|
|
Post by Philip on Jul 21, 2004 15:12:03 GMT -5
Hives wouldn't work without the predication of self-sufficiency.
There is nothing wrong with self-sufficiency, people have been self-sufficient since the beginning of time.
A biosphere is no more complex then plumbing in a central heating system, whereas a warp engine is ludicrously complex, so complex I wouldn't even know where to begin.
I designed this Hive because I think 40K is changing, it's getting grittier and more realistic and I think this style of Hive suits. Looking at the current fluff some aspects just don't bear up under scrutiny, for example, I have a huge problem with Hives importing food: it just doesn't ring true. At present this is how Hive are in 40K, just a bit of fluff, I want to change that and turn them into something tangible.
It is easier to design something if you know its function, at present Hives are going to be 'mostly road' and seems no more crowded than Tokyo. In our modern world we only have 6 billion and already our infrastructure is having a hard time, it just will not scale up to Hive like proportions. The current system wouldn't even stretch to 20 billion.
Importing food would solve that, but importing food is a very costly business, there is no way the Hive world is going to be able to pay for it. It would require warp engined ships, huge anti-grav lifts/ thousands of drop ships, logistics would be a nightmare, traffic would grid lock and it all leaves the world unacceptably vulnerable to starvation if there's a little tiny problem with the warp and the food doesn't turn up, followed by riots if it did finally turn up before they all died. Its a system that will fail sooner rather than later, so it is unlikely that a 'Hive' would ever come about in the first place.
Or you can plumb in a biosphere system, which we could probably make today (ok, ok, maybe in 50 years).
Point is, Hives could work.
I want to make Hives truly frightening places, and the images awe inspiring. I've set out how trillions of people can live on a world without importing food (buy removing our dependency on sunlight), and I think it sounds interesting and plausible, and I am unaware of any other sci-fi setting has such system.
I'm more interested in 'making it work' rather fitting the fluff, as fluff can change.
|
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Jul 21, 2004 22:15:24 GMT -5
Hives wouldn't work without the predication of self-sufficiency. In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, as you well know, there are many worlds known as agri-worlds, which are dedicated to the support of hiveworlds. I'm not saying that agri-worlds supply all the food hiveworlds need, but they are absolutely vital for hiveworlds. And yes, this makes hiveworlds vulnerable, but looking at the Anargo sector, the agri-worlds are located deep in Imperial space, protected by fortress worlds that will take on most large-scale attacks in the sector. (The fortress worlds don't protect against the sneaky dark eldar, but these rarely go exterminating agri-worlds anyway) Erm.. yes... but they haven't really been put in situations similar to hiveworlds for 10- 20,000 years. And yes, self-sufficiency is preferable, but not always a possibility. Philip, while we are trying to shape some of the fluff to our own liking (examples can be found in Kage's work on the Eldar, or our work on the Adeptus Mechanicus), we will not be disregarding the presence of agri-worlds and dependant hiveworlds in the Imperium. 1) It's too big a leap, similar to saying that 50% of Space Marines are female. 2) The more we stray from the fluff, the greater the risk of losing fans. Personally, I usually don't like any unofficial background that contradicts official fluff. It just seems counter-productive, for one thing. 3) The imagery of agri-worlds and dependant hiveworlds is very cool, in my opinion. Ok, so it might not be extremely realistic, but very little in Warhammer 40,000 is. Just look at how war is done in 40k. As long as worlds pay their tithes, they are supported by the Imperium. Thus, industrial worlds and hiveworlds are not expected to be able to pay for their food. They are given the food that the agri-worlds (and many civilised worlds) produce as part of their tithes. In return, industrial worlds and hiveworlds have tithes of their own, which are mostly compromised of industrial wares and IG regiments. Have you seen Star Wars Episode I, Phantom Menace? Or the introduction to the videogame Fire Warrior? Hiveworlds do indeed require warp engined ships, thousands of drop ships, terrifying trafic. Ships are constantly entering orbit and unloading their cargo near orbital docks, which work day and night to feed the ever hungry hiveworld. This is the whole point with hive-world imagery. Look at Warhammer 40,000 fluff and tell me if