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Post by CELS on Jul 9, 2004 0:37:05 GMT -5
The ships may be more numerous but i can see a lot of them having the difference between normal marine numbers per ship being made up by extra serfs. I think all Adeptus Astartes ships have enough serfs and servitors to properly defend their ships, with or without the Space Marines. Of course, with Space Marines, they're pretty much invincible. Except if they're boarded by Chaos Space Marine Terminators, of course  Yep, and that's what the 'fluff' (:  tells us. Hmm, I don't think this really solves anything, I'm afraid  I don't see the problem ships can be captured as well as constructed, a few good boarding actions and few more ships are added to their fleet This definitely doesn't solve anything. First of all, Space Marines use special ships, so they can't just take ships captured by aliens or rebel Navy forces. In fact, if a Navy ship goes rebel and the Frost Bringers capture it, the Navy will be asking for it. Based on the current discussion, I have been reconsidering the value of the Frost Bringers tactic of assaulting enemy ships. Rather than pounding them into submission with massed fire power, they try to take them as prize (take the ship intact). Taking the enemy ship in such a manner may give them the bartering chip that they require with the Adeptus Mechanicus. I realize that, but you can't take ships as a prize unless you have massed fire power as well. A fully operational ship will be able to launch interceptors to take out your thunderhawks and boarding torpedoes, and it will be covered in defense turrets that shoot down anything that gets close. Not to mention that a fully operational ship has a full army intended to fight off your boarding party. In order to take a ship as a prize, you first need to give it a good slapping. Take down its shields, cause some damage. Get the crew to lower their heads, so they're more vulnerable to boarding actions. You need to take down its turrets, if possible. You also need to seperate it from the rest of the enemy fleet, otherwise it will be covered by interceptors from enemy carriers. That's a very good point, I admit. Bugger  Yeah, you're right. But still, I think any captured rebel ships would be given back to the Imperial Navy. It's not like the Adeptus Mechanicus can fake it and just give the Imperial Navy one of their captured ships and claim that it's new. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the Adeptus Mechanicus would consider chaos ships corrupted and worthless, so there goes that salvage. The only thing that remains is alien ships and ships from ancient human civilisations, when that rare opportunity comes. I imagine that space ships are built so that they don't really have specific weak points for breaching actions. Air locks and pressure doors will probably be less armoured than the outer hull, but I imagine that they'll also be well protected by turrets. Hmm, in my opinion, we need to do away with the idea that they disdain planets. It's just a bit silly, considering the origin of humans, and the purpose of space marines (planetary assault, for the most part). Furthermore, they don't dislike planets, they're just embracing the purity of the void, which they believe lets them be closer to the spirit of the Emperor. Staying on a rogue planet is thus fine, as long as it has no atmosphere. Perhaps. I'm not so fond of the idea that the Frost Bringers feel uncomfortable on land though. It's where they should be spending most of their time. That's actually quite a cool idea, but I don't have any problems with the rogue planet. That seems to be the idea Strike Cruiser: Spear of Guilliman, I don't know i would have thought the ultramarines would probably already have a ship by that name, how about the Razorwind. The Razorwind is a good name, I guess, but I like the Spear of Guilliman. Do the Ultramarines actually have a ship by that name? I don't know that they do, so I'll be keeping it, I think. Guilliman is the Primarch of the Frost Bringers same as Ultramarines, after all, so it is most appropriate for them to show homage. Well, first of all, I'm not sure that Invictus Mortis is grammatically correct, and I do try to have good grammar, even in latin. Second of all, Invictus Mortis seems to be the Dead Invincible, which doesn't really strike me as a good name. Invictus is also the name of a famous Ultramarine captain, so we might as well call it the Dead Cassius  Third, Creeping Death is the name of a cool Metallica song, and that's what I named the ship after. Fortitude is too typical for the Imperial Navy. In fact, it's the name of a famous Dictator Class cruiser of the Gothic war. I see the Space Marine ships as having different names. And yes, there's a chapter called Sons of Guilliman, but there's also a ship class called the Exorcist, and there's a Space Marine chapter known as the Exorcists. There's famous Lunar Class cruiser called the Retribution, but that's also the name of a battleship class. There's a famous Lunar class cruiser called the Minotaur, but there's also a Space Marine chapter known as the Minotaurs. Basically, there are only so many cool names for ships, ship classes and space marine chapters, and some names are used twice LoL! A bit too much? Do you think they save all the really cool names for the big ships? "Remember guys, this is just a destroyer, and these can just be named after important politicians and small herbivore mammals" It's a 300 meter long space ship that can destroy an enemy ships from thousands of kilometers away. Phantom Lord doesn't seem too much for me. Besides, this is also a cool Metallica song ;D If Minister can call a ship of Battlefleet Anargo "Shakira", then I can damn well name other ships after Metallica!!  |
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Post by Dazo on Jul 9, 2004 1:33:49 GMT -5
Why not, space marines have entire world resources placed at there disposal, its not beyond the realms of possibility that they would outfit and upgrade any captured ship.
