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Post by GroundZero on Aug 22, 2004 10:42:27 GMT -5
Something just wasn't rubbing me right with all I've been reading, and I finally figured it out.
Communism is state control over what we would consider 'private industries' and pools these resources together and redistributes them on a need basis. Think Lenon "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" (I haven't slept, and that isn't exactly right, but the point remains)
The Imperium supplies it's own military, it's own religion where hersey is a crime against the state, and dominates all ways of life for all those living under the Imperium State. I think this could realistically be represented all the way down to localities on planets, but at the very least there should be a redistributive nature to the entire Anargo Sector. This takes the form of a tithes in exchange for military protection, food stuffs, or technology. Looking at how communism functioned under Stalin combined with the Spanish Inquisition (not the Catholic one) would provide a sufficient understanding for how the Imperium functions, and is a model for 'default' planets.
Or I'm full of it.
GZ
NB; it should also be noted that communism enforces a "greater good" mentality through a combination of propaganda, mysticsm and fear...sound like anyone?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 22, 2004 11:48:46 GMT -5
Hey thats not bad, I always tended to see the imperium as more of a nazi germany, but it seems more like GW have hashed together all the worst examples of humanity into one homogenous lump of pure evil. I must say i don't like it, its utterly unfeasable, these systems fall like krakatoa, catastrophically. I'm not sure it would be like that across the entire imperium, there must b e some places where sanity has maintained a grip
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Post by Philip on Aug 22, 2004 13:54:39 GMT -5
Hey thats not bad, I always tended to see the imperium as more of a nazi germany, but it seems more like GW have hashed together all the worst examples of humanity into one homogenous lump of pure evil. I must say i don't like it, its utterly unfeasable, these systems fall like krakatoa, catastrophically. The Imperium has many different types of directorship, and just like our history they usually last as long as the leader lasts. Problem for those in 40K is that the Emperor is still 'alive' after 10,000 years; so his dictatorship endures. |
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Post by GroundZero on Aug 22, 2004 14:02:29 GMT -5
I was pontificating on the theories behind the Emperor's rule and how that could be applied to fill in where the fluff ends. I really am that bored this afternoon.
GZ
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Post by Philip on Aug 22, 2004 15:02:17 GMT -5
I guess any dictatorship will do.
Personally, I think the Imperium (in many ways) acts like the Mongols (around 1200+).
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 6:24:26 GMT -5
Is the Imperium communist? Hmmn... I'll make the foolish mistake here of talking about something I'm not overtly familiar with, but I would have to say a 'no' to that. Of course, such responses are tied up in personal intepretation, but while tithe redistribution does occur it does not occur evenly (okay, 'all pigs are equal' springs to mind here), or at least between all worlds. It just doesn't seem that even...
As later pointed out you get the same overall effect with the 'dictatorship' (or even autocracy) approach without the ideological implications.
Oh yes, I've had to move this thread since it seemed more chatty than providing a coherent discussion point as seen in direct application to the ASP...
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Post by zholud on Sept 1, 2004 13:49:03 GMT -5
The Imperium has totalitarian regime and not Nazism/fascism/communism as its system, considering significant differences from goals of each social philosophy. Among communism’s ideas are equality, absence of private property and inheritance rights, etc… yeah, the problem was that system won’t work because people are selfish (that allows them to survive) and the system in the USSR was far from ideas of Marx. But Imperium has families/clans/consortiums, all of which are closer to wild capitalism, merchant trade similar to medieval Europe and middle east even earlier. Moreover totalitarian regime needs control and constant monitoring over its citizens, which is impossible task for million world wide Imperium. That led me to creation of the threat-totalitarian as Imperial regime. This means that citizen exercise self-control and shadowing of neighbours because they know that if something goes wrong, Imperium won’t come with judges but with executioners. This threat of retribution for blc/nation/city/hive/planet’s sins keeps people in line… at least tries to.   |
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Post by Philip on Sept 5, 2004 6:00:26 GMT -5
I agree with zholud that the Imperium is not communist. I was thinking a bit more about the Mongols and how they ruled their empire. I think there are quite a few similarities in the concepts of Mongolian government and the Imperium's government, including the religious aspects. Quotes sourced from this siteI don't want to quote to much from this site, below are just a few snips. Is Genghis the prototype of the Emperor? If you substituted 'tribes' with 'worlds' it sounds like a similar set-up t the Imperium. Reminds me of the way the Imperial space is divided into sectors, with independent rule all under one rule. Under Mongol rule people kept their culture, same with the Imperium. Reading through the Mongol's history there are many similarities in government, religious tolerance and combat prowess the mirrors the Imperium. Though not 100% a match, it is very close. Fascist regimes do not show 'religious tolerance', and are ruthless in stamping their own brand of religion onto others. The