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Post by CELS on Mar 17, 2005 9:32:11 GMT -5
Here's a thread to talk specifically about Iron Men, Golden Men and Stone Men. As Philip says, our interpretation of 40k history is going to have a big impact on the project (obviously), so it'll be useful to sort things out. With that said, keep in mind that Kage has already made his mind up about the Golden men and the question of psykers. There's always the chance that he'll change his mind in the future, but it's often a good idea to work with the assumption that he won't. Personally, I tend to agree with Kage and Zholud on this matter. I don't see the Golden Men as psykers. If I'm not mistaken, GW suggests that psykers are becoming increasingly common as the years go by. It seems to be their idea of human evolution in 40k. There's also the increasing frequency of pariahs, but that's an aside, unless you want to be really silly and say that the Stone Men were pariahs and the Golden Men were psykers I also see no reason to come up with new theories that the Iron Men were servitors or genetically engineered warriors with bionic implants or whatever. As far as I'm concerned, the fluff is quite clear that the Iron Men were robots. They are clearly identified in First & Only by Dan Abnett, and this is 'canon' in my book.
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Post by Philip on Mar 17, 2005 10:13:59 GMT -5
Iron-men. As for looking like robot, I would go with that In the other thread I said I prefer a sleek machine shell rather than a Borg like/ servator appearance).
The servitor reference was to the fact that robots in 40K have cortex bio-brain. As I said in the other post, old style robots where patterned after animals, and titans ware patterned after wolves and bears.
The Iron-Men may have been patterned after humans.
The idea I had was that the robot didn’t just pop into existence, they may have evolved. into there final form (though it doesn’t rule out them popping in existence)
Golden-Men The Psyker reference was based on the idea than in early human history there where shaman (who were Psykers) who understood and could use their powers. Early Psykers if you will. Once the Emperor was made from the essence of many dead Shaman, the best and brightest shaman I might add, those who remain may not have been as powerful or even Psykers at all. But they where decedents from the society that produced the Shaman.
It could be that the lack of guidance after the death of the greatest the Shaman (mostly likely the leader and advisors) that control of the Psyker power was lost, and became a bit of a liability over time, and as the population expanded they Psyker gene where diluted with more and more non-Psykers (idea take from the Navigator fluff, that a mixture of a navigator and a normal result in a normal, new navigator can only come from a navigator-navigator union).
So this human population starts of ‘Golden’ and slowly devolves into the Stone-Men. Golden could be a reference to ‘halos’ I know the emperor has one, and in our own history great leader in the Christian religion or those who where ‘divine’ would be depicted with a halo. Or is could be an aura or general feeling of ‘goodness’ when in their presence.
I’m not saying that the Golden-Men are all Psykers, after the loss of the Shaman it may be that the true Psykers where removed from the gene-pool or greatly diminished. The idea is that the Golden-Men still clung to the ideas and knowledge handed down to them from the Shaman times, and they still had a feeling of the divine.
This is not to say they are religious and that all religious people are divine – hence Golden-Men (some great tragedies and wars have been fought in the name of god), more anyone who is ‘good of heart’ strong willed and want to make a better life through hard work and helping others are ‘golden’. This attitude was the remnants of their past history, remnants that slowly are replaced by the superficial ideals of the Stone-Men.
‘Golden-Men’ sounds warm and friendly, angelic, visionary and inspiring.
‘Stone-Men’ sounds cold and harsh, dead eyes, jaded and bitter, practical.
They are the same people, the same DNA, just a different manifestation of a societies self image and ideals.
With the loss of the divine, this society slowly losses its spark and becomes like ‘stone’. Perhaps the last of the golden-men spirit is used up in conquering the stars and then there are so many ‘Stone-Men’ (remember the navigator analogy) that there are no Golden-men left.
It only takes one Golden-men to inspire many Stone-men, but when the last of the Golden is gone, and there is no visionary for the Stone-Men to fix onto, the society stagnates.
