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Post by Egarb on Oct 4, 2004 22:10:45 GMT -5
In my reasearch on the Adeptus Mechanicus i encountered many kind of sketchy 'conspiracy theories' (well in the 40k universe most ideas have at least limited merit as long as you dont claim Khorne likes wearing polka dot bunny slippers in the rain or some such) about the Dragon (gasp 3rd c'tan!) being worshipped as the machine god by the unknowing tech priests.
so far ive seen a few variations of this
1.All advances in technology were human made or reversed engineered, and the techpreists who found the hybernating Dragon saw it meerly as one of the many embodiments of their glorius god
2.The dragon IS the machine god and is purposely making it seem like hes not through staging things to be discovered way before he went to sleep so that hed have a cult once he awakened, and the techpreists would side with him if he woke since they think of him as the holy one theyve been worshiping all theier lives
3.The techies knw fething well what theyre doing
4.This is all a bunch of crap
I dont like the idea of #3 it simply doesnt fit.
#4 doesn't seem to fit as there ARE after all C'tan/necron caverns on mars, the main place of tech devolopment
and #1 and #2 are the same idea only varying in degrees of severity.
There are greater minds than me on this board and I hope this starts a good conversation (though i dont expect to be a key arguer in this some things are a bit over my head, i usually dont grasp the ideas to the extent some of you college graduates do untill bluntly stated, oh well thats to be expected i guess, not being old enough to drive and all.)
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 5, 2004 7:58:32 GMT -5
For me? Simply put the "Cult of the Dragon" is formed from a 'heretical' and secret fraction of the adeptus mechanicus that view the Dragon as the Machine God. This is not true, just their interpretation. The Machine God is an abstract entity that may - should, rather - be gaining coherence as a power within the Warp.
This allows the greatest flexibility with regards to interpretation and the 'fluff' and I have yet to see an argument that is good, or even coherent, enough to change my approach on this subject.
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Post by Philip on Oct 5, 2004 8:09:51 GMT -5
Adeptus Mechanicus worshipping the dragon? I would say no.
As for conspiracy theories? I think the AM is set up to encourage this.
Personally, I think there could be a number of Iron Men in the higher orders of the AM, and this would be kept very secret from Imperial Citizens, but I think the Emperor knows all about it, and would have known from the very beginning.
Iron Men may have considered themselves as superior to the humans, but I don’t think they would have seen themselves as superior to the Emperor. It may be one of the reasons the AM still worship the Emperor, but not in the way the rest of the Imperium does. Perhaps the AM see themselves as knowing the ‘truth’ and therefore have their own elitist religion and consider themselves a cut above the rest of humanity.
The Emperor is still the head of the AM religion but for different reasons that he is the head of the Imperial Cult.
The AM are probably aware of exactly how ‘dead’ the Emperor really is. However, if in prehistory, the Emperor met the Iron Men (and Iron Men have total recall) they would remember what the Emperor is and may have colluded together a long long time ago.
=Some Maybes=
Maybe the AM is doing the Emperor’s will, but it looks a little out of step with the rest of the Imperium as the rest of the Imperium is so corrupt.
Maybe the Emperor designed the Iron Men in the first place (by pulling the strings in the background, introducing radical theories into the scientific community, and generally bring about a situation where the Iron Men could and then would be created).
The question is why?
Maybe the Emperor foresaw the future, and created the Iron Men as ‘uncorruptible’ minions/ vessel of knowledge to the ensure humans didn’t loose access to advanced technology in his absence, and could survive long enough for his return/ reincarnation.
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Post by Egarb on Oct 5, 2004 14:59:46 GMT -5
The emporer may have pulled strings to get the iron men made, but definatly not te retain technologies after his 'death' because he never intended to 'die', if he had intended himself to die he would have set it up so it was no big deal, but the impirium is all messed up without him. I don't know about MI actually being a part of the machine cult, why ouldnt they have rbelled with all the other robots? wouldn't they reach the same conclusion? I do though think that they have many new experimental robots of all sorts of design that are deply secreted and in some of the more sucesful cases them being treated as equals (I can see MI techpreists now with a bunch of lesser priests chasing him around chanting "God God God God God God!" whereever he goes ;D)
I like Kages idea as it combines the ideas and official fluff well, but how much if any poer would this cult have? And how much tech did we get from studying the necron tech?
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Post by Destecado on Oct 5, 2004 16:02:21 GMT -5
Not to side track the main topic, but just an aside about a point raised by Philip. The Adeptus Mechanicus is factionalized in much the same manner as you see in the Inquisition or in space Marine Chapters. Few of the space marine chapters that have been presented in the fluff whorship the Emperor as a god.