Mongols didn't do this, neither does the Imperium. Under the Mongol system conquered people just accept Mongol rule and recognise that the Khan is 'God appointed' and that's it as far as I can tell that it religious wise. Same with the Imperium, people can keep their religions as long as the recognise the Emperor of Mankind as 'God' or an aspect of God (even the Cult Mechanicus recognises the Emperor as the master of mankind but doesn't recognise the Cult Imperialis). In combat if a city resisted it was totally destroyed and everyone put to death, however if they surrendered immediately they become part of the Mongol Empire. This is pretty much how the Imperium deals with rediscovered worlds (the Imperium has zero tolerance of 'freedom fighters') As a person preference I like the idea of the Emperor of mankind being as powerful and dynamic a leader as Genghis (with added Psyker powers!) who is both ruthless to the point of madness and at the same time tolerant of humans belief systems and compassionate to all humans. |
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Post by zholud on Sept 20, 2004 12:24:45 GMT -5
I was thinking a bit more about the Mongols and how they ruled their empire. I think there are quite a few similarities in the concepts of Mongolian government and the Imperium's government, including the religious aspects. Generally, I know quite a bit on Mongols… after all the territory of the present Ukraine was under the rule of Mongols, so they are in our history textbooks… Is Genghis the prototype of the Emperor? If you substituted 'tribes' with 'worlds' it sounds like a similar set-up t the Imperium. No, Genghis is not more similar to the Emperor than e.g. Alexander the Great, Nero or chairman Mao. More important is that the Imperium is more result of post-Heresy built up when too much power should not be given into one hands. Quite likely that the Emperor used mlore integrated Imperium model. Reminds me of the way the Imperial space is divided into sectors, with independent rule all under one rule. They were given to khan’s children so that they don’t fight each other and not because the sectors/kakhanats are the best. Under Mongol rule people kept their culture, same with the Imperium. They used the idea that pay well and you may worship anyone as well – clearly not the case in Imperium. Culture and religion are often so much interrelated that you cannot kill 1st and leave 2nd. Reading through the Mongol's history there are many similarities in government, religious tolerance and combat prowess the mirrors the Imperium. Though not 100% a match, it is very close. in Imperium?! As to prowess, it was based on good natural selection for centuries combined with system that if one man runs away – ten from his squad are murdered and so on… but they aren’t clearly space marines. Fascist regimes do not show 'religious tolerance', and are ruthless in stamping their own brand of religion onto others. Nazi Germany for sure allowed Catholicism, orthodoxy, protestants… other religions were less wide-spread at that time and they were practiced by inferior races, so cannot be used by truly god-chosen nation. Same with the Imperium, people can keep their religions as long as the recognise the Emperor of Mankind as 'God' or an aspect of God (even the Cult Mechanicus recognises the Emperor as the master of mankind but doesn't recognise the Cult Imperialis). Mechanicus are too important, so others try not to mess with them if they keep façade… what about polytheism, totemism, etc in the Imperium? In combat if a city resisted it was totally destroyed and everyone put to death, however if they surrendered immediately they become part of the Mongol Empire. There were other occurrences… This is pretty much how the Imperium deals with rediscovered worlds (the Imperium has zero tolerance of 'freedom fighters') But sometimes you have to kill ones willingly surrendered if you only suspect the taint. |
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Post by Sojourner on Sept 21, 2004 6:43:52 GMT -5
On a galactic scale, the Imperium shares some traits with communism economically. The Lenin quote certainly works perfectly for the tithe system. You could also look at it as a form of tax, but we tend to think of tax as being monetary.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 21, 2004 7:42:18 GMT -5
The Imperium, as with the rest of the 'fluff', is a blend. You put lots of ingredients together, add the spice that you prefer, and cook what you want... Frex, I don't see the Imperium as being as 'totalitarian' as zholud... But not going to get into that argument once again. It's like a foil compared to a sword... pointless...  |
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Post by zholud on Sept 21, 2004 10:36:33 GMT -5
On a galactic scale, the Imperium shares some traits with communism economically. I cannot agree with this, especially if you are speaking about classical communist and not later remakes used not only in modern social democracy but in the 60s Yugoslavia, China during big leap, etc. The main point – communism – only government property on all capital (i.e. all resources but labour), while in the Imperium most industries belong to groups (Mechanicus, SM homeworlds) or privately owned. Imperium only asks to pay tithes in time… or the property will change hands to more able. But you’ll never see it. but we tend to think of tax as being monetary. We? After all my approach to tithe that can be found on Imperium thread I guess and it is chiefly non-monetary… Kage, its threat-totalitarian system, not totalitarian. It is much less totalitarian as 20th century examples of totalitarian systems because direct permanent control is impossible. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 22, 2004 5:30:56 GMT -5
Ah, now you've changed your terminology to something a tad more reasonable, although many of the your arguments remain the same. Ah well, whatever... |
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