|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 8, 2004 13:36:52 GMT -5
Hang on... Servoskulls are in themselves 'hidden technology'. Indeed, servitors in general are 'hidden tech' in one form, at least when you think about it. Hmmn... perhaps the only way would be to write a short story about it, but even then in trying to emphasise the hidden tech it would kind of defeat the purpose of it.
|
|
|
Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 9, 2004 7:08:12 GMT -5
I'm never convinced by people who think books are low tech. For readability, resolution and durability, acid-free paper books blow the doors off any electronic solution, and the readers (eyeballs) are always compatible with them, though they may require a translation program. Try to find an 8.5" disk reader, or a punch card reader - now picture IT variations across ten thousand years and a hundred thousand worlds. Frankly, paper (or high tech equivalent) is the only thing you can put records on that will ensure compatibility into the future. This is actually a strong justification for limiting access to and development of computer tech in 40k - there is an established user base whose size we can't even conceive of, most of whom are as ignorant of technology as a chimpanzee and deliberately maintained so by the AdMech. Frankly, significantly upgrading the computing technology of the Imperium is impossible given the installed base. But while you maintain the information in great written volumes (and we know the Lex Imperialis at least is maintained like this), trying to find anything is like being in Borges' Library - you'd need to set up a base camp in Aardvark if you have any hope of making it all the way to Byzantium, let alone the far off reaches of Chesterfield, Cholesterol or any letters of the alphabet further on. You'd need incredibly powerful IT to find anything in a ten thousand year archive of all incoming reports from any branch of the Imperium. Hidden (possibly) tech examples: - Inquisitorial rings (obvious)
- Imperial engines - is Promethium a synonym of "petroleum products" or something more? Even if Promethium is just gasoline (or something similar), an engine that runs on any oil based product from any world without filtration or further distillation and without needing an overhaul in short order is impressive)
- Lasgun batteries - I don't think people give these things enough credit. They're fantastical devices that may be the highest tech thing in all of 40k - their energy density is unreal, they can be recharged by throwing them in the fire or by exposure to sunlight, they're light and they're relatively cheap and easy to manufacture (given their ubiquity and the rationale for lasguns being the standard weapon)
- Chainswords - heck of a small motor and power source, especially if the chain links have their own powerfield protecting them
- All Imperial trans-atmospheric craft - as discussed elsewhere, the things must be higher tech than they look to not fall out of the sky, given their aerodynamic properties (or lack thereof) as designed
- "Fusion" reactors and engines - as discussed elsewhere, it is by no means obvious that Imperial ships could carry enough reaction mass to run their engines and systems for a useful amount of time
- life support systems - I can't offhand think of any instances where space marines ran out of air, though maybe that's why the crazy buggers like to take their helmets off
- Intertial dampers - It may not be mentioned, but they're dealing with inertia somehow, or else the idea of a boarding torpedo is ludicrous, as even if you're using space marines inside they'd be pulped by the accel needed to generate an intercept vector
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Aug 9, 2004 8:01:05 GMT -5
Good list E.B. As to other examples of hidden tech what about the rosarius worn by Vandire when he forst encountered the cult that would become the sisters of battle. He allowed one of his aids to shoot him in order to prove to the daugters of the emperor that he had the protection of the emperor, when in fact it was only the protection of a power field. Hidden technology can be used to dupe the less cosmopolitan societies of the Imperium.
Many of the technologies also come down to the question of control. The Imperium if nothing else is all about control, controling the dailly lives of its citizens, what they see, what they think. Think about the impact that the internet has had on our world. Imagine if it was available to your average citizen.
It would increase the difficulty of the Inquisitions mission by ten fold. Chaos cults or other clandestine groups would have a way t communicate, while keeping a good portion of their anonimity. They would also have easy access to the populace to entice new recruits.
