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Post by malika on Jun 16, 2004 23:20:49 GMT -5
Maybe you should see the planet as some southern European country, nice climate, fancy beaches and all the recourses for tourism.
But the planet also survives on agri-culture and a very small industry, but mostly agri-cultural world, with lots and lots of tourism.
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Post by zholud on Jun 19, 2004 2:43:37 GMT -5
The 'another hiveworld' sounds interesting, but would it actually be powerful enough to rival Meksum in terms of economical influence? I mean, Anargo is already threatened by Meksum- do we want a third world in all of this? If you want analogue – another Hiveworld is equal to Prussia in the 1860s, while Meksum is the Great Britain. The latter had the economy five times larger and navy six times larger. At the same time in small European wars of that time Prussia was the king, while Britain wasn’t worried much – too small and too far. They were interested in colonies and similar stuff, like railroad boom. The The 'dead hiveworld'... I take it the Imperium has no idea that the world is uninhabitable thanks to Chaos, since they would immediately exterminate the planet if that was the case. Suffer not the unclean to live. Imperium knows that all attempts to re-settle the world have failed. The world does not equip chaos fleets or creates warp signature – so even if it is warp ( or Chaos) affected – Inquisition has more urgent matters to settle down. The The 'Paradise/ vacations planet' (which would be labelled Garden world by the Imperium) is very, very interesting! I hope someone jumps on this planet fast! Of course, we need to be careful with this planet. Perfectly habitable planets are hard to come by, and I don't think the Imperium would allow an entire planet that might be used for all kinds of mining, agri-culture, industry and Imperial Guard recruiting to be a vacation spot for the wealthy, unless they had a very good reason. I'm very hopeful about this world though, and I look forward to discussing it. Generally there were mentions on Paradise worlds in 40k, for example in 2nd ed Sisters of Battle Codex, as well as some planet in Eye of Terror campaign. Assume they don’t have much resources and the frequent warp storms make it unreliable as an Agriworld (if a crops transport is half year late – the hive to which it supplies grain is dead…). Again look at Caribbean – why don’t they start agriculture and heavy industry? Are they governments stupid or what’s up? And note – even Inquisitors want to rest sometimes, so the world has a lot of defenders
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Post by CELS on Jun 19, 2004 3:22:23 GMT -5
If you want analogue – another Hiveworld is equal to Prussia in the 1860s, while Meksum is the Great Britain. The latter had the economy five times larger and navy six times larger. At the same time in small European wars of that time Prussia was the king, while Britain wasn’t worried much – too small and too far. They were interested in colonies and similar stuff, like railroad boom. Forgive me, but my knowledge of history is too poor to understand your analogue. I don't know anything about Prussia in the 1860's. Perhaps you could explain it without the use of an analogue? It sounds like this new hiveworld wouldn't be any economical threat to Meksum though. Just because it doesn't equip chaos fleets, doesn't mean that the Inquisition will happily ignore the planet, being content that the corruption is contained. If you let a chaos cult run free on a world for a long time, you risk warp gates opening, and daemons flooding out. Agri-worlds can produce other things than grain. It can produce lumber, or cotton, or other materials that aren't ruined by short delays. *grin* But you can't really compare it that way, because the Imperium is too different from present Earth. Do you think the percentage of people going on vacations is the same in the USA as on Meksum? Generally, I think only very few citizens in the Imperium can afford travelling to other systems during vacations. The trip doesn't have to be too expensive, but remember that warp travel takes time, and you need a pretty fast ship to take you to a distant star and back again when you've only got a couple of weeks of vacation. Besides, I do not believe all the countries in the Caribbean have tourism as almost their entire income.
