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Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 10:52:40 GMT -5
Hi Kage, this is a reworking of my other threads (STC:CS/ Invictonburg), I understand they are a few areas that you would like to change. I am willing to start from scrap and look at it again and the concepts behind it. Hopefully this will eventually be part of a revised ‘Invictonburg’. I know you are very busy, so I will limit my posting in it =Back to Basics=This is a reworking of my STC:CS/ Invictonburg threads and will replace them in due coarse. This thread starts from the very beginning so I can take into account as many peoples ideas from the ground up. =STC=The Imperium builds everything using the STC ( Standard Template Construction system) a huge data base of pre-designed structures, equipment and vehicles. (Added Note: It was originally designed to be used by colonists 1st Edition: RT) =Buildings=The area of the STC I wish to concentrate on is in regard to buildings in 40K, its origins, how colonies were set up during the Golden Age of Technology, how they have changed over the last 20K years and their design influence on contemporary 40K. =Related threads (to be added later)=- STC [Part 1: Origins] (this thread)
- STC [Part 2: Mission to Mars] coming later
- STC [Part 3: Conquering the Stars] coming later
=Current Summary of Thread=As this thread increases, I'll post a summary below.- The Origins of the STC lie in mass production.
- Design standards formed by dominant monopolies.
- The STC covers both designs and methods of construction.
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Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 10:53:07 GMT -5
=Start=At present I think that the STC lies very far back in the Imperium’s past, from before even the Golden Age of Technology. As a starting point I am thinking of using current modern day technology, to extrapolate from there to the point were we have a system to support 30 billion+ people (if we assume that our Earth’s population increases). =Questions=So, what changes have to come about to allow this to happen, and who would do it? My first thoughts concern political will, food shortages, and transport infrastructure. As to who initially develops it, I think the Chinese are a good bet: estimated to be a economic and military super power by 2050, high population density, controlled society and rapid economic expansion seem to be good base in which to develop the earliest parts of the STC. All ideas welcome Added concept ideas 06/09/04==Construction=With regard to buildings, I notice modern construction techniques are becoming more and more standardised, and more parts are pre-fabbed before getting to the site. Even areas that are traditionally quite ‘open’ are getting the control treatment. - For example all concrete structures are poured into forms built on site out of plywood. Now in America they have an interlocking polystyrene form system for constructing the foundation of houses. These hollow polystyrene forms are taken to the site, locked together and then the concrete is poured into these. It is much quicker than the old method, and also means the insulating/ water proof layers are redundant as they are an inbuilt part of the system.
=Pre-fabrication=Many items are pre-fabbed off site that were once made to plans on site as needed. - Roof trusses used to be made on site, now they are manufactured in a workshop and ship complete to the site were they are just ‘dropped into position’ and secured. This drastically speeds up roof assembly, and the roof can also be made temporarily ‘weather proof’ in the same day.
- Fitted kitchens used to be custom made on site and very (very) expensive due to having a master craftsman build it. Now fitted kitchens are easy and quick. You can even design your kitchen from ‘standard units’ to your liking, it is then pre-fabbed (or pulled from stock) transported and can be fitted very quickly by monkeys.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 6, 2004 11:39:09 GMT -5
Nah, if any one is going to develop it will be the japanese or americans, but i can't see what bearing that would have on anything as by the time of the GAoT the world was as one, was it not.
They had a kind of STC during the american civil war, for mass producing rifles, then later it was cars, Im begining to think the STC is a bit of a red herring as all it seems to represent at the moment is a mass produced object that happens to conform to designs layed down thousands of years before hand ie lasguns, leman russ and landraiders. there is nothing to differenciate them from contempory designs in the way they are produced, all weapons today are standardised, as are tanks. The only difference or problem that arises is the ability of the person with the plans to actually fabricate the design.
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Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 12:00:16 GMT -5
Nah, if any one is going to develop it will be the japanese or americans, but i can't see what bearing that would have on anything as by the time of the GAoT the world was as one, was it not. I’m thinking of the very earliest examples that will one day evolve into the STC. The Chinese seem a good bet, but I any nation could be the catalyst. I chose China because of rapid economic expansion and population density (I'm starting 50 years in the future, things may have changed?) I want the earliest examples, to show the cause and affect that leads (eventually) to the STC. They had a kind of STC during the american civil war, for mass producing rifles, then later it was cars, Im begining to think the STC is a bit of a red herring as all it seems to represent at the moment is a mass produced object that happens to conform to designs layed down thousands of years before hand ie lasguns, leman russ and landraiders. there is nothing to differenciate them from contempory designs in the way they are produced, all weapons today are standardised, as are tanks. The only difference or problem that arises is the ability of the person with the plans to actually fabricate the design. I agree with all of that, much of modern building technique centres on mass production. As time passes the dominant players win out (monopoly) and set the standards (a modern PC is an example) however this doesn’t stop innovation. I thinking that the STC is just a collection of the very best designs from the whole Earth at the time it was ‘printed’ a snapshot of Earths currents designs. Then more plans for the equipment to build the designs, and even more designs for tools (to build the equipment, to build the tank). (Though a Leman Russ isn’t exactly high tech looking and tanks would probably be outdated by then) The STC designs relate to Colonisation, so it is like taking the whole of the Earth’s best designs and the methods to build them to your chosen Planet (must be like the Sims!) ;D =Added Questions==Licence=Would this mean that the STC is also a ‘ licence’ to produce goods according to the designs held in the STC? Would someone have to own the equivalent of ‘the original disk’?