Then there is also logistics to consider. In a society that is constantly at war, there are possibly already shortages for materials. Couple with trying to supply the demand for personal computers for every individual. It would be a logistical nightmare. Shortages or back orders could cause dissatisfaction or even riots as people fight over the limited supply.
If the average citizen feels that a personal computer is too large to fit in their home or too costly, they are less likely to consider the thought of owning one. The idea is to keep the populace happy and not let them realize how much better their life could be. that after all is mostly what advertising is about, telling the customer that their life would be so much better with your product or creating a demand where one does not exist.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 9, 2004 12:32:18 GMT -5
I think that at this point it is important to introduce the fact that it is not strictly necessary to incude super-tech properties to devices merely because they ascribe to the "Rule of Cool". I know it's a fine line to walk, but ascribing mystical/super-science properties to 'things' merely because GW cannot be phased to think about things is... problematic... And one more thing... Could be we please stop harping on about the darned scroll! It was a mere example. An incredibly obvious way of how 'high tech' systems can be hidden in a 'low tech' form. In being entirely truthful you succeed, but you miss the point entirely. I'm fully aware of the limitations of digital media, being an archaeologist where the destructive nature thereof is sufficient to concern everyone about the storage of information for future generations. The problem that you run into is one of 'information density' vs. durability. Quite simply the lower information density on paper (or equivalent) mediums is such that electronic media becomes favourable especially as you increase the amount of information that must be recorded. While transcription errors in multiple copies becomes problematic this is also a feature which is evident in physical transcripts, though obviously not to such an extent... One must also consider the nature of the information stored: Is it to be stored for ever, or merely a temporary archive? This can radically change ones approach to, well, everything. So what did that little ramble mean? Yes, I know about the properties of books when referring to long term conservation. You've got to be completely naive to think otherwise. (Indeed, the greatest irony is that the Domesday Book of the UK has survived nearly a millennium, yet the electronic archive is redundant at present because they cannot translate the bugger from the original laser disc.) The point that while millennia (or even ~15 years!) storage on digital media is problematic given current technology - and not over-hyping future technologies - the idea of storing information electronically is not defunct. So, again, while a scroll may be just a scroll, situation may dictate it be otherwise. One thing that we must be wary about is applying arguments inconsistently. This is the greatest problem of the 40k universe. Thus we have a representation (kinda) here. We've got a 'hundred thousand' worlds and 'ten thousand years' of IT variations... but hang on, the canonical universe has STC with only limited variations, etc. I'm being unfair to ErnestBorgnine here, and for that you have my apologies. It does, however, illustrate a general point that transcends this particular thread. And here is the flip side of the argument, unfortunately. Some might argue that this is 40k... I just say that it's bad writing. (And again apologies.) I'm reminded of law libraries in the modern world. Now this is an obvious point of ignorance on my behalf, but one would strongly imagine that despite the physical books that there are electronic copies as well. Just like the majority of modern journals. You subscribe to the physical and get the access to the electronic as well... Fair enough. A bit of circuitry involved, some horrendous cryptography (one has to question cryptography in the Imperium given the standard imagery, but still...) and whammo... "Rule of Cool", for me. The fact that you have engines that run on any type of fuel whatsoever kind of puts it into perspective. I ignore it. The energy density in these things is phenomenal. Just ignore the bits about throwing them in the fire or allowing them to recharge with integrated solar cells... that's just ridiculous. Personally I'd ignore them and move to 'vibro-swords' instead, even if they do have a rotating contact surface. But then again I'd also ignore hiveworlds... <sigh> "Rule of Cool" again. It would be nice to see if we could get some numbers to this. I have a personal preference of modelling it, as a gamer, in the abstractions of a game but there we go. I don't think that's too bad since many wargamers wish things to be put into their terms! "Rule of Cool" again. Incidentally, I have 8 hours of oxygen reserve within PA which can be extended by the individual Marine... Or all rosaria (? ). Good example. And given the retrotech imagery, it perpetuates the mystical position of an individual in 'possession' (knowledge) of that technology/artefact. That is, indeed, one of the more basic premises of the adeptus mechanicus. Exactly... One cannot help but think that if you have a technology, then you have a counter technology. It increases the sophistication of the Imperium somewhat, but not inappropriately so. It needs to be sophisticated. What is the surface area of the Imperium? At any point in time what fraction of that 'surface area' is impinged by enemies? The Imperium could be constantly at war with a single war in operation in completely distant parts of the Imperium at any given time... It's a great catch phrase, but let's not read too much into that one! And that is another point. And one in which I was trying to get to in the perpetuation of inefficient forms even though these are acknowledge by the adeptus mechanicus as being so.
