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Post by Philip on Jul 11, 2004 5:42:08 GMT -5
Hmmn, I can see the logic of that. As the individual approach of a single world, yes. But I do not necessarily see it applying universally. Hostile worlds are not automatically the location of hiveworlds... surely? The hive would supply large, well equipped armies and act as the power base for the area. I'm not saying that during the Golden age of technology that mankind would automatically use them, but they would be a formidable presence in any given area of space. Is there any reason that you see this as necessarily more efficient than more traditional models for hostile-world colonisation? Costs vs ControlInitially it would very expensive and costly to build such a hive, but as the hive grows it is much easier to maintain control over the population housed within. The efficiency will come in when the hive is up and running. LogisticsIt also addresses the problem of logistics. I see a world being covered with thousands (or more) of hives with a global population in the trillions (or more). A logistics system relying on off world imports would not be able to supply the food and resources quickly enough to keep the hives running. By being self contained units they are not restricted in number as a more naturally occurring hive worlds. Fuel and controla) This design means the only import required would be fuel for the core reactor, everything else is recyclable. Even if you had thousands of hives. The core is basically a mini star (hydrogen compressed to fusion using powerfields?) and would last for ever (well, 100K years?). All of the hives of this type in existence in 40K would be running on its original fuel supply from the Golden age of technology. Perhaps after the fall of the golden age the hive administration just put the hive on locked down, and being self sufficient have gone about there business until (if) rediscovered by the Imperium. Like a sleeping giant laying dormant. b) The fuel system was made to require unusual and expensive parts thus relied on imports. If the fuel ran out quickly as a means of control, these hives would be long dead 'ghost hives' but they could be reactivated. Integrating into AnargoI was reading the other threads and I would like to add more detail to this hive world purely for the fun of it, but Anargo is specifically for 40K and this isn't 100% 40K. However if people want it, I would be more than happy to add it? How about 'Invictonburg' based on a world similar to Venus, its dense cloud cover hiding the hives from view, going with the sleeping giant theory? edit: tidy upCOMBINED 13-06-04ConstructionIt seems implicit that the structure is designed to build hiveworlds rather than them being a 'natural' process (insomuch as it can be thought of in that way)? Would this be correct? If yes, why would people create hives? Construction of the power plant need not be restricted to Mars, of course. Other forgeworlds should be able to do this and, indeed, if you believe in technological diffusion it should be possible to permit such devices on civilised worlds... I don't see this structure a being solely designed to build hive worlds, more a design that allows expansion into a hive if need be. The design is very much from the Golden Age of Technology, and would have been at the very heart of Humanity's drive to conquer space during that period. As most designs are best viewed in context of what they are designed for, The following is a description of how this design works as part of the greater whole. ==Colonisation in the Golden Age of Technology===Definitions=There are many was to describe Hive worlds, is it a hive world if it has one very large city (hive) or does it come about from the whole world being covered in one massive city, the world itself being a hive. When referring to a 'Hive' I am talking about this particular Hive, a massive all in one building the size of several hundred large cities laid on top of each other. In a similar fashion as a Bee Hive. =What this is not=This does not cover naturally occurring cities that grow extremely large and are so big they are referred to as Hives. However these naturally occurring Hive may came about, whether single outposts that just grew, 'backward worlds cut off after the fall of mankind, regained and developed technology' and then grew, a trading city that grew etc. In fact every Hive described in 40K at present is not covered by this. =What this is=This Hive is hails from the Golden Age of Technology (or the Dark Age, depending on your point of view). As such it is extremely ancient in the current 40K universe and would be the archetype of what a hive is. Wither they still exist or the technology exist to make new one is in doubt. It is my way of explaining how Humanity conquered the Stars during their most glorious period in history: The Golden Age of technology. =Colonisation=During the Golden Age of Technology Humanity expanded into the heavens and conquered a huge empire via the use of warp technology. As they colonised so many world and had developed the Standard Template Construction System (STCS) it is fair to assume they had a proven and efficient way of going about colonising planets. As the STCS is used, I imagine that the process to be modular with expandability built into the design, as in such a difficult endeavour flexibility to deal with changing conditions within the Empire would be an advantage. =Initial Set-up=Once a planet has been identified and ear marked for colonisation, the first step is to secure it with a Naval blockade to control that sector of space. Once secure, a military base is set up on the surface of the planet. From here engineers with protection from the military can do a thourough servay to select sites. First choice sites are located along the equator where centrfugual forces allow for the largest building if need be. Once a site has been identified then the serious work of building a Colonisation Complex can begin. =Initialization of the Colonisation Complex=The first part of the Complex built is the primary weapons array. In atmosphered worlds this consists of three Void shielded Strike Cannon arranged in a triangle, each many miles apart. The distance is calculated to allow the largest hive possible for that world, according to crust density, gravity, pressure etc. These Strike Cannon are massive weapons, and can easily repel any orbiting starship. =The Core=Once the Strike Cannon array is complete, the Core is installed into the Complex. The core will not only power the Strike Cannon but will also supply all future power requirement. As such it is massively over powered: akin to a mini-star compressed with power field technology. Once started, the expanding super heated hydrogen pushes on the power fields, the pressure is enough to allow fusion. All light and heat is directly converted to electricity via the power fields, at near 100% efficiency. =Proto-Hive=With the Core installed and the surrounding support systems in place, the first layer of Bio-Spheres are built around the Core. Just as a germ crystal is used as a base for growing gems stones, the Core acts as a marker for positioning the first layer Bio-Spheres. Successive layers can be built over the first, taking a positioning cue from the previous layer. Layers are added as needed. Once the structure can house all the builders, engineers and military personal required for the maintenance of the Complex and protection of the associated sector of space all operations are taken inside the hive. =Logistics and Layers=If the area of space is being colonised rapidly, this new Proto-Hive will form a link in the logistics chain for all the new Colonisation Complexes being set up in deeper space. As more Complexes are added to the chain it is the Proto-Hive that will manufacture the equipment and prefab-structures distributed to these complexes. With the increase in jobs, new layers are added to the Proto-Hive. In a busy area of space the builders just keep building, adding layer upon layer. As the complex down the chain become Hives in their own right and start to supply complexes of their own, so the original Hive may grow so large as to finally reach the boarders of the Primary Weapons Array Triangle, and the finishing layer goes on. =A Hive is Finished=Usually the Hive is deep inside what is now Human Space once it is the head of a huge logistics chain. It is now easier to transport raw material directly to Hives way down the chain and bypass this now ancient Hive. It now becomes a centre of government, of the church and advanced engineering. It grows rich from the taxes imposed of those passing through its space, it is the one that builds the arcane Core that will be the heart of other Hives. It would have taken thousands of years to complete, but now forms a lynch pin in the operations of the Human Empire. =Multiple Hives=As more and more of the universe was conquered for the Human's empire, some planets would have been in areas with exception high traffic. These planets would finish their hives quickly as vast amounts of resources and money will flow through them to the outer colonies. On these planets many Hives would have been built simultaneously to meet the exceptional demand. These high traffic worlds are are the Hive worlds of legend, containing to many people to count, trillions upon trillions all housed in gargantuan structures.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 13, 2004 9:30:58 GMT -5
