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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 27, 2003 11:15:57 GMT -5
I've created this thread for a number of reasons, not least of which was to complete the threads discussing the Fleet triad created by GW. I also thought that it would be useful to hash out and discuss the many concepts about the Civil Fleet, i.e. the numbers, the size of vessels, etc. At the moment I am currently working on the following principles which are themselves guided by concepts laid down as part of an initial conversion of the 40k universe to GURPS (i.e. it is RPG focussed and therefore might suffer some limitations/problems in terms of integration into the limited wargame material)... Firstly, the classis civiles is larger than either the Merchant ( classis mercatorious) and Military ( classis militares) Fleets in terms of the numbers of ships. However, ships of the Civilian Fleet are (normally) dramatically smaller than those of the Military and Merchant Fleets. At the moment I'm working on the fact that a ship of about 5,000 displacement tons (~100m in length) is the smallest ship of sustaining a Warp drive. Thus the ships of the Civil Fleet even in their larger numbers would have a proportionately smaller cargo capacity. Again, this is on average... (As a point of interest, one RPG-spawned ship of the above dimensions ended up costing M$450... a significant expense in the 40k universe!) Secondly, the Civil Fleet is restricted from 'bearing arms', at least in significant form. This is restricted to the Military and Merchant Fleets. As such the concept of 'convoys' is more telling and, indeed, entirely within the concept created by the idea of "Guilds". This might be a separate concept and it might not... Thirdly, the Civil Fleet is also limited by the concept of 'temporary charters' when engaged in trade. That is to say that charters must be applied for through adeptus administratum offices on given worlds and, if awarded, serve to limit the time that a ship is authorised to be engaged in interstellar trade. (How would this function? How expensive would these be and, indeed, how rare?) Fourthly, the cost of even the smallest ships tend to mean that private ownership is rare and, rather, they are useful primarily to 'guilds'... Erm... Okay, that's enough for now. Comments on the functioning of the classis civiles is, as always, welcome. Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 28, 2003 12:21:49 GMT -5
Are we working on the principle that interstellar travel is regulated?
If so, would such activity be limited to passenger-carrying, officially sanctioned organisations?
I would suggest that a standard method of regulating personal travel would involve carriage of a token of some kind, like the Macharian Medals bought by pilgrims on the macharian crusade route.
These tokens must be obtained from an Administratum office, or possibly a Guild headquarters with close monitoring by either the Administratum or the Inquisition, or probably both.
Regarding other tasks for civilian vessels:
Are there any? does the Classis Civiles include only passenger transport vessels and leave all other non-military action to the Mercatorious?
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 28, 2003 18:24:15 GMT -5
Are we working on the principle that interstellar travel is regulated? It depends on how you want to use the term 'regulation', but the answer would be 'yes'. If so, would such activity be limited to passenger-carrying, officially sanctioned organisations? Which activity? What do you term 'sanctioned organisations'? If by this term you mean 'Imperial organisations' than the answer is no... If you mean anyone that has a registered ship then the answer would be yes. I would suggest that a standard method of regulating personal travel would involve carriage of a token of some kind, like the Macharian Medals bought by pilgrims on the macharian crusade route. Unfortunately as a new part of the 'fluff' I cannot comment on this, so could you provide more information? Furthermore the only 'regulation' of personal travel would be the ability to acquire passage (i.e. financial, passage availability, etc.) and state intervention, both on the local and Imperial front. These tokens must be obtained from an Administratum office, or possibly a Guild headquarters with close monitoring by either the Administratum or the Inquisition, or probably both. Emmigration or immigration would be a function of local governments moderated (observed) by the Imperium. This allows for both 'open borders' (on one or two ends) and the early post-medieval approach in England (where movement was moderated by ability to financially sustain oneself) and so on. Are there any? does the Classis Civiles include only passenger transport vessels and leave all other non-military action to the Mercatorious? No. The Merchant Fleet is involved, as stated elsewhere, in tithe redistribution. The function of the Civil Fleet is variable and includes both 'trade', 'transport' and 'private' activity amongst others. Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 29, 2003 13:59:12 GMT -5
RE the Macharian Medals;
In the old Codex Imperial Guard there's a blurb about Macharius, in which it is stated there is a Pilgrimage along his old crusade route. To get on a ship following this route, one must present a medal which one can only purchase from a Ministorum office on Macharia. Naturally there will be strict background checks on anyone buying one...
