|
Post by CELS on Nov 3, 2004 11:19:39 GMT -5
Here's an attempt to solve the problem of multiple topics within a single thread. In the Astropath thread, Kage and Philip started discussing space hulks, and I thought I'd reply here.
I'd have to agree with Kage, that space hulks only rarely have active Geller fields. Space hulks are not only intact ships that have been thrown of course (with the crew dying of hunger or old age). I would argue that space hulks are just as often (if not more often) made from ships that have been destroyed in the warp- typically by a collapsing Geller fied. This is why the really big space hulks are often compromised from the wreckage of many different ships, merged together.
The fact that ships actually meet in the warp and merge together suggests that they are found in the same 'depth' of the warp.
I must admit that I've never really thought about it, but here's an idea. Maybe ships have to go to a considerable depth in the warp to go really fast. At this depth, they would be torn to bits if the Geller field collapsed. Should the Geller field collapse at a lower depth, for example right beneath the surface of the physical realm, then the ship could remain relatively intact. Extremely easy for daemons and other nasties to show up in, but intact nonetheless.
What say ye?
|
|
|
Post by malika on Nov 3, 2004 13:42:17 GMT -5
Arent Space Hulks also possibly inhabited? Orks, Genestealers, and other Cults and/or Xenos. They would probably have for example a small space station or a space ship, and then just try to merge other space ships/asteroids to it, connecting them with the resources they have.
It could also be a fleet of refugees who just connected all their ships together into some sort of space station? Didnt the Eldar do something similar with their Craftworlds, merging ships together with the Wraithbone shaped by the Bonesingers.
The whole Warp thing is also a possibility, I personally see both of these things happening, if it is an inhabited Space Hulk.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Nov 3, 2004 15:52:37 GMT -5
Genestealers tend to inhabit space hulks in Ultima Segmentum, yes, but then again Tyranids and their kind are usually quite resistant to Chaos, it seems. I don't know if Genestealers can be corrupted by Chaos if they don't have a direct contact with the Hive Mind.
Orks also inhabit some space hulks, although it is more than possible that these have a Geller field protecting at least the inhabited part of the hulks. And of course, it is entirely possible that orks that stay in hulks without Geller fields for too long, get corrupted. Chaos orks.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Nov 3, 2004 16:37:19 GMT -5
The idea of Hulks in the warp is all very interesting; at the moment I have two ideas.
The first up, a posted in the Astropath thread is the Geller Fields don’t collapse unless something makes them collapse, they are self-sustaining. Once made they stay made and require no power to continue working.
The second idea is that gravity has a part to play, just as stars have a gravity effect in the warp so a Hulk with its large mass will retain it form even if the Geller Field collapses. The Hulk has to be in the upper layers of the warp in order to benefit from this ‘gravity’ effect. It’s not so much the pull of gravity the keeps the ship together more the amount of reality in one place within the warp has a tendency to stay together (perhaps there is a critical mass point where a ship will retain its form and below this it falls apart). It’s almost the amount of reality (large mass) means that the normal laws of the universe have something to lock onto.
The concentrated reality within the warp would man that the centre of the Hulk is stable, whereas the outer layers slowly brake apart.
Perhaps both are possible?