And as for the navy wanting it back, well the rights of salvage still apply in the 41st millenium don't they,
and if an imperial ship turns stag in Hydraphur but then turns up in anargo sector the fleet arn't even going to know its been recaptured by the frostbringers
Well if thats the case the Dead invincible has as much right to ply imperial space as the .....Shakira.....of all the woosy.... and Invincible death would be a kinder way of translating it
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Post by CELS on Jul 9, 2004 1:45:05 GMT -5
Why not, space marines have entire world resources placed at there disposal, its not beyond the realms of possibility that they would outfit and upgrade any captured ship. They still have to follow Imperial law and regulations to a certain degree. They can't just do what they please, as the Horus Heresy is still fresh in the memory of the Imperium. Give the Space Marines too much power, and you see what can happen. Besides, the Space Marines don't have the industry to outfit and upgrade their ships as they please. They need Imperial shipyards or Adeptus Mechanicus forges to do that, and they're all very paranoid. (Cue Kage saying that's in a question if you're paranoid... ) No, they don't. If you get caught with something in your posession that you shouldn't have, the torture-servitors will stuff those rights of salvage up one of your orificises At least, that's my take on it. The Imperial Navy can't risk other organisations suddenly getting a small fleet of their own, because of the rights of salvage. Suddenly, the Ministorum has a new fleet, and weee, it's the Age of Apostasy all over again. Imperial ships are able to identify individual ships, their name and class, apparently. Also, you don't have to be a Brainboy to figure out that a Retribution class battleship in the hands of Frost Bringers probably didn't magically come from a galaxy far, far away, nor did it come from the orks. Astartes ships and Imperial Navy ships are drastically different in design and purpose. |
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Post by Destecado on Jul 9, 2004 4:26:29 GMT -5
Besides, the Space Marines don't have the industry to outfit and upgrade their ships as they please. They need Imperial shipyards or Adeptus Mechanicus forges to do that, and they're all very paranoid. (Cue Kage saying that's in a question if you're paranoid... ) Actully this is not totally true. The Ultramarines' control over the systems that they govern is near absolute. Granted, they way they manage the worlds is more as a republic than as a dictatorship. I think they are allowed to get away with it, because they pretty much keep the eastern fringe of the Imperium secure. Oddly enough, many of the Chapters that are successors of the Ultramarines are also stationed within the Ultima Segmentum. It is somewhat ironic therefore that the Frost Bringers are also not far from Ultramar. Imperial ships are able to identify individual ships, their name and class, apparently. Also, you don't have to be a Brainboy to figure out that a Retribution class battleship in the hands of Frost Bringers probably didn't magically come from a galaxy far, far away, nor did it come from the orks. In the vastness of space, it would not be that difficult to hide one or even a dozen ships. These "recovered" ships would be in the hands of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who would use them for the their exploratory missions. The Adeptus Mechanicus is also a very secretive organization. From the information that appears in the fluff, I don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus let many outsiders onto their forge worlds. Also with their near stranglehold over technology, how many people will want to question them too closely. Case in point, the Necron ships that breached the Mars defenses. After the original reports, little is mentioned. It seems to have been Classified as an Adeptus Mechanicus internal matter. One must also question how much influence the Inquisition has over the actions of the Adeptus Mechanicus. As for the materials received by the Frost Bringers, this does not have to be in the form of ships. receiving Supplies and equipment in the best of situations is difficult. If you can grease the works by trading for something that the Adeptus Mechanicus wants, you might be ensured of a steady supply of the materials that you need. The Chapter may us the captured ships as a bargaining chip to replace lost Thunderhawks, Tanks, Jump Packs or to have their existing ships outfitted with weapons or ordinance that they normally should not have access to. If they do receive ships from the Adeptus Mechanicus, there is no reason that they may not remain hidden from other Imperial Agencies. These special ships could be used as interdictors or in clandestine engagements, far away from the prying eyes of the Imperial Navy. |
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Post by CELS on Jul 9, 2004 5:04:44 GMT -5