it sounds like the Imperium has the technology to produce self-sufficient biospheres. And don't bother arguing that they should have that technology, because they should also have the technology to build gyro-stabilised battle tanks, and to reproduce Imperial Executioner pattern Leman Russes, but they don't. So do we ;D But without contradicting the fluff. If you're interested in making a parallel Warhammer 40,000 universe, where warfare is realistic compared to the level of technology, where Emperor class Titans make sense, where space ships are a sensible size and where hiveworlds are self-sufficient, I think you've come to the wrong place. We're not here to make major changes to the Warhammer 40,000 fluff. We're here to work against inconsistency, not contribute to it. Really, Philip, if you don't agree with what we're doing, perhaps there are other areas of the project that might be better for you to work on. I would have no problem with your hives if they were the remains of a lost technology from the GAoT. As you say, the equipment and machinery is unlikely to last 20,000 years, so the concept behind the hive would be like you have described it, but its status in the 41st millennium would be like GW describes it. Let's try to find a compromise that works with the setting of this project. We are aware that some, if not all, of our members have individual interpretations that do not match those of the project 100%. Just take the interpretation of Space Marine psyche, which might seem very straight-forward to many fans. Still, we must be able to set aside our personal preferences sometime, for the project to work. |
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Jul 21, 2004 23:16:15 GMT -5
Don't make me quote kage you wouldn't like it when i quote kage.  You say look at the fluff well where in the fluff does it say they don't have bio spheres. The "fluff" covers how many worlds in the imperium. Just because it dosn't appear in the fluff does not mean they don't have biospheres it just means the writers at GW havn't seen them as interresting enough to write about. Well thats just a crappy concept, on GW part i mean, its rediculous to assume that they wouldn't have that sort of thing, pah this is why i hate the mechanicus so much.  ;D I have to agre with CELS here some support from off world would be required(and would take this opportunity to remind you my world is an agri world ) I think that was what you planned on doing wasn't it, the ghost hive or somthing like that. Don't take it badly phil i got the same speach look at me now i'm practically taking over heehee no no CELS i didn't mean it, don't, aaarrggh!, tell my children i died...well I like your ideas on the flat pack hive that was inspired so i hope you stick around, and maybe comment on other posts as well, you obviously know what your talking about |
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jul 21, 2004 23:40:22 GMT -5
If you're interested in making a parallel Warhammer 40,000 universe, where warfare is realistic compared to the level of technology, where Emperor class Titans make sense, where space ships are a sensible size and where hiveworlds are self-sufficient, I think you've come to the wrong place. We're not here to make major changes to the Warhammer 40,000 fluff. We're here to work against inconsistency, not contribute to it. No, just designing the look of 40K in the future. Can you imagine a bioshphere with its vast network of pipes and all that detail? As for making 40K realistic, I don't think GW will go that far but almost anything can be explained away to make it a 'realistic choice' in given a scenario. For example: Close Combat is unlikely in modern war, but if computer controlled systems (robots) are removed from the equation and armour technology outstrips firearms technology then it is far more likely that troops will get close and engage in hand to hand combat (Dune had a good way of explaining it) Titans could be a great idea if Void shields only function at full effect if the vehicle using them is in contact with the ground. If Void shields resist all but the largest weapons (ie on another titan), stealth is not required. Cites with large weapons in emplacement can be taken out from a distance as they are so large. Titans would also be good as they would require flat ground and can walk over obstacles, but I imagine they would move very slowly (A Titan blasting its way through layers of Hive, leaving a trail like in a wheat field would look good, but a tank would have trouble) Let's try to find a compromise that works with the setting of this project. We are aware that some, if not all, of our members have individual interpretations that do not match those of the project 100%. Just take the interpretation of Space Marine psyche, which might seem very straight-forward