Philip
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Post by CELS on Mar 17, 2005 12:05:25 GMT -5
I'll have to check with the First & Only when I get home. I don't remember the Iron Men being described as sleek. Maybe it was just my imagination, but I envisioned something like the rusty robot from the Judge Dredd movie. Hmm... looks kinda like Necrons, now that I think about it. This sounds like a job for... conspiracy theorists! ;D Anyway. I guess there's not much I can say about the Golden Men. There's really limited fluff on them, and based on what I've read, it seems likely that they're just homo sapiens. If they were psykers, I believe Keeper Cripias would have spoken of them differently, and I believe it would have influenced human civilisation and psychology. To me, the Shamans were a small and secretive people, not a vast galaxyspanning civilisation. That I can agree with.
I'll continue this discussion when I've returned home and re-read the fluff in question
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Post by Philip on Mar 17, 2005 13:20:35 GMT -5
Hammerstein! I like that Robot. Yep a military type could defiantly look like that, the sleeker designs for ‘civilian’ use, I think Hammerstein would be a bit much as a PA, mind you he’d make a good body guard (not that a civilian would need on during the DAoT). Hammerstein does have many human characteristics for a ‘robot’, and even shows feeling like loyalty and righteousness. It seems possible that he is a cortex based robot – and if I remember in one story they all turn to chaos and rebel against the Empire (very 40K). I think Hammerstein was the last to fall under the influence of chaos and the blood moon. If they were psykers, I believe Keeper Cripias would have spoken of them differently, and I believe it would have influenced human civilisation and psychology. He did, he called the ‘Golden-Men’. As for influence I think they did, but I’ll say it again they are not full blown Psykers, think of them as more visionary in nature. The warp influence would be exhibited in their will to affect change, and change is something that Chaos very much likes. Think of them as ‘Chaos controlled’, the radicals, the free thinkers of their time. To me, the Shamans were a small and secretive people, not a vast galaxyspanning civilisation. Totally agree with that! The Shamans were in Earth’s pre-history, in our modern world the ‘Golden-Men’ would be very few and far between (Ghandi, Jesus, Buddah, etc.), by the time the DAoT rolls around; even less, and now in 40K hardly any if at all (err, one: The Emperor). SpeculationI think the emergent Psykers aren’t new ‘Golden-Men’ they are, or seem too Chaotic in nature as if their powers are unbalanced, and they lack the special warp power type that is attributed to the the Emperor, the positive power he is supposed to wield (positive, healing etc a counter to chaos’ destructive side). The Emperor is the personification of the Golden-Man’s ideals, and was specifically made to counter the chaos gods or more accurately the negative emotions of man (the Stone-Men). All this ties in with the idea of faith in the Emperor: in difficult times, faith negates the bad emotions and denies Chaos its ‘dinner’. It only takes one man to inspire many, or a whole galaxy (Jesus form a historical point of view has had a lasting effect, and brings comfort to those who believe, but also many wars have been fought over god – much like the Imperium now). What I’m thinking is that the Golden-Men gene has breed out, in the same way that the Navigator gene would disappear if they mixed with the rest of society. This would mean many people could be ‘carriers’ of a single gene and few would be full on Psykers. (I actually imagine the genes to be a cluster of gene rather than a single gene, to account for various powers, also it could have completely breed out one side - say if it where attached to mitochondrial DNA). Example: Much like sickle cell, you can carry it and be unaffected, but a person with a pair of sickle cell genes would develop sickle cell. Now what it the warp travel in the DAoT brought warp matter back into the materium, and this higher ambient/ background warp level set of a single gene? ie even a carrier could suddenly become Psykers, but as they are only ‘one gene’ or rather incomplete gene set based Psykers, they are unbalanced (hence the difference in the Emperor type of power being ‘positive’ and the Psyker’s being negative and uncontrolled). It would mean that current 40K Psykers are actually the opposite of the Golden men, and the Pariah’s may be another expression of this. It could be one half in Psyker boosting, one Psyker deadening - combined they make ‘Golden-Men’ or the basics of Golden-men civilization: one ‘Golden-Man’ leading a nation of mostly Stone-Men – In the same way the Emperor is the leader of the Imperium and also the shinning light of the Imperium inspiring humanity to fight on) Psykers have the boosting set Paraihs have the deadening set Alpha’s have both, but lack control and understanding. Seems to hit most of the fluff bases, but the implications for humanity are dire. Maybe they Emperor had a plan to remake the Golden-Men in the same way Navigators are ‘artificial’. Maybe he was going to use the advanced science of the Stone-Men to extract the various strands of DNA that make up the Golden-Men, it would also suggest that technically this would make the Primarchs ‘Golden-Men’ and in the case of Sanguinius he hit the nail on the head. Perhaps the Primarchs were a tester, a portent of what was to come - but we all know how that went.