The hive would supply large, well equipped armies and act as the power base for the area. I'm not saying that during the Golden age of technology that mankind would automatically use them, but they would be a formidable presence in any given area of space. That's true. A hiveworld in many ways acts like ancient Rome, or even post-medieval London. It's a sink or pit into which everything else tends to slip. What I'm more concerned about is the premise that hiveworlds are a desired consequence of colonisation rather than the result of specific 'choices' - including social, engineering, environmental, etc. - that produce disproportionate population densities, etc. And, as before, handling comments based upon your titles... Costs vs ControlAlthough we also have the problem that why bother to build a costly hive when you can merely colonise a F, G or K-class star with a mainworld that is more conducive to life? If you're dealing with substantially non-Terra conditions - and there are plenty of those in the ASP although, to be fair, the Guide favours Terra-compatible worlds anyway - then why are you wanting significant population aggregation? Surely the individual reason for setting up the colony, e.g. mining, would predicate the form of any related structures? LogisticsThe only problem that we're working with here is that while what you say is true - traditional hives tend to operate in horrendously 'polluted' environments - you're still going to suffer from exactly the same problems as traditional hiveworlds, at least in some regards. Even though 'food' might be grown within indiviudal biodomes, you're still going to suffer from the requirement of importing minerals (i.e. fertilisers) as well as the law of diminished returns... Fuel and ControlThe endurance of fusion/plasma plants is really dependent on what game system you look at for inspiration on these matters, or the size of the device relative to the output... as well as a huge gamut of other factors. For example, 2300AD RPG system (seen more hard sci-fi than most) predicates 200 years for a fusion power plant before 'refit' and refuel. Other systems have greater or lesser periods... With 40k you run into the problem that this information is even more nebulous than anywhere else... Furthermore, you were talking about the production of these units via STC in the current Imperium - I could have misread that, however - in which case they wouldn't, of course, be using fuel from the Golden Age. Even then I would personally avoid fuel lasting for that long anyway... With regards to self-sufficiency, again I would suggest this is not possible. It would be like saying London or Rome were self-sufficient, for me... On the fuel system and 'unusual and expensive' parts, does that not defeat the purpose of the STC in the first place? Integrating into AnargoAgain, as an individual world it does have fascinating potential, although I would question the ability of the world to be as self-sufficient as you seem to be suggesting... But for me adding it to Anargo is a good thing... if zholud is willing to accept it. The one problem that I see is that it suggests a standardised approach to colonisation, which is not something that I'm overtly up for... more so in the Golden Age than anything else where more individualised approaches might have been advocated. The process seems more apt for the Imperium, i.e. brute force over specific reaction to the environments on any given world. =Colonisation=While modularity does have its place, I'm unsure that such a standard approach to colonisation is entirely plausible in the way that it is currently being represented. =Initial Set-up=Does this not imply a primarily military based colonisation procedure, which is itself doubtful? =Initialization of the Colonisation Complex=This actually seems more viable for the setup of a military base than a civilian colony... =Proto-Hive=This actually reminds me of the Aquarius concept of the First Millennial Foundation... However, while there is a determined reason for population aggregation with Aquarius (i.e. it's an aquatic city!) I'm unsure of the specific logic of creating an technologically-advanced and reliant 'colony' as a pre-stage to broader colonisation of the world...
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Post by Dazo on Jul 13, 2004 11:26:16 GMT -5
Well i don't know about that, maybe if it was a paradise they might want to preserve it, but as philip pointed out/will point out very few worlds would be like that. The golden age of the british empire was about grabbing as much territory as was humanly possible as well startling scientific and technological break throughs so why not the same for the golden age of man, we are after all doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past
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Post by Philip on Jul 13, 2004 12:07:19 GMT -5
What I'm more concerned about is the premise that hiveworlds are a desired consequence of colonisation rather than the result of specific 'choices' - including social, engineering, environmental, etc. - that produce disproportionate population densities, etc. Yes desired. Reading it all together, the hive is desired only so far as it means things are going well for the continued expansion of Humanity's Empire. Costs vs ControlAlthough we also have the problem that why bother to build a costly hive when you can merely colonise a F, G or K-class star with a mainworld that is more conducive to life? If you're dealing with substantially non-Terra conditions - and there are plenty of those in the ASP although, to be fair, the Guide favours Terra-compatible worlds anyway - then why are you wanting significant population aggregation? Surely the individual reason for setting up the colony, e.g. mining, would predicate the form of any related structures? Depends on which model of the universe you are going for, and how many planets are going to be Earth like, or very similar to one of Earth zones (like starwars). I'm choosing to look 40K as a 'hostile universe' being forcefully bent to Humanity's will, not a garden of Eden waiting to be plundered. Unlike other systems, there is a lack a 'nice worlds' in 40K. In a nasty universe How many worlds are going to be good enough so you can walk outside and breathe the air? How many of these world are going to be situated near areas suitable for warp jumps? Will you be able to grow food on them? Would they be able to supply your armies? I think the answer are going to be very negative. The STCS Hive designed to 'get round any problem'. As an example, I think given lack of choice any planet would be considered for colonisation if it has reasonable gravity, temperature range, and pressure. I think that is as good as its going to get, and humans would take this planet start to build on it. I imagine 'earth like worlds' to be incredibly rare. A small change in conditions and humans aren't going out side without some protection. I'd imagine that these humans would colonise Venus (popped into my head the other day). Sure its rough (well the pressure is astronomical!), but if you have no other options, you got to do it. After a lot of Terra-forming, maybe one day you could step outside, but I doubt it. If you can't grow outside you have to grow inside. Now looking at out own universe, you could stick one of these Proto-Hives on Mercury (need some heat shielding, not first choice), Venus (lots of shields, not first choice), Earth, Mars most moons. In fact any solid planet is up for grabs, and underwater. Also for 40K this type of Hive feels right and the methods sounds 'real', it just kinda fits the nightmare. Sure I would hate living there, but I'm sure farmers from the turn of century would hate London. LogisticsThe only problem that we're working with here is that while what you say is true - traditional hives tend to operate in horrendously 'polluted' environments - you're still going to suffer from exactly the same problems as traditional hiveworlds, at least in some regards. Even though 'food' might be grown within indiviudal biodomes, you're still going to suffer from the requirement of importing minerals (i.e. fertilisers) as well as the law of diminished returns... As for Bio-Spheres, they are there to grow the clans food and reprocess their waste, all of their waste. Fertiliser comes from the waste. Everything is recycled. However as you point out any system is rarely 100% efficient. Any loss in the system is replaced with energy from the core. This means that as long as the Bio-Sphere has power the clan lives, and will continue to run baring some mishap. Fuel and ControlThe endurance of fusion/plasma plants is really dependent on what game system you look at for inspiration on these matters, or the size of the device relative to the output... as well as a huge gamut of other factors. For example, 2300AD RPG system (seen more hard sci-fi than most) predicates 200 years for a fusion power plant before 'refit' and refuel. Other systems have greater or lesser periods... With 40k you run into the problem that this information is even more nebulous than anywhere else... I'm just making this up you know... Furthermore, you were talking about the production of these units via STC in the current Imperium - I could have misread that, however - in which case they wouldn't, of course, be using fuel from the Golden Age. Even then I would personally avoid fuel lasting for that long anyway... Not in the current Imperium. Golden Age, more explained in the bit I patched in (to avoid double posting!) With regards to self-sufficiency, again I would suggest this is not possible. It would be like saying London or Rome were self-sufficient, for me... Not self-sufficient in the building phase or while manufacturing. If once built, if the Hive ceased trading, then as long as the power held out the Hive would live, everyone locked away in the own little kingdom (tomb). On the fuel system and 'unusual and expensive' parts, does that not defeat