to many fans. Still, we must be able to set aside our personal preferences sometime, for the project to work. As for integrating into Anargo, it would have to be changed, and as you pointed out the compromise is already on the table; I would have no problem with your hives if they were the remains of a lost technology from the GAoT. As you say, the equipment and machinery is unlikely to last 20,000 years, so the concept behind the hive would be like you have described it, but its status in the 41st millennium would be like GW describes it. For Anargo the Hive described is unique to 'Invictonburg',and the background would reflect this: it will be as 40K as 40K can be, with a population in the Billions and food imports. =Proof of Concept=Please view what I'm posting more as a 'proof of concept' rather than 'derailing the project'. This thread is to sort out if this type of Hive sounds plausible, not if it matches the fluff (as it is now). Kage2020 has expressed serious concern over the design, and I think he's right to do so, as if this type of design were ever to become 'official', it would make Anargo's set-up the exception rather than the norm, and give the Imperium in 40K a completely different infrastructure. As a side note, even with biospheres a planet would still be very busy, a population of trillions is a lot of hard work to maintain and police. =Why Anargo?=Proof of concept stuff doesn't really belong on Anargo, so why did I post it here? After reading many of the posts on Anargo and talking to zholud I figured I would get well reasoned, thought out arguments as everyone here is putting together a very complex project and thinks about this type of thing a lot. It seemed the right place to ask, as there are so many experts in one place. The input has been great, helping me to tighten up the design and also showing me the 'red flags' of this concept. =40K version=The '=Hive World: Invictonburg= ' thread is were the compromise, or rather a fully compliant 40K version of this world will go. =Concept=This thread in 'STCS Hive: Emperor Class' in for discussion of the concept. I would prefer it if you Kage2020 and dazo see this purely as a hypothetical, like design meeting. If you have specific areas that you think should be designed for, or how to address specific problems I'm all ears. This concept is 'how to make a Hive work with a population of a trillion+'. |
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jul 22, 2004 0:02:11 GMT -5
Don't make me quote kage you wouldn't like it when i quote kage. You say look at the fluff well where in the fluff does it say they don't have bio spheres. The "fluff" covers how many worlds in the imperium. Just because it dosn't appear in the fluff does not mean they don't have biospheres it just means the writers at GW havn't seen them as interresting enough to write about. True it hasn't been directly mention, but considering the current way of doing things its safe to say that the Imperium is biosphere deficient. Well thats just a crappy concept, on GW part i mean, its rediculous to assume that they wouldn't have that sort of thing, pah this is why i hate the mechanicus so much. ;D Any other areas you don't like? Please list. I have to agre with CELS here some support from off world would be required(and would take this opportunity to remind you my world is an agri world ) At present I've covered farming with generically engineered crops, and space saving the whole design. I imagine that Biospheres would keep the population alive, and in good health, however it would also be a very boring diet. =Live Stock=Animals take up a lot of room, so there is no real meat in the Hive. I'm sure the Hive would import non-essential foodstuff to the Hive. The rich would want something different I'm sure and willing to pay the 'extremely high cost' of transporting animals to the Hive. Perhaps eating animals is a status thing? Also I like the idea of vast ships filled with racks of animal carcasses, seems so 40K. Perhaps for Invictonburg you could supply animals? You could cover the entire agi world with cows and have a huge automated abattoir and packaging system. I like your ideas on the flat pack hive that was inspired so i hope you stick around, and maybe comment on other posts as well, you obviously know what your talking about. I take it you think the flat pack system would be a good way to go? Don't worry I like it here! I like people who speak their mind, I find it far more productive when designing. Stronger the views the better. |
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Jul 22, 2004 0:36:24 GMT -5
I do agree with that assesment, animals take up far to much room. In reference to the rich, yes they might enjoy meat of the bone as it were but it would be more expensive as it would take up more room on the transport.
