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Post by Kage2020 on May 10, 2004 10:13:59 GMT -5
Okay, a quickie. The Sargassos Phenomenon is an integral part of the subsector; a becalmed area that, because of the lack of warp currents, means that warp travel is nigh on impossible. ( Note: This is not the same as a 'stable area' of the warp.) It has been suggested elsewere that the Sargassos Phenomenon covers only a fraction of the subsector. This results in the fact that some systems can be reached by warp travel. The Sargassos Phenomenon was meant to compound the 'curse' of the subsector, but are the 'reachable' systems still under this curse (i.e. Inquisitorial seal or whatever) and, if so, how do you imagine this operating. This thread is just meant to clarify a point and I don't envisage it required that much detail. Kage |
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Post by Destecado on May 10, 2004 11:18:45 GMT -5
I would have to say that some of the Systems would still either be Perdita, or considered off limits. This would tie into the troubles caused by the Alpha Legion as well as the seeming "threat" posed by the Gulf. The Imperium would really have no idea what it is. the worlds that are interdicted or cut off from normal Imperial society represent a cordon around the Sargasso Gulf.
All kinds of odd things have been known to occur around and come out of the gulf. This deals with the discussion of the Heart of the Sector being analguous to a hydraulic jump in rapids and the Sargasso Gulf being the "hole" behind the Hydraulic Jump. Every once in a while things are ejected out of the hole in the rapids. Similarly, every once in a while, things are ejected out of the gulf.
This could be Space Hulks, ships thought lost, odd technology or even Chaos Raiders coming out of the gulf. The Imperium also fear that the distortion of normal warp currents at the center of the sector and the gulf, might be the developement of a new warp rift, like the Eye of Terror. I would imagine they have little info on the formation of that anomaly, so in their paranoid way of looking at things, it is plausible.
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Post by CELS on May 10, 2004 12:02:34 GMT -5
Parden my ignorance, but how lang has the Sargassos phenomenon existed? I assume that if it has been like this for more than twenty millennia, none of the worlds within the becalmed area will ever have been populated by humans.
I'm also wondering about the deal with the systems in the Sargassos subsector? Is it still completely uninhabited like we planned at one point? If not, then how do you explain that, considering the subsector's history?
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Post by Destecado on May 10, 2004 13:10:26 GMT -5
If I remember correctly from the discussions, it was at one time the capital sub-sector of the Anargo Sector. It was also at one time populated (Age of Strife Era Society). The Alpha Legion during the great cursade seriously mauled this civilization and subsiquent conflicts (horus heresy, age of apostasy, etc.) further took their toll on the worlds of the sector.
It may be that the size of the gulf fluctuates from time to time as well....this would be consistant with the "hole" in the hydraulic jump example which fluctuates with the quantity and speed of the water flow in the rapids.
Warp Travel is indeed the fastest means of travel known to the Imperium, but as can be attested to by the Eldar, there are other means of traveling that do not have to be through the warp. I'm not saying that there will be some great world spanning empire within the gulf, but I thought it would be a good home for one (or hopefully two) exodite worlds or maybe even some odd alien culture that does not rely on the warp for travel.
Many of the still populated systems lie at the edges of the sub-sectror, closer to the other imperial sub-sectors. There will also be ghost worlds, where no life exists. All that remains are the ruins and relics of the long dead society. Adeptus mechanicus servey teams or scavangers might be found on these worlds.
I of course will leave it up to the community if they feel this is a bad direction for the Sargassos Sub-Sector to take.
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Post by CELS on May 10, 2004 13:29:25 GMT -5
Well, I just liked the idea that this subsector was totally annihilated by the Imperium following the Vandire heresy and the Chaos cults. Obviously, any populated worlds in the Sargassos subsector in M41 couldn't have been with the worlds that were all exterminated, so what's their story? Were these a few brave worlds which resisted the corruption that swept over their subsector and capital? Are these post-Apostasy worlds?
