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Post by Philip on Oct 2, 2004 12:50:14 GMT -5
I’ll reply in full when I get the time to think about it a little more, but I did have a few thoughts about the STC and the loss of technology during the Age of Strife. =Why the loss of Technology?=Obviously being cut off because of warp storms isn’t in itself a problem, Earth has been ‘isolated’ and we have managed quite well. My thoughts of the Age of Strife and the associated technology atrophy are that it maybe due to the STC being ‘incomplete’ on purpose as a means of corporations maintaining ‘control’? =Rough Idea (ramble)=What if many of the STC designs actually lacked vital components, for example, if building a ‘power station’ the STC would contain all the blue prints for the Plas-Crete building, the wiring, pluming etc. but may not have included plans for the actual generator (or vital part), which has to be shipped in via the corporations at huge cost. The STC would be relatively cheap, maybe even free, but the corporations get you will the add-ons ;D If vital bits of technology where missing from the STC and colonies had ‘service contracts’ with the Mega-Corporations: being cut off because of warp storms would cause a real problem. =Missing Tech=I was thinking the power field technology would be missing from the STC, as would Anti-Grav etc, all these types of tech would have to be shipped in. During the age of strife redesigning or copying buildings or cars or ships is easy, but how do you design a ‘power field’ generator is there is no information even on the theory of power fields in the STC database let alone blueprints? This would mean that as soon as major system failed (like power plant) that needed power field tech it would be permanently broken, as no one could fix it. The Power plant would have to be redesigned from scratch (no STC) and this would cause problems (coal?). In an ironic way, this would mean that the Mega-Corporation's greed open up a weakness in the human Federation/ Empire (After all, how were they to know warp storms were on the way?) and would also limit the type of STC designs that were accessible to colonists. Maybe the Adeptus Mechanicus isn’t after the STCs that colonist had, but rather the one the Mega-Corporations had? It would also explain why power field technology is rare in the Imperium... I must rewrite this
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 2, 2004 17:33:30 GMT -5
Thing is that you've also got to remember just how colonisation works... gradual development of the infrastructure, etc. That is something that is wholly missed out in a consideration of STC where the 'image' gets in the way of the 'ole brains. It's not just about control...
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Post by RascalLeader on Oct 2, 2004 18:48:49 GMT -5
While I agree with Philip's argument about the lost of technology it does not cover the fact that STC units have disapeered from the face of the universe. The fluff somewhere said that the AM only had a few first generation print-outs of (print-outs?!?) of STC designs. My thinking on this that during the latter days of the GAoT most colonies had riots broght on by technophobia from the whole betrayal of the Iron Men and across the galaxy thier were people smashing the little box containing all the program.
When they suddenly realised later that their cars needed new spares, and they had planet wide blackout due to the powerplants shut down their would have been a collective "doh!"
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 2, 2004 18:56:26 GMT -5
LOL... Do you think that is the entire picture?
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Post by RascalLeader on Oct 2, 2004 20:30:36 GMT -5
Perhaps not; but perhaps it is a major contributing factor. The other big factor would probably be all those warlords running about trying to take over while Earth was not looking. The first thing I would do if I was leading my very own fleet would be to nuke all the STC system on the planet so those upstart colonist would not have a chance to go look up how to build any advanced weaponary that they could use against me. If they had already gotten rid of it in some stupid machine cruisade like the Butlerian Jihad (Dune), all the better.... Manic laugher To this add planetary catastrophes, asteroids hitting the planet and wars caused by over population, before you could ask "How do you make.....?" all the STC are gone.
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Post by Philip on Oct 3, 2004 6:49:40 GMT -5
This is turning into a debate on the Age of Strife. Though relevant, it is way of topic. Perhaps I should do a fourth thread: STC [Part 4: Degeneration]. I'm also aware that this is all going to tie into the Adeptus Mechanicus at some point.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 3, 2004 8:03:07 GMT -5
The problems here is that 'people' - this includes everyone, not just the individuals that are posting here - are getting confused between the specific statement of the 'fluff', the imagery, and the considered discussion and interpretations thereof. Once again it's like trying to find the 'celts' in (pre)history. You can do it if you use separate strands of evidence and then do not consistently apply those self same strands.
What was the STC? Standard Template Construct. Well all know this, so nothing special there. Phillip wishes to create the following distinction:
[/li][li]STC is sub-divided between the system (the actual device itself, i.e. hardware) and the database of constructs (software), which includes the 'operating system' (an AI or PI, not an MI). This seems reasonable.
[/li][li]STC is not just a supplemental computer system of use to "individual" colonists, but is rather the 'central processing unit' for the entire colony. I would personally argue that this is too much of a stretch and assumes far too much about colonisation. That there might be a 'central CPU' is reasonable, but to extend this to being the "STC"... Naah.
[/li][li]The corporations 'ran' the former 'empire' of the Golden/Dark Age of Technology. This creates a rather standard approach whereby the 'cyberpunk' imagery is displaced by the overt religosity of the 40k universe. There is the tacit assumption that a culture shift is mirrored by a complete change in economy. This would be incorrect but is a wider discussion than strictly permissible here.