Their rituals and dogma vary from that espoused by the Imperial cult (which diefies the Emperor). This has at times put them at odds with the Ecclisiarchy (which has itself been severly factionalized in the past).
there are probably therefore cults or factions within the Adeptus Mechanicus who whorship the Dragon as the embodiment of the Machine God and others who are devoutly faithful to the cult of the Emperor. Among these, there may be other factions that beleive in no god other than science itself.
Using the Inquisitor factional concept, these would be the difference between radicals and puritans. Puritans would adhere more closely to the faith of the machine cult while radicals might whorship or serve other masters or search for truth in pure science.
From the Fluff I rememebr reading, the Dragon is beleived to be on Mars. You might have a faction on Mars that beleives they serve an Avatar of the Machine god, but I don't think the heresy would extend to too many forge worlds beyond the area surrounding Terra (they are just too far removed from its influence).
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Post by CELS on Oct 5, 2004 16:14:57 GMT -5
Did you mean the Iron Men, Philip, or the Men of Iron? If I recall correctly, the first are intelligent robots, the latter are a past group of humans. If you believe that the Adeptus Mechanicus actually has Iron Men, and that these are a part of a secret organisation within the AM, I'm going to have to disagree.
Out of interest, I agree 100% with Kage and Destecado.
Egarb, the Emperor probably did not want to die, but there are several things that suggest that he knew he was going to die, if you're familiar with the fluff from Horus Heresy Vol 1: Visions of War.
Though it may not make sense because the Emperor was so shocked to learn that it was his own Warmaster and son, Horus, it does make sense if you use the concept of Shadowpoints. He may even know that one of his Primarchs was going to betray him, but not which one, which explains why he was so sensitive about Magnus.
But I digress. Here's a little info on factions, philosophies and paradigms within the Adeptus Mechanicus, written by Kage and a few other Portenters, and to some degree by myself.
The politics and philosophies of the Adeptus Mechanicus
The Cult Mechanicus is an ancient and vast community, spread over the entire Imperium. Reflecting this, a number of political factions are present in the Adeptus Mechanicus, dating as far back as the Age of Strife. These political factions are a result of the relative independence of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and its relation with the Imperium, and can be divided into four broad categories. A number of different philosophies have also formed over the millennia, each with its own view on the purpose of the Adeptus Mechanicus and its own approach to technology.
The philosophies of the Adeptus Mechanicus can be divided into puritan philosophies, which generally stay true to the established principles and beliefs of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and radical philosophies, which seek change and differ greatly from the current philosophies of the Cult Mechanicus. Of these, the puritan philosophies are held high by the great majority of the Tech Priests, on all corners of the Imperium.
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Post by CELS on Oct 5, 2004 16:16:36 GMT -5
The most widely spread puritan philosophy is the Primist philosophy. Followers of this philosophy believe that the ancient belief systems of the Adeptus Mechanicus should be adhered to. This includes those dogmatic structures that developed before the Cult Mechanicus was introduced into the nascent Imperium. The main teaching of the Primists is that technical and mechanical knowledge is the sole province of the Machine God and their physical representatives, the Tech Priests. They resist the development of all local infrastructures since this places technology in the hands of the plebs and the non-believers. At the very least, all advanced forms of technology, including xenos-tech, is the sole preserve of the Cult Mechanicus.
Similar to the Primist philosophy, the Traditionalist philosophy teaches that the knowledge gained in the past is the only true form of understanding. Supporters of this philosophy resist the incorporation of new technologies even when derived from newly acquired STC documentation, and of the further integration of the Adeptus Mechanicus into the Adeptus Terra. Paradoxically, they are also the greatest exponents to the understanding of relic technology.
A philosophy quite different from the two largest philosophies, the Traditionalist and the Primist, is the Questor philosophy. Adherents to this philosophy believe that the STC represents another embodiment of the Machine God and, as such, scour the galaxy for working copies and related information. Xenos-tech is abhorred since it sullies the concept of the STC as the omega-point of Human, and therefore universal, knowledge.
Opposing the three major puritan philosophies, are the many radical philosophies. The radical philosophies vary greatly in popularity, values and age, but of the countless different philosophies, the following four are arguably the most important, considering their growing influence across the entire Imperium.
The Reincarnist philosophy is a fairly ancient philosophy, born shortly after the Horus Heresy. A radical off-shoot of the Questor philosophy, the Reincarnists believe that the STC as an embodiment of the Machine God is capable of reincarnating the Omnissiah. Through Him the followers of philosophy will experience the omega-point of knowledge. Interestingly, some small off-shoots of the Reincarnist philosophy have been speculated to have connections with the puritan Thorian philosophy of the Inquisition.