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Post by Destecado on May 10, 2004 13:47:05 GMT -5
Some may have been resettled since the Age of Apostasy. Others, like Dakar, are important to the Imperium, but still have a stigma attached to their name. There may even be one or two that serve as garrison worlds. The troops that enforce the interdiction of the sector would need to be drawn from somewhere.
Would the imperium draw these troops from outside the Sub-Sector or if they did , would they really let them go home to talk about what they had seen there? They might have been the first waive of resettlement on the new garrison worlds.
I also think that there might be one or two worlds that were spared the raizing that followed the Age of Apostasy. These will of course be fleshed out later. they could be marginal societies or ones that were thought to pose no threat or were just not worth the time of destroying. I was thinking of perphaps including a rattling community on one of the newly settle garrison worlds or maybe as one of the societies not worht destroying...
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Post by Kage2020 on May 11, 2004 6:53:16 GMT -5
You could, of course, work with a separate image... Perhaps Dakar, due to the importance of it's mineral resources, is mined by the descendants of those indiviudals who did not take a stance in the conflict? Those that sided with Vandire were destroyed, while those that sided with loyalist forces were lauded! But those that sat on the fence? They are condemned by their inaction and now serve in a form of purgatory, hoping for salvation that they have more than likely forgotten... Perhaps a poignant image for Dakar as integrated into common perception of the 40k universe? You are but a spark... such a brief flash to be forgotten in the bonfire of humanity... Kage |
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Post by CELS on May 11, 2004 7:45:48 GMT -5
I suggest that those worlds in the Sargassos subsector who opposed the Chaos corruption which swept over most of the sub, most importantly its capital, were all destroyed. If not by the chaos forces, then by the Imperium who found these brave worlds overrun by chaos attackers, daemons and the like. Even if these worlds had stayed loyal to the throne, they too had been corrupted. We write a story about the Black Bell being tolled when these worlds were exterminated.
The worlds that sided with Chaos, were all completely annihilated, obviously. Really isn't much more to say about that.
That some world sat on the fence, thus avoiding both the wrath of the Chaos forces in the Sargassos sub and the avenging Imperial forces is quite interesting. These would mostly be the backwater worlds of the Sargassos at the time of the Vandire Heresy, of course. Too insignificant for the Chaos forces to bother forcing them into service at first. The High Lords could have ordered a hundred times a hundred years (which should be about ten millennia) of purgatory, and now the worlds are forced to pay truly horrific tithes to the Imperium, sending huge numbers of Guardsmen offworld, and sentencing violators to Penal Legions for even petty theft.
Eh?
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Post by Destecado on May 11, 2004 11:30:01 GMT -5
That does have interesting possibilities CELS.....If these worlds were back waters, perhaps their populaton was low enough to allow mass relocation and replacement with "loyal" citizens. Those relocated were formed into penal legions or sent to Dakar or other "purgatory" worlds throughout the sector.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 11, 2004 16:52:16 GMT -5
And, of course, the formation of the Sargassos Phenomenon could be related to an alteration in the flow characterstics of 'that' current through the Anargo sector and something to do with one of those 'stones' that we've been talking about. Kage |
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Post by Destecado on May 11, 2004 17:00:13 GMT -5
The way we have discussed them, I would say that they are not fixed in a given location, but can shift their distance from our reality slightly. These changes would lead to changes in the "tidal forces" between our reality and these fragments causing the "bulge" to lessen or decrease. This would change the flow of the warp currents, which would then effect the Sargasso Gulf.
