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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 15, 2004 9:54:24 GMT -5
I'm in the midst of trying to create a comprehensive interpretation of the craftworld eldar in the 40k universe. I will be up front and say that, ultimately, it is going to be moderated through an RPG system since that creates the 'backbone' to a consistent interpretation rather than the problems inherent in a purely narrative approach. With that said, the topics that I would like to discuss relate to a number of broad anatomical and physiological questions and while they will involve the pre-evolved form I would prefer it if things did not devolve into a feeding frenzy on whether the eldar evolved from birds or cats! With that in mind I would just at this point like to say that I do not believe that the eldar evolved from birds, nor do they 'lay eggs' as I've seen suggested. While I'm also fairly sure that they did not evolve from 'cats', it would seem that that would be closer to the truth than birds. So the questions: What generalised form did the eldar evolve from? At present an arboreal omnivore of some form seems quite intriguing. Kind of a cross between a non-sessile version of the sloth with combined activity of monkey-like movement types. What characteristics did said proto-eldar have and which might have carried through into current eldar? For example, a number of things that are up for grabs including the increased metabolic rate of the eldar, increased perceptual acuity, etc. To what extent is the modern eldar physiognomy artificial, i.e. through genetic evolution taken as a part of their supposed 'uplifting' of the eldar by the Old Ones/Slann or, alternatively, through subsequent manipulation in their own gene-code?The various combination of the 'features' of the eldar just seem a tad too unbelievable when incorporated together: longevity, enhanced metabolism, psyker potential (yes, I know about the OO one thing here), etc. Taking the human form as a standard, how does the eldar musculoskeletal anatomy vary from that? E.g. if you were describing eldar structural anatomy in relation to humans what would you mention? For example, I'm fairly keen on the fact that, relatively, the eldar have on average an increased phalangeal and metacarpal/tarsal length resulting from their unhindered proto-form. Another one is the presence of a medial sternal ridge tying into enhanced pectoralis-analog functioning in the proto-form (of course, why with subsequent moval away from that motive form the sternal ridge hasn't reduced is entirely dubious!)... Taking the human form as a standard, how does the eldar internal anatomy vary from that? E.g. if you were describing eldar internal anatomy in relation to humans what would you mention? Same thing as above, really. Increased intelligence is something that I see as developing from the whole 'increased fold' thing (as an osteologist I tend to be somewhat 'wishy-washy' in relation to soft tissue information!), or increased cross-linking between the hemispheres (enhanced cortex?) How does current eldar 'technomancy' (read psychic engineering coupled with the technological basis) interfere with the anatomy?For example, the implantation of wraithbone is commonly seen by many in the early childhood of the eldar child as a means of moderating the Waystone "soul recording" system. Given the recent introduction of nanotechnology, it is possible that such 'wraithbone' could be altered so as to support eldar physical health (etc.)? (Think symbiotic nanites which might also explain increased physical reaction speed (i.e. neural sheathing and/or improvement of axonal transmission rates, etc.)... or whatever.) Just some thoughts and questions. I appreciate responses that don't involve "eldar give birth like chickens" etc. Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 15, 2004 10:11:47 GMT -5
It's a strange idea.
While Eldar are clearly capable of more energetic movement than humans are; simultaneously they must have either a more efficient or a slower metabolism to account for their great longevity.
Obviously each of these traits can be improved by technology, but at the same time I don't see the Eldar as being particularly keen on 'modifying' themselves. They seem to have a very personal and sancrosanct (is that the word?) relationship with their physical form.
I would go so far as to suggest that the Eldar evolutionary root would in fact be *more* agile and energetic than our own. I'm thinking of small leaping monkeys rather than a gorilla/chimpanzee-like ancestor.
Also, I would hypothesise that Eldar later development may have taken place in a denser, more closed environment than our own. Rapid reactions, improved senses and agility are more useful than good focusing reflexes and strong musculature in an arboreal environment where much of what there is to see is obscured by trees, for example. Eldar in some publications are depicted with very large pupils, so this seems to reinforce the idea that the Eldar come from a cool, dim environment. Also, this seems to fit with my idea of a Craftworld being a somewhat 'creepy' environment by human judgement, being perhaps uncomfortably cool and poorly-lit. Humans generally find bright blue skies and warm, open sunny spaces to be pleasant and welcoming; I think perhaps to Eldar this may be somewhat unnerving, akin to a human reaction to being stranded on a swelteringly hot desert...