Actully this is not totally true. The Ultramarines' control over the systems that they govern is near absolute. Granted, they way they manage the worlds is more as a republic than as a dictatorship. I think they are allowed to get away with it, because they pretty much keep the eastern fringe of the Imperium secure. But didn't we already agree that Ultramar is a special case? Very few Space Marine chapters are in that position, and it's pretty clear that the Frost Bringers are not either. Sorry, but I don't quite see your point. How is this ironic? That's what I argued before. Granted, you don't want the ships just hiding in the vastness of space, but you could use the extra ships on missions where you are certain that no friendly ships will appear. Such as when you do a surprise attack on the enemy. Of course, there might be incidents where some people are at the wrong place at the wrong time, and this could be the background for some interesting colour text. Another point that I have already made, yes. But whether or not the Adeptus Mechanicus can use the recovered ships, depends on the nature of the ships. Like Kage has pointed out, Eldar and human systems can't easily be integrated, so you can't just put some tech priests in an Eldar vessel and assume they're good to go. As for ex-Navy vessels, I don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus would dare using those for their own missions. Too much trouble if they get caught, and you never know when an Imperial Navy deep space patrol is out and about. True, but what's your point? That the Adeptus Mechanicus can secretly build ships that they're not supposed to build? Yes, that's why I've argued that the Frost Bringers can have a bigger fleet than they're supposed to. As for the Inquisition... it depends. If some Tech Priests have fallen to Chaos and are corrupting a forgeworld, the Inquisition will react and exert its authority. Usually though, I imagine that the Inquisition leaves the Adeptus Mechanicus well alone, as long as they don't have a very good reason to do otherwise. That's true, but we are discussing ships at the moment, and Space Marines are already getting as many tanks, bolters and thunderhawks as they need, I think. I think we should be careful taking all this too far, and suggesting that the Frost Bringers have much better equipment than any other chapter, they have two companies with Terminator armour, they have jump packs as standard equipment, etc. We don't want to be cheesy From the fluff, it also seems as if the Inquisition keeps a vigilant eye on the Space Marines. They can only get away with so much, I imagine. I agree, but they would have to be used very carefully. |
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Post by Destecado on Jul 9, 2004 6:21:58 GMT -5
That's what I argued before. Granted, you don't want the ships just hiding in the vastness of space, but you could use the extra ships on missions where you are certain that no friendly ships will appear. Such as when you do a surprise attack on the enemy. Of course, there might be incidents where some people are at the wrong place at the wrong time, and this could be the background for some interesting colour text. In deed it would make for an interesting story or scenario. It is also possible to change the recognition codes for a ship or even to change it slightly so that it does not correspond to the original hull configuration. In these ways, they could perhaps obscure the origins of the ship. If I remember correctly it was mentioned that there were reports of phantom ships or unknow ships sighted in one or more of the sectors. Some of these might be explained by unregistered ships of the Frost Bringers chapter on clandestine missions. Another point that I have already made, yes. But whether or not the Adeptus Mechanicus can use the recovered ships, depends on the nature of the ships. Like Kage has pointed out, Eldar and human systems can't easily be integrated, so you can't just put some tech priests in an Eldar vessel and assume they're good to go. As for ex-Navy vessels, I don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus would dare using those for their own missions. Too much trouble if they get caught, and you never know when an Imperial Navy deep space patrol is out and about. As before, the ships can be refit and changed enough so that they do not resemble the original ship. The ships don't have to be used as one whole piece anyway. Components (weapons, engines, etc.) could be removed to be used elsewhere. For imperial ships, they might be able to recycle the hull for use in laying down a "new" ship (similar to a stolen car chop shop in some respects). I also think that the Adeptus Mechanicus would love to lay their hands on an eldar ship. true they might not be able to use it for producing an explorer ship, but they might be able to gleen information from the ship that could improve imperial technology or decipher weak points in the design that could be exploited by Imperial forces. True, but what's your point? That the Adeptus Mechanicus can secretly build ships that they're not supposed to build? Yes, that's why I've argued that the Frost Bringers can have a bigger fleet than they're supposed to. the ships need not be used here in the Anargo Sector. There are vast portions of wirlderness space that lay