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Post by Destecado on Apr 9, 2004 16:56:00 GMT -5
One of the new editions to the Cursed Sub-Sector Project is a region of space where the warp is beclamed. The working title for this beclamed space is the Sargasso Gulf. Some of the basics of this anomaly have been addressed here. Typically a spacecraft drops into the warp by activating its warp engines. As the ship leaves the material universe it enters a corresponding point in warpspace. The ship is then carried along by the tides and currents of the warp. In this region of space there are no strong warp currents. For the most part there are warp eddies, that are changable and sometimes simpley dry up leaving a ship stuck with no ability to travel through the warp. the best way to think of these warp eddies are like rivers from the sea into a continent. Like a river can change its flow the warp eddies can ripple and deviate. Travel around or throught this area of space is difficult and dangerous. What I hope to define through this thread is: 1. How people feel about including such a phenomenon in the Cursed Sector.2. Defining what might be causing it. Is it naturally occuring? Could it be some kind of artifact possibly created by an alien race or the Strife Era Micro empire that once dominated this section of space?3. What are its dimensions and how is it being studied by the imprium or whatched over by the imperium?4. What is inside of it?I've given this some thought. Perhaps there are forces from the strife era culture that tried to escape the scourge of the Imperium by escaping into the Gulf. There might also be an ork empire on one or several world that became stranded when the warp eddy they were traveling disappeared. Maybe ships find their way out of the gulf every once and awhile. There could also be forces or cults that support the Alpha Legion in their quest to overthrow either the Sector or the Imperium. 5. Does the Anomally have any strange effects on space?One thing that I was looking at was a possible time distortion caused by the gulf. There are several systems close to the gulf. One has a planetary system that during its yearly rotation passes into the gulf. Strange occuarances have been reported on this world. There was discussion of perhaps including an old Iron Warriors stronghold in the Cursed Sub-Sector. I was thinking of perhaps placing it on this world. The information below about the fortress comes from a discussion on Chaos Orks. See Chaos Aliens thread
Just having a band of orks turn to chaos is not only silly, but very unfluffy. If handled correctly though, it will help to reinforce the dire perils of chaos. What about having the world where the fortress is located changing hands several times. It was originally abandoned by the Iron Warriors after the defeat of Horus.
It could have then passed into the hands of the orks during a WAAAGGG or to human scavangers who moved into the system after the IW left. Though the IW are long gone, the taint of chaos still lingers. It could be that the IW left a curse on the place when they left.
Have you ever walked through a grave yard or other place and had a strong feeling of "wrongness" about the place...a place that makes you feel uncomfortable, but you can't exactly explain why? the IW fortress is such a place.
The fortress slowly twists the minds of those who inhabit it. It is as if the fortress itself posses them. Almost unconsious of what they are doing, they will repair and maintain the fortress and if the opportunity arises expand it.
Its formidable defences at one time covered only 2-3 miles. Over the centuries it has grown to encompass over 200 miles. A vast no mans land of twisting trenches and redouts interspersed with fortifications and tunnels stands out like a scar on the landscape.
This twisted nightmarish landscape is populated by roving bands of humans, orc clans and other stranger creatures. Several attempts have been made to destroy the fortress. Orbital bombardment has reduced it to rubble only to have it rebuilt within a generation large and more forboding than it wa originally.
The fortress seems to grow stronger with every drop of blood spilt withing its walls and trenches. Sorry, I know this does not seem to be totally about chaos orks, but I was trying to illustrate a way in which they could come about. It would also be interesting to have something like a "War World" once a force enters into the fray withing the fortress, they rarely if ever escape.
