A matter of imagery: Hiding technology in 40k...?

Thats a rather pretty image that is but don't they have pict slates for that sort of thing or was it data slates can't remember but the sound right.

I understood you, I'm not sure of how many examples i could give though. Weapons can look crude and retro but have a sophisticated...thing...shooty property... damn whats the word, but thats just aesthetics isn't it, swords are a good example here as in eisenhorn and his special swords, he had two didn't he.
Cogitators are gothic brass, bronze, gargoyle encrusted computers are they not, they are always described in a way to give the impression of low tech or a decadent retro look this would go for imperial starships as well, they look pretty but they also look very low tech


Mars should be virus bombed...no...i prefer honest high tech stuff that looks high tech

<sigh> That's what I like to see... a stunning use of the 'ole imagination! The 'scroll' idea was more by means of example of the concept. While I'm fairly sure that scrolls come in paper, plastic variants, etc., is the concept of the obfuscation of technology something that could be extended to perpetuate the 'retrotech' imagery without actually bringing along the somewhat boorish implications?

No, that's not what I'm talking about but rather just a statement of how it works in the 40k universe! I'm guessing that I should just continue this in the Portent thread...

To reiterate (just in case) then a simplified version of the question is this: Is high technology hidden in the appearance of more 'primitive' technology as a by-product of an overall 'retrotech' approach of the Imperium and the adeptus mechanicus?

Further, is it a viable concept that the adeptus mechanicus in their worship of the machine does not merely conform to efficient designs but might include variants as a form of votive offering? There might be multiple means by which an artefact could function but it is the 'demand' (from the universe) that predicates the specific variant utilised...

Actually it's the same question from a different slant, if even that.


Would you care to expand upon your argument, assuming of course that it goes beyond the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" statement (i.e. that they don't know what they're doing and produce everything according to STC designs) which in a pragmatic and dynamic universe doesn't - definitely for me - work...


Remember that each world has it's own socio-history and that includes technological development... This is a part often missed out despite the fact that people use the "every world is unique" argument.

Ah, blanket hand-waving statements...


Yet it appears to be a part of the 'mythology' of the Imperium... the use of servitor skulls, much of the imagery around the Inquisition, etc.


Partially because of the 'catholic church' concept. I don't think that's a viable direct analogy for the adeptus ministorum let alone the adeptus mechanicus... You seem most obviously to be of the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" approach, which defines that the adeptus mechanicus blindly worships technology without understanding that technology. I've never seen this as entirely plausible, more so especially giving the origins of the adeptus mechanicus, but rather apply both the above "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" and add in components of the "Adeptus Me-can-icus" argument. That is to say that the adeptus mechanicus was not formed from a bunch of bimbling, drooling idiots, but rather a "technoautocracy"; a large but fine number of 'adepts' who understood technology and its application and used said understanding to maintain the supposedly 'failing' machinery of Mars. Thus the genesis of the adeptus mechanicus... an understanding 'elite' with an expanding base of those who do not necessarily understand the 'great secrets'. Put another way, you get a ritualised system of 'knowledge' limited by position within the hierarchy such that both concepts ("can't" and "can") are included... (As well as the omnipresent concept of human nature and maintenance of power.)

Makes a whole lot more sense to me, including the genesis of the adeptus mechanicus, rather than the concept that they are in essence a bunch of monkeys trying to reproduce Shakespeare (to pararallel Douglas Adams)... that in the mysterious breakdown of 'terraforming systems' that the scientists and engineers mysteriously disappeared leaving only those individuals with no knowledge of technology (regardless of any arguments regarding STC).

And for me it also makes the whole "Omnissiah" gig a bit more plausible...

So, trying to wade through the various implications of a 'catholic' adeptus mechanicus...


The act of acquisition of scientific and technological knowledge brings an adept of the adeptus mechanicus closer to the "Machine God" that, for me, is an assumed construct in the early history of the adeptus mechanicus by the 'elite' rather than a true and structured faith. The Emperor was viewed as the 'Omnissiah' because he "understood so much" and, therefore, was 'closer' to the Machine God. Perception of knowledge as the fulcrum around which 'indoctrinised faith' revolves allows for the concept that varied application of technology to achieve an end - the understanding of various means to achieve an end - is an exploration of knowledge and, therefore, of the Machine God.