This action has lead to it expanding and then contracting as the flow of the currents and the forces of the realities acting upon them change. It may be one thing that leads people to beleive that it might be a new eye of terror forming....I will come right out and say that it is not, but to the backward looking superstitious nature of much of the Imperium, it may appear so
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Post by Kage2020 on May 11, 2004 17:50:29 GMT -5
Yep, that's a good working explanation. I like the idea that people might look at it as a potential EoT/Maelstrom. That would definitely create some suspicions... but surely it would necessitate a tad more mobilisation of military forces to the Anargo sector? After all, people are dumb and the Imperium is run by people...  Kage |
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Post by Destecado on May 11, 2004 18:12:19 GMT -5
Yep, that's a good working explanation. I like the idea that people might look at it as a potential EoT/Maelstrom. That would definitely create some suspicions... but surely it would necessitate a tad more mobilisation of military forces to the Anargo sector? After all, people are dumb and the Imperium is run by people... There would be two schools of thought about this. Even if they do not know all of the details of the Eye of Terror, those "in the know" might have some idea how far the shock wave would have expanded when the Eye was formed....this could be part of the reason for the cordon around the Sargassos Sub-Sector. You would also not want to bring in too many military assets till after the new Eye is formed. What if you misjudged and the shock wave expanded to worlds where you had garrisoned troops? The worlds at the edge of the sub-sector that have been re-inhabited or where society was maintaned could possibly have been judged to be at the minimum safe distance. These worlds do act as garrisons for the purpose of enforcing the cordon on the sub-sector, but they do not even approach the level of cadia. Many of the troops in the sub-sector fall into penallegions which are considdered expendable. These would be the troops on such worlds as Dakar, which are maintained due to the necessity of the mineral mined there. We could probably add a couple of more garrison worlds in the surrounding sectors. these might seem out of place when you are looking at the sector as a whole, but if you take into account the possibility of a nacent eye of terror, they make sense. What do you think? |
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Post by Destecado on May 14, 2004 13:11:05 GMT -5
Going with the idea that there is a division on what to do about the gulf, this could be a reason why rogue trader exploration is handled on the QT. Lord Anargo (or whom ever the current head of the sector is) wants to expand back into the Sargassos Sub-Sector.
The Adeptus Mechanicus and other Imperial organizations are not as monolithic as people like to believe. There are schisms and heresies, as well as competing factions. Those that have enforced the cordon might be under pressure to prove why they are wasting imperial assets.
Although it has fluctuated in size, the gulf has existed for eons. It has yet to form an eye of terror in all that time. The original cordon was made after the age of apostasy due to the chaotic influences of the Alpha Marines and their allies. They used some of the data from the "potential eye of terror" faction to back up their argument for the cordon.
They have been able to enforce it for centuries, because with all the wars that have been fought there, no one really wanted to live in the Sub-Sector. it was like a magnet for ill luck. With the wars far behind it the Sector has been relatively quite. Population in most are have risen, neccesitating the need for new world to expand into.
The Sargassos Sub-Sector is the perfect opportunity. The problem is the cordon still exists, but each decade it is becoming less and less popular. The Adeptus Mechanicus still support it, because it gives them free reign to search for technology.
I was thinking that we might wan't to have the Sargasso Gulf in a period of ressession. This would mean the the micro-realities have moved further away from ours (slightly). This has revealed some systems that were previously inaccessable, because they lay within the gulf.
This could offer some interesting possibilities of first contact. I also has revealed a threat. The system where the Iron Warrior fortress was built is now outside of the gulf. The base, which was last exposed during the end of the Horus heresy now covers most of the world. it gives an opportunity for those that wish to fight chaos, but in a managable way, rather than a sector wide war. What are your thoughts?