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Post by zholud on Jun 20, 2004 1:21:49 GMT -5
Forgive me, but my knowledge of history is too poor to understand your analogue. I don't know anything about Prussia in the 1860's. Perhaps you could explain it without the use of an analogue? It sounds like this new hiveworld wouldn't be any economical threat to Meksum though. Yes, it won’t be anytime soon, but 40k operates by thousands of years… the idea is that new Hiveworld is aggressive both in its trade practices and even military actions. For example it blackmailed the mining world hierarchy, so it started to sale extracted materials to this Hiveworld even despite there are other destinations that can be more profitable. The governor has even own small army which exerts power, occupying nearby system worlds. The Inquisition closes an eye on this because the worlds now give more output that this is just what is needed. They don’t really care that people are press-ganged to mines, etc. I don’t want to overplay its power of course, those are minor skirmishes in comparison with IG actions. Just because it doesn't equip chaos fleets, doesn't mean that the Inquisition will happily ignore the planet, being content that the corruption is contained. If you let a chaos cult run free on a world for a long time, you risk warp gates opening, and daemons flooding out. They haven’t got mentions of daemons for millennia. They declared the planet off limits/perdita and left the secret for future. Think about warp-virus as unsuccessful experiment of father Nurgle, which has no idea how to spread it further. Mistakes of Gods is cool idea per se and can be developed. Agri-worlds can produce other things than grain. It can produce lumber, or cotton, or other materials that aren't ruined by short delays. If the hive/factory/civilised world hasn’t received cotton/lumber/etc, its industries stopped, world is unable to get necessary level of output and pay tithes. *grin* But you can't really compare it that way, because the Imperium is too different from present Earth. Do you think the percentage of people going on vacations is the same in the USA as on Meksum? No, it is even less than number of US citizens who made around the world trip. But our sector has population of trillions (10E12 or twelve zeros) so if even 0.00001% has been able to travel, you’ll get millions. Besides, I do not believe all the countries in the Caribbean have tourism as almost their entire income. But some did, and do. Like Cuba that was used by the US as a island-wide borthel. And exported sugar cane and cigars.
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Post by CELS on Jun 20, 2004 3:53:09 GMT -5
Yes, it won’t be anytime soon, but 40k operates by thousands of years… the idea is that new Hiveworld is aggressive both in its trade practices and even military actions. For example it blackmailed the mining world hierarchy, so it started to sale extracted materials to this Hiveworld even despite there are other destinations that can be more profitable. The governor has even own small army which exerts power, occupying nearby system worlds. The Inquisition closes an eye on this because the worlds now give more output that this is just what is needed. They don’t really care that people are press-ganged to mines, etc. I don’t want to overplay its power of course, those are minor skirmishes in comparison with IG actions. Well, this is interesting, except that I'm not sure about the Commander actually occupying nearby worlds, even in the same system. This is exactly the stuff that the Ordo Hereticus and Adeptus Arbites stop as soon as they are aware of it happening. Press-ganging is cool, and though many within the Inquisition would raise an eyebrow, equally many would probably ignore it. It's actually attacking and conquering the domain of another Commander that is dangerous business. Yeah, the idea has great potential, but we need to be careful not to make it sound like the Inquisition was actually aware of the chaos taint and just left it alone. Unless of course it was some conspiracy by some radicals within the Inquisition, who kept information secret from their puritan members. That would be cool ;D That would only happen if you assume that the hive/factory/civilised world was dependant on the resources from this unreliable world. They wouldn't have to be. And I consider the following situation equally undesirable! <Secretary to big company executive:> "Mr. Johnson, sir. We just received a transmission concerning from our sales department. Apparently, half of the employees are stuck on their vacation world. They will be back in about 2 - 200 years." That's a good point. I'm not actually against the concept of garden worlds. It's just that some worlds are too valuable to be used as garden worlds, in my opinion. And I don't think it's a good idea to make the garden world caught within some everlasting warp disturbance either From what I understand, sugar was Cuba's main industry since the 19th century, making it something of an 'agri-world' in 40k terms This is something I imagine would be common for most earth-like garden worlds. Their main industry is tourism, but they're still dependent on other industry as well, and I guess agri-culture would be a fairly common way of meeting Imperial tithes. It would also be interesting to see garden worlds that did not have an earth-like enviroment, for tourists who want to see something new and exciting, like Zidagar kinda suggested in the Salina thread.