The fortress could be a manifestation of Khorne, who feeds off of the violence and blood spilled within the fortress as those trapped within its walls and fortifications continue to fight. This would provide a perfect place for small scale battles to be played or for use of the Kill Team and Creature Creation special rules from Chapter Approved. |
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Post by CELS on Apr 9, 2004 18:04:28 GMT -5
Damn you, Destecado! I'm trying to get some work done, and you keep writing these long, tasty posts that I simply must reply to!!!  Typically a spacecraft drops into the warp by activating its warp engines. As the ship leaves the material universe it enters a corresponding point in warpspace. The ship is then carried along by the tides and currents of the warp. Indeed, although there must obviously be more complicated things at work in warp travel, since ships can navigate freely. They don't just drop into the warp and flow wherever the currents take them. Still, they are very much dependant on currents... In this region of space there are no strong warp currents. For the most part there are warp eddies, that are changable and sometimes simpley dry up leaving a ship stuck with no ability to travel through the warp. Resulting in a lot of stranded ships..! We have our long-wanted space ship graveyard, gentlemen!  What I hope to define through this thread is: 1. How people feel about including such a phenomenon in the Cursed Sector.I'm personally very enthusiastic about this idea! I just hope Kage approves of the logic behind it, since he's more strict when it comes to explaining warp anomalies than the rest of us  2. Defining what might be causing it. Is it naturally occuring? Could it be some kind of artifact possibly created by an alien race or the Strife Era Micro empire that once dominated this section of space?I would suggest that it's neither. To create such an enormous calm within the warp would be beyond the capabilities of all races except maybe the Slann or C'tan... The mention of the latter sends shivers down everybody's backs these days, especially when combined with grand mysteries Could we perhaps tie this with the Aoideans? Or would that make them too powerful for your liking? 3. What are its dimensions and how is it being studied by the imprium or whatched over by the imperium?Well, I'd say that the cursed subsector is watched by the Imperium because of the strange ghostworlds, which could have all kinds of strangeness, both chaos-related and not, since the worlds were once caught in a war with chaos during the Age of Apostasy. What exactly is going on though, I don't know. For one thing, I suspect that the Imperium would patrol the CSS to keep people from wandering in, especially pirates and rogue traders who would love to get their hands on any valuable artifacts (since these might be tainted). 4. What is inside of it?I've given this some thought. Perhaps there are forces from the strife era culture that tried to escape the scourge of the Imperium by escaping into the Gulf. This would be the "evil enslavers"? That would be a possibility, but in that case, they shouldn't be anywhere near the previously Imperial worlds in the CSS. There might also be an ork empire on one or several world that became stranded when the warp eddy they were traveling disappeared. Maybe ships find their way out of the gulf every once and awhile. Yep, it's a good place for the GorkaMorka-like world. This is probably a total rip-off, but the world could even have some stranded human pirates and rogue traders There could also be forces or cults that support the Alpha Legion in their quest to overthrow either the Sector or the Imperium. Definitely, if the CSS contains Pre-Apostasy artifacts of value. Otherwise, I don't see what they'd be doing here. 5. Does the Anomally have any strange effects on space?One thing that I was looking at was a possible time distortion caused by the gulf. There are several systems close to the gulf. One has a planetary system that during its yearly rotation passes into the gulf. Strange occuarances have been reported on this world. Such as...? There was discussion of perhaps including an old Iron Warriors stronghold in the Cursed Sub-Sector. I was thinking of perhaps placing it on this world. The information below about the fortress comes from a discussion on Chaos Orks. See Chaos Aliens thread
Just having a band of orks turn to chaos is not only silly, but very unfluffy.As I think I replied in the thread you're referring to, Orks worshipping Chaos is not unfluffy at all. Just look at Codex: Daemonhunters and the old Khorne Stormboyz. It is in fact incredibly unfluffy if Chaos only corrupts humans, so we should strive to show how it corrupts other races. The orks in this particular fortress might be unknowingly worshipping Chaos though, since Chaos works in many ways. It could be almost like a ghost house, or like the hotel in The Shining, which makes you do all kinds of strange things.... But we should definitely have Chaos orks, and the CSS seems as good a place as any. Perhaps another world then. This twisted nightmarish landscape is populated by roving bands of humans, orc clans and other stranger creatures. Several attempts have been made to destroy the fortress. Orbital bombardment has reduced it to rubble only to have it rebuilt within a generation large and more forboding than it wa originally. The Imperium has been unsuccessful in destroying this fortress? Actually, I oppose this part of your idea. Exterminatus would turn the fortress and everything around it into a glass crater. I suggest that the fortress is undiscovered by the Imperium, though they are aware that there's something strange with that planet. The fortress could be a manifestation of Khorne, who feeds off of the violence and blood spilled within the fortress as those trapped within its walls and fortifications continue to fight. This would provide a perfect place for small scale battles to be played or for use of the Kill Team and Creature Creation special rules from Chapter Approved. Sounds like Khorne would profit from this, yeah, but it's also very sneaky for Khorne. Perhaps we should leave it as chaotic, though not thanks to one particular entity. Just chaos itself...?
