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Post by Philip on Aug 7, 2004 4:42:02 GMT -5
I would like these 'concept' threads to be for the 'brainstorming' of concepts and how they would play out, and ultimately link together with other 'concept' threads.
I would like to design a 'base concept' of 40K were all the 'fluff' becomes 'interpretations' of the base concept, but the base concept has to hold together...
=Powerfields=
Are Powerfields a way that GAoT scientists and designers could change the laws of physics to allow the impossible to happen?
Should there be a complete alternate theory of physics governing matter and energy under Powerfield influence?
Is Powerfield 'technology and theory' the for runner of warp technology?
I came up with these questions in my Robot concept and wonder what everyone thought. Input is most welcome.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 7, 2004 13:19:57 GMT -5
Are you talking forcefields (i.e. conversion, etc.) or the more inconsistently applied 'powerfield' that is used offensively in 'power fists', 'power swords', etc.?
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Post by Philip on Aug 7, 2004 13:29:38 GMT -5
Both
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 7, 2004 13:58:27 GMT -5
Despite that horrendous spamming, you're going to have to extend your ideas to give me anything to reply to.  For a start, I don't agree with the idea that they "change the laws of physics to allow the impossible to happen". Rather they work on 'superscience' principles (and the Rule of the Cool) to function. If you want the impossible to happen, then turn to psykers... Was forcefield technology a precursor to warp technology? It's a possibility, though I wouldn't work with the principle that the 'Geller Field' is a forcefield per se, or at least the same as the other types mentioned in the 40k universe... (Oh, and out of interest if one goes by the GURPS TL scheme the technology to produce forcefields is actually a post-warp drive capability... ) |
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Post by Philip on Aug 7, 2004 14:07:23 GMT -5
I'm thinking that powerfield technology is a whole branch of science that cross the gap between the real world and the warp. Under a power field matter starts to behave in unusual ways, the powerfield on the power glove disrupts matter, and various force fields are can repel matter or convert it to light. Also I think Anti-grav would come under this branch of science, along with the Geller Field.
All these things are 'magic' there is no way to explain it using modern day science.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 7, 2004 14:23:43 GMT -5
Again, you'll have to expand your ideas. The greater majority of the technology in the 40k universe is 'magic', but that doesn't necessarily mean that it works upon magical principles (as it were).
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Post by Philip on Aug 7, 2004 14:50:45 GMT -5
It also doesn't mean on scientific principles either.
Basically I'm asking if all the 'magic fields' in 40K can be grouped under a new a law of physics?
Just as the warp is an alternate reality, are 'magic fileds' like little bubbles of alternate reality?
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 7, 2004 23:42:25 GMT -5
I can only answer it from my perspective, in which case the answers is remarkably easy: no. The more interesting question is why you're trying to suggest that they are 'magic', i.e. what your agenda is.
(And incidentally I do work on the principle that some technologies utilised in the Imperium are, in essence, enchantments. Problem is that there is a conceptual 'glitch' between the technology in magic whereby '(super)scientific fields' operate upon the concept of 'more energy more protection', while 'magic fields' tend to operate on the principle of 'one energy, one field'..)
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Post by Philip on Aug 8, 2004 0:52:13 GMT -5
I can only answer it from my perspective, in which case the answers is remarkably easy: no. The more interesting question is why you're trying to suggest that they are 'magic', i.e. what your agenda is. My agenda is it move away from the 'Star Trek' style sci-fi were the technology has to be explained using contemporary science as it really doesn't work, and always (in the final reductive analysis) resorts to 'magic' (Heisenberg compensators anyone) By lumping all fields into a new branch of indescribable physics, the focus changes from 'how does it work' to 'what does it do'. Seeing as 40K has a magical element in the form of the Warp, this new branch of 'powerfield physics' has elements of both the 'real' and the 'magic'. (And incidentally I do work on the principle that some technologies utilised in the Imperium are, in essence, enchantments. Problem is that there is a conceptual 'glitch' between the technology in magic whereby '(super)scientific fields' operate upon the concept of 'more energy more protection', while 'magic fields' tend to operate on the principle of 'one energy, one field'..) I though this powerfield theory could bridge that gap. For example, the field may have a 'magical' effect but it is powered with standard energy, and as you say, more energy equals more 'magic effects' in the form of protection etc. Also the more energy applied the more bizarre the effects, such as void shields. Just as the laws of physics seem to fall apart during the big bang, black holes and my fav quantum effects when things get very small so powerfield theory can be added to the list. Perhaps powefield theory is like quantum mechanics, it was there all along, but humans didn't notice it until around M20? Also I'm thinking that as the warp reacts to the biological, then maybe items that use powerfield technology are in some way biologic or rather incorporate 'artificial biology' to initiate the field effect. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 8, 2004 1:03:13 GMT -5
40k even how I interpret it does not have strictly have "Star Trek" type technology... a lot of pseudo-science with a nodding head to real science, but generally a suspension of disbelief around certain things, e.g. that warp drive, psykers, etc., are not only possible but exist, etc.