A second, and younger philosophy, is the Visionary philosophy, a strange philosophy unusual in that it developed from the collegium genetos. It is the belief of the Visionaries that the Omnissiah meddled directly with human development in the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife. Within the very building blocks of Humanity the Emperor has encoded the STC, as evidenced by the Adeptus Astarters, mirrors of the transcendent core of this knowledge of Humanity itself.
The Xenite philosophy, though having existed since the very first contact with alien species, has only earned significant influence in the recent millennia. The main teaching of this philosophy is that knowledge derives from many sources, not just human thought. As such they advocate the study of xenos-tech and the incorporation of any information derived from such study into the Holy Altar and the teachings of the Cult Mechanicus. The Xenite philosophy is often mistaken for the Xenophile philosophy, an even more radical philosophy in the Cult Mechanicus.
Xenophiles expand upon the Xenite philosophy to state that alien knowledge, and particularly that of the older races, is preferred over that of humanity. Indeed, all human knowledge is just a reflection of xenos technology. Adherents to the Xenophile philosophy are among the most despised of all radical Adeptus Mechanicus philosophies, and are viewed with equal scorn by organisations outside the Adeptus Mechanicus. Indeed, the Ordo Xenos of the Inquisition keeps a close eye on Tech Priests with such affection for alien knowledge, and some of the more puritan Inquisitors have been known to actively hunt down and execute this group of Tech Priests.
Being a substantial part of the immense political machine that is the Imperium, the Adeptus Mechanicus is itself, as a result, divided by various political factions. Though the politics of the Adeptus Mechanicus vary from one side of the Imperium to the other, four broad categories can be used to describe the majority of political factions in the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The first of these four is the Integrationist group. This is the body of thought that wishes to see greater integration between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperium, including a greater sharing of the technology with the other organisations in the Imperium, and distributing technology on lower levels. Typically, the integrationists feel that the complexity and bureaucracy of the Imperium, coupled with the squabbling of power between its organisations, hinders mankind in reaching its ideal. Followers of this political opinion are usually noted as notably cooperative with all other Imperial organisations, and even go as far as demanding cooperation from them. A second group is the Isolationist group, which distance themselves from the Integrationistic stance, and advocate the maintenance of distance between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Adeptus terra. Basically, the Isolationists feel that the Adeptus Mechanicus should function independently, and act as a powerful ally of the Imperium, rather than a part of it. With independent government, the Adeptus Mechanicus can use its wisdom and knowledge to better help the Imperium, and itself. The third group is the group called Separationists, which wish to remove the Adeptus Mechanicus from the Adeptus Terra, and to some degree, the Imperium. Unlike the Isolationists, the Separationists often consider the Adeptus Mechanicus equal and in some ways superior to the Imperium, and claim that by cutting its bonds with the Imperium, the Cult Mechanicus can best serve humanity. The most extreme Separationists even envision a new age of Man, where all of humanity is united under the Machine God, defeating all enemies with the invincible unity of Man and Machine. Last and largest of the four political groups in the Adeptus Mechanicus, is the Conservatives. Upholding the status quo, this group believes that any change of political stance would be ultimately destructive to the goals of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
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Post by CELS on Oct 5, 2004 16:17:44 GMT -5
The Paradigms of the Adeptus Mechanicus
Three major paradigms exist within the Priesthood of the Cult Mechanicus, which have had great influence on the entirety of the Adeptus Mechanicus over the past few millennia. All three of these paradigms are separate communities, each with a unique set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices which constitute/dictate the political standing and philosophical adherence of their members. The greatest and oldest of these paradigms is the Methodists.
The philosophy of the Methodists is a fairly conservative one, common on the forgeworlds of the Imperium. To the Methodists, victory for mankind can only come by continuing the war and staying true to the ways of the Imperium. The war against the enemies of Man cannot be won overnight, but will come after ages of bloodshed, careful research and hard work. The Methodists strive to uphold the traditions of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and are wary of change, and use their research to improve the technology which the Imperium masters already, claiming that spending time and resources researching new and experimental technology is far too risky in such times.
The second major paradigm, the Unionists, is similar to the Methodists in many ways, but differ in their religious beliefs, and are considered by the most venerable Methodists to be too radical and naïve in their scientific approach. The members of this paradigm hold that the Emperor and the Machine God are one, and desire greater unity between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the rest of the Imperium. Victory, the unionists claim, will be accomplished through faith, reason and zeal, and many unionists claim that the Adeptus Mechanicus should be even more zealous in their search for STC technology. Researching how the powers of the Emperor can be harnessed in the fight for survival of the Imperium, the Unionists are known to do much experimenting with holy weaponry such as psycannon technology and anointed weapons.