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Post by Skabbhatt on Apr 10, 2004 4:03:43 GMT -5
I feel very excited about this idea, it's different and that's good.
I kinda liked it being natural, if that word can be used for the Warp. Especially I liked the Sargasso explaination with strong tides around the anomalie.
Another explaination could be a version of the Cadian Pylons, but it's to close to "C'tan did it!" for my liking. And we really can't have it moving.
Maybe half the CSS and it streching beyond the CSS, prehaps having it slowly moving into the CSS?
Listening-stations that listen around the anomalie, the Imperium watching it's movement, maybe send probes into the anomalie? Sending explorators teams to the world just freed from it cluches?
Space Hulks.
I can't really see any Empire, ork or human, inside the anomalie. They just can't communicate efficently without the Warp. Same thing with cult, yes probably the Alpha Legion is know as saviours in their myths, but I don't think there would be an active cult.
I really like that description of the Iron Warrior fortress.
Without purpose, without thought. Just as the fortress. Maybe the fortress is a power in it self?
I don't think so, the warp is still there so it should not be a pharia-region. But the lack of activity should mean it don't influesnce the region much.
Or course a Daemon or two can been sucked in...
Or the Enslavers...
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Post by Destecado on Apr 10, 2004 12:06:31 GMT -5
I kinda liked it being natural, if that word can be used for the Warp. Especially I liked the Sargasso explaination with strong tides around the anomalie. Another explaination could be a version of the Cadian Pylons, but it's to close to "C'tan did it!" for my liking. And we really can't have it moving. Maybe half the CSS and it streching beyond the CSS, prehaps having it slowly moving into the CSS? Listening-stations that listen around the anomalie, the Imperium watching it's movement, maybe send probes into the anomalie? Sending explorators teams to the world just freed from it cluches? Natural Phenomenon would be my preference, but Kage has final say. Now you've done it. you said the C (C'tan) Word. IMO there are too many things ascribed to mysterious artifacts. Leaving it up to nature once in a while is a good thing. Besides, the Imperial culture will invariably try to tie it to something of great significance. It can't be natural there has to be some kind of plot behind it. I agree that the CSS would probably be dotted with several research facilities and outposts. There might be a large presence of the Frost Wraiths in the CSS to keep watch and also hunt down any pirate, cults, xenos using the CSS for a base of operations. Though the CSS is thought to be cursed, we should still have maybe 2-3 Imperial worlds that are inhabited with a fair size population. These would be near the outskirts of the sub-sector near adjoining sub-sectors. Perhaps the CSS is also a DMZ (demilitarized zone). It could be a fire break to prevent further incursion by the orks. The Sargasso Gap make a defensible position. Watching the space lanes that run outside of it would not be too difficult. Maybe the 2-3 Imperial Worlds are garrison planets set to watch the CSS, but also in place to be moved to any spot needed within the Sector. I'm thinking that the strong currents around the anomaly allow for fast warp travel, they are dangerous, because of their proximity to the becalmed zone, but are very effective as a means to transport military assets around the Sector. Think of it as a rail head. The Germans had an amazing rail system that allowed the to move vast numbers of troops and material around the country quickly. This was one of the reasons that the allies destroyed the rail system with bombing. Any thoughts? I can't really see any Empire, ork or human, inside the anomalie. They just can't communicate efficently without the Warp. Same thing with cult, yes probably the Alpha Legion is know as saviours in their myths, but I don't think there would be an active cult. Maybe just spacehulks coming out, they could have orks or other xenos on board. Every once in a while one comes floating out of the Sargasso Gap, perhaps heading into an adjacent sub-sector. At the moment we can leave the Sargasso ill devined. I think defining it too much ruins the reason I wanted to include it in the first place. It is a mysterious place. No one knows for sure what might come out of it. I really like that description of the Iron Warrior fortress. Without purpose, without thought. Just as the fortress. Maybe the fortress is a power in it self? The Imperium has been unsuccessful in destroying this fortress? Actually, I oppose this part of your idea. Exterminatus would turn the fortress and everything around it into a glass crater. I suggest that the fortress is undiscovered by the