|
|
|
Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 9, 2004 13:03:25 GMT -5
One thing that we must be wary about is applying arguments inconsistently. This is the greatest problem of the 40k universe. Thus we have a representation (kinda) here. We've got a 'hundred thousand' worlds and 'ten thousand years' of IT variations... but hang on, the canonical universe has STC with only limited variations, etc. I'm being unfair to ErnestBorgnine here, and for that you have my apologies. It does, however, illustrate a general point that transcends this particular thread. No no, a fair point. It actually reinforces what I was saying - if you didn't absolutely strictly adhere to an STC system for information storage there'd be effectively zero chance of exchanging electronic data with anyone else in the Imperium. It isn't a long leap from "don't install any new code because it might break our database" to "Thou shalt not commit techno-heresy against the machine spirit". Even so, what with warp storms etc., technological divergence is to be expected and the Imperium is nothing if not keen on manual labour, so keeping complete paper records of everything makes a perverse kind of sense. Digression: It's actually a bit more complicated. The online sources are not necessarily published by the same people who produce the printed sources - sort of. The actual law itself can't be copyrighted, so all the online services get the same raw judgment and put them in their own online system and in the appropriate printed reporter series. Because they can't get rights to use one another's reporters, you get slightly different judgments on each database, formatted as they appear in the paper versions of that publisher, with parallel citations that point you to the page numbers of the reporters published by other companies. In Canada, it means you get a citation like this: Smith v. Smith (2000), 100 B.C.L.R. (4th) 1 (C.A.) at 45, 45 RFL (5th) 76, [2004] B.C.J. 1'234 (Q.L.), 2004 CarswellBC 17681, 2004 BCCA 234. This is a fake case I just made up reported in the paper BCLR regional reporter, with the quotation under discussion at page 45 of that reporter, and the cite for the topical RFL reporter, the Lexis/Quicklaw service's BCJ database with the passage pinpoint cited at paragraph 234, the eCarswell service's BC database, and the BC Court of Appeal's own internal reference for the case. This is why we need a manual to explain how to cite things for legal purposes. Some law libraries have discontinued purchasing paper reporters because of cost and lack of space. This is resisted by many because at the end of a year long subscription to a paper reporter, you have a 12 volume set of whatever it was, while with an electronic service, you just have a bill and a subscription renewal form. This was very controversial at my law school. In addition to concerns that you're wasting money because you get nothing of permanent value from the online services, the paper law reporters are kept for two reasons: one, as a service to the public and the small practitioners who may not have access to the pay-as-you-go legal databases; second, many (older) lawyers and some judges dislike getting computer printouts of cases, and demand photocopies from the actual printed reporters. To be fair, the online copies sometimes/often lack the italicization and bolding of the original printed sources and this can make a difference - it's very annoying and embarassing to use a prinout where the court quotes a passage and notes that they've emphasized a particularly important part of the quote, but you don't know which one because your printout doesn't show it. That's poor oral advocacy and why we usually use the actual reporters except where we're pressed for time (the ubiquitous coffee-break dash to the courthouse law library to prop up your argument based on the morning's events).
