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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 27, 2004 9:21:48 GMT -5
I might end up moving this thread, but at the moment I'll just leave it here... Does anyone have any information on the 'standardised' representation of system and world information for the ASP? The Guide suggests an obvious approach with regards to the representation of physical and limited social data (which I will post an example of)... But what about the data that 40k-ifies this data? How should we represent this? The reason that I ask is that a number of people have made some good postings on world information, but which are hamstrung by the lack of consistency in that representation. Given that I feel that the GW product fails manifestly in consistent representation, that is one of the sustained goals of the ASP. Thoughts? Kage
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Post by zholud on Jan 27, 2004 12:45:21 GMT -5
Agreed on the need of standardization. Once again I propose own system as a raw guide but of course it should be modified largely. Usual GW representation is much smaller, with data only needed to them ATM, so it varies from publication to publication.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 27, 2004 13:35:42 GMT -5
There will be need to be two levels of data, but I'll take a look at yours again... One thing that is obvious, however, is there should be no effort to make the raw data 'interesting'. That will arise in different areas of world descriptions, and that is one of the greatest criticisms of things posted thus far. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 27, 2004 15:59:12 GMT -5
Obviously, if we're to write an in-character representation, the contents would most be very different depending on who wrote it. I guess the Administratum would give the most comprehensive report... If we're dividing the report into two levels of data, perhaps one could be written by the Administratum, and the other by Adeptus Mechanicus cartographers or something. The first report, by the Adm, would contain information such as... - Population *
- Tithe grade *
- Estimate of PDF
- When it was first catalogued
- First Imperial landing
- Aestimare *
- World class *
- Government?
- Archaeotech?
- Coordinates
- Resources? (Or is this sufficiently covered by Tithe Grade?)
I didn't write this in any particular order. The entries marked with an asterisk are the ones commonly used by GW. The report by Imperial / AM cartographers would include physical charactersics, such as - Coordinates
- Orbital distance
- Equatorial diameter
- Rotation
- Orbital period
- Atmosphere
- Surface atmospheric pressure
- Hydrosphere
- Axial tilt
- Gravity
- Surface temperature
- Precipitation
- Wind speed
- Lifeforms, autochtonic and introduced
- Length of day?
- Density?
- Mass?
- Moons?
Anything you want to see added or removed?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 27, 2004 19:37:42 GMT -5
First off, thanks CELS for being the first to make a comprehensive reply... Obviously, if we're to write an in-character representation, the contents would most be very different depending on who wrote it. I guess the Administratum would give the most comprehensive report... What I am keen on at this moment is that we present the information as 'objectively' as possible. The introduction of intepretation by individuals of the Imperium is something that I was hoping to get people to do as an addendum, but the core goal is to present the 'clear' information on the world. I would strongly argue that you will find that the presentation of 'unbaised' and 'biased' imagination is going to create something far more than the presentation of either information type alone. If we're dividing the report into two levels of data, perhaps one could be written by the Administratum, and the other by Adeptus Mechanicus cartographers or something. By this suggestion then the adeptus mechanicus report would consist for the physical and socio-graphic data... the numbers, as it were. This is where the information that is produced in the Guide is replicated. It is the raw data with little representation. The next level of data is going to be a description of the culture, the history of the world and so on... But also, more importantly, how the Guide data is interpreted. This is where culture interacts with enironment. And then I would hope to introduce the concept of bias. There are some possibilities here, such as the introduction of information-reduction due to the hierarchal nature of the Impeirum, but again that is something that is up for grabs. Yep, it's complex, but that's the reason that I thought that it would be appropriate to start this thread now that data is beginning to be published. Anything you want to see added or removed? That is the question. That is the reason that I opened it up for discussion... Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 28, 2004 16:19:49 GMT -5
First off, thanks CELS for being the first to make a comprehensive reply... Heh, no problem. I figured you wouldn't agree anyway (which turned out to be true), but I was hoping my failure would provoke others into making their suggestions... What I am keen on at this moment is that we present the information as 'objectively' as possible. This sounds like an out-of-character representation, in which case the best idea would be to just merge the two parts I suggested together, and perhaps remove the information of first sighting and landing, and add something describing the culture and attitude of the world. The introduction of intepretation by individuals of the Imperium is something that I was hoping to get people to do as an addendum, but the core goal is to present the 'clear' information on the world. Hmm, this is a question of lay-out to me. I would imagine that for most of our visitors, the kind of reports suggested by myself and zholud would be