soil has some nutritional value, obviously, as bacteria disgest it, so I could accept humic acids being part of a grox's diet. Cows have cellulase-releasing bacteria so I can't see why grox couldn't have both those and denitrifying bacteria. Grox being detritivorous would make them a useful colonisation animal, too.
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Post by zholud on Mar 6, 2004 8:26:20 GMT -5
My objection wasn’t about soil eating, because it is nutritious to some extent, but sand and stones mentioned in the original description. From what I know, chicken swallow stones because they have to digest different hard seeds, so I doubt any predator or herbivore with jaws will need such stones to help digestion. As to their breeding, I prefer having them good survivors who keep their eggs inside for as long as possible and even give live birth, but if necessary leaving eggs in mid-process. This is (1) original and (2) goes away from usual dragons description as fancy crocodiles.
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