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 11:59:49 GMT -5
=Scrolls= At the risk of getting my head bitten off, I think scrolls in 40K are more like bills, legal letters, court orders, licences, reports (summery), summons, and anything that needs to be 'physical', signed and sealed.
It could be that each scroll has a 'bar code equivalent set of symbols' that can be scanned and directs a person to were the full version of whatever the scroll relates to can be located on a computer database. It may be that the full version is only needed if something seems to be wrong?
=Controls and Red Tape= Thinking of seals and high tech stuff, maybe the sealing wax on scrolls in embedded with a encrypted marker to verify it authenticity?
Maybe the scroll is needed to access the contents of the main Imperial database as a form of control (you know how the Imperium loves red tape)?
Perhaps a person going about their work can only access the main Imperial database from 'official' terminals under armed (servitor) guard. The scroll's seal acts as the key to decrypt the data in the database, no key no access (and you get shot for attempted hacking!)
There would be forms to fill out to get the original scroll, so the administration would know exactly who had access to a particular set of data. Perhaps the issue with some form of 'paper licence' detailing who you are what you are doing and why. Then they assign a gun servitor that follows you to the official terminals designated for accessing the data.
Only those very high up would have full access to the Imperial Database.
Sorry Kage2020 to keep talking about scrolls but it got me thinking.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 11, 2004 13:18:55 GMT -5
And here is, perhaps, the most relevant point: who are you talking about when you mention 'Imperium' in this regard?
STC seems increasingly a convention of the Imperium, not necessarily anyone else... Again, the suggestion is that the Imperium is parasitic: it feeds of its component worlds, even though those worlds have a 'life of their own'.
I would say that it's a tad longer than you think. It's not a questio of 'fear', but indoctrination.
Only in a hierarchal universe which, since that's what I already advocate, is not too much of a problem. The thing that really causes the trouble is that people tend not to really perceive the volume of paper involved.
Which, if you'll note, was the other point of the discussion. Entrenched 'tradition'.
Now you're talking about physical verification? Do you really think that makes a difference in the Imperium? Who cares if it has some Inquisitor's signature on it. It looks like the signature, but it could have been electronically doctored, or a servitor programmed to write the signature out exactly or... well, practically anything.
As with everything it's a matter of what you're willing to do to achieve the ends that you desire. Despite the arguments of 'civil right' people, it is just as likely that electronically archived information is going to be subject to the same limitations as physically archived information...
(A part of me wonders whether electronic information is not more forgeable in the long term, but I hate being honest.)
Do you not think that it is a telling point that when you're talking about security people begin to invent technological means of determining said security... Yet this begins to defeat the entire point of "low tech"...
Kage. Anyway, in getting to the concepts it's fine... but over-focussing on a specific image is inappropriate. On the bright side information exchange is kind of at the heart of the problem anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 13:50:07 GMT -5
Now you're talking about physical verification? Do you really think that makes a difference in the Imperium? Who cares if it has some Inquisitor's signature on it. It looks like the signature, but it could have been electronically doctored, or a servitor programmed to write the signature out exactly or... well, practically anything. As with everything it's a matter of what you're willing to do to achieve the ends that you desire. Despite the arguments of 'civil right' people, it is just as likely that electronically archived information is going to be subject to the same limitations as physically archived information... (A part of me wonders whether electronic information is not more forgeable in the long term, but I hate being honest.) Who would care, as in the same way who would care if someone had a summons served on them? Forging banknotes in hard to do? Perhaps special inks for Governors etc. to stop the servitor menace? Forgery in an important point, but it is only a matter of time before it is exposed. If you were committing crimes using fake orders with a fake inquisitor's signature, what do you think is going to happen when the inquisitor finds out? Hmm ink, perhaps they have to sign in blood for DNA typing? Electronic data is much easier to forge if you have full access.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 12, 2004 2:14:29 GMT -5
#Forgery in an important point, but it is only a matter of time before it is exposed. If you were committing crimes using fake orders with a fake inquisitor's signature, what do you think is going to happen when the inquisitor finds out? The consequences of forgery and the nature of forgery are two separate things. With the absolute powers attributed to Inquisitors ("...My power, unlike my patience, is limitless...") it is something that is rife for the potential of forgery, a feature which is normally glazed over in the 'fluff'... Hmm ink, perhaps they have to sign in blood for DNA typing? I'm reminded of the statement that there is no such thing as a completely secure system... Electronic data is much easier to forge if you have full access. If you have full access. And let us not fall into the trap whereby 'electronic forgery' is merely number crunching and 'real forgery' is an art. That is way too loaded an argument.