the purpose of the STC in the first place? I figure this as a means of control from the central Empire base. It would be a 'censored' part of the STCS. I retrospect I think I would take away this restriction, I think they would have other ways to control. Integrating into AnargoAgain, as an individual world it does have fascinating potential, although I would question the ability of the world to be as self-sufficient as you seem to be suggesting... But for me adding it to Anargo is a good thing... if zholud is willing to accept it. The one problem that I see is that it suggests a standardised approach to colonisation, which is not something that I'm overtly up for... more so in the Golden Age than anything else where more individualised approaches might have been advocated. The process seems more apt for the Imperium, i.e. brute force over specific reaction to the environments on any given world. The Imperium is based of the STCS. It would have many similarities, but I think the 'current' as in 40K the Imperium has lost much of its finesse. With out finesse the Imperium may seem brutish. =Colonisation=While modularity does have its place, I'm unsure that such a standard approach to colonisation is entirely plausible in the way that it is currently being represented. I can understand that, what would you change to make it plausible or are you saying the whole concept of a modular system is ik? =Initial Set-up=Does this not imply a primarily military based colonisation procedure, which is itself doubtful? =Initialization of the Colonisation Complex=This actually seems more viable for the setup of a military base than a civilian colony... Colonisation goes hand in hand with military might. I think as soon as Humans saw aliens they went nuts. Humans have problems with differeing skin tones, how are they going to react to hostile aliens? Build exposed and vulnerable colonies just waiting to be raided? Hell no, big guns all the way! (remember 40K not reality, mind you...) =Proto-Hive=This actually reminds me of the Aquarius concept of the First Millennial Foundation... However, while there is a determined reason for population aggregation with Aquarius (i.e. it's an aquatic city!) I'm unsure of the specific logic of creating an technologically-advanced and reliant 'colony' as a pre-stage to broader colonisation of the world... You have to view the whole concept as one giant spider web of design. Everything has to link into everything else. Individually there may be reasons for changing things, but as a whole the system has to 'work'. Looking at today's world which is no where as crowded as in 40K, we have loads of 'modular stuff' even modular burgers. On building sites you just stick a few porta-cabins in for the workmen, it not always perfect but it works. You can store the equipment, and in remote places you can live in one! Houses are modular (stacked bricks), with many prefabbed (modular) parts. Why not stack modular Bio-Sphere bricks into a pile? If you need a bigger pile: Add some more Bio-Sphere bricks!
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Post by Philip on Jul 13, 2004 15:43:30 GMT -5
[Hi Kage2020, didn't combine this with the above post as I wanted to keep them separate bite sized chunks, any additions will be added to this post to avoid 'triple posting'.]Well i don't know about that, maybe if it was a paradise they might want to preserve it, but as philip pointed out/will point out very few worlds would be like that. The golden age of the british empire was about grabbing as much territory as was humanly possible as well startling scientific and technological break throughs so why not the same for the golden age of man, we are after all doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past =Motor set=Well this is my point, and this POV adds to the harshness of the Human's Empire. I would Imagine that Humans would get so used to dealing with impossible situations and building in the most extreme conditions imaginable that if they ever found a lash verdant paradise replete with tweeting birdies, they would immediately concrete over it. How would they deal with the idea of living in the open air, if all their lives they live in Hives? Even Vikings had a problem with the sky falling on there head because it get a bit dark in winter, how are these poor bastards going to feel? Outside with no Hazard suit, in the middle of a jungle full of life, staring up trees that they had never seen before, surrounded by strange sounds of the animal calls. Maybe standing on the shore looking out over wide crystal clear waters with fish jumpin' all gently lifting the spirit as you breathe in the sweet, sweet air... A beautiful and glorious sight to behold? No way! This is 40K where're talking about: you just know its going to be a Death World. The last time Humans found a paradise it ate them, and I doubt they will fall for that again. Added 15-July-2004 11.44==Hive Works===Stacks, Nobles and the Church=Though the Hive is a Tetrahedron its internal structure is arranged in stacks. The central Stack is the longest stack and reaches from the core deep in the heart of the hive to the very top. This stack is the control stack and is were the noble families live. All other stacks are are progressively shorter as you more away from the centre, decrease in the number of layer until the out most boarder edge is reached, the last 'stack' is a single layer. On top of each of these stacks is an Imperial church/ shrine and once a week all those of that stack make the journey to this top most and holy place (depending on their shift). It is the one time that many of those who dell in the hive actually see day light, flooding in through the stained glass of the huge Gothic windows. The external surface of the Hive looks like layer upon layer of riveted dark metallic grey cathedrals, with thousands of spires reaching for the sky above. =Connections=The logistics of supplying busy hives is complex. As the hive grows the central core is less accessible from outside, and so relatively few industries are located in the inner stacks and are turned over to design and management. Most manufacturing occurs in the outer layers, with materials brought in by rail. These industries included the manufacture of small arms, clothes, food stuffs, electronics. Almost all internal hive manufacture relates to supplying equipment for the military (basically clothing, feeding and arming the troops they supply. As hives grow, the original ground based rail system becomes overstretched, so bridges are added joining directly into the layers above. The original bridges go the deepest into the Hive, the later bridges go as far as the layer it joined. Old Hives may have thousands of these bridges. Trains on these links are as long as the section of hive they service, so the train will stop once, completely inside the hive and simultaneously unload to all Bio-Spheres at once. Trains move very slowly for safety reasons, with a priest walking in fount, offering blessings as the maintenance crew clean the tracks. The wheels of these trains are cogs (maglift? Probably a better choice for the sane, but 40K is twisted). =External Manufacture=The area surrounding of a busy hive is turned over to other manufacture. The Hive supplying the labour from the outermost/ lower layers (only lower classes can get work in external factories). When manufacturing large equipment, it is most likely that conditions would be beyond a humans endurance and the air poisonous (pollution, but many worlds have hostile environments). External workers ware hazard suits: semi armoured, air conditioned and very tough. Working in the external industries is like working on an oil rig, and contracts are short (3 months?) to ensure competition. This is also one of the ways that people meet people from other Bio-Spheres, and have long enough contact to get to know them (another reason for short contracts). =Overall look=The hive is never (rarely) just a hive supplying armies, it is surrounded by masses of industry producing goods for supplying other hives down the logistics chain of the Empire. The pollution doesn't affect the people as they are always enclosed and sealed away from any ill effects. =Terra=The logistics chain can be thought of as a great spider web with Terra (Earth) at the very heart. Mars is the seconded oldest hive (as in the way I'm describing them) world, with the remaining land in between the hives taken up with heavy (very heavy) industries. With Mars taking up the heavy industry, Earth was left as a 'Pure' Hive world, its hives are for housing people, its entire surface was flattened with every inch covered with hives all interlinked with bridges (like Roman aqueducts but in metal). Each hive covered in churches, forming a giant cathedral to the Emperor of Mankind. =Quote from Rogue Trader= 'Humanity explores and settles the galaxy encountering many of the races of space at the same time. A golden age of scientific achievement and expansion, perfection of the STC system now permits an almost explosive expansion as humanity heads for the stars and a new beginning'
(Old school, corrections welcome)=Legacy=If this method of housing people was predominant as humanity colonised space, with some of these colonies becoming hives in time, it would mean that nearly every world that Humans claimed would have had one of these structures on it, whether in its 'colonisation complex', Proto-Hive or full Hive phase. Do these ancient structures still stand after 20,000 years? Do these structures form the base of other (natural) hives built later? Where any of these hives retrofitted during the great crusade, did the Emperor reactivate the logistics chain, a tide of renewal flooding through the Imperium?