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Post by Destecado on Mar 17, 2005 18:11:20 GMT -5
I've posted some of this in the thread on the Adeptus Mechanicus (as I thought that it related to the topic) but I shall post it here again with some additional information.
Let me begin by saying that I have seen no reference in the fluff that indicates that the golden Race alludes to a race of psykers or warp sensative individuals. From the description provided, the golden race seems to refer to those born of Terra, the cradel of humanity.
Cripias' journal is being written from a time when Earth is reffered to as Holy Terra, due to its association as the birth place of the emperor and the seat of power for his great emire. Is it not possible to infer then that the the race which sprang up from this world (Holy Terra) would not share somewhat in the glory bestowed upon it by the emperor...thus being named the golden race?
Race in general could be a misnomer. I had originally taken it to mean that the Stone Race was a distinct subspecies of humanity. Further consideration about the time frame necessary for such speciation to occur has made me reconsider my original conclusion. Race as it is used to denote the differences between the golden Race and the Stone Race may be nothing more than the arbitrary characterisitcs used to distinquish one group of people from another.
These arbitrary assingments of race have been based off of skin color, religion, ethnicity, etc. It is possible that with the terraforming of Mars and its subsiquent habitation, a new distinquishing characteristic had emerged for dividing people up into groups...planet of origin.
Until the Terraforming of Mars, most people would probably still consider themselves children of earth. People may live in a space habitat, but such an artificial construct may not draw the distinction as living on a seperate planet. Space habitats revolve around and are therefore reliant on a parent planet. Even the moon is but a satellite of earth. Mars however, is a distinct entity. It is not beholding to earth (directly) for its orbit and therefore is considered "other" or distinct from earth.
Cripias's journal speaks of great miracles of technology being wrought by the Stone Race. In tose early days, what would be a greater miracle than the terraforming of an entire planet?
The concept of the Stone Men actually has some intersting parallels with greek mythology. In this case, I am refering to the mytholgy of the Greek god of the fire (and patron god of all craftsmen) Hephaestus.
Hephaestus is also known as lame god (he was born weak and crippled). One version of the myth states that he was thrown into the sea from Mount Olympus by his mother Hera because she was diplease with his ugliness. Craching into the sea broke his legs making him a cripple. Another version says Zeus threw him from Mount Olympus after Hephaestus had sided with his mother (Hera) in a quarrel.
Whichever legend you go by though, Hephaestus finally makes his way to the island of Lemnos. It was is on Lemnos that he builds his palace and his forges under a volcano.
Similarities to the weakness of the Stone Race compared to that of the Golden Race are similar to Hephaestus as compared to the other gods. His expulsion from Mount Olympus mirrors in some way the departure of those who would become the Stone Race from "Holy Terra" to sail arcoss the sea of space to another world, where they would create their great forges.
Hephaestus is also created with creating the Automatoi...mechanical simulacrums of animals and people, not to dissimilar to the concept of the Iron Men.
THE AUTOMATOI
The Hippoi Kabeiroi- A pair of fire-breathing horses which Hephaistos cast out of bronze for his sons, the two gods known as Kabeiroi.
The Kaukasian Eagle - A giant eagle cast out of bronze by Hephaistos to torture the chained Titan Prometheus.
The Keledones Khryseiai - Singing maidens sculpted out of gold by Hephaistos for the first mythic shrine of Apollon at Delphoi.
The Khalkotauroi - two fire-breathing bulls scupted out of bronze by Hephaistos for Aeetes King of Kolkhis. One of the hero Jason's labours was to rope these beasts to a ploughshare and sow a field with magical dragon's teeth.
The Kourai Khryseai - A pair of beautiful golden maidens which Hephaistos sculpted out of gold to attend him in his own household.
Kuon Khryseos & Kuon Argyreos - A pair of watchdogs one crafted out of gold and the other out of silver by Hephaistos for the palace of King Alkinous of the Phaiakians.
Talos - A giant sculpted out of bronze by Hephaistos and presented to Europa Queen of Krete as a wedding present. The giant patrolled the island of Krete protecting it against pirates . The Tripodes Khryseoi - A set of twenty wheeled tripods crafted by Hephaistos out of gold for the feasts in the Olympian gods. They were endowed with self-animation and wheeled themselves in and out of the halls of the gods as they were required.