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 15, 2004 17:21:51 GMT -5
Ah, at least one developed reply. I've posted this on three boards - here, Portent and EldarOnline - and have only gotten one response. Kind of lets you know where Portent has gone! While Eldar are clearly capable of more energetic movement than humans are; simultaneously they must have either a more efficient or a slower metabolism to account for their great longevity. That is why I offered up the technomancy in a latter question. The eldar are just a tad 'too good' for a naturally evolved and, possibly, unaugmented form. Obviously each of these traits can be improved by technology, but at the same time I don't see the Eldar as being particularly keen on 'modifying' themselves. I entirely agree with you with regards to the modern craftworld eldar. I'm not entirely sure with regards to the past eldar, however. I would go so far as to suggest that the Eldar evolutionary root would in fact be *more* agile and energetic than our own. I'm thinking of small leaping monkeys rather than a gorilla/chimpanzee-like ancestor. I think we share similar imagery here, hence the arboreal omnivore approach. I didn't want to get too specific, however. The variation of the proto-form from 'monkeys' could, however, be interesting. My zoology is a bit archaic, but might be used to offer internal anatomical variations. Also, I would hypothesise that Eldar later development may have taken place in a denser, more closed environment than our own. If one combines the traditional 'elven' imagery, it would seem reasonable that while the eldar made the descent from the trees to full bipedalism that they did not move out into the plains. Also, this seems to fit with my idea of a Craftworld being a somewhat 'creepy' environment by human judgement, being perhaps uncomfortably cool and poorly-lit. Cool I would go with. But I do not believe that they are necessarily dimly let. Then again I have not yet seen anyone post a developed approach to the eldar craftworlds that maintains consistent imagery. Well, other than me of course... (Simple answer is that I feel that they use a honey-comb approach to the formation of 'domes' and support 'machines'...) While interesting, I'm also very interested in the approach to current eldar physiology... Kage
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Post by Farseer Kythil on Apr 15, 2004 17:56:26 GMT -5
To me, the Eldars physiology can be explained by ‘selective evolution’ i.e. at some point in the past the Eldar decided that it would be more beneficial to ‘modify’ their physiology in order to better adapt or survive the varying environments they undoubtedly encountered during their expansion.
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 16, 2004 5:36:06 GMT -5
That poses the problem(s) that:
For it to have any effect, the timescale must be such that it must have begun way back in the Eldar's prehistory; predating the technological development required to think of such things.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 16, 2004 6:31:18 GMT -5
And now we're getting into parallel issues. If you believe M.v.S.'s timeline, however (and remembering that this is just fan 'fluff' written by one of GWs authors), then the suggestion there is that the eldar expanded originally with the 'magic' they were taught by the Old Ones. Sorcerers opening portals between worlds, etc. Make of that what you will... It is, however, a topic that will rapidly move us off the main topic, as it were... Kage
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Post by zholud on Apr 23, 2004 15:52:07 GMT -5
Faster metabolism does note mean shorter life. Your cells changes on hourly, weekly, annual base and the true reason of ageing is biological mechanism to get rid of older organisms, to improve by newer generations. The eyes of Eldar suggest that they were interested in clear distance measurement. The slender shape is result of lower gravity on prime world and the hot climate lead to lesser loss of energy for heating. Idea is that they may be not hunters simply because ‘trees’ gave enough food. I have wood elves for primitive Eldar as a base. Hotter sun led to nocturnal lifestyle and faster growing food (depends on energy received). Off for another week…:’)
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 25, 2004 3:59:41 GMT -5
Just thought that I would post these thoughts from Portent in this thread: And: And: Any preferred interpretations or integrations?
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Post by zholud on Jun 25, 2004 6:56:44 GMT -5
Kage, what I’d like to see here is vivisection of Eldar by Ordo Xenos guy. Please me one day and we’ll discuss it in detail. OK?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 25, 2004 11:03:07 GMT -5
Please you one day? Pardon...? My plans for this section of the "Eldar Sourcebook" are to have the dry text, some pictures (if I could ever find an artist willing to work to demand and specification! ) and the 'colour text' that you allude to. The specific information should be there, however, not just something that is recorded by a magos biologis...