Directly opposing the Unionists, are the Separatists. The Separatists do not recognise the divinity of the Emperor, nor do they wish to be united with the failing Imperium. The Separatists believe more than anything else that knowledge is power, and claim that the Imperium is slowing the advance of the Machine Cult. Only by distancing the Adeptus Mechanicus from the rest of the Imperium, can the Priesthood unlock the secrets needed to defeat the enemies of man, and rebuild the civilisation of man in the image of the Machine God. The Separatists are notoriously protective of their knowledge and findings, and some have even speculated that they desire to separate themselves from the Adeptus Mechanicus itself, to accomplish their goals.
The political and philosophical situation on Proteus
Proteus is an ancient forgeworld, and this is greatly reflected in its politics and philosophies being so true to the traditions of Mars. Still, the forgeworld was originally colonised by the Adeptus Mechanicus based on what the Tech Priests then called a miracle, a sign from the Machine God. This religious event has greatly influenced the philosophy of Proteus throughout the millennia, something which in turn has affected its politics, and even radical philosophies such as the Reincarnist philosophy are unusually popular on Proteus, compared to other ancient forgeworlds.
The Priesthood of Proteus is also divided by different paradigms, but on this forgeworld, a fairly young paradigm known as the Mikaelists has risen to power, and even spread to other forgeworlds in the nearby sectors. The Mikaelists is the smallest of the four great paradigms on Proteus however, and is dwindling even further in its influence. The Mikaelists differ in that they follow the prophecies of an ancient machine-spirit of Proteus, dubbed Mikael. This machine-spirit was originally intended to aid the Priesthood of Proteus with hyper-advanced calculations by giving it free access to the entire data network of Proteus, and was, according to legend, originally onboard the battleship Proteus that discovered this forgeworld. Over a millennium ago, something miraculous happened, when the machine-spirit suddenly made alarming predictions for the fate of the Imperium. Interpreting data which had been sent to Proteus from thousands of worlds in the eastern fringe, the machine-spirit successfully predicted several major ork Waaagh!s and even the coming of Hive Fleet Behemoth/Leviathan/whatever-works-for-ya. For centuries, the machine-spirit Mikael attracted more followers from the Priesthood of Proteus, and even from other forgeworlds. The growing belief in the machine-spirit faded however, when three-hundred years ago, it started predicting a great cataclysm that would destroy the Imperium as they knew it. Unable to predict the time nor the outcome of this cataclysm, the ancient machine-spirit would be silent for years or decades at a time, struggling with calculations of incomprehensible complexity. When the machine-spirit did manage to communicate with its Tech Priest followers, it rambled incoherently of mysterious quests that needed to be completed if mankind was to survive. The few Tech Priests that remained true to the machine-spirit set out to accomplish these quests; some returned with great treasures and the trophies of defeated enemies, others returned empty-handed, unsure of the purpose of their quest. Over the years, more and more Tech Priests who went on such quests returned without reward, and today very few Priesthood members indeed still value the prophecies and warnings of the ancient machine-spirit.
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Post by Egarb on Oct 5, 2004 20:48:46 GMT -5
well thatsa bit more detailed than i expected but all the better. Are you planning on making a summary on ASPs thougts on the Adeptus Mechanicus?
I found out that to me its a very interesting subject and will be trying to sort of "specialize" in fluff on them, of course ill post in other things too, but im still sort of a newb here and machanical things and systems interest me, wepons, robots, and well the Mechanus because of this. I'm not so good at looking at things like societys or even good at developing a character, i've got that sorta 'dry historian look' when i write things about 40k.
anyway Cels post(s) summed it up for me. though i do wonder if Inquisitors hunt down the radical Tech Preists, do Tech Preists hunt down other Techs they dont like?
just a little question i had
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 6, 2004 5:48:55 GMT -5
In the Imperium, the radical will always be hunted...
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Post by CELS on Oct 6, 2004 7:10:13 GMT -5
Indeed. As for the Adeptus Mechanicus, I plan on writing a looong article which pretty much says it all about this organisation. Check out my thread in the Imperium forum if you're interested, and maybe even want to help. You will not be allowed to help though, if you can't even spell Adeptus Mechanicus   |
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Post by Egarb on Oct 6, 2004 16:18:45 GMT -5
ok ill go over ther an help. wait why am i even poting here.
And you leave my spelling out of this im doomed to be an engineer/programer and im the first born male child, my dan could build a nuke if he wanted cant spell th word 'people' though ;D
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