Imperium, though they are aware that there's something strange with that planet. I've thought about this a little and come up with an alternative. Instead of the system lying just out side of the Anomaly, what if it lies just inside? The planet on which the fortress rest lies within the habitable zone of the system. The world that swings out of the gap is at the far edge of the system. Its extreme orbit is what carries it outside of the anomaly. The planet take about 4.5 years to rotate around its primary. It is for the most part an unremarkable airless froze wasteland. the Imperium built a research facility on it so that they could get a better look inside of the anomaly. When the planet came around on its next rotation, the base had been destroyed, leading many to beleive their might be life further in the system. Would this work better? Would the Imperium risk a couple of ships to determine what might be on the planet? What do you feel their response would be? I also have a working name for the planet or for the star system, Golgotha. It means "Place of the Skull". |
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Post by Destecado on Apr 12, 2004 13:48:38 GMT -5
Any thoughts what effect this might have on the Web Way? The web way is distinct from the warp, so it may remain unaffected by the anomaly. Imagine if there were several maiden worlds within the gulf. Perhaps the Craftworld rumored to be in the sector is in the gulf as well. It would be the perfect place. It would be almost impossible for the Imperials to send a big enough fleet into the gulf to attack a craft world. I'm not trying to say that the Eldar created the gulf. I think it should still be naturally occuring. they are just smart enough to capitalize on its existance. The way their ships operate also makes the anomaly less dangerous for them. Maybe they also derive some feeling of safety from being the gulf. Perhaps a belief that the becalming effects of the warp make it more difficult for Slaanesh to find them here or the pull on their souls is less strenous in the gulf. Could we perhaps tie this with the Aoideans? Or would that make them too powerful for your liking? It is a possibility, but let me read through the info on the Aoideans a little more thouroughly. We'll see how the gulf shapes up. |
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 12, 2004 16:15:06 GMT -5
The possibility occurs that the area is a nice stable environment to build great big intricate webway tunnels in...
Perhaps an ancient Eldar settlement inside the webway, within the Gulf?
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Post by CELS on Apr 13, 2004 2:32:22 GMT -5
I've thought about this a little and come up with an alternative. Instead of the system lying just out side of the Anomaly, what if it lies just inside? The planet on which the fortress rest lies within the habitable zone of the system. The world that swings out of the gap is at the far edge of the system. That's a possibility, yeah. Of course, since everything outside the fortress is an airless frozen wasteland, the landscape is no longer going to be twisted and populated with roving bands of humans, orks and stranger creatures. Well, maybe a few strange creatures Would this work better? Would the Imperium risk a couple of ships to determine what might be on the planet? What do you feel their response would be? I also have a working name for the planet or for the star system, Golgotha. It means "Place of the Skull". If they knew what was really going on, this fortress would be reduced to a glass crater. Fortunately for you, the Imperium has limited resources. If this fortress/ research station belonged to the Adeptus Mechanicus, the rest of the Imperium might not even know about it, leaving the Adeptus Mechanicus to deal with the problem. What would their reaction be? Well, they'd probably destroy it too, if they knew what was going on. But there are radicals among the the AM Magi just as there is among the Inquisitors. Some might be interested in actually capturing this installation and learning from it. As for the name Golgatha, it has already been used in 40k, I'm afraid. Yarrick fought the Orks there, with the help of the AM Titan legions and tech-guard. This war saw the creation of the Ordinatus Golgatha, a warmachine with a ridiculously large missile launcher It is a possibility, but let me read through the info on the Aoideans a little more thouroughly. We'll see how the gulf shapes up. Sure thing. I'd only intended them as Guardians of the Anargo Necron tomb-world at first, but figured I'd offer the possibility. |
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Post by Destecado on Apr 13, 2004 16:05:25 GMT -5