The creation of a 'new physics' of powerfields that is predicated entirely on hand-waving, e.g. "It's magic, so we can make it do what we want", is not something that I would been keen on or, indeed, permit. Despite overt moves to seemingly shift 40k into mainstream fantasy I am keen on keeping the "science" portion of the original "science-fantasy" genre. What does this mean? Merely that there is a technological base which works upon similar principles to those that are found in the real world, not the invention of "powerfield physics" which essentially invalidates everything else...
The eldar, for example, and their "psychic engineering". An entire society built upon magic ("power field tech" for you) or one that blends technology and magic?
With that said 'warp tech' is a feasible means to be achieved through both the application of the 'mind' (psykers) and technology (arguably warp drive itself).
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Post by Philip on Aug 8, 2004 13:00:30 GMT -5
The creation of a 'new physics' of powerfields that is predicated entirely on hand-waving, e.g. "It's magic, so we can make it do what we want", is not something that I would been keen on or, indeed, permit. I would want a total free reign either, but I think you could set boundaries say 'for so and so energy I get this'. With the effects limited by power output? The eldar, for example, and their "psychic engineering". An entire society built upon magic ("power field tech" for you) or one that blends technology and magic? I see your point, but I would say it would be (slightly) different. The powerfield theories deal with real power fed into a system to create an effect whereas “psychic engineering" is about manipulating matter with the mind. Its a fine line, the effect of powerfield shields and Psyker shields is minimal, but I would say that Psyker based effects are 'one up' from powerfield theory (and something the new 'Robots' in my other thread can't do). So a Psyker shield is more sophisticated (and less bound ny the laws of science) than a powerfield. With that said 'warp tech' is a feasible means to be achieved through both the application of the 'mind' (psykers) and technology (arguably warp drive itself). Psykers improved warp travel and would be a later edition (In reference to the new 'Robots' psykers have out evolved the Robots) |
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 8, 2004 13:32:35 GMT -5
I would want a total free reign either, but I think you could set boundaries say 'for so and so energy I get this'. With the effects limited by power output? I'm not overtly keen on the integration of technomantic concepts into machines. As mentioned on another thread it tends to smack of the 'munckin' and, not only that, tends to invalidate your proposed integration with the eldar. (E.g. they are already part warp technology and can, with their fields, perform magic anyway...) I see your point, but I would say it would be (slightly) different. The powerfield theories deal with real power fed into a system to create an effect whereas “psychic engineering" is about manipulating matter with the mind. We're going to disagree on this point. Psychic engineering is, for me, the combination of this and the application to material technology. In other words, it's technomancy. Sorry, but I'm not liking or sold by the concepts thus far. |
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Post by Philip on Aug 8, 2004 20:49:44 GMT -5
I'm not overtly keen on the integration of technomantic concepts into machines. As mentioned on another thread it tends to smack of the 'munckin' and, not only that, tends to invalidate your proposed integration with the eldar. (E.g. they are already part warp technology and can, with their fields, perform magic anyway...) Like the term Technomancy, but I feel this term implies some form a psyker power is integrated and I want stronger distinctions. Powerfield theory, though it would have/ produce 'magical' effects would be a 'hard science'. Technology levels in 40K - =Contemporary science=
Lots of disjointed theories,
- =Advanced science=
Humans figure out how the material universe works and have a unified theory. Humans become aware of the warp, as the unified theory predicts it and explains it (even though they can't see it). Sub-light engines created, AI becomes a reality.
- =Powerfield theory=
Mastering the material universe, nRobots come into being, warp travel made possible.
This is the maximum humans level. They never make it past this point (as a society).
- =Psychic engineering (technomancy )=
Full understanding of the whole universe. Mastering the warp universe/ Psyker powers.
Maximum Eldar Tech level, never achieved by humans.
- =?=
Mastery of everything. No longer bound by either universes. Time travel becomes possible.
Slann/ C'tan Tech level (Necrons are not this level).