|
|
|
Post by Sikkukkut on Nov 4, 2004 0:35:09 GMT -5
Argh, I just replied on this in the other thread. Wait a minute... >sounds of copying and pasting< On Geller Fields being flush with the hull: in the Star of Arlus text in one of the old second-edition books tehre's a description of a Navigator perceiving the Field drawn out behind the ship into a teardrop shape by the forward movement of the ship. In Legacy there's a description of the Field being pushed inward by warp turbulence until it's very close to the hull... Just like the materium doesn’t need any energy to keep it separate from the warp, I’m thinking that once a ship drops into the warp its Geller Field remains intact no matter what. ...and in Legacy a ship's field does fail under pressure for a split-second before its engines can power it up again. The stuff I've read seems to indicate that a Field has to be powered up and maintaines, and can be stressed or overwhelmed by sufficiently extreme conditions. As for the question of hulks, I also had noticed that there are some occasions when a ship adrift in the Warp has been shredded ( Execution Hour for one, and one of the characters muses that he's seen it happen on multiple occasions) and others where hulks have drifted deserted for long periods of time and been not only intact but reusable at the end of it, like the Cardinal Boras. My assumption had always been that it's not exposure to the Warp itself that does this, but exposure to disturbed warp: the worse the conditions an unprotected material object finds itself in, the quicker its substance is corroded into entropy by the force of the Warp. Thus a hulk, empty of life (or with life that's dormant and doesn't agitate the Warp, like hibernating Genestealers) could conceivably drift for ages without encountering any warpflows strong enough to disrupt it. One that finds itself without protection and full of panicked, injured and dying crew will be surrounded by turbulence and shine like a beacon to daemons, and will be toast.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Nov 4, 2004 10:48:20 GMT -5
I think Zholud covered this here…
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Nov 4, 2004 16:44:44 GMT -5
The fact that he perceives it in this situation the way he does, is not enough proof that it is always so and even that is the unbiased description of real state of the field. Moreover, I’m convinced that at time of writing, the author has not thought deeply on what the field does. Thus a deeper thought given to the subject is sometimes better than ‘official fluff’. IMHO of course. Philip, while this is all well and good, Zholud does not cite any examples of it opperating counter to Sikkukkut's description which comes from the fluff. I may be that the case in point can go down to the interpretations or observations of the character and not be indicative of how the field acts normally, but without further examples from the fluff, it is all that we have to go on. I will try to locate the rule books from my copy of Space Hulk to see if anything about the Geller field is touched upon. One thing that I do remember from the game is that Hulk are generally made from more than one ship. These could be ships that have crashed into each other or as I view it, it may be a process of accretion. This is growth or enlargement by a gradual build up. It may be that wrecks in the warp actually attract one another. Warp space does not hold to the rules of our reality, so it will try to pull the ships or pieces of ships apart. It may be that the attractor force which in our reality is defined as gravity pulls these broken ships together (like attracts like). In some of the pictures and descriptions that I have read about Hulks (I'll try to locate the specific text) bulk heads and ship pieces seem to run together or through each other. This may be indicative of the reality of the different parts of the ships starting to be unraveled by entropy. rather than crashing together and causing an explosion or more damage, when the vessels or derelicts colide, they meld together (almost like two drops of mercury flowing into eachother). There may also exist a certain mass (particle density) beyond which hulks will fall back into reality or at which point the atractive force between our reality and the hulk will draw the two together. It is not unheard of for massive hulks to transition back into real space.