I see hive world protien as coming more from a rendered paste, a gloopy porrige, this would be more eficient to transport firstly, and to distribute to the masses. And i see it as being more of an aquatic source of protien. Even if i coverd all of seleca with cows i doubt i would be able to supply enough of them for a hive world. Fish, algae, plankton though, these would supply enough raw material to possibly feed a large to middling proportion of a hive
Where would i start, the concept of 40k is really good but its not progressive enough to be beleivable or sustainable, eg marines might not be easy to make, they take time, but i feel that by now there should be at least ten thousand chapters not a thousand. Any one would think the imperium didn't want to survive. The whole 40k universe is to slaved to the wargame side of it. bah its just frustrating thats all.
I do, maybe you could expand on other areas of this ie other modules that could be plugged in, if you like, to the main colony hub
|
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jul 22, 2004 1:06:59 GMT -5
I do agree with that assesment, animals take up far to much room. In reference to the rich, yes they might enjoy meat of the bone as it were but it would be more expensive as it would take up more room on the transport. For the concept side I think this sound plausible, and expensive. I see hive world protien as coming more from a rendered paste, a gloopy porrige, this would be more eficient to transport firstly, and to distribute to the masses. And i see it as being more of an aquatic source of protien. Even if i coverd all of seleca with cows i doubt i would be able to supply enough of them for a hive world. Fish, algae, plankton though, these would supply enough raw material to possibly feed a large to middling proportion of a hive For Invictonburg this sounds good. =Cow Block anyone?=Hmm, maybe the cows are 'battery cows' to save space? Maybe there are so may, that at processing time the are loaded onto conveyor belts and dropped whole into grinders, the resulting 'ground beef with bone' is then pressure cooked (to make the bones soft) and pressed into blocks and frozen. Perhaps you just microwave, slice and serve, Yum! Where would i start, the concept of 40k is really good but its not progressive enough to be beleivable or sustainable, eg marines might not be easy to make, they take time, but i feel that by now there should be at least ten thousand chapters not a thousand. Any one would think the imperium didn't want to survive. The whole 40k universe is to slaved to the wargame side of it. bah its just frustrating thats all. With the Black Library things are moving away from 'purely war gaming'. The fluff as it is stands up for a war game, but writing and painting it in detail exposes any weakness. I think in the end the war game will benefit, as a better fluff means better missions (like: recover biosphere STCS) and better set design. I do, maybe you could expand on other areas of this ie other modules that could be plugged in, if you like, to the main colony hub That's the plan, as well as other buildings. I quite like the idea of 'Terraforming stacks' huge chimney like structures using catalysts to convert the atmosphere (bigger than modern day power plants) dominating the skyline. I remember reading about a chimney like structure used to remove salt from sea water via the sea breeze. Transport systems would be interesting too, like the loop rail system. |
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 22, 2004 1:08:43 GMT -5
Once again I've just sat back and gone "Hmmn..." after spending 10 minutes creating a gargantuan reply which would have covered several maximum-character posts. Then I realised that it was, for the most part, unnecessary. The problem as I see it comes down to a few reasonable succinct points: - I would first like to remind Phillip that I am not against the specifics of the concept and have at numerous points shown my appreciation of it.
- There are some points that we are constrained by the established imagery of the 40k universe. Hiveworlds are one of those. That hiveworlds do not function as they are represented, e.g. moreoften than not focussing purely upon the industrial imagery, is a given. Hiveworlds do not import all their food since, as suggested, this would be an impossible task. This has, however, not been questioned.
- Extending the concept of the 'hive' back to STC systems in the Golden/Dark Age of Technology (G/DAoT) is a concept that I find entirely dubious. Why? Again, there has been no reasonable argument for why in a universe where interstellar travel is not only possible but also 'fairly easy' why you would want populations to rise to the 'trillions' - even if such could be supported - on a given world. It makes little sense.
- Standardised or pre-fabricated approaches to hives is in contradiction to the 'fluff', which isn't too much of a problem since there would be a limited number of applicale 'solutions' to such population densities in adverse situations. But to apply the same rigid form to colonisation in general is not something that I'm comfortable with nor, with specific reference to 'biospheres', something that I find particularly inspiring.