We're going to disagree on this point. Psychic engineering is, for me, the combination of this and the application to material technology. In other words, it's technomancy. I agree, re-jigged, see above. Sorry, but I'm not liking or sold by the concepts thus far. If you agreed with it all the concepts wouldn't develop, and the ideas would stagnate  Arguing against these ideas is what makes the finial result 'work', so keep cutting  |
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 9, 2004 1:51:22 GMT -5
Like the term Technomancy, but I feel this term implies some form a psyker power is integrated and I want stronger distinctions. Powerfield theory, though it would have/ produce 'magical' effects would be a 'hard science'... As to technomancy, it's not my term! But glad you like it anyway... Again, I disagree with how your describing "power field theory" and, indeed, the distinctions that you're making are not particularly valid. That 'science' might have been able to harness warp energy in some way seems rather obvious, but that doesn't mean that it necessarily has to be predicated upon psychic power. Rather a system - organic or inorganic - is created in such way that it channels warp energy. It is in essence an "enchanted object" (magic rod, sword, enchanted indiviudal... whatever you want to call it). Saying that it's actually "scientific" but happens to do the same thing as the warp... nah. Directing warp energy through specific 'patterns' is fine - and indeed canonical - but widening it out to poly-use doesn't sit right with me nor, indeed, use of the term 'power field'... Again, though, it's just in the way that you're describing it. There are questionable technologies that are represented in similar ways... =Powerfield theory=Mastering the material universe, nRobots come into being, warp travel made possible. Once again I intensely dislike the attribution of the artefactual harnessing of warp energy to be attributed to nRobots. It smacks of the same horrible 'fluff' that GW is responsible with in races like the C'tan and Necrons. =?=Mastery of everything. No longer bound by either universes. Time travel becomes possible. Laughably I normally work on the principle that this level of ability is 'reality shaping', representing it through an entirely different magic system. (Cf. Mage the Ascension). As you say, Necrons are not at this level and are arguably just above the eldar but without the psyker component. Arguing against these ideas is what makes the finial result 'work', so keep cutting In that case you need to work on your sell. It doesn't work as describe, sounds somewhat 'munckin' (read: power gaming/cheesey). I have somewhat partially (yeah, and the rest) argued against myself in terms of 'powerfield' technology (eed-yut that I am) but the way that you're bringing it across doesn't quite work... Furthermore, associating the technology with your "nRobots" seems shallow, at least in terms of creation. (Although this is in part because your nRobots, in my scheme, smack of a GTL12/13 construct and warp drive is GTL10...) A rewrite would be useful... |
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Post by Philip on Aug 9, 2004 4:29:13 GMT -5
Rewrite=Scientific concept sophistication in 40K=- =Contemporary science=
Lots of disjointed theories,
- =Advanced science=
Humans figure out how the material universe works and have a unified theory. Sub-light engines created, AI becomes a reality.
Nano technology, though it promised a lot was ineffective in reality. Only the Necrons use it, and it is and 'altered form' an not 'Nano technology' as humans understand it. This altered form is a device of the C'tan and therefore far outside humans concepts.
- =Bubble Tech (?)=
Uses fields to create 'bubbles' were the laws of Physics are 'shifted'. Within the bubbles (depending on amplitude/ power etc.) the laws of Physics are slightly altered. The more power the bigger the effect. At low levels the bubbles can be used to form 'forcefields' and at higher levels negate whole parts of Physics such as gravity ('Avti-grav' technologies).
Matter within a bubble will start to act differently at higher levels, chemical reactions change as do the actual atoms themselves. For example Iron will form up to 8 bonds with other atoms, and can for structure for more complex than DNA. Within these bubbles new machines and chemicals can be made that are impossible in the 'normal' universe.
Using this technology humans and AI working together created an artificial life form, these life forms were christened 'nRobots'.
- =Geller field theory (?)=
This is the maximum humans level. They never make it past this point (as a society).
Bubble tech opened up a whole new universe were many things become possible. Scientists gained a deeper understanding of the universe and it structure.
Using bubble tech to build 'impossible' machines, machines that could then further distort reality and compound the 'shift effect'. In effect a 'new bubble' was produced inside the old bubble. These new bubbles were called Geller fields.
However the shifted alternative physics within the Geller fields were highly unstable and in trying to harness and control them it was an nRobot* that figured what was happening and why. Soon after scientists actually proved the existence of the warp.
*Geller was an nRobot! This is changed in the official history of the Imperium in 40K.
Though 'privative', a Geller field (and whatever was inside), could drop out of reality. This lead to the building of Space Craft that could travel in the warp, by 'sailing on the currents of the warp'.
NOTE: Though warp travel is possible, warp energy can't be channelled or utilised in any way using Geller field theory. The Geller field can only repel the warp, it is not 'warp compatible'.
This incomparability is due to the 'bubble tech' field surrounding the Geller field (remove the Geller field and you drop out of the warp, remove the bubble tech field and the Geller fierld shuts down, and you drop out of the warp).
However the bubbe tech field is only possible in the warp because of the Geller field which carries part of the material universe with it, just outside the bubble tech field reality leakes and reacts with the warp (leakage) creating a huge fire ball like a star within the warp. It is this mini sun that really pisses off daemons.
Jumps are limited by leakage. Once you loose enough 'reality' the bubble field fails.
- =Technomancy=
Maximum Eldar Tech level, never achieved by humans.
Full understanding of the whole universe. Mastering the warp universe/ Psyker powers. Can channel
warp energy and use Psyker powers. At low levels the Psyker powers appear 'as magic' at higher levels it can appear god like. However Psykers can not alter the 'actual fabric of the universe' no matter how powerful they are.
- =Reality Shaping (thanks Kage;))=
Mastery of everything. No longer bound by either universes. Fundamental components of the universe can be changed, Time travel becomes possible.
At higher levels whole universes can be fashioned. No race, not even the Slann or the God like C'tan have fully mastered this level.
The Slann and C'tan did not make the universes.
Slann/ C'tan Tech level (Necrons are not this level, but having been made by the C'tan have unusual technology in there structure, their nano-tech is 'unusual' and can't be duplicated by any other race, not even the Eldar).
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