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Nov 28, 2004 17:01:28 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned the situation is fairly easy to solve, as posted elsewhere, in a way that is consistent with the 'fluff' and - for a change - actually quite interesting. It also figures into the various ideas that have been posted by various people at various times. To summarise the various issues: The Warp and 'Depth'Regardless of whether you are a personal advocate of a warp that is separated (but not segregated! ) into different 'levels' (i.e. manifold spaces, 'warp', the Realms of Chaos, etc.), there seems to be general consensus on the concept of 'depth' in the warp and an implied relationship to 'speed' of warp travel. That is to say that the 'shallows' of the warp are for slow moving ships including the Tau. The depths of the warp are faster moving, but less predictable. To make it clear, while the 'shallows' can be traversed through the use of 'calculated jumps' you would have to be a complete lunatic to dive to the depths without a navigator. Again, though, the deeper you go the faster you travel, hence the Imperium's "control" of warp trave through their control of the navis nobilite. Working along the occult phrase "As above, so below" there is the concept that the material universe has a direct impact on the warp. In this case it is taken to mean a physical impact in that the 'laws of physics' in the 'shallows' tend to be more consistent with those in the matterium. As one increases ones depth such laws disappear. For those familiar with the game universe, this parallels the concept of the Umbra in the Wizz Kids' Mage the Ascension: 'reality' tends to fragment as one increases depth. Thus, the Geller Field in many ways does act as a 'reality stabiliser' (as argued by many, including IIRC Phillip) but only to a point. It is like a submarine in many ways. Go deep and you begin to 'stress' the surface, altering it with 'pressure'; the structure deforms (as mentioned by Sikkukkut IIRC). What happens when you turn off the Geller Field, or it is switched off? Same as with increasing pressure in water. In the 'shallows' you're not overtly in trouble, but go deeper and things really get wiggy. Geller FieldThis is not necessarily the same thing as the device known as the 'warp drive' as is usually assumed, but a separate device. A 'natural' Geller Field may or may not be a product of the ship itself in the Warp (i.e. Destecado and the idea of 'reality stabilisation' as a natural product of a material object IIRC) but, if so, it is reasonable to infer that there is an artificial device which accentuates its action in the 'deeper warp' (see above). Myself - and coincidentally zholud - share a preference that the Geller Field (in this, the 'artificial' one) be utilised as a means of 'propulsion' for the warp-capable ship. It is not necessary for it to be present (cf. Tau, once again), but in this case the ship is a 'bubble' to be pushed along at the specific vagaries of the warp. There is, in other words, no direction. With the enhanced field, one has a 'rudder', 'sails', etc. This also parallels some of the specific "imagery" of the 40k universe, i.e. the 'Age of Sail' that perpetuates not only in many of the descriptions of the operation of warp ships, but also in the BFG game in just how conflict occurs. The Warp and Geller FieldsWell, this has been basically outlined above. The point that I wanted to make here is that as established in the 'fluff' the warp has currents, tides, etc. One idea that we've been playing around with is that the 'sensors' in warp drives, when they are calculating routes/whatever for calculated warp jumps, only sees into the shallows of the warp. Just as with visible light, things tend to get skewed the deeper you get. Add to that the concept of the thermocline which creates a radio-opaque boundary to sonar... Well, it means that the 'machine' doesn't see that deep in the warp. What am I getting at here? Ultimately that you can have 'upwellings' from the depths of the warp which can grab hold of a spacehulk and drag it under. Similarly the same type of current can depost a space hulk in the 'shallows'. What happens in the depths? All the funky stuff mentioned in other posts, above. Ships merging together, etc. And the great thing is that if you do have a ship with an opeational Geller Field, it can act as a 'reality bastion' in a sea of ships that melt together like so many different strips of wax... And the point is... This would indeed tie in with the idea that they are derelicts. It does not preclude the fact that they might be otherwise, but as an image thing it would seem to be appropriate to have them as (mostly ) unpowered. As mentioned above, we can always consider gravity. The warp does have a connection with gravity and so it would be 'appropriate' to have places where ships may be drawn together and - in a brutish fashion of course! - crash together. This is separate to the relaxation of reality as one goes 'deeper' into the warp as described above. Yeeeesssss... kinda. I'm going to agree but then suggest that we do not imply that there is a 'natural' level to Geller Field-less ships that would allow this kind of thing to happen! Hmmn, I must have missed the date of posting for this thread, so you have my apologies. It is must understanding, however, that this is the current working theory which incorporates both 'calculated jumps' and Navigated travel, as briefly outlined... somewhere. Perhaps in the Astropath thread? Regardless, I say "yay".