That's a possibility, yeah. Of course, since everything outside the fortress is an airless frozen wasteland, the landscape is no longer going to be twisted and populated with roving bands of humans, orks and stranger creatures. Well, maybe a few strange creatures Actually the world with the fortress would be the one inside of the system in the habitable zone. It has a thin yet breathable atmosphere. The lifeless frozen rock was the planet that circles outside of the gulf. That was where the Adeptus Mechanicus built their base. It was when it rotated into the gulf that something happened to the base. As for the name Golgatha, it has already been used in 40k, I'm afraid. Yarrick fought the Orks there, with the help of the AM Titan legions and tech-guard. This war saw the creation of the Ordinatus Golgatha, a warmachine with a ridiculously large missile launcher Oh well, I'll think of something else then. |
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Post by CELS on Apr 14, 2004 8:54:57 GMT -5
Actually the world with the fortress would be the one inside of the system in the habitable zone. It has a thin yet breathable atmosphere. The lifeless frozen rock was the planet that circles outside of the gulf. That was where the Adeptus Mechanicus built their base. It was when it rotated into the gulf that something happened to the base. Ah! In that case, it's a good idea ;D |
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 17:33:39 GMT -5
Any thoughts what effect this might have on the Web Way? The web way is distinct from the warp, so it may remain unaffected by the anomaly. The Webway is disturbed through severe warp activity but, ironically, actually grows quicker at these areas. The bugger of it is that it is harder for said connections to remain solid: it's as if the Webway is having a 'dream' and makes numerous and spurious connections, but those that it cannot truly integrate into it's nascent psyche. ... And, yes, that's my interpretation of the Webway. I'll willingly change it when I see a more developed or more interesting version, however, but in so doing you'll also have to come up with something more interesting to replace the Metarune, Ynnaed, etc... I think it should still be naturally occuring. As do I. I would however been keen that some form of integrated discussion of the phenomenon take place, most likely in the "Meta" board. I do not want to be saddled with another 'warp phenomenon' which lacks a firm base and creates a narrative 'hiccup'. Thankfully the last one has a kind of/iffy basis which I hope will be subsequently integrated... hence the "Heart of Anargo" thread, presently being, well, not really discussed in "Meta". Maybe they also derive some feeling of safety from being the gulf. There are no eldar in the Sargasso Gulf at present. Tir'asur is nominally, at present, located closer towards the "Heart of Anargo". Perhaps a belief that the becalming effects of the warp make it more difficult for Slaanesh to find them here or the pull on their souls is less strenous in the gulf. Slaanesh, realistically, cannot - or rather should not - be able to tell where the craftworlds are. To think that it would not have done something about them if it could is, well, dubious at the best of times... Kage |
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Post by Destecado on Apr 23, 2004 16:12:14 GMT -5
Kage, with everything that is currently going on in the Heart of the Sector thread, I was wondering about the state of the Sargasso Gulf. Is it still a viable idea for inclussion in the Cursed Sub-Sector or should it be shelved until the debate over the Heart of the Sector comes to a conclusion?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 24, 2004 17:41:13 GMT -5
I think that the Sargasso Gulf is a remarkably interesting idea but one that needs to be tied into the meta-concepts of the Warp and its movement in the Anargo Sector. I would prefer that we treated, as much as possible, the warp in the ASP as a fluid medium around which things flow, etc. Thus determining what would cause a "calm pool" must be determined, a part of the reason for the idea of the dominant flow through the sector (influenced by the black hole) and the 'stones' to create the 'tempest' at the heart (with at least a nominally different origin than the typical GW approach), etc. It would be useful if the Subsector (and therefore Primary) Project Leaders would begin to contribute to a potentially central (no pun intended) thread... Kage |
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Post by Destecado on Apr 26, 2004 12:30:57 GMT -5
A thought has occured to me as what might direct or cause the flow of tides in the Galaxy as a whole. the following is sort of an expansion on the idea of the pendulum tides.
Spacetime in the absence of gravity is thought to be flat. Gravity fields such as those created by stars, planets, black holes and other stellar bodies and phenomenon curve or bend space time. If we go on the assumption that the Warp is a higher dimension of reality, then these gravitational effects might have effects there as well.
