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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 26, 2004 3:33:30 GMT -5
One thing that has become increasingly obvious as discussions on personal interpretations of the Guard, etc., have progressed is that there is a lack of foundations. We might talk about 'upper echelons' in reference to the 'staff/flag' of the Guard/Fleet, we have a passing idea of a difference between some types of nobles and others, and of course the idea of specific organisations educating some and not others. Despite this and all that we build upon it, there are no linking features: little structured foundation upon which to solidly build and to integrate the 'fluff' here. So often when you ask a question on the varous forums out there you'll get back an answer which is, essentially, "Well, it varies" or "It depends on the world." Yet the Imperium is still present over the entire, well, Imperium... But in what form? I'm going to advocate my own personal approach since, well, none is really out there, but wonder if anyone has a cohesive concept which isn't "Acts like Tzarist Russia", "It's feudal, kinda" or whose argument is not based upon too much specific knowledge. In other words, take the time to explain it...  Okay, that's a bit random but I'll stop there while I formulate my own view and try to create the same 'cohesive' post as requested above... |
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 26, 2004 22:46:14 GMT -5
I presume you're asking for someone to set out their opinions on the anthropological makeup of the Imperium in a structured manner?
Well, I'm not too sure about that. But I'm sure I can conjure up a few ideas.
The presence of Imperial authority on a particular world depends on the world's importance, balanced with the resources available to the local division of the Adeptus Terra at the time the planet's diplomatic/authoritive needs are surveyed. The nature of the Imperium suggests that the Adeptus Terra is generally only going to be able to find an objective picture of the subtleties of a given world if and when it asks for one. Therefore it will have little idea of what's going on in a clear and structured manner unless it commissions a large scale survey or audit of a world. What I'm getting at here is that while the profile of a world may change dramatically, the Imperium at large operates on a completely different timescale so that frequently the Adeptus presences on various worlds become either inadequate or overkill. Such is the inefficiency of Imperial beaurocracy.
Which leads me to the question: What is required of an Imperial presence?
To summarise, the Adeptus Terra, at least in my view, is partially or wholly responsible for such activities as: Interstellar trade (Imperial Fleet and Chartist Captains), military recruiting (Departmento Munitorum), training and armament, monitoring and control of subversive groups (Adeptus Arbites, the Inquisition), maintenance of spiritual purity (Adeptus Ministorum, Inquisition), assigning and monitoring of local political leaders, monitoring and auditing of the local economy and tithing. This probably isn't an exhaustive list but that isn't really the point.
Now, the structure of the Imperial presence.
The point of contact via official channels to any world is the Office of the Administratum on that particular world. The Administratum will have channels to every local and Imperial department operating in the vicinity and it is their responsibility for ensuring that queries to their operational area are properly conducted. This is not to say that the other departments are subordinate to the Administratum, simply that the Administratum holds the main responsibility for communications, and as such is quite diffuse, having operatives wherever they are required - Administratum clerks in a Munitorum office would be commonplace.
The Imperial Commander naturally has close ties to the Administratum Office, but his responsibility is a dual one - to the Imperium and to his world. Citizenry outside of the Adterra will generally direct communications via the Imperial Commander, whose officials relay the discussion to local or Imperial authorities as appropriate. The Imperial Commander is basically a liaison between the local and Imperial authorities.
The individual in charge of any Office of the Administratum holds the title Prefect. Most offices will work under a Prefect Primus, the highest divisional rank in the Administratum. When none are available, or the situation does not warrant an individual of such standing, Prefecti Secundus or Tertius may be assigned. These levels of command are commonplace within planetary Offices as managers of subdivisions and departments within the planetary organisation.