outside of the control of the Imperium. Who is to say that the Adeptus Mechanicus is not making fleets to investigate these unexplored areas of space ahead of any other Imperial incursion. They could have colonies or forge worlds set up in wirlderness space that the Imperium is not even aware of. Another thought is the production of ships in Anargo could be used to suppliment the production or shortfalls on other Forgeworlds. The Forgeworlds close to the Eye of Terror must be overtaxed with orders for ships and equipment. The call probably goes out to other forge worlds to help supply these hot spots. In a case like this, would it not be easier to refit and rearm an existing ship rather than make a ship completely from scratch. Keeping up with demand also stops people from asking questions. If the supplies are slow in coming, people might begin to investigate what the hold up is, which could lead to investigation of the Adeptus Mechanicus. If they receive their supplies and replacement ships in a timely manner, they will be less likely to ask questions. That's true, but we are discussing ships at the moment, and Space Marines are already getting as many tanks, bolters and thunderhawks as they need, I think. I think we should be careful taking all this too far, and suggesting that the Frost Bringers have much better equipment than any other chapter, they have two companies with Terminator armour, they have jump packs as standard equipment, etc. We don't want to be cheesy I'm not saying that they receive better equipment than other chapters. What I am saying is that logistically, it is difficult to keep a Chapter supplied. Look at the world today. It is difficult for the United States to keep the Marines in Iraq supplied and they are only on the other side of the globe. There are also a finite number of resources available at a given time. You could have the Imperial Navy competing with the Chapter to have their ships refit. All things being equal, the Marines might have to wait their turn. By offering the Adeptus Mechanicus something that stacks the deck in their favor, they might get their ships into the repair docks before the Imperials ships. replacement of losses also factor heavily into such a situation. Based on the manner in which the Frost Bringers attack, they may take heavy losses in Marines and Material. Thee are probably normal quotas that the Adeptus Mechanicus must fill to maintain their requirements to the chapter, but if losses exceed these required numbers of replacements, there has to be some reason why the Adeptus Mechanicus will go over and above their quota. In this case they are receiving ships or other material to offset the additional output to replace the losses of the Chapter. |
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Post by Dazo on Nov 13, 2004 5:33:46 GMT -5
Is there any plans to codify/condense/summerise all of this information, or has that been done and I've just missed it EDIT Ok I found that aswell, why do we have so many different threads, someone should tidy them all up |
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Post by Zidagar Dinoman on Dec 16, 2004 16:15:33 GMT -5
I've been playing Dawn of War with the Frost Bringers for quite a while now, so I figured I'b better post some pictures of them in action. The color scheme is different from Kage's version, but I think mine is much simpler and gives the chapter a "colder" look.    More Pictures are avalible at my photobucket site: photobucket.com/albums/v316/zidagardinoman/Anargo%20Sector%20Project/ |
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Post by CELS on Dec 16, 2004 16:20:23 GMT -5
Yep, this looks good. Except for the badge, which I never liked. I just know I'd get abused if I showed up at the local club with those ;D
To be honest though, I'd agree to mostly anything to see the Frost Bringers finished at the moment.
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Post by Zidagar Dinoman on Dec 16, 2004 16:46:37 GMT -5
I know no one likes the badge but me. As soon as I hear a definate answer on what the official badge will be, I'll get my resident artist to cook me up a DoW badge and banner.
To anyone that cares: the Sky Pirates are all but finished, so my next 40k army will be none other than the Frost Bringers themselves. I'm putting the finishing touches on the first 5 test models now, so look for picts soon.
My ideas for the chapter (and this is more in the realm of wargaming forum, so I won't be long) is to use the Cleanse and Purfiy trait along with another advantage that I have not decided upon, with the Aspire to Glory and perhaps the Death Before Dishonor disadvangates.
The basic army framework will be a squad of scouts infiltrating, then calling in a massive Drop Pod Assault. I can't wait.
-ZD
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Post by CELS on Dec 18, 2004 7:51:34 GMT -5
Slightly OffT here, but what the heck.. ZD, how do you get pictures on the badges and banners of Space Marines in Dawn of War?
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tells us.
Third, Creeping Death is the name of a cool Metallica song, and that's what I named the ship after.