- I am unconvinced by constructing a system of habitation around a military weapon for 'protection', again more as a result of the broad 'standardisation' assumed in the G/DAoT rather than as a concept for an individual world.
Once again, however, I like the concept. Bringing the focus back on localised food production is a good thing. While I used the example of Rome or London previously, I've also argued in the past (elsewhere) that worlds would most naturally be as "self-sufficient" as possible. However, imposing a specific form (biospheres) might not - well, for me it is not - the way forwards. Rather making the 'fluff' as applicable as possible without imposing the biosphere approach is far more valid. That way the 'fluff' becomes useful to zholud (for Meksum) but also other fans of the universe... It is, after all, a rather solid image. Finally, as it stands the Hiveworld does sound interesting enough for inclusion into the Anargo subsector so I'll more than likely shift this discussion there. However, I would hope that you would reduce the population down to the more useful hundreds of millions or, perhaps, American billions... |
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jul 22, 2004 2:44:48 GMT -5
[/li][li]There are some points that we are constrained by the established imagery of the 40k universe. Hiveworlds are one of those. That hiveworlds do not function as they are represented, e.g. moreoften than not focussing purely upon the industrial imagery, is a given. Hiveworlds do not import all their food since, as suggested, this would be an impossible task. This has, however, not been questioned.[/quote] The biosphere would not effect current 40K imagery* (see further down). [/li][li]Extending the concept of the 'hive' back to STC systems in the Golden/Dark Age of Technology (G/DAoT) is a concept that I find entirely dubious. Why? Again, there has been no reasonable argument for why in a universe where interstellar travel is not only possible but also 'fairly easy' why you would want populations to rise to the 'trillions' - even if such could be supported - on a given world. It makes little sense.[/quote] A reasonable argument for stacking everyone into a Hive? First up, I don't think its a case of wanting the population to go in the trillions, its case of any population continues to increase until the environment can no longer support further increases. The rules for hive development is different from modern day cities (were people already naturally stack together). If homes are effectively self sufficient, then there is no reason for people to go shopping regularly and all work is basically in home. It is very similar to a 'homestead' in the wild west, but even in the wild west people still worked together. =Efficiency of Design==Materials=Building wise it requires less resources, a simple case of area. Two tower blocks have a larger surface area compared to if they were combined (as the would share a wall, so that's one wall that doesn't need to be built). Four blocks combined would remove 4 external walls. This can be done because they do not require windows, so blocks can be really big and maze like. Also really huge blocks only require one air-lock, and one point of entry. =Management=A smaller surface area is easier to maintain in a hostile environment as leaks and breaches are easier to spot. Getting heavy equipment to the outside of a really huge Hive block or one massive 1000 km 2 one is easier than wheeling it down lots of little normal sized streets to get to normal sized (windowed) blocks. =Security=The exterior is a natural perimeter and easier to patrol. =no roads=No cars of any kind as they are not needed for shopping or a moving kids (Blocks have built in schools) or going to work. A rail (underground?) system between all the huge blocks is used to move people to external works sites, maintenance crews, troops. No roads means more space for buildings. [/li][li]Standardised or pre-fabricated approaches to hives is in contradiction to the 'fluff', which isn't too much of a problem since there would be a limited number of applicale 'solutions' to such population densities in adverse situations. But to apply the same rigid form to colonisation in general is not something that I'm comfortable with nor, with specific reference to 'biospheres', something that I find particularly inspiring.[/quote] The fluff is a bit confused, I wish to straighten it a little. As for Biospheres, how else could you support trillions? [/li][li]I am unconvinced by constructing a system of habitation around a military weapon for 'protection', again more as a result of the broad 'standardisation' assumed in the G/DAoT rather than as a concept for an individual world.