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Post by zholud on Jul 5, 2004 21:51:18 GMT -5
There is one of my small heresies on the sub-light intersystem travel in wh40k. I think that such thing exists there and is used for transportation of not-urgent but constantly needed large-volume goods, mainly foodstuffs. I’ve calculated quite a long time ago that 100bn strong Necromunda with 80% of recycled food and some coefficients needs weekly over 1 cubic km in volume of foodstuff daily. The warp travel is not good in timing – you may reappear I real space a century after or week before you’d entered the warp – thus for scheduled inflow of foodstuff Hiveworlds are very probable use cheaper sub-light freighters, which leave Argi-world 10 years ago but came to you in precise minute-to-minute schedule. So, what do you think?  |
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Post by CELS on Jul 5, 2004 23:23:43 GMT -5
I think that you should consider the difference between long warp jumps and short (especially calculated) warp jumps. While warp jumps made over long distances often are unreliable, I would stay that shorter jumps are quite reliable. Perhaps some people starve from time to time, but certainly not the rich.
I've just not seen anything at all to suggest that there is sub-light intersystem travel in Warhammer 40,000, and for that reason, I oppose the idea. Sure, sure, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but extending my interpretation of the Imperial technology, I don't see how freighters could have sub-light drives.
The fact that warp travel is so unreliable, just means that you need the ships to make very slow, low-risk jumps, so the food won't be completely fresh when it gets to you, unless the agri-world is very close.
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 6, 2004 0:19:21 GMT -5
To travel sublight inter-system would be impossible anyway, you'd be in deep space for thousands of years.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 6, 2004 1:09:06 GMT -5
Yup... accelerating that much mass to any reasonable degree of c is going to take phenomenal energies, and drive systems with an impulse much greater than anything suggested in the Imperium.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 6, 2004 2:33:08 GMT -5
Then how do they get from their warpdrop to the planet, im not an expert but are not all jump points located a significant distace from planetary bodies.
Sub light engines would be required on all imperial vessels, including freighters, for inter-planitary travel, manouvering thrusters would cirtantly not be up to the job(not interstellar, to my knowledge only necron ships utilise this)
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 6, 2004 3:13:09 GMT -5
The point being that the existence of sublight drive systems for intra-system manoeuvre is an accepted given, but not for interstellar travel. Especially in the bulk volumes and time periods suggested...
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 6, 2004 3:53:57 GMT -5
Please note bad math now follows...
But a ship needs to get to the warp jump point that may be as far away as 100 AU say. At c, the speed of light this would take about 13hrs, 800 minutes or 48000 seconds. In 40k fluff this journey may take as much as a week (168hrs) suggesting that a ship can travel at up or about 1/10th the speed of light. It must therefore be able to carry enough fuel to get the ship up to this speed, and also enough to slow it down when it reaches its destination.
So I guess a journey of 7.5 ly could take 75 yrs, providing you have the fuel to accelerate a 5 million tonne escort to the required speed!!!!
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Post by zholud on Jul 6, 2004 8:09:18 GMT -5
Yup... accelerating that much mass to any reasonable degree of c is going to take phenomenal energies, and drive systems with an impulse much greater than anything suggested in the Imperium. Generally, you make implicit assumption that it order to tear apart the real space to ender the warp (possibly by making small temporary black hole in the process, as in some SF) calls for less energy. I doubt this. On short jumps – if CELS point is valid that no problem with small jumps through warp storms do not post any problem, while they do. And again – see energies for tearing realspace issue. On impossibility – cannot agree, especially in our set where some systems are about 1.3 l.y. apart even with average speed ½ of speed of light you get more or less fast travel in Imperium sense where assassins are 2 centuries late and the fact that world fell to chaos appears in several decades. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 6, 2004 23:58:06 GMT -5
I knew that you would pull out the energy consideration. However, warp drives work on 'weird science'. The sublight drives evidenced in the 40k universe do not have the specific impulse/thrust/whatever to be able to make sublight journeys in the order of centuries... It is less the 'impossibility' per se but the viability. Accelerating a ship of significant enough v-displacement (and m-displacement!) to carry substantial food cargo up to even one-half c is implausible, that is all. Given the Imperium.
It's also a bit of forward planning that doesn't quite work.
If your calculations on food consumption are correct - or even close - then it shows more that hiveworlds are not really viable.
Furthermore, our planets are not 1.3 light years apart and, indeed, I have no idea where you got that figure. The spacing is just a little over one parsec between the centres of 'grid squares' (i.e. 3.34 light years).
