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Post by Destecado on Jun 1, 2004 9:42:52 GMT -5
This begs the question - or perhaps more likely the reminder - as to how big you envision the Sargassos phenomenon to be? I see the Gulf as varying from 1/5 to 1/3 of the total area of the sector. It grows or shrinks with with changes to the location and proximity of the proto dimensions to our own. At the moment, it is contracting. One problem here is merely in concept... we've already got one horrendously militarised zone in the form of Castellan. I'm actually more keen that the Sargassos Phenomon acquires it's protection more from the fact that it's git-hard to navigate and that there is the 'myth' of 'corruption'. It's not going to stop the adventurous going there, but for the majority of traders... We can do away with the idea of cordoning it off for fear of it being another potential eye of terror. It was just a though, but probably would not have survived this long as a deterent. I am thinking about perhaps a portion of the previously destroyed Age of Strife Era Culture still existing on some of the worlds revealed by the contraction of the gulf. if not that perhaps an impending threat to a Exodite world. Maybe the gulf has never shrunk this far before and the threat exists of the system perhaps being revealed. I think that it is important that we give the 'curse' a reason. Perhaps the Phenomenon expanded at just the worst time for loyalist forces, allowing the Alpha Legion to monkey around with the already 'corrupt' Vandirian forces? Perhaps, on one world near the edge of the Phenomenon, there is a system which contains an entire Fleet squadron and significant Guard elements... just a millennia or so adrift of when they should have been around. What kind of society would that produce? All that power and all that angst... I think we should work this concept into the IW fortress world idea. this concept is not based on their being an Iron Warrior presence in the Sector at present. It is instead based on the idea that they had built this beautiful nigh inpregnable fortress and then were forced to abandon it. Rather than destroy it, they cursed the fortress. None who would take it as their own would ever hold it peacefully. Any who fought there would also end up defending it throughout all eternity. It is the ultimate spoil sport trap for any who would think themselves masters of the base. Perhaps the fleet moved in to destroy the base, but due to dialation arrived much later than expected as the Gulf was slowly creeping back over the system. It is for the most part a death world, but instead of being populated by fiscious animals or plants it is one great war zone, with a fortress that now extends over the entire surface of the planet. I think keeping the cordon - the Inquisitorial seal - is definitely a good thing, especially if there are arguments against it. But the proto-EoT idea is too glitchy for me. We lose the proto EoT idea. There are plenty of other thoughts why the cordon would still exist. Some of it may be due to chaos, but what about the threat of the Age of Strife Era culture. Perhaps war with this culture was more than the Imperium really bargained for. Maybe they had actually fought the Imperials to a stand still. Reinforcements to help the Alpha Legion were being called for from the next closest Legion, the Ultramarines on the Eastern Fringe. this may have been what caused the Alpha Legion to redouble its efforts to win. It may have cost the Alpha Legion dearly, but Alpharius would rather spend great numbers of his own resources than have Roboute Gulliman lord it over him. This would also be the reason that the Alpha Marines dealt so harshly with the culture when the finally conquored it. From captured records, they would perhaps have know that there were several systems that lay inside the gulf that were also inhabited by this culture. They lay beyond the Imperiums grasp, but they would every once in a while venture out of the gulf. Unlike the Imperium, they use a different mode of travel other than the warp. Some of the ships that have been put down as "Space Hulks" are actually ships from this cultures....their ships are just that big. This would also be a good explanation for having a Space Marine Chapter that specializes in space combat and bording actions. The Imperium does not want to admit that this culture still exists and the client worlds that betrayed them might still fear them. Over the centuries the reason for the fear has of course been lost, but the part of space just makes people shudder. Fair enough... But given the Sargassos subsector is under Inquisitorial Seal, we must have a reason for the worlds outside of the Phenomenon but still within the subsector area of influence to have had their seal relaxed... If the phenomenon is shrinking, then the possibility of of renewed conflict with this culture exists. They are also worlds that skirt on the edge of the space or which may have at one time been client worlds of the Age of Strife Era Race.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 2, 2004 11:14:45 GMT -5