I was thinking, as civilian travel in the Imperium seems to be rare, this is possibly the system used everywhere.
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Activity being that of the Fleet. Imperial organisations being...non-private.
Ah. I think I see the confusion. I see in general terms the ownership of a personal, warp-capable transport to be *extremely* rare, and probably limited to members of the Ministorum or Administratum. Note that in general I refer to passenger rather than personal transport, that is, civilian individuals seeking passage on a chartered ship. To use a real-world analogy, travel on a ship rather than in a car.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 30, 2003 6:55:14 GMT -5
I'll handle these points separately but they ultimately come down to one single point of interpretation: the rarity of 'civilian' transport. I would argue that there is a significant problem in the 40k 'fluff' in that it concentrates almost solely on the wargame. I consider civilian transport to be far more common than many suppose and, indeed, civilian ships to be far more common. RE the Macharian Medals...To get on a ship following this route, one must present a medal which one can only purchase from a Ministorum office on Macharia. Naturally there will be strict background checks on anyone buying one... That addresses a point of pilgrimage in which the financial and/or social status does not necessarily translate to the true costs and difficulties of travel. I'm not sure what you're asking here. Activity being that of the Fleet. Imperial organisations being...non-private. How you applied them was the point of confusion. There was a wide lattitude in interpretation and I felt that it would be useful to clear up those terms...  Ah. I think I see the confusion. I see in general terms the ownership of a personal, warp-capable transport to be *extremely* rare, and probably limited to members of the Ministorum or Administratum. I disagree. The 'fluff' is clear that private ownership is possible (the very concept of the Civil Fleet), though rare for single-ownership. The concept of guilds etc. is predicated upon this fact. I do not see guilds operating by renting space on the ships of the Merchant Fleet. If for no other reason than RPG purposes 'private' ownership is a necessary part of a dynamic universe. It just makes things more interest. In terms of 'limits', take a look at the costs of the smallest ship capable of warp-travel, at least for me. ~$450,000,000 where '$' is the basic unit of currency, whatever that might be. It would be hard for a single individual to have this kind of fluid assets so rare for single ownership. Groups of individuals bandying together for a defined purpose, however... now that becomes more plausible. The first post basically summarises the stance, however. Kage |
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Post by zholud on Jan 1, 2004 2:40:07 GMT -5
I guess we should start with the purpose and function of the civil fleet. In old Space Fleet article by J.J. which is the primary reference material for Kage, I assume, those vessels are in reality true merchant ships which don’t re-distribute tithe but rather trade small rare items for the ruling elite only. This could be works of art, alien tech akin to Spryer suits, drugs, illegal information. Moreover, we should clarify: - Are those ships use Navigators or are they calculated jumps, or personal favorite, sub-light travel.
- Are they allowed to go beyond sub-sector or sector or Segmentum? I prefer severe limitation of them, with goods exchanging hands more than one time on their route.