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Nov 30, 2004 17:15:34 GMT -5
Geller FieldMyself - and coincidentally zholud - share a preference that the Geller Field (in this, the 'artificial' one) be utilised as a means of 'propulsion' for the warp-capable ship. It is not necessary for it to be present (cf. Tau, once again), but in this case the ship is a 'bubble' to be pushed along at the specific vagaries of the warp. There is, in other words, no direction. With the enhanced field, one has a 'rudder', 'sails', etc. This also parallels some of the specific "imagery" of the 40k universe, i.e. the 'Age of Sail' that perpetuates not only in many of the descriptions of the operation of warp ships, but also in the BFG game in just how conflict occurs. Interestingly enough, the way that you are describing the Geller field makes it sound a lot like the Magnetosphere of a planet. The magnetosphere protects the planet from the radiation and ionized particles of the solar wind. Creating an artificial magnetosphere (which has been successfully done in the lab) has been proposed as a means of propulsion. The magnetosphere would take the place of a physical solar sail. The solar wind pushes on the magnetosphere of planets constantly, but planets are too massive to blow away. A smaller object however, such as a ship, should be pushed along by the solar wind. Let us consider the warp for a moment. If you consider the warp as a sea of energy (as I do) then warp currents and eddies could be considered charged particles traveling in a specific direction. If the artificial magnetosphere were deployed in the warp, then it should be able to interact with these charge particles and create propulsion in much the same manner a solar sail would with the solar wind. Since the amount of charged particles increase the “deeper” you go into the warp, then the amount of particles pushing against the field increases. This would thus increase the speed at which the ship could travel. The magnetosphere bubble also has the advantage of protecting those inside from the ionized particles of the warp (in much the same way that the earth’s magnetosphere protects us from the solar winds). The Warp and 'Depth'To make it clear, while the 'shallows' can be traversed through the use of 'calculated jumps' you would have to be a complete lunatic to dive to the depths without a navigator. Again, though, the deeper you go the faster you travel, hence the Imperium's "control" of warp travel through their control of the navis nobilite. So are you saying that the depth at which one travels through the warp may contribute to the time dilation that can occur? This may be why navigators are in such high demand. Does this perhaps point to a standard time dilation for calculated jumps…with maybe a specialized table to role off of if the jump should fail or an unexpected warp event were encountered during travel? Geller FieldThis is not necessarily the same thing as the device known as the 'warp drive' as is usually assumed, but a separate device. A 'natural' Geller Field may or may not be a product of the ship itself in the Warp (i.e. Destecado and the idea of 'reality stabilization' as a natural product of a material object IIRC) but, if so, it is reasonable to infer that there is an artificial device which accentuates its action in the 'deeper warp' (see above). My basic premise behind this assumption is that any system will maintain itself unless acted upon by an outside force (concept of quantum inertia…to long to go into here. See the Zero Point Discussion for more details). Beyond this general principle, the systems of living beings are endowed with an energy field which some call a spirit and others refer to as chi, Whatever it is called, I believe, this natural energy field is the conduit by which Psykers direct the energy from the warp into the matterium. It may therefore serve as a personal reality stabilizer in the warp…in the near warp at least, where it is reinforced by the echo of our own reality. The Warp and 'Depth'Working along the occult phrase "As above, so below" there is the concept that the material universe has a direct impact on the warp. In this case it is taken to mean a physical impact in that the 'laws of physics' in the 'shallows' tend to be more consistent with those in the matterium. As one increases ones depth such laws disappear. For those familiar with the game universe, this parallels the concept of the Umbra in the Wizz Kids' Mage the Ascension: 'reality' tends to fragment as one increases depth. So ships which run in the near warp will benefit somewhat from the “bleed over” or echo our reality casts out into the warp? Thus, the Geller Field in many ways does act as a 'reality stabilizer' (as argued by many, including IIRC Phillip) but only to a point. It is like a submarine in many ways. Go deep and you begin to 'stress' the surface, altering it with 'pressure'; the structure deforms (as mentioned by Sikkukkut IIRC). I’m beginning to see it more and more as being like the magnetosphere around a planet. It is not so much stabilizing the reality within the bubble as it is keeping outside variable from interacting with the reality inside. One of the great dangers of radiation or any high energy (ionized) particle is that when they strike an object, they give up some of their energy to the object they struck. Ionization is the ejection of one or more electrons from an atom or molecule to produce a fragment with a net charge In the case of a cell or DNA strand, the loss of electrons will lead to an incomplete or damaged reproduction of the DNA sequence (this is partly how mutations occur). If the Geller field were to rupture, the ship and crew would be exposed to the high energy particles of the warp. Unlike “normal” radiation in the matterium, the high energy particles may not only remove electrons. They could also subject the particles making up the crew and ship to differing laws of reality or ad particles to the mixture (the warping effects of the warp). Granted this is only a scientific explanation of how the warp could affect an unprotected ship, but you get the idea.