But let us consider another option. What if the warp instead of being effected so much by stellar bodies and events is effected by the psychic eminations of sentient and semi-sentient beings. To go further, let us say that warp space like normal space time is flat. it is in areas of strong psychic disturbances or in areas of dense psychic activity that it twists and curves.
The "currents" of the warp would then be the flow of warp space towards the depression created by massed populations. One effect of Warp Storms might be the disruptions or aggitation of the strong psychic emanations. During the age of strife and the age of apostasy when the galaxy saw major upheavals and war, the frequency of war storms increased. as populations died out or found a new level of homeostasis, the warp storms began to subside.
The powerful warp currents that wind through the Sectors in this area might point to high level of population. Some great cataclysm perhaps took place in the Heart of the Subsector that has somehow marred the flow of the warp even till this day. Perhaps something akin to a psychic black hole? Would the death of a C'tan maybe be akin to a psychic supernova?
Whatever the cause, the disruption created has thrown your "rocks" into the fast moving stream. As with water, perhaps the warp tries to flow to the path of least resistance. With rapids on a river, this can cause a hydraulic jump.
Hydraulic jumps are common in rapids. There are at least a dozen equations to describe the basic nature of water flow but to understand hydraulic jumps, the important equation is Q = VA. The flow of water (Q) equals river speed (V) times the cross-sectional area (A) of the channel. As a dam releases more water the river moves faster (greater velocity) and the river level rises (greater area). In narrow stretches of the river the current is faster, in wider sections it is slower.
Depending on the velocity and depth of the stream, the flow is described as being subcritical, critical, or supercritical. A slow, placid river is subcritical. Swift, turbulent water is supercritical. Critical flow exists as a transition between these two. When water flows very swiftly it builds up a lot of energy. This internal energy can be thought of as a combination of the turbulence and velocity of the water. If the velocity increases very swiftly or the depth decreases quickly, as in rapids, the flow can become supercritical and very unstable. The internal energy of the water, a function of its velocity and depth, can become greater than the force of gravity which is holding it down. Suddenly the river is trying to cram too much water through too small a tube. Some of the internal energy must be released and, being constrained on three sides by the channel, it does so by rising upward and slowing back to its subcritical state. A hydraulic jump is formed. Most of these are seen as waves, the most severe are holes.
The wall of water formed can be steep and dramatic. The equation Q=VA must be satisfied, so the river behind the jump (or hole) has a greater depth and slower velocity, and reestablishes the balance of energies. Because the main ingredients for a hydraulic jump are swift water and quickly changing depths, rapids are perfect incubators. Three things common in a rapid can bring on a jump: 1) the river channel can suddenly shallow, 2) a large obstruction (such as a rock) can cause the water to shallow as it moves over it, and/or 3) the channel can quickly narrow. In a Canyon it’s usually some combination of these.
Taking this into account for currents moving through the warp, the Sargasso Gulf can perhaps be considered a "hole" where the disturbance of the "rocks" has forced the wave to occur. As with white water rafting, probably most ships will avoid being pulled into the hole, but their are thse uncommon cases that they will not make it over the hole and be sucked in.
Other than being bashed against rocks, this effect accounts for the greatest number of deaths in white water rafting. Eventually the bodies might be spit out by the effect, such as we were discussing ships being spit out by the gulf centuries later.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 26, 2004 17:27:20 GMT -5
I feel guilty for such a small reply, but that is a wonderful description of riverine hydrology and it's potential application to explaining warp movements... Indeed, I'm wondering at the concept of alluviation and its application as we, erm, type... The suggestion definitely ties into the concept of 'rapids' formed by 'stones' and 'depressions' within the flow surface of the 'river', but still does little to address the nature of those 'stones'... Kage |
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Post by Destecado on Apr 26, 2004 17:32:32 GMT -5
I know that cause usually preceeds effect, but in this case, desigining the effect I feel helps to narrow the selections or at least helps to better define the underlying cause of the observed effect.......hope that makes sense.
One thing that occured to me when rereading my post is the fact that unlike the water spacetime can be compressed. This would be like at the event horizon of a black hole. This might lead to time dialation in real space. Would warp space, perhaps being a higher dimension be more fluidic in nature and therefore unable to be compressed?
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