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Post by CELS on Jul 16, 2004 23:54:59 GMT -5
Right! I've finally read it all!! ;D Here are my comments, in order of appearence (in my head) - Why are all spheres run by gans or clans? This is something that just seems appropriate for the lowly working class, not the citizens in the higher regions of the hive, or the nobles. - Organic development... Well, this has to do with the question; Why would one build hiveworlds from scratch? Why are hiveworlds useful? Well, first of all, they allow a potentially much more rapid growth of population than if this population was to be spread across ten worlds in a large subsector. Just as agri-worlds produce food and organic material as their main resource, and industrial worlds produce equipment and machinery, the main resource of hiveworlds are humans. These hiveworlds seem to be the cornerstone in a rapid colonisation. Build a hiveworld in an area of space, and it'll quickly have a large enough population to begin colonisation of nearby systems. In time, it will also be a tremendous asset to the military. Cannon fodder, baby. - "Emperor class hive"? But this was designed in the GAoT, long before the Emperor turned up. At this time, he was still hiding in Egypt or something - On the cheap IG, as suggested by zholud... Well, the IG are not really cheap cannon fodder in most cases. As zholud later points out, they are the elite of the PDF (Top 5 or 10 percent), which are already professional soldiers on many worlds. In other words, I don't agree that hiveworlds would just churn out millions of untrained troopers every year. When the Imperium needs untrained cannon fodder, they use the Penal Legions. - I agree with zholud on complex structures in hives. The STCS is very monolithic, as I have pointed out above. - Automated gun-systems... this would be irreplacable GAoT-tech then, since the Imperium doesn't even have guided torpedoes - On the Strike Cannon (I prefer the name Void Cannon, by the way), I don't think it makes sense to keep the planetary defences smack in the middle of population centres. One usually tries to divert fire away from the population centres, not direct fire towards them. I just don't see the point in having the void cannons right in the middle of hives, except that it might look cool - I agree on the length of work days. If you work 20 hours a day, the lack of sleep will cause immense damage, and you are likely to simply collapse from exhaustion after a short period of time. Even 16 work hours a day will probably cause psychological trauma which you don't want for the entire population of your hive. - Biosphere alternatives... as I've said elsewhere, the Biospheres don't really fit with 40k. As you say yourself, Philip, this isn't 100% 40k. Biospheres don't really make sense in this universe, they don't fit in. Perhaps we can work out a compromise though, like biospheres only needing minimal external supplies. There should definitely be a drawback though, to explain why they don't exist anywhere else. And just saying that they are GAoT-tech doesn't really make sense either, because you'd think that people would have learned to reproduce biospheres, after studying functioning versions for ten thousand years. The first thing that comes to mind is that biospheres would be very ineffective, space-wise. But then, that kind of goes against the ideas of hives, which are supposed to be cramped full of people.... any other ideas? - On the suggested lack of 'nice worlds' in 40k... this is something I would fiercely disagree with. Look at all the worlds GW have created in the fluff. Ultramar, Fenris, Cadia, Tallarn (once beautiful), Tanith... all the worlds appearing in BL novels... these aren't all completely hostile places, with acidic oceans, insidious atmospheres and extreme temperatures. In fact, there are comparatively few examples of the Imperium colonising such worlds. Look at all the Sabbat worlds, in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. Not too bad at all - "This is 40k we're talking about (...) The last time Humans found a paradise, it ate them." LoL! That's almost good enough to put in my sig - On STCS Hives only having industry near the outside... considering that these hives seem marvellously designed and planned out, this really shouldn't be a problem. The hives should be designed specifically so that the inside is easily accessible. Being on the inside should only mean an extra few minutes' delay in travel time. - Trains would definitely be mag-lev considering the overall tech-level of this hive Hope this helps. I think this is a very interesting idea with lots of potential. Hope we can work something out.
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Post by Philip on Jul 17, 2004 3:24:54 GMT -5
Right! I've finally read it all!! ;D Here are my comments, in order of appearence (in my head) -Why are all spheres run by gans or clans? This is something that just seems appropriate for the lowly working class, not the citizens in the higher regions of the hive, or the nobles. I agree with that, one rule for the Administration/ Nobles one rule for the workers. Its always been that way in Human civilizations. I think the Administrators/Nobles do not have Bio-Spheres, or if they do, they would grow exotic things. They would also have 'staff'. Organic development... Well, this has to do with the question; Why would one build hiveworlds from scratch? Why are hiveworlds useful? Well, first of all, they allow a potentially much more rapid growth of population than if this population was to be spread across ten worlds in a large subsector. Just as agri-worlds produce food and organic material as their main resource, and industrial worlds produce equipment and machinery, the main resource of hiveworlds are humans. These hiveworlds seem to be the cornerstone in a rapid colonisation. Build a hiveworld in an area of space, and it'll quickly have a large enough population to begin colonisation of nearby systems. In time, it will also be a tremendous asset to the military. Cannon fodder, baby. I agree, this type of Hive only comes about if certain conditions are met, and forms a vital 'node' in the logistic web. [quote author=CELS link=board=HiveSub&thread=1089532913&start=20#1 date=1090040099 -"Emperor class hive"? But this was designed in the GAoT, long before the Emperor turned up. At this time, he was still hiding in Egypt or something [/quote] I know, at the very beginning I did point out that it would have been called that in the GAoT. I will rename everything, as in original STCS GAoT names and current 40K names. - On the cheap IG, as suggested by zholud... Well, the IG are not really cheap cannon fodder in most cases. As zholud later points out, they are the elite of the PDF (Top 5 or 10 percent), which are already professional soldiers on many worlds. In other words, I don't agree that hiveworlds would just churn out millions of untrained troopers every year. When the Imperium needs untrained cannon fodder, they use the Penal Legions. True, that's why the Clans are big and train their own 'militia' of with the best are sent of to become IG. I see this as a possible 'Clan Contract' (one of many) were a clan could supply trained warriors for an electricity quota per year. - I agree with zholud on complex structures in hives. The STCS is very monolithic, as I have pointed out above. - Automated gun-systems... this would be irreplacable GAoT-tech then, since the Imperium doesn't even have guided torpedoes Yep, these would be very similar to robots, and robots are banned (you can just feel the control slipping away) - On the Strike Cannon (I prefer the name Void Cannon, by the way), I don't think it makes sense to keep the planetary defences smack in the middle of population centres. One usually tries to divert fire away from the population centres, not direct fire towards them. I just don't see the point in having the void cannons right in the middle of hives, except that it might look cool =MDS=The Void Cannon are powered by the Core, and shorter connection a better for that huge power load. Also the Void Cannon are quick a act as a 'missile defence shield' against heavy incoming ordinance and ships on suicide missions. These are the Hive primary defence, much like an officer carries a pistol, they are not the Plants primary defence systems. As an idea, if an asteroid was on its way, these babies will blow it apart, the void shields taking care of the debris. =Nukes=As for keeping the armaments away from population centres this makes perfect sense with regard to nuclear weapon wars on modern day Earth: as in order to stop a counter strike you destroy the enemies strike capability first. The faster you can destroy your enemies offensive capability the better, once you can destroy their offensive capability before the can launch and guarantee 100% kill rate of all missiles you can attack without fear of retaliation. Conversely, as 100% kill rate is unlikely, a 'missile defence shield' (like USA plans) allow you to soak up any nukes that didn't get destroyed by the first strike. =One stone=Keeping population centres away from silos means the aliens can not kill two birds with one stone. However it doesn't stop the aliens from building two missiles... =Incoming!