I've lthe Automatoi mostly to show that Hephaestus crafted some of them for purposes other than war and to show the miriad of shapes that similar Iron Men could come in.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 17, 2005 19:42:05 GMT -5
Golden Men as Psykers I will not repeat myself on this matter. Not only is there little 'fluff' to suggest it but nigh on every single person who responds is against it. Enough Philip! It might fit in with all your other little (well, major) revisions, but not necessarily the 'fluff' or other peoples consideration here.
Enough. No more. Thus sayeth the law.
Psykers, Time and the "Psyker Gene" The implication is that the Shaman were the psykers, or at least the only ones that mattered. The Age of Strife was at least partially caused by the simultaneous emergence of psykers across the galaxy. While this does not preclude pre-Age of Strife psykers it does kind of smack of a speciation event. Thus all the rest is unnecessary.
Servitors, Intelligence and Patterning after 'Animals' The 'fluff' tended, IIRC, to suggest that they had the kind of 'personlity' of an animal, not that they were patterned after them. There is not a bear brain in the centre of a titan cogitator. It seems just as, if not more, likely that this is a matter of complexity of programming. Heck, even psychometry works rather than introducing what I would consider a spurious reference.
Evolution of Robots That 'ole idea is reasonable, although taking it to extremes is not the best way to go.
On Stone Men Why restrict Golden Men to Earth and Stone Men to psykers? Consider what Kripias was writing, whom he might have been writing for and the reasons that he was writing... Basic history, when it comes down to it.
(Not saying that you're not doing that Destecado, but just you are offering Greek myths in your posts, I offer merely a different way of looking at things...)
Once again, just in case it was missed...
The Golden Men are not psykers!
Kage
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Post by Zholud on Mar 18, 2005 4:44:28 GMT -5
I’m still cannot understand, with my knowledge of both fluff and meta-fluff, why people think that stone men where men at the first place. After all, people agree that iron men are robots, and not just a race from Earth, Mars, Alpha Centauri, etc. As far as fluff goes stone men are computers (silicone chips), like Philip’s Artilects. How many doubt that computers, including self aware ones were used during the DAOT? And the fact that there was conflict between men and machine that was one of the reasons for the Age of Strife. There we should maybe move to meta-fluff. As many are aware, early 40k was greatly influenced by Herbert’s Dune. Most likely because there was a suitable environment for gameplay, namely close combat in far future. Thus they almost openly borrowed Dune’s attitude to machines and anti-computer revolt as well. It is the one depicted as battle between stone and gold – self aware machines vs. mankind.
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Post by Destecado on Mar 18, 2005 11:11:44 GMT -5
Sorry Kage, the information on Hephaestus was meant as an annecdotal reference to point out parallels, not meant as an actual theory of the stone men.
Zholud, I am still going to have to disagree with you as to the nature of the Stone Men. Certain portions of Cripias's account just don't hold with the stone men being simply computers. Cripias makes reference of the Stone Races' physical inferiority to the Men of the Golden Race. Another distinctin that Cripias makes is that, "the Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anthema to any true Man."
So are you saying that the Stone Men were machines with souls? I do not disagree that there were slef aware machine intelligences that existed during the Dark Age of Technology, but I question your beleif that these Machine Intelligences were the Stone Men.
I don't deny this fact either, though I do question the manner of the conflict between the Stone Men and the Iron Men. You have mentioned the conflict as paralelling the Butlerian Jihad as alluded to in the original Dune Sagas backstory and as detailed in a recent preguel trilogy (by Brian Herbert).
For those that have not read the Dune saga or do not know what the Butlerian Jihad is....
The Butlerian Jihad is a turning point in the back-story of the Dune universe. Thinking machines are created and are first used to serve man, but later begin to enslave mankind. The Butlerian Jihad is a war between these thinking machines and mankind.
To relegate the war between the Stone Men and Iron Men as just a copy of the Butlerian Jihad is to do the fluff a disservice. Cripias' journal states that the Iron Men made war on the Stone Men. It makes no reference to them also making war on the Golden Race.