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Post by Dazo on Sept 6, 2004 12:15:13 GMT -5
I can't believe i had forgotten that, that is a really old bit of fluff you just paraphrased(i think) yes that was the original purpose of the STC not weapons but tools and vehicles for the intrepid colonists during the expantion, oh my the clouds of forgotten fluff are parting, the light...its blinding...must remember where I read this . This is 1st ED stuff or close to (oh my god i'm having deja vu, have we had this conversation before) do you have the old rule books or white dwarves. The STC was designed I believe to be adaptable to local resource availability was it not
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Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 12:35:57 GMT -5
I can't believe i had forgotten that, that is a really old bit of fluff you just paraphrased(i think) yes that was the original purpose of the STC not weapons but tools and vehicles for the intrepid colonists during the expantion, oh my the clouds of forgotten fluff are parting, the light...its blinding...must remember where I read this . Didn’t you wonder why I kept banging on about STC in regard to colonies? You must have thought I was nuts ;D This is 1st ED stuff or close to (oh my god i'm having deja vu, have we had this conversation before) do you have the old rule books or white dwarves. Yes I have the original RT (1987!) and WDs from god knows when (hundreds). The STC was designed I believe to be adaptable to local resource availability was it not Yes it was, so colonists could make the most of what they found. I want to include this aspect also, and the ways around ‘difficult’ worlds.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 6, 2004 13:24:27 GMT -5
Well yes, it makes sense now though
Well yes ;D
So can you give some quotes of what was written about the STC's, it would be helpful to know the old fluff, which is what kage likes best i think, as opposed to some of the new stuff
But how would it be now, this during the GAoT when every thing worked properly, would it have changed, how much of those systems actually remain today. I cant help but think that most of the STC's were lost or incomplete
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 6, 2004 18:49:58 GMT -5
Sorry for brief comments... I'm currently trying to 2nd draft one section of my results chapter and, well, it's a nightmare. And only 3 more weeks to go... Darn those demanding bar-stewards.
With regards to 'standardisation', I get a strong impression that you are misinterpreting the concept of 'standard bolt sizes' with STC. Severely so. I refer you to this little story by means of anecdote:
This is both an argument for and againt your posts. I really do think that your concept destroys the hiveworld approach, though.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 7, 2004 3:24:31 GMT -5
That was fascinating kage, I actually find that incredibly helpful with regard to the progression of STC over time. So the really basic stuff wouldn't change, though I would point out that there was actually a better design layed down at one point by Brunnel(sp) he had a different rail gauge, and had it been adopted a lot of the troubles we are having with railways would have been avoided. So are you saying if a hive world started as an STC design it would actually still look the same 10,000 years later, bigger but the same. What about fasion, the style of imperial architecture is I would say radically different from GAoT. So it might start out really startrekky but the new stuff(not the stuff for the peasants) would be different to reflect the times. It would be from these nodes of difference that the hive would start to take a new look, more necromundan which I assume from what you have said is the way a hive should be.
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Post by Philip on Sept 7, 2004 9:30:37 GMT -5
With regards to 'standardisation', I get a strong impression that you are misinterpreting the concept of 'standard bolt sizes' with STC. As for standardisation, you're right, there are many historic reasons that thing are the way they are, but standards do change if the technology is new. =New=For example, say a country builds a high speed mag-lev train would it be limited by previous (rail) design? If they were retro fitting an existing line, then yes, there would be limitations. One limitation that strings to mind is that they would have to keep the existing carriage width in order to fit into the tunnels built when the original (non mag-lev) track was laid. If they were building a completely new line and tunnels (due to the fact that retrofitting an existing line is out of the question, as it is busy and the country can’t afford the down time or maybe and tunnels turns are too sharp), then no the new train carriages would not be limited by the previous design, and they could be wider if needed. =Colonies=With regard to how this affects colonies there wouldn’t be any existing infrastructure on the planet and the designers may take the initiative and correct many design limitations of Earth based designs. In essence they have free reign to design it as they see fit. However once up and running correction to the STC may be difficult.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 7, 2004 18:18:17 GMT -5
Momentum of design concepts is something that is going to crop up... people like to see continuity even though division seems to be the goal of those who study the process (e.g. historians).
Once more your comments on standardisation are interesting, but I think that in terms of the construction industry on other words misses the point...