=Two missiles are harder to hit that one, also if all the targets are in the same space the Void Cannon does not have to re-target over a large area (taking time) as there is only one big fat target the aliens can go for. As targets are destroyed, debris will interferer with other missiles and fighters. =Genocide=Also humans will be fighting for there lives, if say Orks overran one of these hive everyone they encounter is dead. If the cannon are destroyed you might as well blow the hive and stop the aliens gaining important info (Core self-destruct?) The aliens want to exterminate all of human kind not win a war of ideals. These aliens are not after converting humanity (aside from the Tau, but they turned up later), they are after killing humainty. - I agree on the length of work days. If you work 20 hours a day, the lack of sleep will cause immense damage, and you are likely to simply collapse from exhaustion after a short period of time. Even 16 work hours a day will probably cause psychological trauma which you don't want for the entire population of your hive. =Doctor shifts?=Fair enough, I was thinking of hours doctors do, with shifts etc. I'm sure the Imperium can supply drugs to keep everyone going. Also the population could be descendants of genetically engineered humans who require little sleep (?). Maybe its the number of hours billed rather than hard slog? - On the suggested lack of 'nice worlds' in 40k... this is something I would fiercely disagree with. Look at all the worlds GW have created in the fluff. Ultramar, Fenris, Cadia, Tallarn (once beautiful), Tanith... all the worlds appearing in BL novels... these aren't all completely hostile places, with acidic oceans, insidious atmospheres and extreme temperatures. In fact, there are comparatively few examples of the Imperium colonising such worlds. Look at all the Sabbat worlds, in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. Not too bad at all =Tiny fraction=Of all the planets in the universe GW has covered a tiny fraction. These may be the best worlds they have, idea for outside combat and heroic stories. - On STCS Hives only having industry near the outside... considering that these hives seem marvellously designed and planned out, this really shouldn't be a problem. The hives should be designed specifically so that the inside is easily accessible. Being on the inside should only mean an extra few minutes' delay in travel time. =Order=Lighter industry inside, heavy industry outside. Gun parts cast/ manufactured outside but assembled inside (maybe the Clan is responsible for the assembly and testing of the weapons that will equip the troops it will supply to IG as well as its own militia. Once a year they get a giant flat pack!) . Tanks all outside, food production all inside. Trains would definitely be mag-lev considering the overall tech-level of this hive. I though so to, but then I thought of it being more 'production line' considering the logistics of a Hive. =Cogs rule=What if the train wasn't as we see them today, but a endless train: one very long train run in a loop. One side of the loop in the heavy industry sector the other side in the hive. As one section of 'train' is loaded up in the Industry sector another section, the oppose section is being unloaded (reloaded) in the hive. Once done, the train clicks around one section and the process is repeated. A hive could have thousands of these 'loops'. =Commuters=This would make meg-lev pointless for this part, but for moving people it may be good. Hope this helps. I think this is a very interesting idea with lots of potential. Hope we can work something out. It helps a lot, thanks for getting back to me with your thoughts. I'm positive we can make this work, and the only way to get any concept to 'stand on its feet' to integrate others ideas into its structure. The more holes that can be found the better.
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Post by Philip on Jul 17, 2004 3:25:54 GMT -5
More than 10,000 characters so chopped this bit out.- Biosphere alternatives... as I've said elsewhere, the Biospheres don't really fit with 40k. As you say yourself, Philip, this isn't 100% 40k. Biospheres don't really make sense in this universe, they don't fit in. Perhaps we can work out a compromise though, like biospheres only needing minimal external supplies. There should definitely be a drawback though, to explain why they don't exist anywhere else. And just saying that they are GAoT-tech doesn't really make sense either, because you'd think that people would have learned to reproduce biospheres, after studying functioning versions for ten thousand years. The first thing that comes to mind is that biospheres would be very ineffective, space-wise. But then, that kind of goes against the ideas of hives, which are supposed to be cramped full of people.... any other ideas? =Central concept=Bio-Spheres are central to making truly titanic hives possible. Without them the concept is redundant as supplying food becomes an horrendous problem. Shipping food from a Agri-world is a tremendous waste of energy, and makes the Hive unbelievably vulnerable. I'm thinking of doing a more comprehensive design of Bio-Spheres, as there could be many variations based of the same technology. Even Starships could have had Bio-Sphere technology back in the GAoT? I figured that once the design is sorted for the GAoT era, then the fun of how these complex systems fell apart over the millennia can be tackled. As for drawbacks, well; =Old Age=How well will 20,000 years old technology work? Also, the compact Bio-Shere design would (I imagine) be heavily automated, dare I say 'Robots' or AI controlling the racks and environment? =Chaos=If the decadent nobles succumbed to chaos, they could lock down the hive, and open up the Bio-Spheres one at a time to conquer them one at a time. The Chaos worshipping scum could systematically take over the whole hive bit by bit, even the small force of nobles and security could do it as they are not fighting the whole hive all at once. So the Hive could end up as a den of chaos, and the Empire (back then) may have had no choice but to 'blow the hive'. Also, wouldn't a Hive have a huge warp sig? =Virus=Computer virus shuts down Bio-Sphere AI and is spread via the Administration computers network(with Admin rights!). =Core Failure=No core, no Hive. -Endless=The possibilities for subverting such a complex system is endless. More than 10,000 characters so chopped this bit out.- On the Strike Cannon (I prefer the name Void Cannon, by the way), I don't think it makes sense to keep the planetary defences smack in the middle of population centres. One usually tries to divert fire away from the population centres, not direct fire towards them. I just don't see the point in having the void cannons right in the middle of hives, except that it might look cool =Moot=When the Cannon are most likely to be used for defence is in the early stages of development, and in the early stages it isn't a hive its a military base without a civilian population. It will only turn into a hive it the Empires boarder are expanded and the military base finds itself deep in friendly territory. It changes form a military base into a civilian base and trade/ manufacturing centre. In time, if exceptionally busy it may become a Hive, but by then it is so deep in the Human Empire (During the GAoT) that the Cannon become redundant.
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Post by Philip on Jul 17, 2004 4:42:04 GMT -5
As 'Bio-Spheres' form the basis of this type of hive structure, I though I'd describe them in more detail. I think that calling the whole system STCS:Hive is a mistake as it suggests an organized effort to build a hive immediately, rather than the organic growth of human populations and how they change over time. This system allows for flexibility, it can support a hive may years down the road, but it isn't the initial or driving force in using this system. It is a system to provide a habitat for humans in any condition and as compact as possible. Maybe 'STCS: Colony System' would be a better title? I'm open to suggestions.