most helpful. The kind of objective representation you're looking for seems useful for other things, such as RPGing maybe? By this suggestion then the adeptus mechanicus report would consist for the physical and socio-graphic data... the numbers, as it were. This is where the information that is produced in the Guide is replicated. It is the raw data with little representation. Socio-graphic? I'm not sure I understand what that means, but I was suggesting that physical data would be compiled by Adeptus Mechanicus cartographers, and should be written accordingly (except in the 'objective' version) The next level of data is going to be a description of the culture, the history of the world and so on... But also, more importantly, how the Guide data is interpreted. This is where culture interacts with enironment. Ah, I misunderstood what two levels you were talking about. Well, in that case I suggest four levels. A) Adeptus Mechanicus cartographer data on the world's physical characteristics. Gravity, mass, orbit, whatever B) Administratum overview-file of the planet. Tithe grade, population, defense, class, etc C) Out-of-character, omniscient data, compiled with the guide. Population, gravity, culture traits, law-level, etc C)Out-of-character, omniscient description of the world. History, culture, military, government, important characters, etc And then I would hope to introduce the concept of bias. There are some possibilities here, such as the introduction of information-reduction due to the hierarchal nature of the Impeirum, but again that is something that is up for grabs. Biased reports should be optional, IMO. Unless you're suggesting that any of the four levels I described above should be biased...?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 29, 2004 10:14:32 GMT -5
No, that was the basic idea... I shall get to posting the Guide format for system representation later on using two examples: Terra and Kyoso, of the Traveller universe. This will be the standard format for the 'objective' data which can then be split and 40k-ified to form the adeptus mechanicus and adeptus administratum representation. How the 'cultural' information is represented is still up for grabs, although that really depends on the level of detail that people are producing... which is another point entirely. Kage
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Post by Zidagar Dinoman on Jan 29, 2004 10:25:54 GMT -5
I like the idea of different factions of the Imperium compling their seperate surveys together. Building on what Kage said:
A) Adeptus Mechanicus or Rouge Trader survey data on the system's and world's physical characteristics. B) Administratum overview-file of the planet. Tithe grade (and in what form the tithe is collected), population, defense, class, C) All other information perhaps in the form of a Historian's thesis or report to Anargo sector command, a detailed anaylsis of how the worlds physical conditions effect the population's culture, laws, and customs. D) An Inquisitor's report on any unusual Archeotech or heretic activities. Deemed classified at Vermillion level.
-Dinoman
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Post by CELS on Jan 30, 2004 14:23:45 GMT -5
The Historian's report of the world should be very optional IMO, and the out-of-character omniscient report obligatory. After all, the omniscient view is a lot more informative and useful than the view of some biased historian. Of course, the view of the historian might be interesting to read, especially on some areas, but....
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Post by Minister on Feb 1, 2004 19:17:50 GMT -5
One thing which ocours: the system doesn't HAVE to be standardised. There are that many systems floating about (and that many half-finished attempts to simplify/improve the system) over the centuries that the whoe system will most likley be a contradictory jumble...
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 3, 2004 8:27:41 GMT -5
A standardised representation is required, I'm afraid, or at least will be employed. Lattitude exists in the 'subjective' interpretation of the world. Why standardisation? Well, then information can be contracted in a standard way since one of the sub-goals of the project is to represent what might be known of another world based upon where you are: this is the hierarchal approach to information exchange in the Imperium, which I feel is extremely important to creating the Imperium itself. Kage
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Post by CELS on Feb 19, 2004 7:53:48 GMT -5
Well, it doesn't look like you've had the time to write up the standardised representation yet, Kage. Would it perhaps be better if someone else had a go, and we could all improve it through discussion, or do you perhaps see yourself finding the time anytime soon?
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 19, 2004 10:55:50 GMT -5
Yes, that would be good. I have ideas, but not the time since I currently start work at 8am in the morning and don't finish until somewhere in the region of 2am the following morning. While this does include some on-line "play-time" as a break for work, I don't have the time to work on this at the moment. It's looking like the end of July before I'm going to have lots of free time spare... Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 19, 2004 14:04:13 GMT -5
I feel I should again point out that any actual, calculated values for the dynamics of a particular planet should be checked using Kepler's laws to ensure we don't end up looking silly when someone points out our fluff inconsistencies...
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 19, 2004 16:43:54 GMT -5
Ah yes, this comment again... Personally I'm keeping a faith that the Guide actually conforms to this. If you wish to calculate this on a given system then feel free. Kage
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