Some of the above is reasonable, some of it not. The idea, of course, is to create something which is reasonably consistent with the 'fluff' but which is otherwise not too caught up in the sometimes spurious assumptions required to create complete conformance.
So, again, what is STC? I think we're all reasonable secure in the fact that it was not just a database of designs. Rather, it was an interactive 'expert system' that produced designs based upon the specific demands of the individual. If you didn't want to modify a design then out came a standardised approach. "House, neoclassical; American 18th century", "House, pre-industrial; mudhut"... or whatever. It is also reasonable to suggest that it had the capability - however that is defined - to analyse the properties of materials, etc. Furthermore, the implications are that it was possible to 'attach' an auto/robo-factory so that it would produce specific designs in 'mass'...
So now we're left with a "black box" affair, with lots of USB ports (or the equivalent). Nothing wrong with that.
Who had access to the STC? That's the real question. It's basically a "magic box" in the 'fluff' - or at least that's how some people prefer it - that was used by colonists. It supposedly contained "all human knowledge"... but why? By the time that they would need the more advanced knowledge they're already going to have a substantial manufacturing economy. By the time that they have that they're not going to need the STC...
Who 'owned' the STC? A corporation? Perhaps...
The Origins of the adeptus mechanicus? This needs a complete rework. The assumption that all those individuals "in the know" died out and technology was viewed as 'holy' seems overtly shallow.
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Post by Philip on Oct 3, 2004 10:28:56 GMT -5
[/li][li]STC is not just a supplemental computer system of use to "individual" colonists, but is rather the 'central processing unit' for the entire colony. I would personally argue that this is too much of a stretch and assumes far too much about colonisation. That there might be a 'central CPU' is reasonable, but to extend this to being the "STC"... Naah. [/quote] I just pick on this point for now, I’m thinking that the STC may be like a modular rack mount unit, and is just one element of the colony’s central computer system. The STC could be accessed and managed ‘on-line’ using something similar to a web browser. In a person has clearance (like a colony designer), a program on their PC could access the STC and communicate with it, collect relevant info (‘USB’ ports on PC not STC), and search for design matches, which can then be forwarded to the factories/ engineers. Modified STC designs can be stored locally on designer/ engineers local network servers (I would guess that the file format (.stc ) of even modified STC design would be encrypted and would require a link to an active ‘STC rack mount unit’ in order for a program to open it. This could be cracked, but you get the idea) The central ‘STC rack mount unit’ is the property of [Acme] Corporation, and is rented/ serviced and updated by the [Acme] corporation. Tampering with the STC is a criminal act.
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Post by Sojourner on Oct 10, 2004 8:21:06 GMT -5
Rofl. That is actually quite humorous. I can imagine a colonist walking down a brand new street looking at all the standard plan houses then coming across an architectural masterpiece of a mansion...
"OMFG h4x!"
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 10, 2004 18:35:01 GMT -5
LOL... Hardy har. It has been suggested that I'm not as 'harsh' on threads as I could be. Please continue to prove the validity of this thread! (Mock-harsh as a means of producing interesting infromation here...)
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Post by Destecado on Dec 30, 2004 14:46:56 GMT -5
While doing research for the origins of the Mezzan, I think I may have struck on a possible reasoning behing the creation of STC units.
The design may have originated from a sociological system called an ortegrity. The Ortegrity is a “mind-brain” compatible system of organizing humans. It can be used by a small group of individuals or a giant corporation with hundreds of thousands of employees.
The Ortegrity is a “system of human organization that creates a conflict-free environment for decision making and action implementation”. This is an environment that strives to increase the efficiency and productivity of the organization or society. efficiency under such a system is predicted to increase 10 to 1000 times.
Colonists arriving on a new world will have a limited amount of resources. It is therefore in their best interest to maximize these resources to their full potential. It would be possible to input the relavent planetary data and then the STC would produce the "best" design for the job.
Unlike our current society where you can by ten different types of the same apperatus, the STC would create one specific design for a motorized vehicle...given the parameters enetered.
Having one specific type of vehicle means that spare parts are easy to come by, because everyones vehicle is the same. It is unlike our society where you need reams of catalogs or online databases to order a specific part for a given type of vehicle.
The STC is also probably interactive. As Kage has stated, after a colony has reached a certain size or gained a general level of technical experties, they may diverge from the specific patterns set down by the STC.
The STC would be sort of like a comprehensive engineering primer to get a new colony started. It would contain basic designs, but these would still need to be tailored to operate in the specific enviroment...they would also only be effective up to a certain tech level.
I don't see colonials STCs having technical or engineering plans for building a star ship (Why would the colonists have need of these)?
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 30, 2004 18:53:16 GMT -5
I don't see colonials STCs having technical or engineering plans for building a star ship (Why would the colonists have need of these)? Exactly, as stated previously. By the time that they have the industrial infrastructure to be able to produce starships the point is going to be moot anyway...