Thus in this it becomes possible - through a tiny bit of hand-waving - that 'inefficient' designs are perpetuated through the Imperium, or at least on a local scale, due to the preferences of those outside the adeptus mechanicus... Possible, but not entirely likely admittedly. However, it does give rise to another plausible reason by which Forgeworlds might allow for a complete collage of technologies: fusion power plants on one hand, steam trains on the other. All are acts of 'worship' of the Machine God.

Only problem that some people might have is it does not strictly conform to the idea that all technological knowledge derives entirely from STC, a feature which is stated in the 'fluff' but numerously contradicted... and also much more plausible explainable in a more 'technologically diffuse' universe which itself is plausible given the fact that worlds in the Age of Strife are allowed their own "social histories".


See the above... Quickly, the answer would be that each 'variation' of a design (muscle power, steam location, internal combustion, fuel cells, radioisotope nuclear power units, fission and fusion, etc.) are each an act of 'worship' (as roughly defined above) and that the preferred technology might be adopted by a world(s) and thus perpetuate that given technology despite the presence of more efficient designs... Somewhat reminiscent of 'follies', at least in some ways.

Of course, this was only a parallel issue. What still remains a core issue is obfuscation: obfuscation of understanding their a hierarchal and ritualised structure utilised as a means of maintaining the status of a "technoautocracy" (parallel issue); the use of ritualised forms to obfuscate true practice (i.e. "The Ritual of Laying on the Hammer" ); and, of course, a means of hiding the true technological abilities of the adeptus mechanicus.


Okay, perhaps not the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" approach after all. Apologies for the sweeing assumption.


<grin> Seems like an underhanded attempt to swing this over to a discussion of the potential of 'robots' in the 40k universe...

But I would say that many advanced technologies are held as 'restricted' by the adeptus mechanicus and, indeed, the Imperium itself. (E.g. the Imperium would sensibly maintain the most advanced weapons, propulsion, sensors, etc., for their ships than those permitted to be produced elsewhere outside of adeptus mechanicus franchise.)


I personally would not place such a benign aspect on the adeptus mechanicus. They are, after all, mostly human... and human in many ways transcends machine. (This is just a hokey way of saying that I prefer a more selfish and self-serving adeptus mechanicus.)


Actually, that's more of a sweeping generalisation than anything... Scientists are fully capable of understanding the moral implications of their creations. It's whether they agree with the morality in question, I would imagine...


That they act to moderate advanced technologies is, for me, unquestioned though I would ascribe (again) more selfish reasons for it.


<grin> Take away the majority of the forcefields and give them lasweapons, fusion guns and plasma weapons? Leave them with cybernetics, but remove computers?


Interesting perspective but, alas, not for me... Or at least, not all of the adeptus mechanicus which, to follow your style, is reasoned out above.


But give them a 'data slate' and everything's okay? It's just that instead of a flexible screen we'll just utilise the same rough technology in a non-flexible screen?

(And, again, I remind you that the 'scroll' was just an example to illustrate the concept...)

Again we're back to the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" approach with STC as the building blocks of all technology... an interesting "Rule of Cool" image, but one that does not necessarily hold up to an integrated view of the universe. I'm not convinced by it and never have been since in many ways it requires the simultaneous adoption of "can't" views throughout the Age of Strife.

But regardless, the concept of 'hidden technology' doesn't seem to find favour here so I'll just keep it for my own little personal narratives. For me it's too "cool" an idea to drop based upon tenuous statements regarding STC...

As always, imagery was paramount at the time. Maybe something to leave to the eldar, though it doesn't seem to suit them... The idea of racks upon racks of data-scrolls, each acting as a form of RAM disc and integrated into a 'megacomputer' for storing the information on the Imperium...

Anyway, I'll go away now.