***That's all I can be bothered with for now. I'll flesh it out a bit more later***
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 27, 2004 1:05:42 GMT -5
Well, thanks for taking the first crack at this Sojourner. That is, for the most part, how I view the Imperium operating. But does the bureaucracy define Imperium culture? Some might say that the adeptus ministorum (i.e. the church) is that link but then this is merely going back to the adeptus terra... While not necessarily appropriate, I cannot help but keep on returning to see the links between the 40k universe and that of Traveller (although it's the differences that are the real killer! )... I based my original 'culture' on Rome, but it is only subsequently that this other universe becomes an obvious source of inspiration. (Or maybe I just had it, inappropriately perhaps, in the back of my mind all the time...) So, what becomes the link between worlds? Shallow and obvious answer is it is the nobility itself through the feudal bonds ( nobless oblige, etc.) that defines this link. Through traditional and access to 'wealth' they extend beyond a given world and draw the Imperium together in that way. A form of social gravity, as it were. Their influence depending upon their power and diminishing over distance... Given the 'fluff' on, say, the view of hiveworld nobility I also advocate the difference between 'Imperial' nobility and the 'provincial' type... this is harder to swallow but I liked the concept when I 'created' it, but not sure entirely on the applicability. E.g. the idea being that a "Roman senator" travelling to Britain remains a senator, while a 'British' king travelling to Rome remains nominally a king but is viewed more as a 'barbarian'. But at what point would this 'nobility-defined' Imperium culture, if one even agrees that it is a viable concept for aiding in the definition of Imperium-culture, be integrated into the adeptus terra and, of course, the other concepts that we're throwing up at the moment? Consider, for example, the difference between access to education between the 'Imperial nobility' and the 'provincial nobility', or is such a distinction false or based purely upon tradition? (One might think of the mechanics of the Great Crusade here and expansion of 'lines' of nobility beyond their origin...) Do Imperial nobles send their children to the same schools as the provincials? Or what about Guard and Fleet structure and the concept of general staff and/or flag? Is there differential access based upon a hierarchy of nobility? (Remembering I tend to split the nobility into three levels of differing importance...) Or is that all just a false concept...? And, if so, what could it be replaced with without too much hand-waving and the reliance upon the 'fluff', and therefore the Imperium, being cohesive without it? The nature of the Imperium suggests that the Adeptus Terra is generally only going to be able to find an objective picture of the subtleties of a given world if and when it asks for one. Therefore it will have little idea of what's going on in a clear and structured manner unless it commissions a large scale survey or audit of a world. Remembering, of course, this is what the UWP system combined with 'standard representations' is meant to partially reflect. |
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 27, 2004 1:35:23 GMT -5
Wait...We're looking at the UWP as something the Imperium has access to?
As for the post in general, I'm not terribly impressed with this concept of 'nobility'. I'm concerned that it implies a universally 'feudal' arrangement within planetary politics, something that I am very sceptical about. There is plenty of room for planetary democracies, meritocracies and so on. I suppose that the term could be applied to those deemed by the body politic to be worthy of/responsible for interplanetary relations, though. More elaboration is needed, I think.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 27, 2004 1:50:10 GMT -5
Thats how it works in the imperium, and it is kept that way by the high lords of terra, who achieve their position through power play, not because they are the best men for the job, it sucks i agree, but that is the frame work on which the imperium seems to be based
I think youv'e got it spot on kage, thats how i see it aswell, it dosen't mean i like it though. Perhaps the ASP could chart a slightly different course than the one GW has set down for us
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 27, 2004 2:06:01 GMT -5
Do you have any evidence whatsoever to qualify this?
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Post by Dazo on Jul 27, 2004 2:24:05 GMT -5
You mean apart from the obvious, that they are in charge, and they havn't done anything to change the situation. No i suppose i don't
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 27, 2004 2:29:54 GMT -5
Wait...We're looking at the UWP as something the Imperium has access to? This is actually a separate topic, but broadly... yes. Not strictly as a 'perfect representation' but more a 'general gist'. The idea here being that different levels of information are handled at different points along an established bureaucratic hierarchy. At the lowest level, a world 'hands over' complete archives of transactions, whatever, of interest to the adeptus terra. This goes up to the 'subsector capital', when then stores and filters the information. This is then sent up to the sector capital... The same thing happens and then it goes to a more important sector... and so on, up to the segmentum fortress and finally to Terra itself. The 'gist' here is that ultimately the UWP is a means of categorisation and swift representation which doesn't actually explain the 'complexity' of the 'Standard Representation', which is itself only a guide to 'life' on that world... I'm concerned that it implies a universally 'feudal' arrangement within planetary politics, something that I am very sceptical about. It is predicated merely upon the idea that 'nobles' and 'feudal bonds' receive frequent mention in the 'fluff'. It in no way excludes non-feudal governments, only implies a difference in the specific interaction with the over-arching system (which is, again, described as feudal). I suppose that the term could be applied to those deemed by the body politic to be worthy of/responsible for interplanetary relations, though. More elaboration is needed, I think. As always. But one must also take into account the history and traditions of the Imperium. Oh yes, and the pesky 'fluff' thing, where possible... Perhaps you would care to either elaborate on the system or suggest something which you feel is more, erm, impressive? |
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 27, 2004 4:14:47 GMT -5
I just don't think mundane communication outside of Imperial channels deserves any formalisation. Communication occurs as and when needs arise between whoever is appropriate - I don't see any need to rationalise it or restrict it to a certain group.