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Post by zholud on Jul 7, 2004 0:52:25 GMT -5
I knew that you would pull out the energy consideration. It was pulled out by you, saying about ridiculously high energy expenditures  However, warp drives work on 'weird science'. As well as usual drives may do the point remains – if for 18 millennia people used sub-light, then I guess they developed the stuff. FYI: old fluff said warp drive in M20 and navigator’s gene in M22 IIRC. The fact that we haven’t seen any notions in fluff equals opinion that planes does not exist because there are cars that cannot fly If your calculations on food consumption are correct - or even close - then it shows more that hiveworlds are not really viable. Or that their foodstuff reserve is really great… and recall my point on recycled food – in times w/o food inflow you can survive some time on recycling alone. Furthermore, our planets are not 1.3 light years apart and, indeed, I have no idea where you got that figure. The spacing is just a little over one parsec between the centres of 'grid squares' (i.e. 3.34 light years). I guessed we have coordinates in light years? Am I wrong??? |
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Post by Dazo on Jul 7, 2004 1:36:04 GMT -5
Don't imperial starships use a kind of plasma drive for sub light travel, which should be relativly advanced, since they've used plasma technology for quite some time now
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Post by CELS on Jul 7, 2004 5:32:49 GMT -5
Maybe I've misunderstood. When talking about sub-light travel, I thought you guys meant speeds that are actually close to light-speed, such as one tenth the speed of light. If sub-light travel is anything slower than light speed, then of course the Imperium has well-developed sub-light travel. I'm just saying that the Imperium doesn't have anything close to light-speed. Not one tenth and probably not even one hundredth. As for the whole "there cannot be planes because there are cars that do not fly" argument, I find that a bit silly. That's taking Kage's "evidence of absence" line one step too far. So if the fluff doesn't specifically say that the Imperium doesn't have nanotechnology or true A.I., then we can assume that they have it? Oh, and Dazo, you really do need to check out our introduction thread, and read about that 6th rule. And the 3rd rule. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 7, 2004 13:44:48 GMT -5
Unfortunately we're talking about two different things here. As above, 'warp drives' come under weird science and are something that we must "suspend disbelief" about. Yes, they've got phenomenal energy requirements depending on the size of the vessel (and however energy is linked to size, i.e. volume or mass or whatnot) but you've still got that suspension of disbelief...
Now you're talking about shifting 1km3 of food to a world daily!? Okay, even a lesser value is astounding when you're talking about the ship(s) required to send it, the impulse evidenced in their technology, etc. This level of organisation, technology that is not present elsewhere, etc., still does not seem plausible to me.
That's a given, but doesn't seem particularly valid at this juncture. Or is it being suggested that the entire interstellar (subluminal) 'fleet' extends back to this time? Again, there is little to suggest that the Imperium has this kind of efficient subluminal drive systems (i.e. antimatter pion/thermal/whatever). And, once again, consider the volume that you're talking about.
I cannot help but question whether it is easier to send a large ship through the warp here the average information suggests that it will arrive in a matter of weeks (real-tme), or to develop or maintain hugely efficient sublight drive systems which you don't use elsewhere to send huge quantities of food over a period of centuries (universe time).
Yes, but it's an easy mistake to make. Given that a subsector is defined as a cube of 200 light years a side, then since we have 60 divisions, 200/60 ~ 3.34, or just larger than a parsec.
This is one of the considerations up for debate in the project since it has an obvious impact upon a wide number of features. The "plasma drive" - which we're currently working on the principle it's a fusion drive - is really not efficient enough to do what the above is asking...
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Post by zholud on Jul 7, 2004 21:01:52 GMT -5
Unfortunately we're talking about two different things here. As above, 'warp drives' come under weird science and are something that we must "suspend disbelief" about. Yes, they've got phenomenal energy requirements depending on the size of the vessel (and however energy is linked to size, i.e. volume or mass or whatnot) but you've still got that suspension of disbelief... So, generally it all ends up in “I don’t buy it” idea. There are hints that ships go out of system within hours, thus they have to get 10 g acceleration or more w/o problem. The fact that during manoeuvres during space fight they over much slower does not mean anything – even planes may roll on road like car… at the same time jet fighter is worse than average car on the highway. This does not mean it cannot fly. I say that that 1km 3 of food to a world moved anyway[//u] – the question is by what means?
I don’t say that they are used but that technology may exist. Recall the 1st volume of Eisenhorn trilogy – those hibernation systems stripped from their settler ship – most likely pre-warp travel ship, right? So, other details may exist as well, and is the tech.
Not weeks in the 1st case, but from days to millennia. And not centuries but years in the 2nd case – recall astronomy staff galaxy density is one star per cubic light year – we are (Earth) on the edge, so more than one. Anargo seems much closer to the core, so 1-2 l.y. between stars are feasible.
Don’t you think it is too strange to have stars stuck to such a wide grid?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 8, 2004 0:29:36 GMT -5
Yes, basically it does extend to "I don't buy it". This is, after all, a fictional universe. For me the relative merits of an advanced subluminal distribution network with technologies which do not - or at least do not appear to - extend to other parts of the Imperium compared to an established means of transportation which isn't quite as mercurial as you make out... I'm sorry, for me it doesn't seem to gel. It's like creating yet another new form of superluminal travel merely because your latest race doesn't like the warp (*cough* Necrons/C'tan).
And as to the grid... Yes, it is rather strange. However, it's just an abstraction. I would find it more strange finding two star systems 1 light year apart with the frequency which they are in the project. What must always be remembered was that the original idea was to generate the stars randomly using the 'parsec' and then randomise the position within the 200 light year grid... Unfortunately, this wasn't possible given the time available to the programmers back in the day...
Although perhaps this is the wrong time to be nit-picking over this abstraction? Maybe not overtly the most realistic, but the only way that we could have made it more realistic is to use real star data. E.g. basically take real stars in a cube 200 light years centred on Terra.
Again, though, this is not the place for this discussion especially as the project is beginning to make more significant advancements...
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