Must it always be man against machine, with robots and thinking machines acting as the adversaries of man? Is it not plausible that the Iron Men may not have been allied with the Golden Men against the Stone race? Both were under the subjugation of the Stone Race, both would have greivances and old scores to settle.
The Age of Strife owed much to the destruction of the central authority of the Stone Race. If we look at the fall of the Soviet Union as an example, once the central authority of russia collapsed the former soviet republics began to go their own ways. Old rivalries and animosities that had been suppressed under the soviet System flared up (Wars in the Balkans). Distinct ethnic groups began to push for their onw national identities and homelands (Chechnia).
Some planets would fair better than others in this slow disintigration of central authority. Those that had access to the weapons of the Stone Men might begin to turn them on their neighbors. thus war would erupt across the galaxy as each world or government fought for their pice of the Stone Race's fallen empire.
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Post by Zholud on Mar 18, 2005 13:16:03 GMT -5
First of all two short pieces from Dune’s books, just to show the similarity between 40k and Herbert’s universe in mood for the past The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines. Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed.
It was a time of sorceresses whose powers were real. The measure of them is seen in the fact they never boasted how they grasped the firebrand.
Then came the Butlerian Jihad -- two generations of chaos. The god of machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised:
"Man may not be replaced."
Those two generations of violence were a thalamic pause for all humankind. Men looked at their gods and their rituals and saw that both were filled with that most terrible of all equations: fear over ambition.
Now to the message. Zholud, I am still going to have to disagree with you as to the nature of the Stone Men. Certain portions of Cripias's account just don't hold with the stone men being simply computers. Cripias makes reference of the Stone Races' physical inferiority to the Men of the Golden Race. If you’re able to get hands on Dark Imperium short stories anthology – read Ancient History by Andy Chambers – the man who writes fluff in WD and codices as well… on p.212 there is variant of Golden-Stone-Iron conflict. I’ll quote a few sentences with my highlights. once long ago Man lived on just one island … he soon found the oceans too deep and cold for him to get far… – clear allusions to the Earth and sub-light travel. Taking into consideration that whole Sol system is relatively close, the island most likely means the system. because he could not bear the cold of the ocean deeps, he fashioned Men of Stone to go in his place, and the Men of Stone fashioned Men of Steel to become their hands and eyes. Thus the Stone Men were artificially created. They are direct extension of the current day computers taken to the extreme. They are minds without bodies. Thus they create manipulators known as robots. Firstly robots were just an extension, but later their actions become more complicated. Similar thing has happened with computers. Earlier there were central computer and terminals. Terminal become more and more complicated and finished as PC that survives autonomically. So are you saying that the Stone Men were machines with souls? They were self aware, most likely to a level to be able to interact with warp. After all in line with the fluff even trees and animals interact with it. I’m not set whether they had analogue to emotions but most likely no. thus no animal-type souls. To relegate the war between the Stone Men and Iron Men as just a copy of the Butlerian Jihad is to do the fluff a disservice. Not a copy but extension. Must it always be man against machine, with robots and thinking machines acting as the adversaries of man? Is it not plausible that the Iron Men may not have been allied with the Golden Men against the Stone race? They did. The Age of Strife owed much to the destruction of the central authority of the Stone Race. If we look at the fall of the Soviet Union as an example, once the central authority of russia collapsed the former soviet republics began to go their own ways. I a person that lived there at that time, I’d say it’s not that simple.