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Post by Strygaldwyr on Oct 9, 2004 16:41:36 GMT -5
As far as what generalised form the eldar evolved from is concerned I would suggest a lemur type predecessor.
They have good potential for intellectual evolution, graspy hands, capable of bipedal locomotion, binocular vision, superior reflexes/coordination, good visual accuity, social predisposition, omnivorous.
They are also similar enough to apes to explain the obvious similarities between humans and eldar, not sure if people will see that as a plus but...
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 10, 2004 5:33:02 GMT -5
More than reasonable enough comment... I had them pegged as an "arboreal hunter-gatherer/pouncer", but that was about it. No terrestrial analogy was attempted... And I love lemurs! How do you see the proto-form (lemur-type) reflecting in the current physiology of the eldar? I'm talking both musculoskeletal (i.e. I like the idea that eldar cranial sutures tend to fuse in such a way to form trigonocephalic-type skull), and the "icky" soft tissue that I don't know that much about!?
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Post by Strygaldwyr on Oct 12, 2004 8:56:20 GMT -5
Skeletal stuff isn't really my area but the two more obvious ones are the spine and legs. Lemurs have a flexible, cat-like, spinal column and relatively large legs, compared to apes anyway. This would explain the eldar inclination for acrobatics, leaping etc..
As far as soft tissue stuff is concerned there are a few eldar related points. The first is that lemurs do see in colour but have more rods in their proportionally larger eyes. This gives them great visual accuity and superior low light vision.
Secondly it appears that some lemurs, if not all, have variable metabolisms. They are able to enter a state of hibernation if the weather becomes too cold or if food is scarce (not temp dependent) and if it is warm then they can stop using energy for warmth and rely on ambient temperature/sun heat. This would probably also make them imperceptible to thermal vision as used by vipers as they literally mimic cold blooded animals when doing this. Might go some way to explaining eldar longevity too?
Finally some lemurs seem able to subsist on plants with toxins at levels fatal to full grown humans. Including cyanide. Not sure if that could be eldar relevant but thought I'd mention it.
I know we aren't talking about real lemurs as ancestors but thought it might be useful for ideas.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 19, 2004 7:11:17 GMT -5
Skeletal stuff isn't really my area but the two more obvious ones are the spine and legs. Yes, but it is my area, so the whole collaborative issues come into play. Lemurs have a flexible, cat-like, spinal column and relatively large legs... Although not in animals... A quick google reveals not lot... <sigh> Do you know why their spine is more flexible? Ligaments? Smaller vertebral body size relative to the size of the body? The first is that lemurs do see in colour but have more rods in their proportionally larger eyes. This gives them great visual accuity and superior low light vision. Well, this would tie into the suggestin of arboreal environment preference. Secondly it appears that some lemurs, if not all, have variable metabolisms. LOL... don't tell the Space Marine fans! Might go some way to explaining eldar longevity too? Perhaps... the question is whether this was a developed feature and is related to their 'inherent psychic powers' or not? Not sure if that could be eldar relevant but thought I'd mention it. It would reinforce the different biochemistry side of things in a way that is accessible to the majority of people who read the document... I know we aren't talking about real lemurs as ancestors but thought it might be useful for ideas. To be fair, I think that the lemur is an appropriate analogue to the proto-form of the eldar...
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Post by Pudding on Oct 31, 2004 5:27:54 GMT -5
a small problem with the arboreal aspect of this theory; why do Eldar walk upright? i guess i'm assuming Eldar don't have opposable toes, since they wear shoes etc, since the advantage of walking upright is that it allows us to have hands free for tools, which if you've ever seen a monkey, it's an issue in the trees. so there must have been some reason for the Eldar to come out of the trees in order to begin walking upright at some point in time.
also, about babies, a good rule of thumb is that the more complex the organism, the longer the gestation period and the longer it takes to develop its adult morphology. it's perfectly feasible that, given how complex Eldar are, they would evolve a way to give birth early, and allow the child to fully develop out of the womb, so the mother wasn't pregnant for the two or three years you'd expect if you scaled up from a human pregnancy. so perhaps after birth, the Eldar child is totally helpless, and their physical development is far from complete, but they can breate and process food on their own. for the next several years they live in a creche, tended by the various females of the group, while their brains develop and, thus, their skulls grow and fuse etc.
thoughts?
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