I see the Gulf as varying from 1/5 to 1/3 of the total area of the sector. Erm... No. And you meant volume, I presume! Since the sector is 60 parsecs (ish) across, that means the Sargassos Phenomenon, would 12-20 parsecs in 'diameter'. That's a huge diameter, and I'm not sure that I'm entirely comfortable with it. Mainly because it's a bit...erm... significant. Dominant, in fact. Maybe in the past, as a historical quirk, but not necessarily now... ? ...if not that perhaps an impending threat to a Exodite world... Grumble, grumble... eldar... It is instead based on the idea that they had built this beautiful nigh inpregnable fortress and then were forced to abandon it. Well, since the last one they built was represented in the Storm of Iron and, given the technology present in the 40k universe, I would have been able to bypass the bugger in days. So much for the Space Marines vaunted tactical ability... Any who fought there would also end up defending it throughout all eternity. It is the ultimate spoil sport trap for any who would think themselves masters of the base. Interesting concept... I rather like it. It is for the most part a death world, but instead of being populated by fiscious animals or plants it is one great war zone, with a fortress that now extends over the entire surface of the planet. Not quite sure which world we're talking about now, but there we go... ...but what about the threat of the Age of Strife Era culture. Or we could go with the idea that the reason is completely pointless? An artefact of a symbolic decision at the time which has remained for a millennia? Kind of ties into how the majority of people tend to view the efficiency of the adeptus terra! Perhaps war with this culture was more than the Imperium really bargained for. As a point of historical interest... perhaps? I wonder if anyone else is going to drop in and add their point of view? Kage
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Post by Destecado on Jun 3, 2004 6:02:35 GMT -5
Erm... No. And you meant volume, I presume! I was referring to the volume. If this is too large, what size were you looking at? My thought is that one of the larger fragments in the Heart of the Sector may have been moving closer to our own around the time of the Age of Apostasy this caused the gulf to expand. At the time it may have seemed as if the gulf would continue to expand to fill the entire sub-sector, but eventually slowed and stopped. The fragment is now moving away from ours or other changes at the Heart of the Subsector have changed the warp flow and the gulf has begun to shrink. Since the sector is 60 parsecs (ish) across, that means the Sargassos Phenomenon, would 12-20 parsecs in 'diameter'. That's a huge diameter, and I'm not sure that I'm entirely comfortable with it. Mainly because it's a bit...erm... significant. Dominant, in fact. Of course it is dominant. The sub-sector takes its name from it for that fact. This of course is the size of the gulf in its current expanded size. It will eventually shrink as the ASP goes forward. I'm open to suggestions if you still fell that this is too sizable an anomaly. Grumble, grumble... eldar... There does not need to be an exodite world within the Gulf....if we go with the idea of perhaps remnants of the AoS Era Culture, it probably would not be there. or may have some relation or interaction with that culture. Not quite sure which world we're talking about now, but there we go... This was in reference to the world where the Iron Warrior fortress was built. Or we could go with the idea that the reason is completely pointless? An artefact of a symbolic decision at the time which has remained for a millennia? Kind of ties into how the majority of people tend to view the efficiency of the adeptus terra! I still think that having the Age of Strife Era Culture as a potential adversary might add for some interesting play in the sector. They are not very war like, so the ships that they had sent out of the gulf may have been ships to recolonize lost worlds or to re-establish contact. Of course the imperium would see them as a continuing threat. They hide behind the protective barrier of the Gulf. The problem is that the Gulf is shrinking and they may eventually be unprotected from the full onslaught of the Imperium. Maybe as an RPG twist, players could be a clandestine expedition from this culture to gather intelligence on the Imperium or find allies within their old client worlds.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 6, 2004 11:53:30 GMT -5
Of course it is dominant. The sub-sector takes its name from it for that fact. The size that you're suggesting becomes a dominant feature of the entire sector, however... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Jun 7, 2004 2:45:23 GMT -5
The size that you're suggesting becomes a dominant feature of the entire sector, however...[ I understand this. Would something perhaps 1/10 of the entire Sub-Sector at its greatest diameter be less obtrusive? Perhaps the sizes varies from 1/10 to as little as 1/35 of the Sub-Sector.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 7, 2004 2:54:06 GMT -5
One tenth puts it at about the size of a nebula, so that would be fine... It could go a tad bigger and obviously smaller... Kage
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Post by CELS on Jun 7, 2004 3:42:31 GMT -5
Destecado, I think it would be very wise of you to look at the list of mainworlds in the Sargassos subsector and figure out 1) Which worlds are still Imperial worlds (the once backwater worlds), 2) Which worlds were exterminated during the Age of Apostasy, and 3) Which mainworlds are caught within the gulf in 470.M41.