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Post by zholud on Jun 21, 2004 3:09:28 GMT -5
Well, this is interesting, except that I'm not sure about the Commander actually occupying nearby worlds, even in the same system. And in nearby systems as well. This is exactly the stuff that the Ordo Hereticus and Adeptus Arbites stop as soon as they are aware of it happening. Unless the attacker is able to persuade that his actions are for the better of Imperium. By higher tithes for example. I’m fascinated to do clusters instead of worlds, where nominally independent governors are in reality much closer that it is usually expected. I completely understand your point on overpowering certain worlds, but I agree to have heavy AA and Inquisition presence here… Yeah, the idea has great potential, but we need to be careful not to make it sound like the Inquisition was actually aware of the chaos taint and just left it alone. As I said they have more urgent business to do. They use ‘let sleep dog lay’ proverb and they don’t touch the planet. For the mysterious plague – no one has been sick with it for millennia, so why care too much about it?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 22, 2004 1:42:44 GMT -5
...I’m fascinated to do clusters instead of worlds, where nominally independent governors are in reality much closer that it is usually expected. AFAIK this was one of the points with the ASP in the first place, i.e. the idea that many subsectors were based on pre-Great Crusade 'micro-empires' and, as such, it is possible that familial and political ties exist between worlds. Furthermore, we already have the economic ones and it seems reasonable logical to have that translate into the other realms... Furthermore, are the worlds really independent? I like to think of them as interdependent, but there we go...
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Post by CELS on Jun 22, 2004 1:53:14 GMT -5
Well, I can appreciate the concept of the remains of a micro-empire still having a close connection. In fact, it's quite interesting. I was just worried about the idea of an Imperial Commander actually taking control of worlds in other systems, officially. The Inquisition has been rather touchy about that sort of thing since the Horus Heresy. But you know that
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 22, 2004 3:25:22 GMT -5
Officially taking control of worlds? That would be a no-no, I would imagine. It should be maintained as a separate fiefdom of the Imperium. Of course, like the Cinchare system, they can be economically linked without the specific presence of an Imperial Commander thereby being unofficially contained within the 'fief' of the originating system.
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Post by zholud on Jun 22, 2004 4:21:07 GMT -5
Furthermore, are the worlds really independent? I like to think of them as interdependent, but there we go... I second this idea. As on official/unofficial – it’s all semantics. The occupation of Iraq is called peacekeeping operation after all I was thinking about puppet-dictators ruled from the other Hiveworld.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 22, 2004 4:25:51 GMT -5
I was thinking about puppet-dictators ruled from the other Hiveworld. Extended family will do that as well, i.e. if the Imperial Commander of the 'other' hiveworld is a passive and direct descendent of the 'main' one. This is not something that I see as improbable and, indeed, is more problematic in my interpretation of Imperial Commanders than it is with the canonical version (where, in essence, anything goes).
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Post by zholud on Jun 24, 2004 23:36:40 GMT -5
Extended family will do that as well, i.e. if the Imperial Commander of the 'other' hiveworld is a passive and direct descendent of the 'main' one. I can see both variants, each has advantages and disadvantages. ‘royal’ families is the way to go if both planets are legally aristocratic with the right of birth (or it is called blood in English?). More “democratic” regime may prefer brute force first and subtle intrigue later. The main point remains, there are closely related worlds which should be seen as a single system.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 25, 2004 3:11:02 GMT -5
Although, as above, I have the same problem of this as CELS. Canonically the universe of 40k is extremely compartmentalised. Why would the adeptus terra permit an Imperial Commander to gather more and more resources together in such a manner? They would begin to acquire a disproportionate amount of 'power' and 'influence', surely?
I like the concept of Imperial Commanders attempting to increase their sphere of influence. Indeed, that is somewhat obvious given my posts elsewhere... but care must be taken. 'Bootstrapping' a world is fine, but if it develops a sustained and advanced infrastructure... That's not something that I would see the Imperium allowing to continue as an integrated entity with the originating world.
Hmmmn...
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Post by zholud on Jun 25, 2004 7:27:25 GMT -5
Although, as above, I have the same problem of this as CELS. Canonically the universe of 40k is extremely compartmentalised. Why would the adeptus terra permit an Imperial Commander to gather more and more resources together in such a manner? They would begin to acquire a disproportionate amount of 'power' and 'influence', surely? I share the great secret with you – I also have the same problem of this as CELS and you, Kage … but I just think that more resources is too strong and vague at the same time phrase… if I severely limit troops, so even a small barge with IG we wipe the floor with them. Now they pay greater tithes and Adepti Terra are gelled … the world’s expansion is very slow, but it is expansion nevertheless. Now they produce more, pay more and are first to submit guys to IG and personal Inquisitionary teams.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 25, 2004 11:08:34 GMT -5
The canonical compartmentalisation is a partial answer to what you're looking for, something seen throughout Imperial history and the ordinati imperialis.
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