===Standard Template Construction System===
= Life-Support Hydroponics Module. (LS/ HM)= Where all food is grown using a tray and rack mount system. Includes full processing and recycling equipment. Modules are around 240x240x240 meters, though sizes very.
=Accommodation= Life-Support Accommodation Module (LS/ AM)= Includes modular 'home' units for worker's families, water and waste reprocessing links to LS/ HM. Social dinning areas, entertainment areas, clubs and trade centre (trade centre comes with external links to 'Superstructure Public Travel Network').
=Workspace = Life-Support Workspace Module (LS/ WM)= Fitted to cover a verity of work functions to do with Module servicing and manufacture. Comes with external links to 'Superstructure Infrastructure Network', modular and can be removed or exchanged Sectors: Tool maintenance Weapon/ equipment assembly supplied in Flat packs (DIY). Cloths manufacture (sweat shop) Food stuffs packaging (Links to LS/ HM) Specialist workshops (to do with specialist contacts)
=Other Modules= These relate to systems and structures not part of worker families, such as the massive 'Core Module', 'Barracks Module', 'Engineering module' etc.
All modules are compatible, interlocking, stackable and available in a variety of configurations. The minimum is one of each of LS/ HM,AM and WM and a power Plant. This minimum configuration could be used for a mining colony within 'safe' Empire Space.
Added 17 July 2004 17:05
===Hydroponics Module===
=Trays= Trays are 2m x 2m and 50cm deep. The tray is comprised of two parts, the bath and the lid. The tray is mounted horizontally (flat) on rails and is housed is a cabinet. Each cabinet is 10m high and can house 18 trays (50cm at top and bottom of the cabinet is not used for trays but other equipment). Each cabinet is 2.5m wide and 3m deep.
=Bath= The Bath is filled with water and a genetically engineered plant (GEP) grows on the surface of this water. The water is slow flowing and nutrient rich (pre-process human waste).
=Lid= The lid has a material applied to the inner surface that is water proof and emits light when low voltage is applied to it (similar to OLEDs). This light enables the GEPs to photosynthesise and to grow.
=Sealed Unit= The Bath and the Lid form a sealed unit (seal via gasket, not permanent). The sealed unit has 4 connections, two for water, two for air. It has temp, light, air and water quality sensors. Also pump and light failure warning alarms.
=Air= Air is collected via a Vacuum unit located at the top of all the Modules belonging to the Clan. This air is then filtered and pumped through all of the trays within the Hydroponics Module. The GEPs absorb the carbon dioxide from the air and fresh air is pumped out into the ventilation systems.
=Water= Water pre-processed through 'reed beds' is pumped into all of the trays. The GEPs absorb nutrients from the water, the dense root system of the GEPs slows the current and acts as a filter. The water pumped out of the trays is reasonably pure, it is then used as coolant for the hotter running systems within modules, the heat transferred to the water converts it to a steam killing any bacteria. It is then pump to holding tanks waiting to be used.
=Harvest= Trays have to be emptied when the GEPs have grown to harvesting hight. Trays are isolated from the system, rolled out from the cabinet on rails, unsealed, harvested, cleaned, and reseeded. The reseeding is with a material impregnated with seeds semi-germinated, filters catch any that become dislodged. Once reseeded the tray can be reintroduced into the system.
=Food (Nuts and Berries)= The thin translucent leaves are quite good source of fibre, but the main bulk is the sugar rich 'berry'. Another type has a fruit similar to nuts, another is protein rich.
=System Control= All the trays are controlled by computer systems which regulate water and air flow, to ensure a regular and consistent food supply. It is 'intelligent' and can balance load, and if a surplus is grown mark out these trays are 'export' (or dump). In the system is under producing, it can request 'carbon dioxide input' and up the light levels. The system usually runs at 60% max (but some have pushed it as high as 80% with an overcrowded Accommodation module. 100% means people are living outside the Accommodation module sleeping rough in the Hydroponics Module's gang ways).
=No Computers= This system can be run without a computer system, but errors from everything being done manually means that extra cold storage is required to act as a buffer.
Added 17 July 2004 18:08
=Calculations= A 75-80m diameter Biosphere will have 358 cabinets and 6444 trays.
As each tray has 4 sq/m of growing space, this results in a total of 25,776 sq/m of 'field'.
That's 25 sq/km or 5km2 or 2.5 hectares, enough to support 10 families consisting of 2 adults and two children (assuming calories equal to grain) or 40 people in total.
=Demographics= 'Official figures', but the reality would be different.
Stage A: 10 - 60+ 10 - 40+ 10 - 20+ 10 – Babies
Stage B 10 - 70+ Dies 10 - 50+ 10 - 30+ 10 – 10+
Marriage age 20+. Death age 70+.
=18 Biospheres per Module= A block of 3x3x3 80m Biospheres (18 Biospheres in total) housed in the Hydroponics Module, would provided enough food and air for 180 Families or 720 people. The Hydroponics Module would be of 240m x 240m x 240m. This would provide life-support for the entire Clan.
This means there will be 180 home units in the Accommodation Module.
===Accommodation Module ===
=3 Blocks= A modern day tower block has 4 flats per floor and 15 floors for 60 flats in total. The Accommodation Module, if going by today's standards, would have to be the size of 3 blocks of flats joined together.
=Totals= Using this design the hydroponics do not requires sunlight, windows are luxury, so all these blocks can be right next to each other. Therefore: 3 blocks for accommodation, 4 blocks for food, 1 block for work, a total of 6 (15 story) blocks of flats combined into one giant 'super block' to house an 180 family clan. The super block is referred to as a the 'Clan Block'. As nearly all work and food production are within the Clan Block, cars and roads a redundant. Public travel is by rail (Trams?)
Clan Blocks A ground area of a Clan Block is 200m x 400m. That's 12.5 Clan Blocks (2250 families or 9000 individuals) per sq/km. If one level is 15 block, the figure increase with extra levels.
Levels..........People per sq/km 1....................9000 2....................18,000 4....................36,000
Even at 4 levels at 60 stories that's 36,000 per per sq/km. That's a lot.
60 stories, you could build that with today's technology.
=Populations in an area= For 100km2 that's 360million, for 1000km2 that's 36 billion (exceeds current earth population).
Earth has a Circumference at the equator 40,000 km, a single ring of 60 story 1000km2 hives would be 40 hives for housing 1,440 billion 1.4 trillion (Our current systems will have problems with 10 Billion)
Earth has a total land area of 30%, or 150,000,000 sq/km and could take 150 60 story Hives (if flat and drained) and house 5,400 billion. 5,4000,000,000,000 is 5.4 trillion. At 120 stories that's 10.8 trillion on 30% of the Earth's surface (Many modern Sky Scrapers have 100 stories)
Earth is one big Hive in 40K, it is flat with no ocean, using this system, we could have a self-sustaining population way into the trillions, say 64.8 trillion at 240 stories?
Obviously you could not have such a high population,, earthquakes would cause a serious problem for one. But a population if 30 or 40 trillion sounds ok.
=Importing food per trillion= Importing food for 1 trillion people is impossible, say each human tucks away 500g per day, that's a whooping 500,000,000,000kg or 500 million tonnes per day in solid food and the liquids haven't even been delivered! That's well over a Billion tonnes a day, every day.