[/quote] =Well armed=In our modern day world, were most people get on reasonably well, wars are not uncommon manly for land, government, race or religion (or all four). Even with everyone getting on reasonably and minimal differences the humans race has enough weapons to destroy the whole world and reduce it to a barren rock, not once but 10 times over. How are humans going to react to Orks? Every single world in the Imperium is going to be armed to the teeth (and some). The whole Imperium is at war or supporting war, there are no worlds untouched by the carnage. Once again, however, I like the concept. Bringing the focus back on localised food production is a good thing. While I used the example of Rome or London previously, I've also argued in the past (elsewhere) that worlds would most naturally be as "self-sufficient" as possible. However, imposing a specific form (biospheres) might not - well, for me it is not - the way forwards. Rather making the 'fluff' as applicable as possible without imposing the biosphere approach is far more valid. That way the 'fluff' becomes useful to zholud (for Meksum) but also other fans of the universe... It is, after all, a rather solid image. *Slapping a few biospheres in would hardly be noticeable and wouldn't invalidate current 40K artwork. Biospheres are 'invisible' to the game at large, and affect very little. As I pointed out before importing all of the hives food is nonsense, in fact adding biospheres would make the current traffic levels in 40K far more accurate. Finally, as it stands the Hiveworld does sound interesting enough for inclusion into the Anargo subsector so I'll more than likely shift this discussion there. However, I would hope that you would reduce the population down to the more useful hundreds of millions or, perhaps, American billions... I demonstrated how to do it earlier in the thread, the only bit that's open for debate is whether 2.5 hectares (5km 2) of prime incubator tray will support 40 people. I'm more than happy to revise that. Did you find an error in my calculations? Thanks Kage2020, nice work, keep rippin' |
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 22, 2004 3:01:42 GMT -5
The biosphere would not effect current 40K imagery* (see further down). It does with the broad application that you were initially implying. First up, I don't think its a case of wanting the population to go in the trillions... You have implied, and even stated previously, that the design is to allow significant population expansion... its case of any population continues to increase until the environment can no longer support further increases. Which as you've stated occurs at much less than 20 billion... And it is at this point I remember that I actually put 500 million elsewhere as the population of a hiveworld. Oops... Obviously ignore that as a typo. If homes are effectively self sufficient, then there is no reason for people to go shopping regularly and all work is basically in home. It is very similar to a 'homestead' in the wild west, but even in the wild west people still worked together. I still question the self-sufficiency of the design. As for Biospheres, how else could you support trillions? I'll state it again, then: I am uncomfortable with a hiveworld with a population beyond an American trillion or so (remember above caveat about typo of original population size). Also, I would suggest that focussing on the concept of the biosphere rather than the wider implications is... problematic. As I pointed out before importing all of the hives food is nonsense, in fact adding biospheres would make the current traffic levels in 40K far more accurate. You will note that I point out that I have never worked with the image that hiveworlds import all their food... Did you find an error in my calculations? No, I'm just trying to get you to think beyond the biosphere concept and apply it elsewhere. I really don't want the world to become a 'nice concept but not for the ASP'... And to be fair I'm more concerned with the setup premises than with the overall population figures... Furthermore one might question the image of a substantial portion of the hive population engaged in 'agriculture'... admittedly, they shouldn't be engaging in traditional agriculture. Also, if you could stop posting additional materials at the end of each post... I find myself not reading them merely because it almost seems there to try and 'prove a point'. Perhaps keep it all in one nice document for later posting? To prevent further confusion with posts across multiple threads dealing with the same thing... *click* |
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Jul 22, 2004 3:28:55 GMT -5
I wish you would stop moving this around its like bloody musical chairs Firstly the term bio dome could we not replace it with hydroponics which sounds better and dosn't come with so much steryotyped baggage as bio dome. Secondly this idea of massive population. Why veiw hives not as mearly mega deveoped industrial and economic worlds but also as breeder worlds. So that when populations become to large they are moved to newly founded worlds or sparcly populated worlds. this solution might please both of you |
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jul 22, 2004 3:35:28 GMT -5