|
|
|
Post by RascalLeader on Nov 30, 2004 18:25:46 GMT -5
Althougt I have not read most of the threads you are refering to, I thought I would just put down my assumtions before I go off and get 'corrupted' by the official version. From what I know the Geller Field is an artifical bubble that protects the Imperial ships inside from getting messed up by interaction with the warp relm. Most Space Hulks would not have this field because the fluff says they are dozens of vessel that crashed into each other; how messed up would a geller field be from the combind power of those ships? I had alway imagined that areas like the Eye of terror where reality and warp overlapped also existed inside the warp. Basically these would be tiny pockets of reality around that are natural version of the Geller field. So what I had in mind was that the drifting space hulks would get trapped inside one of these reality bubbles, but the side effect of their failing warp engines would mean this bubble got 'caught' and was dragged along by the momentum of the ship. So it would mean that when being trapped inbetween the warp and reality they don't exist on ether side. They can pop out into the real world and disapear back in again. I remember reading this somewhere in the Second Edtion fluff that Ghost hulks could do this; that they inhabited both realms.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Nov 30, 2004 20:25:13 GMT -5
The solar wind pushes on the magnetosphere of planets constantly, but planets are too massive to blow away. <grin> Yep. Or more simply it works as a, well, sail. Then you don't have to think too much about ionised particles. ;D If you consider the warp as a sea of energy (as I do) then warp currents and eddies could be considered charged particles traveling in a specific direction. Or even just like the wind... <grin> Sorry, but there is no real need at this point to 'science it up'. This would thus increase the speed at which the ship could travel. Well, the 'depth' thing is just a way of being roughly consistent with the 'fluff' while offering new and interesting suggestions. I can think of a dozen or so 'hand-waving' explanations to explain the difference in 'speeds' with 'depth', including the most obvious, i.e. increasing 'fragmentation' of reality and the separation from the concepts of 'space', 'time', 'spacetime' or whatever. If you were once again getting jiggy with the science side of things, as I sometimes do (! ) you could say that with increasing depth, the 'pressure' analogy is an increasing spacetime curve. Again, it's not strictly necessary but it does sound rather cool... The magnetosphere bubble also has the advantage of protecting those inside from the ionized particles of the warp... Which as elsewhere is determined to have a 'minimum' effect in the 'shallows' and increasing effect with 'depth'. So are you saying that the depth at which one travels through the warp may contribute to the time dilation that can occur? Time... space... whatever. This may be why navigators are in such high demand. Yes, that was the ultimate point... That and they can actually see what is going on, rather than 'warp drives' which only see into the shallows, as outlined previously. Does this perhaps point to a standard time dilation for calculated jumps… Personally, I previously allowed for both, i.e. the amount of time in the warp was proportional to the 'outside time', and where 'inside' and 'outside' time were independent but roughly related to the 'success' of the journey. I believe, this natural energy field is the conduit by which Psykers direct the energy from the warp into the matterium. Fairy snuff... I just don't like it at the moment. Too many problems with where it can lead. That an individual can create such a field is a given, since after all that is what a "Daemonic Protection Ward" (or whatever it used to be called; a psyker power from RT IIRC) is. But as a natural product of all bodies... Ick. So ships which run in the near warp will benefit somewhat from the “bleed over” or echo our reality casts out into the warp? Kind of, but I've got a sneaking suspicion that you've got things the wrong way around. It is not that 'reality' inherently stabilises the warp in the 'shallows', but rather this is a natural product of the warp that creates the matterium. The chicken and egg simultaneously existing, neither coming before anything but the creation of the concept. From what I know the Geller Field is an artifical bubble that protects the Imperial ships inside from getting messed up by interaction with the warp relm. This is broadly how it is being described above with the move away from the implication that if you 'turn off' the Geller Field the ship is ripped apart. Sikkukkut provided some exampels of where this is not the case and the explanation here would seem to fit. Most Space Hulks would not have this field because the fluff says they are dozens of vessel that crashed into each other... And who is to say that the power stays on anyway? I had alway imagined that areas like the Eye of terror where reality and warp overlapped also existed inside the warp. If they overlap then how does one exist within the other?
|
|
|
Post by RascalLeader on Dec 1, 2004 19:57:55 GMT -5
If they are self sustaining the on/off concept is out of the window anyway, then the power does not have to stay on. However if it can be switched off then the ship won't exist for long. I was only expressing my own ideas on the subject, from how I would imagine it. From what I do know ships cannot survive in the warp without protection; ergo for Hulks to keep drifting they need something to keep their material structure together.