Getting that volume of goods off the surface of an agricultural world (which if it isn't using the rack and tray system isn't going to have the area to produce enough food) sending through space, dropping it off and getting it to everyone is a huge task.
How much is it going to take to shift that?
The Hive would need 39 'super tanker sized' ships at 80,000 tones a pop to supply rations of only (500g or food and ½ litre of water). That's assuming one days travel, 1 day loading and 1 day unloading. Each additional day in travel requires an extra 13 tankers to be 'en route'.
Considering most travel in star systems is slow, a ten day trip means 156 tankers, a 100 day trip means 1,526 tankers.
At 40 trillion it really can't be done.
=Biospheres is how they did it= Given the numbers, I don't think it is viable to Import food to a hive if the Biospheres concept works out. I don't think a hive could even have come about without Biospheres.
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Post by CELS on Jul 17, 2004 23:28:38 GMT -5
=MDS=The Void Cannon are powered by the Core, and shorter connection a better for that huge power load. Also the Void Cannon are quick a act as a 'missile defence shield' against heavy incoming ordinance and ships on suicide missions. These are the Hive primary defence, much like an officer carries a pistol, they are not the Plants primary defence systems. Of course, you could have a second reactor for the Void Cannon if it was away from the Hive. Assuming you meant 'planets primary defence system' though, you have a fair point. But then you really shouldn't make it sound like these are fantastically powerful next to normal planetary defence lasers, because normal defence lasers don't do to ships what you described. Sure, but there are many ways to take out asteroids, in the unlikely event that any major ones should hit the planets. Orbital defence platforms, system ships, planetary missile silos, etc. Of course not. But that's really a flawed argument, in my humble opinion. Let's say you have 5,000 hives across the surface of the planet. If the strike cannons were placed away from the hives, that would make it 10,000 targets. Big difference. That is, assuming that the aliens want to bombard the hives as well. If they don't want to bombard the hives, they are forced to bombard them because it is the only way of invading the planet without getting shot to pieces. If they want to take over the hives, rather than atomizing them, you increase your chance of surviving the invasion, because the cavalry (IG), can still come and save the day. Either way, I think it's an advantage to keep the void cannon away from the hive. If it was one hive with a void cannon versus one battleship, I would agree. But we're talking about invading fleets, with enemy ships which are far outnumbered by the planet's defence weapons. Those ships will be firing their maximum number of missiles no matter what. so you wouldn't really double the amount of incoming missiles by seperating the Void Cannon. A hive is expensive and valuable, and the Imperium is unlikely to self-destruct a hive simply to stop the orks from gaining important info. If the aliens had captured a hive, I believe the Imperials would fight them for it, so that they could use it later. Besides... if the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, they will probably have to take out the alien fleet before landing their forces, leaving no route of escape for the aliens. They can learn all they want, because they're going to die on that planet anyway Not true. Dark Eldar would leave the hives and take the people as prisoners, most likely. Orks would probably do the same, as they are known to use other races as slaves. Hell, some Orks are even known to leave conquered human worlds standing, and let the population live under their command. When I've worked enough on the Archaios subsector, and start work on the Ork empire in Anargo, you will see examples of this Doctors can't do those shifts for years at a time. They're doctors, not Space Marines Yeah, maybe the Imperium can supply those drugs, but you have to wonder at the side-effects and the cost of these drugs. Genetically engineered humans... the only genetically engineered humans I know of in 40k, are the Primarchs. As some people have pointed out, Space Marines are really biologically engineered rather than genetically engineered (since their original genes are normal, and unmodified) Why do you insist on having 16 hour work shifts? This place sounds bad enough if it was 12 hour work shifts! Assuming you mean "of all the planets in the Imperium", yes, you could be right. But... upon starting the Anargo Sector Project, I believe we calculated that if the sector was a cube with sides 200 light-years long, there could be about 10,000 sectors in the Imperium. There are over 21,000 systems in the Anargo sector. That means there are possibly 210,000,000 systems in the Imperium. Supposedly, there are a million worlds in the Imperium. This means that one system in every 210 systems in the Imperium needs to have a habitable planet, for every planet in the Imperium to be habitable. Alright, this is hardly a realistic calculation, but I think it illustrates that it would be strange if only one in a hundred Imperial worlds were habitable. In the great warmachine that is the Imperium, I really don't think each weapon is tested thoroughly before it's put to use To be honest, I thought of the same thing, and I think it's a pretty cool idea Mag-lev would be as useful as ever. Can you imagine the power needed to push this train? The friction created if this train runs on rails or cogs? I'm glad you feel that way... I shall now proceed to rip your next post to pieces
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Post by Philip on Jul 18, 2004 0:16:44 GMT -5
Thanks CELS very nice. Assuming you mean "of all the planets in the Imperium", yes, you could be right. But... upon starting the Anargo Sector Project, I believe we calculated that if the sector was a cube with sides 200 light-years long, there could be about 10,000 sectors in the Imperium. There are over 21,000 systems in the Anargo sector. That means there are possibly 210,000,000 systems in the Imperium. Supposedly, there are a million worlds in the Imperium. This means that one system in every 210 systems in the Imperium needs to have a habitable planet, for every planet in the Imperium to be habitable. Alright, this is hardly a realistic calculation, but I think it illustrates that it would be strange if only one in a hundred Imperial worlds were habitable. I imagine that in the GAoT that Humans found may worlds that were 'close but no cigar'. These worlds just needed a little terraforming to get it up to scratch. While in the process of transforming a world, the humans would need a safe, enclosed habitat. One day these worlds would have a breathable atmosphere, and you would be able to step outside without Sun Block 40k, but back then humans couldn't. Perhaps many of the Earth like worlds are a legacy from the GAoT? =Revisions=When a Proto-Hive starts to expand, traffic through the area increases, and the Proto-Hive is deep within Empire space, the Cannon are decommissioned, and new ones may be built further out if needed. (Or the cannon could be on rails and moved out as the Proto-Hive expands?) Work day 12 Hours. As for Las-Guns they are delivered as flat-packs to the Clans, put together by the clans engineer. How well do you think the Flat Packs will go together? IKEA can't even get that right with a book shelf, imagine the bits missing from something as complex as a Las-Gun! Also, I think its appropriate that the IG should be wondering around with a screw loose. Each train wheel (cog) could have its own electric motor? I like Mag-Lift though, perhaps it started out with Mag-Lift but it broke, and now it been retrofitted with cogs. Mag-Lift is so GAoTie. Keep rippin'
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Post by Philip on Jul 20, 2004 15:55:25 GMT -5
[Hi Kage2020: This post will cover differing classes of Colonisation System, and will be added to later, As there is a 10,000 character limit please do not combine with the above post]
===STCS: Colonisation Systems ===
=Proto-Hive?= The Colonisation Systems (CS) are design to house people and provide systems to acquire resources to ensure survival. Some types of CS can lead to Hives while others are less likely to do so. Class Alpha CS forms the most organised and stable of all Hives. Class Beta CS are a bit rougher and is used to 'retrofitted a world'. Class Omega CS can lead to massively populated areas (but not a 'Hives') with a purely transient population: whether travelling to new worlds, or relocating (if situations dictate and the building of a Class Beta CS next to the Class Omega CS).