It does with the broad application that you were initially implying. Its been revided since the initial post, I have been taking on board your input and developing the idea. You have implied, and even stated previously, that the design is to allow significant population expansion... People mate, what ya gonna do? It is designed to allow for massive expansion if need be. I think the original designs were to meet specific problems on earth and they were later taken to the stars. Which as you've stated occurs at much less than 20 billion... And it is at this point I remember that I actually put 500 million elsewhere as the population of a hiveworld. Oops... Obviously ignore that as a typo. If figured it was a typo, I think it was '90M', which I'm sure you didn't mean. I still question the self-sufficiency of the design. Which bits? Or rather: How inefficient should it be? Which parts of self-sufficient design do you think will fail? I'll state it again, then: I am uncomfortable with a hiveworld with a population beyond an American trillion or so (remember above caveat about typo of original population size). Also, I would suggest that focussing on the concept of the biosphere rather than the wider implications is... problematic. I'm using a million million (is that American?). Once the biosphere is sorted and how they are used and set up will determine how they fit in to the wider universe. I am keeping an eye on the way in which it develops so it will be the look and feel of 40K. You will note that I point out that I have never worked with the image that hiveworlds import all their food... I remember, but at 20billion+ convention systems and concepts will fail. No, I'm just trying to get you to think beyond the biosphere concept and apply it elsewhere. I really don't want the world to become a 'nice concept but not for the ASP'... And to be fair I'm more concerned with the setup premises than with the overall population figures... Furthermore one might question the image of a substantial portion of the hive population engaged in 'agriculture'... admittedly, they shouldn't be engaging in traditional agriculture. Most of human history has been dealing with agriculture, in the GAoT it would have been all automated and only require few to run it. Once robots and computer were striped out, then it becomes labour intensive. Also, if you could stop posting additional materials at the end of each post... I find myself not reading them merely because it almost seems there to try and 'prove a point'. Perhaps keep it all in one nice document for later posting? I'm designing, you raise a point I'll figure out how to deal with it in the context of the design. Once the whole lot is sorted, it'll be reposted it fully revised. Then I can start designing the actual look and systems and start bringing it to life. If it holds together and looks good, I'll send it to GW via BL. I really appreciate you CELs and dazo helping in the design of this project. |
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 22, 2004 12:55:51 GMT -5
Its been revided since the initial post, I have been taking on board your input and developing the idea. Fairy snuff, as they say... People mate, what ya gonna do? Avoid them, as a general rule. I'm considering becoming a sheep farmer in Australia! It is designed to allow for massive expansion if need be. Then you might need to address the text... the implication is that it is a desired product to have huge populations. I think the original designs were to meet specific problems on earth and they were later taken to the stars. I wouldn't make too many assumptions about the state of Terra, if I were you. Which bits? Or rather: How inefficient should it be? I'm just not entirely sure that, as described, the system is entirely viable without inputs. Your only input is power, which seems about as realistic as reactionless thrusters.... (but then again these are the advocatedform of drive system for the eldar in ASP, at present, so take that with a pinch of salt! ) Which parts of self-sufficient design do you think will fail? Agriculture and anthropogenic impact. It would require an incredibly controlled society which, admittedly, would - or should - be a part of the hive concept but one which is often hidden under the traditional 'ganger' imagery. I'm using a million million (is that American?)... No, that's English. I would strongly suggest that you revise your estimates. In terms of the ASP, I would personally not accept a population in the 1x10 9 range. (Assuming that at this late hour I got the correct number! ) I am keeping an eye on the way in which it develops so it will be the look and feel of 40K. Well, thus far the hive system doesn't have the feel of the 40k universe. I remember, but at 20billion+ convention systems and concepts will fail. Yes, but that's the point... Once robots and computer were striped out, then it becomes labour intensive. A reasonable enough point... kinda. You're still going to run into human constraints in terms of productivity. I'm designing, you raise a point I'll figure out how to deal with it in the context of the design. Darn, that means I'm going to have to read them... I only questioned this because your concept otherwise seems fragementary. If it holds together and looks good, I'll send it to GW via BL. Well, maybe you'll have more luck because of you're established "in". If you were a nobody I would question you getting anywhere with it... <sigh> |