Of course, you don't have to, but it'll make it much easier for other members to get started with your subsector and get an impression of what it's like. It goes without saying that members can't really just pick any world they want at the moment, since you haven't chosen the location for the gulf. Also, bear in mind that the backwater worlds of the AoA (which should form the majority of Imperial worlds in the subsector) will obviously hug the exterminated worlds that were once the center of the sub.
You might also take into consideration the location of other nearby subsectors, so the backwater worlds are less likely to be closer to the nearest subsector than the exterminated worlds. I mean, it's not exactly a backwater world if it's the destination of all incoming ships from the Anargo sub, is it?
Looking forward to seeing an overview of the Sargassos sub, since I've long been wondering exactly how you saw it.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 7, 2004 4:06:51 GMT -5
Yep, definitely. Thought I suggested that elsewhere with reference to those worlds that were within the Sargassos Gulf and those that were not... But regardless, good idea. Not sure how you're going to get that visualised and represented so that other people can begin to work on the worlds, but that's another story for another time! Kage
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Post by Destecado on Jun 8, 2004 3:52:35 GMT -5
I've been wrestling with how to represent the placement of the worlds and even the location of the sub-sector. As I had mentioned to you a while back, the Sargassos Sub-Sector is going to need to border on the Heart of the Sector or at least be closer than was originally proposed. The reson for this is because the becalmed gulf is driven by the action of the "stones" in the Heart of the Sector.
Is this ok with you? From there it will be possible to see what sectors border on the edges of the Sargassos Sub-Sector and build a better map of the Sub-Sector.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 8, 2004 12:31:51 GMT -5
I'm still unsure on the validity of such a drastic step. The Sargassos Gulf does not need to be 'touching' upon the Heart of Anargo, but rather form a 'tidal pool' that is spatially close (which can be in a matter of 8-10 parsecs!) and formed from a forcefull offshoot current. I'll need greater justification for the move, more so since it is going to change the UWP of the worlds involved. (And, no, I'm not overtly fond on just transposing the worlds that you've got for the ones that they will be replacing to make things easier...) Sorry if this sounds annoying, but you have to jump through enough hoops to justify changing the star type of the system that you're developing. You're wanting to change the position of an entire syste and, other than preference, I see no real requirement... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Jun 11, 2004 4:23:41 GMT -5
I'm still unsure on the validity of such a drastic step. The Sargassos Gulf does not need to be 'touching' upon the Heart of Anargo, but rather form a 'tidal pool' that is spatially close (which can be in a matter of 8-10 parsecs!) and formed from a forcefull offshoot current. That's fine. If you feel that it does not need to be that close to the Heart of the Sector fine by mean. As long as it works logically that is all I care about. I'll try to get a list of the worlds that are inside and out side of the gulf. Don't expect it any time soon though....too many irons in the fire already.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 14, 2004 2:23:15 GMT -5
Looking at the current Anargo image of McHaggis, Sargassos is a bit back to explain the 'pool' idea... Hmmn... Kage
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Post by CELS on Jun 16, 2004 22:47:23 GMT -5
Of course, changing the star-type is different, since it actually reduces realism by changing the physical data of the sector. Merely repositioning the Sargassos subsector doesn't really change anything, physically. But I guess it would be best if it didn't have to be done, since it would save Kage a bit of work
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Vatsyayana on Jun 17, 2004 2:18:39 GMT -5
Looking at the current Anargo image of McHaggis, Sargassos is a bit back to explain the 'pool' idea... Hmmn... Kage Has anyone put together a full 2-D sector map so that we know where everything is? That would be helpful in putting everything together for a 3-D map.
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Post by CELS on Jun 17, 2004 4:06:00 GMT -5
Yes, you can find that in the artwork forum, I think. Or was it the website... Anyway, I'm afraid it's very hard to use the current map to see where things are, because the map is very small, and all the Imperial worlds are unnamed dots. I guess it would be fairly easy to do a simple 2D map, if a bit time-consuming...
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