=Class Alpha=
=Structure= All use the metallic (adamantium) prefabricated 'flatpack' system with Biospheres and full Life-support. Class Alpha STCS:CS can be used for a verity of purposes, and are marked by the fact of not relying on local resources to build. All parts are taken to the site as is, no parts are manufactured on site. Consisting of Prefabricated parts assembled on site to form Modules with can then be combined into larger structures. To combine the modules a 'superstructure' is used to lock each module into place and in the correct order. Space in between the Modules is filled with 'blast shields' foamed into place.
The Modules come in various shapes tetrahedron, octahedron, cube etc. but the internal space is always a sphere with holes cut into it and tube links to other Module's spheres. The sphere and tube links are referred to as the 'inner skin', the outward shape (tetrahedron etc.) of the module the 'outer skin'.
The space between the inner and outer skins is filled with a fireproof poly carbonate like foam. The tubes form walkways, veneration shafts and cables runs. All internal systems are mounted in the open for easy access, and each module can be totally isolated from all the others (Cable runs have automated connects with blast doors backed up be iris cutters).
As Class Alpha STCS:CS have a metal double skin with fireproof filling they are exceptionally tough. They don't rust or corrode, are resistant to acids and alkaline solutions, and form a good radiation shield. They are tougher then tanks, and as they don't have to move, the external walls can have 'ablative armour' attached that can be far thicker (2m+).
=Kitting it out= Walkways are paved with metal grills used to give a flat surface to the tubes. Under the metal grills is run much of the water system's plumbing. Overhead the ventilation ducting in hung. The sides are panelled of for cabling and power feeds. This Set-up gives corridors in Alpha Class STCS:CS an octagon cross-section.
Spheres are unusually multi-levelled to make the most of the space, and once fully equipped and panelled off may not look like a sphere but a cube.
=Custom job= The Military have a custom 'subclass' were the modules are 'pre assembled' as drop ships. Though they can't be integrated into larger structures, but they are good for setting up quick bases. For military bases these are the first in, giving the builders of the Alpha Class STCS:CS a safe and sustainable environment from which to run operations.
=Uses= Used for Military Bases, Mining, Terraforming operations Military Base: Self contained base on any world on the frontier (possible Hive if successfully converts to an Industry Base) Industry Base: Sets up mining, terraforming or industry command base on any world (possible Hive)
=Class Beta=
=Structure= Constructed with concrete/ steel using 'traditional methods' of construction with Biospheres and Life-support. Built from base materials with minimal prefabricated parts, all done 'on site' and is most similar to modern day building techniques. Basically a steel adamantium alloy frame with plascrete panels* glued and riveted** into place.
*plasticised cement with crushed local stone chips, compressed around a adamantium mesh to form a strong rigid non-brittle panel. **rivets holds it together while glue dries, allowing rapid construction as the builders do not have to wait for it to set up. The rivets stop pressure from forcing the glue out of the joints, and maintains exact shape.
The plascrete panels form an integral part of the building, though once set up the rivets are redundant, getting them out is very hard and a waste of time (this is why 40K has so many rivets). Once the frame and panels are up, it is skinned in concrete, exterior walls can be several metres thick at the base.
=Uses= Built to deal with huge populations on established/ overpopulated worlds were food production can no longer support the population via tradition farming methods. Often referred to as 'world retrofitting'.
Built as part of Industry Complexes to house workers in hostile/ polluted environments were food can't be grown externally.
=Class Omega=
=Structure= Light weight stackable units dropped from orbit 'as is', [NO Biospheres] but has minimal Life-support: air scrubbers and Bio-Suits. Class Omega CS are exceptionally quick to deploy and set up: The base unit sits on a foundation of 5 'piles' driven into the ground, with additional units stacked on top of the Base unit, and riveted together.
=Uses= Refugee Camp, require goods to be shipped to the camp as it has no biospheres to produce food and agriculture isn't set up. Totally dependant on outside resources (unless cultivation program set up). Usually, Class Beta CS will be under way as soon as most of the Refugees are situated.
Base Camp for M-Class Worlds: Explorers, Scientific field Study Units or Salvage teams. The 40K equivalent of a Porta-Cabin. If in hostile environments may use a variation with air-locks and if in an isolated/ difficult to reach sector of space Biospheres (though this may warrant an Alpha Class STCS:CS)
=Other systems= These systems are for housing the human population and doesn't included other STCS systems such as Heavy Industry Complexes: manufacturing, refining, processing and extraction, Planetary defence systems, Scientific Labs, terraforming stacks etc.
=Mix and Match= It is possible for a planet to have Alpha, Beta and Omega Class CS on it, though their fundamentally different structures of the CS prohibit direct integration (though it has probably been tried).
=Summary= Alpha: Resource independent, exceptionally tough and secure. Beta: Resource dependant. Omega: Temporary.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 20, 2004 22:26:51 GMT -5
Could a mining company get their hands on these, how much would it cost them. Which one would you suggest they would use.
You can get these though, can't you,
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Post by Philip on Jul 20, 2004 23:33:22 GMT -5
During the GAoT a mining company would use the STCS:CS. Which class depends on environmental conditions on the planet, the value of the materials mined, and economic viability of the overall project. I imagine that the Alpha class would be hideously expensive (there again there is army surplus?) and Omega relatively cheap.
=Lethal environment?= One worlds with hostile environments that are lethal to humans, Class Alpha CS are the way to go for the initial set up. Class Alpha CS can be put in any environment, even submerged on the ocean floor as they are completely sealed.
As the cost of these systems is very steep, the value of the materials or the amount of material must be very high.
Once this base of operations is set up, building crews could then build specifically designed Class Beta CS to bring costs down (only the military go nuts for Class Alpha CS) if conditions permit.
=Earth Environment?= Class Omega CS will do for that! If the operation is very big, then Class Beta CS. If food supply is going to be a problem (no agri worlds near by) Class Beta CS have to be built or farming projects set up.
=Flexible= Now that the overall design is sorted (kinda) the system can be adapted to suit any world and any environment. Feel fee to change it, but remember this is from the GAoT and in current 40K there are no Biospheres based on tray and rack as described in these CS.
=40k= Could a mining company get hold of them now? I don't see a problem with the Class Omega CSas these lack biospheres and many worlds in Anargo are earth like. So if you want to use Class Omega CS I don't think to many people would object. It may be that Class Omega CS are still be manufactured in current 40K.
Using the others could be a bit controversial. Class Alpha is out of the question, they simply don't make them any more. A modified Class Beta, with a far less efficient Biospheres or no Biospheres may be possible, as the construction system is still used (my version anyway, and explains the rivets and steel bracing look)
=Not Official 40K= As I can't see any other way of a Hive working, I think all systems would still be used in the current 40K as I don't think they are that complex to build; a suit of Space Marine armour is far more complex.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 21, 2004 14:00:07 GMT -5
Again, I'm going to say that I'm extremely uncomfortable with the statements that these structures were 'common' in the G/DAoT... I, well, just don't like it. I'm not comfortable with a system that is predicated upon aggregating the population to such huge extent, nor one that assumes incredibly materials science nor one that is capable of supporting trillions...
I like the idea of a unique hive being formed in this way, but I don't follow the train of logic which defines that this might have been a common means in the G/DAoT.
As it stands the hive concept would work well if we reduced the population away from the trillions and more into 'normal' hive levels and, further, we took away the predication of self-sufficiency... But, well, I'm not sure of it otherwise.
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