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jul 23, 2004 4:40:24 GMT -5
I wish you would stop moving this around its like bloody musical chairs Firstly the term bio dome could we not replace it with hydroponics which sounds better and dosn't come with so much steryotyped baggage as bio dome. Secondly this idea of massive population. Why veiw hives not as mearly mega deveoped industrial and economic worlds but also as breeder worlds. So that when populations become to large they are moved to newly founded worlds or sparcly populated worlds. this solution might please both of you Biosphere has been changed to 'Hydroponics module', I kept using 'biosphere' for continuity. Yes it does act as a 'breeder world' for IG. In Invictonburg thread I posted more details. Invictonburg is going to be the STCS:CS applied to a 40K world. A working model of the system. Avoid them, as a general rule. I'm considering becoming a sheep farmer in Australia! Would you like a hydroponics module? You'd never have to see another person again! Then you might need to address the text... the implication is that it is a desired product to have huge populations. Its already been changed. I'm just not entirely sure that, as described, the system is entirely viable without inputs. Your only input is power, which seems about as realistic as reactionless thrusters.... (but then again these are the advocatedform of drive system for the eldar in ASP, at present, so take that with a pinch of salt! ) Ok, ok, fertilizer and carbon blocks to replace dead IG who do not return to Invictonburg (dead bodies are burnt, processed and introduced back into the hydroponics system. Though a small deficit, over millennia it makes an impact) and to replace food shipped out with IG. Agriculture and anthropogenic impact. It would require an incredibly controlled society which, admittedly, would - or should - be a part of the hive concept but one which is often hidden under the traditional 'ganger' imagery. Its designed with control in mind from the ground up. No, that's English. I would strongly suggest that you revise your estimates. In terms of the ASP, I would personally not accept a population in the 1x10 9 range. (Assuming that at this late hour I got the correct number! ) 1x10 12 range, or under a trillion (spoil sport!) Well, thus far the hive system doesn't have the feel of the 40k universe. Invictonburg will address this, as it is the 40K compliant version. Yes, but that's the point... Yes I suppose, but later rather than sooner. I would prefer to kill off a few trillion than a few billion story wise. The hive concept as laid out has huge design flaw, and that is the warp. During the GAot they didn't really know about this until it was to late. The clan block is a very closed system, and in a conventional manner can't get into too much trouble, but with the emergence of psykers it is a very real problem. Once a Daemon is out and about, it is possible to remain 'undetected' as nothing 'went into the block. Daemons just appear out of no where, which is 'impossible' and so wasn't taken into account. Later Cults are a problem for similar reasons. Genestealers if they can get in, which is difficult considering the security, could also remain 'undetected' but is far less likely to happen than Chaos Cults. A reasonable enough point... kinda. You're still going to run into human constraints in terms of productivity. Hydroponics Modules are much more efficient than traditional farming, and you don't need to plough fields as the plants are floating in trays. There should be enough people in a clan to maintain the system. Darn, that means I'm going to have to read them... I only questioned this because your concept otherwise seems fragementary. And there's me thinking you read, digested and contemplated all my scrawlings before posting! Well, maybe you'll have more luck because of you're established "in". If you were a nobody I would question you getting anywhere with it... <sigh> No more luck than the next guy. From the sigh do I take it you've sent stuff in? |
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Jul 23, 2004 5:10:34 GMT -5
What about water, do they need that shipped in or is all recycled waste and water moisture condensed out of the air
does the posibility exsist where they could simply remove a block whole sale from the surrounding ones, and just dump it somewhere nasty if it was causing trouble for example if they did have a stealer infestation
|
|
;D