But if you're referring to methodology of communication, which I think you're probably not, the question is worth asking. We have astropathic communication, and communication by 'courier' or as you put it, Imperial Pony Express. I think Astropathic communication would be limited largely to Adeptus Terra use and for those local matters with great importance - requiring a favour from the local Adeptus Astra Telepathica . Courier on the other hand, is accessible to everyone and access mediated largely by the same means as cargo shipping - in this case, messages are cargo and are carried as such. Most commoners might never see the need for interplanetary communication but perhaps more enlightened individuals - academians, journalists, businesspeople - might make use of message couriers occasionally. You might say "It'd be useful to check on what progress the Maerosians are making on x/y/z, I think I'll send a Dictum to 'whoever'." So you write a hardcopy or send an 'e-mail' or whatever to the local courier station and it goes onto the next warp ship to be transmitted or delivered as soon as it arrives.
I'm not sure what else there is to say on this, as I'm pretty much ranting by myself. Need some opposing views to argue with.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 27, 2004 12:38:01 GMT -5
This is getting entirely off-topic in some parts... I just don't think mundane communication outside of Imperial channels deserves any formalisation. Only if you consider that the Astropathic Network is capable of supporting the total communications of the Imperium. I would argue that this is self-evidently a flawed assumption. But if you're referring to methodology of communication, which I think you're probably not, the question is worth asking. Actually, the content of the material predicates the means of communication. The means - or as you put it 'methodology' - is based merely upon the determination (and the interpretation) of the information load of the Astropathic Network. I'm not sure what else there is to say on this, as I'm pretty much ranting by myself. Need some opposing views to argue with. You're not going to get one, entirely, from me. I would point out, however, that this wasn't the point of the thread. An interesting subject but one which, for me, was pretty much determined back in the days... |
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Post by orangesm on Jul 27, 2004 18:08:37 GMT -5
Kage you have asked us to go into the culture of the Imperium, which is defined by its organizations. That is what the Imperium is. However every human has a planet of origin and therefore a culture of origin. The planet could be anything from a barbaric feral world, a highly civilised democratic world, to an ancient hive world where the long ruling industry owning nobility runs things. These worlds would provide people to the various organizations. Naval officers from the hive world, Arbites investigators from the democratic world, and warriors from all. However the Imperium does maintain various Schola on the more civilized worlds and these would help maintain a continous culture in the organizations. Alot of the basic culture behind the Imperium would be one of doing your duty always. In general the Imperium (both in religion and in the work place, but these things intermingle in the Imperium) reforces the basic idea that you are a small cog in the vast machine that is humanity and all is for the Emporer. There are chapels everywhere, prayer is a part of every action. The Imperium seems to be a fairly advanced version of European culture from about 400-1400 AD. I realize that this is a thousand years of human culture, but the of course the Imperium has that wide of a range of cultures. In general the Imperium as a whole is God Emporer fearing, go about my assigned duty in life, and do it the best I can so that the Emporer will reward me with an afterlife when I die. This has kinda been all over the place. Sorry.  |
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 27, 2004 23:42:57 GMT -5
To be honest Kage, I'm not quite sure what you're on about. When you say 'culture' are you meaning 'social structure'/'anthropology'?
If so - Isn't it the very nature of the Imperium that there is no single system and every world is very different?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 27, 2004 23:46:22 GMT -5
I disagree with the time period mainly out of preference for having a slighty more dynamic situation. I've seen too many hashed arguments - and a lot of good ones, to be fair - predicated around pre-Renaissance society... One word: ick! With that said, I was hoping that no-one would post this argument since there's not a great deal against it other than my preference for not defining a culture entirely by it's government... Furthermore there is the complication of local vs. non-local contributions to the adeptus terra, which muddies the situation... No, I find it difficult to apply to the Imperium that the adeptus terra defines the culture rather than being a manifestation of pre-established forms that have homeostatically altered over the millennia. Just knowing the structure of the Imperium does little than let us understand the government. There are too many unanswered questions... |
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Post by orangesm on Jul 28, 2004 18:00:41 GMT -5
Maybe a good historical example (which is really all we have to draw on) is Late Imperial Rome. Not the Rome that everyone thinks of when we say Rome, the Caesarian Rome, but the Rome that was crubbling from the inside and being invaded from without both by those wanting to be members but also by those who wanted to destory it. This example seems intially a little restrictive but is meant to be a description of the Adminstratums culture, one that is caught up in its own 'past glory' and unwilling to recognize the retreats far from Rome. It is lost in its own buecracy slow to react to the changes in the world, while those on the frontier adapt and learn using what they can tyring to get aid from the Imperial Government. (We even have a possible Constantipole in the form of Ultramar, far to the East. ) Yes this is another preRenaissance culture - but it is also per/intial Dark Age culture.
PS: Sorry about any spelling.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 29, 2004 0:43:11 GMT -5
That's actually counter to your example whereby the government defines the culture, a feature which is loaded with problems. Moreso because the government of Rome was, in essence, the nobility once more... One might also consider the origins of the Imperium and how this might reflect on 'culture'... |
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