|
|
|
Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 12, 2004 6:07:05 GMT -5
There wouldn't be "the" Inquisitor - I believe in dealing with subordinates (i.e. everyone not a member of the Inquisition) Inquisitor's names are almost always given as simply =I=, full stop. So, you're pretending to have orders from/be an Inquisitor, not any particular one.
Just as likely, you simply claim to be an Inquisitor. Inquisitors are very rare, after all, and could plausibly be travelling incognito. If someone flashes an inquisitorial signet at customs control and tells the guard "NO ONE from the plaentary government or security forces should be informed I am on planet, understand? You don't need to see my papers, these are not the servitors you're looking for and I should move along," unless you have a death wish (and a prolonged torture wish to boot), you wave him through the line without checking his identity papers. It wouldn't work on higher level Imperial agents (they'd want to see holo- or crypto verification), but it would probably work on low level functionaries and common rabble if you could pull off the look and the arrogance.
When (not if) caught, while the =I= would probably never publicly admit that inquisitorial authortity can be counterfeited, they'd be certain to put the word out in the criminal underground of just how gruesome an end the con artist came to for being so bold, and then go Keyser Soze on his ass - kill his wife, his kids, his parents, burn down their houses, kill the people they work for and with, burn down their houses, kill the people they owe money to, etc etc etc. and remind people of why everyone fears the Inquisition, to the extent that if someone were even believed to be contemplating such a tactic his own criminal friends would shoot him in pre-emptive self-defence.
[edit to add:] By the by, seals, even in the medieval times, were only one element of security. You'd use your signet to put your seal in the wax, so that it couldn't be simply broken off and replaced. Of course, opening and then resealing the letter could be done by divers means, which is why the second aspect of verification of documents was diplomatics - how official documents were formatted and written viz. the way such documents were commonly constructed in that area at that time or more specifically by that person, from ink to formatting to paper type - e.g. "Ha! A crude forgery - no title document in this country would use latin to describe the grant! And look there, the document is signed only once! Where is the countersignature by the witness! And the whole thing on parchment. Tsk. Couldn't even be bothered to forge it on vellum," or in the 40k era "They've spoofed the message header (badly), the hash of the message doesn't match the contents and there's supposed to be a verification code steganographically encoded in the Inquisition symbol at the top of the screen, and besides, a real Inquisitor would never misspell "exterminatus" refer to the Sororitas as "Sororotitties" or refer to a fellow Inquisitor by name in a transmission to non-Inquisition recipients."
Similarly, a large part of the security afforded to Inquisitors is that their messages and orders are coming by a route and format not available to others - astropathic transmission, or wholesale hijacking of the security and communications system of the world in question.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Aug 12, 2004 6:13:54 GMT -5
I like that
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 12, 2004 23:06:02 GMT -5
Well, yes. That is a part of it. But we already know that, e.g. the "3D" message sent by Draco to order the virus bombing of Stalinvast. Indeed, that and the use of specific 'key words' (hypnotherapy to integrate those words into the subconscious) was also used as a means of identification... or, rather, that was one potential brought up so that a 'secret organisation' (the then ordo malleus) could not only expose themselves but also validate their superior authority. We are, however, getting away from the somewhat difficult path in hand...
|
|