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Post by Destecado on Mar 18, 2005 14:12:32 GMT -5
If you’re able to get hands on Dark Imperium short stories anthology – read Ancient History by Andy Chambers – the man who writes fluff in WD and codices as well… on p.212 there is variant of Golden-Stone-Iron conflict. I’ll quote a few sentences with my highlights. once long ago Man lived on just one island … he soon found the oceans too deep and cold for him to get far… – clear allusions to the Earth and sub-light travel. Taking into consideration that whole Sol system is relatively close, the island most likely means the system. because he could not bear the cold of the ocean deeps, he fashioned Men of Stone to go in his place, and the Men of Stone fashioned Men of Steel to become their hands and eyes. Thus the Stone Men were artificially created. They are direct extension of the current day computers taken to the extreme. They are minds without bodies. Thus they create manipulators known as robots. Firstly robots were just an extension, but later their actions become more complicated. Similar thing has happened with computers. Earlier there were central computer and terminals. Terminal become more and more complicated and finished as PC that survives autonomically. I've just bought a copy of the book through ebay and will read through the material once it arrives. As to youfr quote from the book... because he could not bear the cold of the ocean deeps, he fashioned Men of Stone to go in his place, and the Men of Stone fashioned Men of Steel to become their hands and eyes....I don't see how this states that the men of stone were machines or even Artificial Intelligences. It could just as easily mean that the Golden race genetically engineered humans that would be able to better stand up to the riggors of space travel. they may have been cyborgs or had artificial enhancements to aid in their work. Men of Stone fashioning Men of Steel to become their hands and eyes, need not mean that they were without bodies themselves. Even today, we routinely send probes to other planets which act as our eyes and hands. Protocols would need to be in place for exploring new planets. Although a world might appear earth-like after a cursory servey, a more in depth examination might reveal pathogens or other substances or aorganisms that would be harmful to human life. Sending in Iron Men to survey the world first would only make good sense. They were self aware, most likely to a level to be able to interact with warp. After all in line with the fluff even trees and animals interact with it. I’m not set whether they had analogue to emotions but most likely no. thus no animal-type souls. I'll have to reserve judgment on this till I have a chance to read the entire story. I a person that lived there at that time, I’d say it’s not that simple. Of course its not that simple. Entire books have been devoted to exploring the fall of the soviet union and its aftermath. We would need to start a completely new forum dedicated solely to the Age of Strife and even then we might be able to cover about a thimblefull of the intricacies of that era.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 18, 2005 14:25:02 GMT -5
Now we've got multiple historical sources and all the problems that creates! And all the freedom, as well... Why is there a need to keep on creating all these races when the first thing to do is to look at the source and question the validity? From there create a "minimum effort" situation and only as a last recourse go to creating new 'fluff'. Remember the point is to create something that is suitable for all editions and not just make it up for the sake of it... Otherwise we get into the problems seen in other threads. You know the ones. Kage
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Post by Zholud on Mar 19, 2005 7:46:10 GMT -5
Now we've got multiple historical sources and all the problems that creates! I guess that both stories were created by the same man – Andy Chambers. I’m not 100% sure but it seems quite likely. Therefore they are not rivals but compliments to each other. Especially if you notice they haven’t contradicted each other.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 19, 2005 9:03:30 GMT -5
That's not what I'm saying or said, and I would like to think that it is self-evident that is the case. Of course, since there is confusion then it is not self-evident! In 40k terms, just because the same real person wrote the piece in question doesn't mean that they were written by the same fictional person. There can be - may be - a huge difference in the context of the pieces, from different authors to different time periods, etc. You see them as complimentary. Great! I offer only a way of looking at it that is not so... simplistic. If it makes sense without that, then perhaps fine. It all sounds pretty... basic to me. But what would I know. Kage
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Post by Philip on Mar 19, 2005 9:31:27 GMT -5
I understood it the first time and I’m not disagreeing with you, if you read my post you’ll see that I am not suggesting that the Golden-Men are Psykers. As for influence I think they did, but I’ll say it again they are not full blown Psykers, think of them as more visionary in nature. The warp influence would be exhibited in their will to affect change, and change is something that Chaos very much likes. Think of them as ‘Chaos controlled’, the radicals, the free thinkers of their time. It’s a little more complicated than that. The Shamans who made the Emperor where ‘Psykers’ of a sort but unlike the current 40K Psykers. They did have an understanding of the warp and the ability to combine their spirits collectively after death to form the being that would become the Emperor. This suggest that they had great knowledge and power in the ways of the warp (they even foresaw the rise of Chaos and is the reason for the creation of the Emperor in the first place – the only time I have ever heard of these abilities is in regard to the Eldar.) The fluff says ‘patterned’, cortex seems to be related to robots, but seem appropriate for any ‘bio-computer’. The fluff says all complex computer function are cortex based (biological), Gav said this is what the Ad-Mec refer to when they talk of a machine-spirit, it relates to the personality and will of the ‘cortex’. The Ad-Mec see everything in ‘machine’ terms even biological life form are no more than another type of machine to the Ad-mec. I agree, I think robots/ Iron-Men where an advanced version of the current servitors, a more fully converted to machine form and using a human like mind architecture for the cortex (though the Iron-men may have actually had human brains and not an artificial cortex at all – or a mixture of both).