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Post by zholud on Sept 10, 2004 4:01:43 GMT -5
Before going on the origin of the STC, there should be a clear definition on what STC actually is. From what I see in Philip’s words it is just list of optimised designs, which are easy DIY stuff. For me it is something entirely different, namely eurekistic (from eureka – Greek for I found) expert system, which is more than database for design. What does this mean? Let me show on an example. Settlers came to desert world. They need houses and transport. The STC system asks people to feed it with data on climate, their needs (e.g. we need fast or/and heavy-duty vehicle) and available materials. Getting these data the system actually invents the necessary commodity. So, Rhino on desert world will have wheels instead of tracks, as well as build-in heating/cooling system. The fact that every colony most likely comes with some materials from off-world, most likely standardised, means that many designs, in spite of independent invention will be similar. So, if you have 1 square meter steel sheets in materials, you make 1 list wide vehicle to minimise problems with cutting metal for 1.238 m wide vehicle, which could be better for specific environment. The need for vehicles at the first stage of colonisation supposes they are build from limited list of materials, stored on the ship, thus Rhinos are more or less similar across the Imperium. Recall, first expeditions travelled to their planets for generations and have no knowledge what awaits them on site, thus cannot have just DIY houses stored on the ship, because house in jungles differs from it on ice world, water world, desert, etc. And eureka system already exist, e.g. chess programs that learn themselves and actually invent new combinations, unaware that e.g. Italian defence is centuries old.
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Post by Philip on Sept 11, 2004 13:53:36 GMT -5
Hi zholud
I like this idea as a self contained concept, but I feel it doesn’t fit 100% with the 40K set-up. I have a few reservations about incorporating this idea.
If the STC actually designed stuff, it would mean an AI component (and we all know how the Imperium feels about those) would have to part of the STC. The whole issue of an AI in the STC would cause huge conflicts with the fluff.
An STC ‘AI’ could design all kinds of new ‘designs’ based of its own internal data and concepts. If the AI survived it would be complete and up and running and could design anything asked of it (in effect the STC would be a designer skilled in all scientific fields, and every ‘ology). If its data was incomplete or damaged, it wouldn’t be able to design anything as its AI would be lacking in understanding (as a crude example: like if the AI lack the concept of gravity, its designs would be useless and make no sense).
I wouldn’t include any AI in the STC system.
If however, reading your post again, if the STC were just a data base with some ‘matching software’ I think that could work in 40K, as it could be ‘partially complete’ and still function. If a design is missing from the database when the software tried to match the planets data to a design it would come back ‘no match’ or ‘data missing’. It would also mean no AI would be required to design anything (and to design from scratch an AI would be needed).
I also think it would have a manual override.
Overall I think that colonists weren’t that dumb, they would have a scientific officer or at the very least just somebody who knows their stuff (hacker/ cracker/ hobbyist) in their colony.
I mean, if you was going to a new world and everything relied on the STC wouldn’t you want someone who could fix it?
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Post by zholud on Sept 13, 2004 5:33:07 GMT -5
If the STC actually designed stuff, it would mean an AI component (and we all know how the Imperium feels about those) would have to part of the STC. The whole issue of an AI in the STC would cause huge conflicts with the fluff. Quite the opposite! I think one of the greatest ironies of 40k is that Mechanicus search for full STC w/o understanding that this is AI, and not just database with all possible designs. They think that if they gather all blueprints made by STC they will get STC, while this is so wrong as to expect to create printer by gathering everything it ever has printed. If its data was incomplete or damaged, it wouldn’t be able to design anything as its AI would be lacking in understanding This works only if data is necessary for direct design… for example you can be fine if data on corrosion was lost if you are on the planet with not very corrosive atmosphere/hydrosphere… and sufficiently advanced system gets self-repair, self-diagnostics and can survive significant loss of data before dying. I wouldn’t include any AI in the STC system. Then how does STC system works in your opinion? How constructors were able to input all possible solutions directly in blueprints? My point is that quite possibly that Mechanicus cannot find it is because they seek for blueprints, not AI. And w/o AI STC does not work. I mean, if you was going to a new world and everything relied on the STC wouldn’t you want someone who could fix it? If the ship disintegrates in space you need someone to fix it as well. If you believe in Men of Stone Vs Men of Iron story, mankind has no manual override for advanced computer systems…
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Post by Philip on Sept 13, 2004 6:30:29 GMT -5
Nice thinking zholud, this is a brilliant idea! So in essence the AI was ripped out of the STC when humans were killing off the Iron Men. All that is now left in 40K is the designs the STC made, which the Adeptus Mechanicus is now collecting up and cataloguing but they can't design new designs because the AIs are 'dead' (neatly explains why new designs in 40K aren't forthcoming). Finial note, =Iron Men are the AI of the STC?=AI: Could it be that the Iron Men were the STC personified, meaning the Iron Men were the AI of the STC? (Fits in nice with my nRobot ideas ) Then how does STC system works in your opinion? How constructors were able to input all possible solutions directly in blueprints? My point is that quite possibly that Mechanicus cannot find it is because they seek for blueprints, not AI. And w/o AI STC does not work. Well before you came up with that lightning bolt, I figured that as humans could only live on world which their bodies could tolerate, the number of designs would be large but not impossible. However I really do like the 'missing AI/ iron men' idea.
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