Perhaps they don't. The Eye of Terror is the warps influcence bleeding out and its influcence on the materium, I was wrong to say it overlapps (although their are some points it would). What I was getting at was that their are weak points between the two realms, natural formations rather then artifical ones. Now just imagine what would happen if your in the warp and then you suddenly get snagged on a bit of reality. You would suddenly be trapped between two points, since the warps influcence is still present and so would be the stablising effect of the Materium.
Using the debth analogy, we are now talking about what seperates the warp and the materuim. However Since those two are hardly compatable the vessel would swing between existing between them perhaps from the force of gravity or whatever.
I am trying to solve a problem here thats thrown up by the Fluff. Hulks are derilict vessels that drift, they seemingly enter and exit the warp at random. While we can say that the Hulks are pulled out of the warp by gravity, how exacally are the able to reenter the warp? I would have thought once they pop back into the materium they would be stuck there since theirs noone on board to get the ship back into the warp.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Dec 1, 2004 21:17:37 GMT -5
Hmmn... just to let you know, RascalLeader, that I was not trying to be confrontational in my comments. If they came off that way, then my apologies. If they are self sustaining the on/off concept is out of the window anyway... Well, as far as I'm personally concerned they are not self-sustaining with a couple of caveats: (1) psykers if sufficiently trained should be able to create 'fields' to be able to protect them from the warp; and (2) a material body will tend to keep 'coherence' partially as a result of consensual reality (if you will forgive the term, then you might think of 'residual self-image' from the Matrix films). However if it can be switched off then the ship won't exist for long. This is where you get into the whole concept of Edition Drift monkeying around with arguments. The 'original' image of space hulks is massive, agglomerate and ancient wrecks. The Geller Field is a 'new' introduction, ergo ships must be able to survive without a Geller Field. The 'new 'fluff'', however, suggests that a ship is in trouble - or "won't exist for long" - if it turns off the Geller Field, ergo spacehulks must have Geller Fields or they wouldn't be ancient, and since they are ancient they must all have Geller Fields... <Kage gets dizzy with the circularity > Also one might think of the overall 'image' of the 40k universe inasmuch as everything must (well, mostly) take place violently. The Great Crusade is seen as a massive war with few people believing that it might have been largely political (despite the other common imagery regarding the Age of Strife! )... And matter, since it does not belong in the warp, must instantly burst from the warp into the matterium. (Indeed, I've used this approach to argue against the inimicable nature of matter and immaterium before! <snicker> ) The above suggestion (my first post) strikes me as a way of balancing the concept of warp travel - and indeed spacehulks, to remain on topic - while not only offering new and interesting information, but also integrating both the 'new' and 'old' information. It offers a holistic approach that ignores Revisionism and Edition Drift while also being fairly consistent with the - dum dum daaaah - imagery. (Tone is tongue-in-cheek here, BTW.) Thus, the Geller Field is not needed but without it you begin to have problems as 'reality' frays around you. The deeper you go the greater the pressure and the greater the danger, but there are so many advantages (i.e. 'speed' as well as obvious tactical superiority for 'warp engagements' should you be daft enough to do that). Spacehulks with operational Geller Fields are fine, but without direction they're going to drift and this includes 'uprisings' taking them down into the depths of the warp. I was only expressing my own ideas on the subject, from how I would imagine it. That's fine. Again, I must have misrepresented my comments. Smilies didn't seem appropriate, but that seems to have brought across a "tone" that wasn't intended. <sigh> But again, seen the first paragraph. From what I do know ships cannot survive in the warp without protection; ergo for Hulks to keep drifting they need something to keep their material structure together. From a 'fluff' stance, the old stuff disagrees with you and the new stuff disagrees with itself, but broadly agrees with you... Kinda. Maybe. But those words are kind of the problem. Again, though, see the above for a potential balanced solution to the problem that you might want to point out where it is going to cause problems, suggest tweaks, etc. Or even come up with something entirely new... What I was getting at was that their are weak points between the two realms, natural formations rather then artifical ones. In all such representations - Eye of Terror, Maelstron, Vortex weapons, etc. - the 'warp' is seem as dominant, i.e. water under pressure