- Are they really that small? I prefer 250 meters or so for average ship with plus minus 20% as limits.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2004 4:22:01 GMT -5
While I would say that they are in terms of total tonnage 'small', I do not think that they are in anyway restricted to the 'elite'. Sub light travel is untenable for the Civil Fleet, so no. The primary method is through calculated jump though Guilds (which are Civil) can purchase the contract of a Navigator hence leading to the concept of 'convoys'. Civil ships remain registered both in terms of segmentum and sector. It is not permissible for a ship of the segmentum to move beyond these borders without official sanction by segmentum authorities. Application on the smaller scale to the sector is problematic and, as a result, I would personally suggest that for engagement in merchant activity the temporary charter with its 'temporal' feature would act as a direct limitation on distance travelled, effectively binding ships to a sector or 'subsector string'. For 'Imperial trade', yes. This would be the case since, from the above, most trade would be limited to 'subsector chains'. It is important to note, however, that Civil Ships would retain a sector registration (linked to the segmentum registration, the latter of which is also a boundary to travel without further authorisation). While 'trade' would be limited to temporary charters, movement of civil ships outside of the realms of 'trade' would be less restricted. But, then again, as defined above the chances of non-trade initiated Civil activity is rare. The ~100m limit (note I actually put it as 5,000 displacement tons or ~67,500m^3) is a minimum limit on the size of a ship with a warp drive. Obviously the dimensions are a function of the shape of the ship! Offering a minimal ship size is more useful than trying to define an average and upper and lower size limits. Kage |
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Post by zholud on Jan 1, 2004 10:17:02 GMT -5
While I would say that they are in terms of total tonnage 'small', I do not think that they are in anyway restricted to the 'elite'. My impression that small civil ships cannot transport commodities for masses, unlike the merchant vessels with has average cost per tonne-kilometre much lower. The latter transport e.g. wheat or equivalent that consumed by everyone, while civils transports exotic fruit for maybe large, but still limited group of more or less wealthy, which can be 10,000 persons per world… Civil ships remain registered both in terms of segmentum and sector. It is not permissible for a ship of the segmentum to move beyond these borders without official sanction by segmentum authorities. Application on the smaller scale to the sector is problematic and, as a result, I would personally suggest that for engagement in merchant activity the temporary charter with its 'temporal' feature would act as a direct limitation on distance travelled, effectively binding ships to a sector or 'subsector string'. Maybe limiting them to sector and creation of terminal stations at boards is a good idea… seems you are suggesting the same |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2004 12:17:06 GMT -5
My impression that small civil ships cannot transport commodities for masses, unlike the merchant vessels with has average cost per tonne-kilometre much lower. The latter transport e.g. wheat or equivalent that consumed by everyone, while civils transports exotic fruit for maybe large, but still limited group of more or less wealthy, which can be 10,000 persons per world… I agree with this, but personally avoid the term 'elite' since it precludes the interest groups which might be, well, interested in acquiring non-local resources. Furthermore, one must not preclude 'wheat' - or whatever - being transported to a world, though there would be little profit in it if it is along an established Merchanter route. (I also seem to recall that there are laws against this...) Maybe limiting them to sector and creation of terminal stations at boards is a good idea… seems you are suggesting the same I'm saying that registration is sector-based, but limit on travel is segmentum-based. In terms of trade, the nature of the temporary charters limits movement more than any real territorial restriction. Kage |
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Post by zholud on Feb 5, 2004 15:57:30 GMT -5
Just a little thought which I got re-reading this thread: the ships can be constructed in such a way that they are served only on specific number of dock whether it is repair or refueling. This prevent them from moving too far much better than any charter or medal may ever do.  |
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Post by malika on Feb 5, 2004 16:05:46 GMT -5
Hmm...this thread is making me think about tourism in the Imperium.
Are there companies in the imperium? I mean free companies, who arent owned by the Imperial government? Might be funny to see travel agencies and stuff in the Imperium.
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Post by zholud on Feb 5, 2004 16:17:11 GMT -5
Hmm...this thread is making me think about tourism in the Imperium. Are there companies in the imperium? I mean free companies, who arent owned by the Imperial government? Might be funny to see travel agencies and stuff in the Imperium. There are certainly free companies. Even the ‘Imperial bodies’ often have them. Something akin to socialism way in Yugoslavia in 1950s... private business is welcomed if it is small. And each factory works with artificial but market nevertheless. As to tourist agencies I would say that they exist only for wealthy, only on civilized worlds or above and limited by in-sector travel and pilgrimage monitored by Ecclesiarchy. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 7, 2004 9:07:01 GMT -5
Just a little thought which I got re-reading this thread: the ships can be constructed in such a way that they are served only on specific number of dock whether it is repair or refueling. This prevent them from moving too far much better than any charter or medal may ever do. Sounds a bit difficult to me and also creates a too restrictive system. There is little chance of violation of any form of charter, which would allow 'piracy' and 'smuggling'... Best to leave it as an obligation rather than a necessity. It is a darned good idea. Implications of the TL system are that there is only one required compoonent that must be repaired at an adeptus mechanicus franchise: the warp drive. All other components can be repaired at other 'high-tech' worlds. If a specific world franchise was written into not the temporary charter but the specific obligations of registration, then this would operate to limit extended travel without being too restrictive in terms of generic reapirs, which should be able to take place on ship and other 'emergency ports'... Again, the analogy would be roughly to the Age of Sail... And, of course, there are para-legal and illegal means to circumvent this. Kage |
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