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Post by Zholud on Dec 31, 2004 6:25:22 GMT -5
The design may have originated from a sociological system called an ortegrity. The Ortegrity is a “mind-brain” compatible system of organizing humans. Cut’n’paste from here I guess. However, I cannot see how could it be linked to the STC, which is expert euristic system and is not directly linked to socium. We can have one colonists and working STC, while anything social is absent. Unlike our current society where you can by ten different types of the same apperatus, the STC would create one specific design for a motorized vehicle...given the parameters enetered. I fully agree with that. The competition has its adverse effects, and monopolistic competition, which introduces product differentiation as well. The word standard implies that for each task on each planet one type of vehicle is optimal. For different task another vehicle is made. The STC is also probably interactive. Of course the system is interactive – it has to know desires of colonists and conditions of the planet. I don't see colonials STCs having technical or engineering plans for building a star ship (Why would the colonists have need of these)? I think that if asked the system may produce blueprints for starship, at least for STL ships. Note that they can be sub-optimal and inferior to ships designed with man’s help…
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Post by Destecado on Dec 31, 2004 13:34:28 GMT -5
Cut’n’paste from here I guess. However, I cannot see how could it be linked to the STC, which is expert euristic system and is not directly linked to socium. We can have one colonists and working STC, while anything social is absent. from your answer, I surmise that you are being quasi-facetious. You are however correct about the source of the description. It is the most concise and best definition of the system described by Timothy Wilken in his paper (which is about 70 pages). The basic assumption of the paper is to create an organization to maximize the efficiency of its members and of the organizations production. I see this carryiing over into the STC, by designing the best tool for the job given the parameters enetered. Choice is elimnated in favor of functionality and efficiency. It may be that an organization that was set up under the otegrity model designed the programing for the STCs and that is why they follow that format. Look at how much the internet has been shaped by Microsofts near monopoly of the computer market. It could be that the corporate culture of the company or organization that originally created the STCs was expressed in its design. You meant heuristic right? Heuristic: involving or serving as an aid to learning, discovery, or problem-solving by experimental and especially trial-and-error methods. Is it your reasoning that the STC is more an interactive learning system that not only spits out blueprints, but educates the colonists on engineering and other skills? If so, then our views of the STC system are different. True the STC has reams of information about engineering and other skills, but these are used for generating the optimal blueprint for construction. It does not have the ability to teach this information...although if you asked for a text on engineering, it could probably download its specific knowledge into a book or data slate. The question arises if its interactive beyond accepting the given parameters needed to build a structure or vehicle. If it is a house to be built on pylons in a lagoon, does it profide for stabilizing the soil in order to assure that the pylons will be on a stable footing? How much information does the STC provide beyond the blueprints? Ok, I could agree that designs for lower tech level STL ships might be available...or atleast system ships. These would be useful for colonies set up on planets with thin atmospheres or space colonies.
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Post by Zholud on Dec 31, 2004 16:47:23 GMT -5
from your answer, I surmise that you are being quasi-facetious. It’s just he day when I hardly can be serious. Sorry if I’ve offended you. Generally, please bear in mind that I only this week came back to more or less active reading and posting. Up to the last time I haven’t even known that e.g. Codex: SM was out… but that’s aside. I see this carryiing over into the STC, by designing the best tool for the job given the parameters enetered. Choice is elimnated in favor of functionality and efficiency. It may be that an organization that was set up under the otegrity model designed the programing for the STCs and that is why they follow that format. OK, now I see your point and I guess it is a possible scenario. We yet to decide, however, whether megacorps or government-sponsored researchers were behind the creation of STC. Of course, both were able to use ortegrity as the way of management. My view on the unanimous voting in particular and non-competitive systems in general is generally sceptic. Maybe it’s the bias of being an economist As a side note – Saim (Parliament) in Rzech Przespolita (Polish-Lithuanian republic) had unanimity rule and ruled the state for over a hundred years… Look at how much the internet has been shaped by Microsofts near monopoly of the computer market. It could be that the corporate culture of the company or organization that originally created the STCs was expressed in its design. Another question – is it good or bad. I for example honestly try to use non-MS soft, unlike price factor starts shining too brightly. I even thought to set Linux on my ‘puter, but put that idea aside for a while You meant heuristic right? Yep, correct. Is it your reasoning that the STC is more an interactive learning system that not only spits out blueprints, but educates the colonists on engineering and other skills? No, it’s more idea that on each planet, where you may meet hazards unknown and un-thought out on Earth. Thus system should learn new environment(s) and even possible new laws of nature. And on this basis and with the help of existing database, input from colonists and sensors and heuristic programme it creates and upgrades tools. It does not educate but it may educate if needed. True the STC has reams of information about engineering and other skills, but these are used for generating the optimal blueprint for construction Exactly my words! Key word being generating The question arises if its interactive beyond accepting the given parameters needed to build a structure or vehicle. If it is a house to be built on pylons in a lagoon, does it profide for stabilizing the soil in order to assure that the pylons will be on a stable footing? I guess it is in blueprints. If the 1st version of these pylons fell, information on this is inputted and new version is created, because STC learns. Ok, I could agree that designs for lower tech level STL ships might be available...or atleast system ships. These would be useful for colonies set up on planets with thin atmospheres or space colonies. Plus the warp drive maybe patented tech and thus deliberately absent.
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