that 'bursts forth' when released. This would tend to suggest that an inverted situation would not necessarily be the case. Possible, but so exceptionally rare that it might as well be the Crossroads of Inertia where time runs backward... I am trying to solve a problem here thats thrown up by the Fluff. Hulks are derilict vessels that drift... <tongue-in-cheek> If they're derelict, how do they survive without a Geller Field! </tongue-in-cheek> they seemingly enter and exit the warp at random. Yep, it's a problem. The 'fluff' has never offered a solution to this, as you say... Or, rather, it never explicitly offered a solution. There are, however, solutions and this lies in a long forgotten piece of 'fluff' (i.e. I cannot remember where from) in the 'natural warp gate'. These are areas of space within the warp zone where natural transition into the warp is permissible without the huge release of energy normally required. (Incidentally this offers one possible solution to the problematic descriptions in Farseer with the warp transition described therein!) So the situation is simple: Spacehulk passes through natural warp gate and enters the matterium (or immaterium). Wanders around for a while (or a long while!) until it enters another natural warp gate and either goes into the matterium or the immaterium. Thus a spacehulk might enter the matterium at one point, orbit a star and then exit at another point. Or it could float around a system for millennia... or whatever. (Remembering that astronomically space hulks are still quite small and would therefore not necessarily be instantly detected or, even, detected at all!) While we can say that the Hulks are pulled out of the warp by gravity, how exacally are the able to reenter the warp? The link between the warp and gravity, and more specifically the warp zone and gravity creates some problems especially when the 'new ''fluff'' indicates that it is when the gravity of a system reaches a certain 'low point'. This raises the question of LaGrange points and what effect they would have, and might tend to imply that 'natural warp gates' are incredibly common... Indeed, this might be the case but then you'd be back in the original situation where finding a reason to have them popping in and out of the matterium would be difficult!
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Dec 1, 2004 22:50:50 GMT -5
What if Hulks are trapped on the border between the universes, with a link to both the warp and material universe, in a constant state of flux? As it drifts it is pulled one way or the other, sometimes deeper into the warp, other times into reality. If gravity is a factor, it would explain why hulks turn up in solar systems: as they drift closer to the sun or a planet, they are pulled further into the materium and become visible. They may become quite tangible, and a person (has a will) could get off, or get on. Hulks would always be a bit phasy and ghost like. This would mean hulks are never in one universe or the other, but sandwiched in-between the two (perhaps a special boundary layer - and as a sneaky side thought, it could be this boundary layer that the Tau use to travel the warp, slow but safe). Being stuck in what is almost a third universe/ space would explain why hulks act as they do, and keeps them consistent with all fluff (as the fluff never talks about ‘boundary space’ ).
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Dec 1, 2004 23:01:40 GMT -5
What if Hulks are trapped on the border between the universes, with a link to both the warp and material universe, in a constant state of flux? Hmmmn... the only problem here is that it concentrates on the boundary as a focus of 'weird space' and creates a discrete rather than continuous situation. At least as I see it. As it drifts it is pulled one way or the other, sometimes deeper into the warp, other times into reality. Only problem here is that the boundary has suddenly moved into the 'depths', moving away from a 'location' and more into a 'concept'... surely? It creates some problems in terms of explanation. If gravity is a factor, it would explain why hulks turn up in solar systems: as they drift closer to the sun or a planet, they are pulled further into the materium and become visible. Problem here is the concept of the warp zone. It is more discrete than continuous, a 'boundary' by which something must happen or something rather nasty happens. Otherwise all ships would get closer to the system to 'materialise'... (And, no, saying that the Geller Field inteferes with this process doesn't work as a 'get out clause'... ) This would mean hulks are never in one universe or the other, but sandwiched in-between the two... While I like the concept of being "phased", it does also smack of the idea whereby you create a new form of travel for every new race or concept that you include. This is something that I would like to avoid. Being stuck in what is almost a third universe/ space would explain why hulks act as they do, and keeps them consistent with all fluff... Only by creating an entirely different situation which would then subsequently create more problems...
|
|