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Post by Philip on Mar 19, 2005 9:32:02 GMT -5
Summery Pre-History Here be Psykers! Well Shaman at least leading tribes regulated by religious beliefs based around spirits. The oldest religion I can think of is ‘VooDoo’ which is 8,000 years old so fits in roughly with the time line.
Voodoo unlike the Hollywood’s negative depiction as some kind of devil worship, Voodoo is actually a peaceful religion with very few ‘evil’ spirit, evil spirits are never worshiped but instead are appeased with offering (basically a spiritual bully extorting the people). The majority of the spirits are neutral or positive and all aspects of life are governed by these spirits. This seems to tie in rather well with the whole idea of 40K Pre-History, though I am reluctant to use a real world religion as the archetype (just in case I get it wrong) it seems after researching the subject it is a good fit, but only if the spirits in the warp are mostly ‘neutral or good’.
Golden-Men
No Psykers
Society formed from the descendants of the Pre-History societies and still retain much of their culture and ideals. Thought the early religion changes and in warped, the core beliefs in ‘spirits’ remain and does the idea of individual power.
The Golden-Man era is applied in retrospect by 40K historians (Keeper Cripias) in the same way ‘Celt’ or ‘Iron-Age’ is applied. The distinguishing features of the Golden-Man age is the creation of unified nations, ruled by powerful individuals such a Kings and Emperors who hold all the power. In this society is very much individuals in charge supported by extended families. Though very individualistic, society as a whole is very close knit and cohesive built on strong emotional bonds.
With the lost of the true Shaman, these societies also loose much understanding of human nature, and now that thoughts can be hidden (no one can read minds) fear blossoms in the humans heart. This means that in these societies the ruling classes have to impose their will on the masses – but usually by leading by example.
Golden-Man era rulers lead from the front, in battle the leader is in the thick of it with his men (Alexander the great), inventers are individuals.
Those who do not comply or disagree are executed.
Stone-Man The Stone-Man era is a name given in the same fashion as the Golden-Man tag. The distinguishing of this era is co-operation and collective decision making (democracy). The defining moment of the birth of true Stone-Man is the development of ranged weapons. In this era leaders no longer lead from the front as fire-arm make it instant suicide, generals command troops from the relative safety of the back (out of range). The fire-arms are a ‘great equaliser’ (quote from American history – forget who said it) in personal conflict, being physically powerful no longer means you will always win in a confrontation, and standing up front means you will loose.
Being a big powerful warrior is actually a liability in mechanised combat, the two World Wars remove much of the ‘cream of the Crop’ of many societies.
First ‘prototype’ example of Stone-man thinking would be the Roman Empire, though it is very much a mix, it can be seen that the leaders do not lead from the front, and even a form of collective representation (senate) blinks in and out of existence.
In modern society, the leaders are those who own corporations, those with true wealth, yet the majority of the people have never heard of them. The leaders in this society are disconnected from the whole and do not mix it with those under their power or owe any allegiance to their workers.
Corporations do not act like nations, but they independent cross boarder entities. They must abide by the nations law so they aren’t the ultimate form of power, but they wield indirect power. The dynamics of this society is complex and functions because of complex rules and systems are observed by individuals.
Inventors are co-operative, working together to create even greater inventions than ever thought possible.
Those that do not comply with the system are alienated and excluded, those that try to exercise individual power not in accordance with the system are punished (criminals), but slowly this turns to the idea of ‘correcting’ defective minds via drug therapy and surgery to enforce compliance.
This ‘correcting’ philosophy expands and leads to the creation/ evolution of the Iron-Men, cloning and mind wiping (to stop humans rights becoming an issue). The Iron-Men evolve over time, and eventually leads to ‘cortex’ development.
Overview Golden Men sow the seeds of their own destruction first with the creation of the Emperor (removing wisdom from the tribe) then with the creation of fire-arms (long bows started it). I guess the golden-men didn’t have enough faith in their subordinates, who would eventually rise up as the Stone-Men.
Obviously this is all very complicated and it can get even more complex as I’m tying it into real world history and event, I’m 40King out history. As it is basically a description of human history it should be compatible with all editions (all being derived from human history).
I would be interested in what people think of this.
Philip.
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