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Post by Kage2020 on May 27, 2004 12:57:37 GMT -5
Apologies for taking so long to reply to this. Have been rather busy over the last few days and I must admit to mis-placing your PM where you asked me to check this out once again... My bad. ...this could be part of the reason for the cordon around the Sargassos Sub-Sector. This is where we need Minister to take a peep in to discuss the nature of such a cordon. It's going to be horrendously difficult to enforce without the combination of Fleet elements and some non-standard approaches to the 'fluff'. Or, rather, mere extensions of the 'fluff' in standard areas but which GW haven't mentioned and would therefore be problematic to some...  The worlds at the edge of the sub-sector that have been re-inhabited or where society was maintaned could possibly have been judged to be at the minimum safe distance. This begs the question - or perhaps more likely the reminder - as to how big you envision the Sargassos phenomenon to be? These worlds do act as garrisons for the purpose of enforcing the cordon on the sub-sector, but they do not even approach the level of cadia. One problem here is merely in concept... we've already got one horrendously militarised zone in the form of Castellan. I'm actually more keen that the Sargassos Phenomon acquires it's protection more from the fact that it's git-hard to navigate and that there is the 'myth' of 'corruption'. It's not going to stop the adventurous going there, but for the majority of traders... Many of the troops in the sub-sector fall into penallegions which are considdered expendable. If there is an official expansion of Imperial resources into the Sargassos subsector then, yes, this is something that I would definitely agree upon. As much as possible, anyway. These would be the troops on such worlds as Dakar, which are maintained due to the necessity of the mineral mined there. I'm going to have to take another look at that thread since I cannot remember seeing a specific reason for why it should be occupied other than the production of, say, rare earths... ...but if you take into account the possibility of a nacent eye of terror, they make sense. What do you think? I'm going to have to sit on the nascent EoT image. I just don't think that it suits. There is sufficient difference between the two that it would be fairly obvious for appropriate collegia to figure it out... Going with the idea that there is a division on what to do about the gulf, this could be a reason why rogue trader exploration is handled on the QT. Definitely. The exploration of the 'Heart of Anargo' is something that they've been trying to do for ages using the traditional 'rogue traders'... But there at present no Rogue Traders in Anargo. That's coming sometime over the next few centuries depending on how the 'story' of Anargo goes. Lord Anargo (or whom ever the current head of the sector is) wants to expand back into the Sargassos Sub-Sector. We need a definite mechanic for this since, ultimately, that was the original concept behind the 'Other subsector', i.e. it would be 'bootstrapped'. Are we talking commerical/economic, psychological, strategic or what? The Adeptus Mechanicus and other Imperial organizations are not as monolithic as people like to believe. <grin> That is not something that you have to convince me on... in fact, I tend to take it even further as you might have seen elsewhere on the board, but at least in the production of concepts on the Schools of the adeptus ministorum, the philosophies/factions (and thanks to CELS, paradigms) of the adeptus mechanicus, and so on... There are schisms and heresies, as well as competing factions. Those that have enforced the cordon might be under pressure to prove why they are wasting imperial assets. Perhaps instead of relating this to the ordinatio we could extend this to the concept of Imperial politics? Everyone is always so fired up on the " adeptus terra is everything!" that they tend to forget that the Imperium is more than the adeptus terra. Indeed, that is something that we are here to explore! The original cordon was made after the age of apostasy due to the chaotic influences of the Alpha Marines and their allies. I think that it is important that we give the 'curse' a reason. Perhaps the Phenomenon expanded at just the worst time for loyalist forces, allowing the Alpha Legion to monkey around with the already 'corrupt' Vandirian forces? Perhaps, on one world near the edge of the Phenomenon, there is a system which contains an entire Fleet squadron and significant Guard elements... just a millennia or so adrift of when they should have been around. What kind of society would that produce? All that power and all that angst... Population in most are have risen, neccesitating the need for new world to expand into. [/uote] Population pressure is one of those things that is never really looked at in the 40k universe so, yes, this is something that we should definitely keep in mind. The Sargassos Sub-Sector is the perfect opportunity. The problem is the cordon... I think keeping the cordon - the Inquisitorial seal - is definitely a good thing, especially if there are arguments against it. But the proto-EoT idea is too glitchy for me. I was thinking that we might wan't to have the Sargasso Gulf in a period of ressession. Fair enough... But given the Sargassos subsector is under Inquisitorial Seal, we must have a reason for the worlds outside of the Phenomenon but still within the subsector area of influence to have had their seal relaxed... I also has revealed a threat. The system where the Iron Warrior fortress was built is now outside of the gulf. Oh, definitely include these... Given the Storm of Iron[//i] it really wouldn't be difficult to outmanoeuvre or outthink these mental deficients!
I think that's a good way to approach it, but I think using the Iron Warriors or some significant Chaos Marine present is not the way to go...
Kage
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