MvS
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Post by MvS on Sept 20, 2004 16:52:19 GMT -5
Wow, or should I say oww my eyes hurt, Sorry. Everything is relative, I feel. And Kage's. Um... perhaps an extension of, but such divisions are problematic in the sense that mortal minds evolved with The Warp/Empyrean existing as one of the existing pressures of Existence (with the risk of sounding rather circular... ). The evolution of life and then intelligence within the Materium created the Empyream (although not pure warp/potential, as that is an integral part of existnce from the gorund up). So to ask whether intelligence and emotion created the Empyrean, or whether the Empyrean created the mind is a circular question (not that I think you're asking that necessarily). I think that in the 40K context they evolved side by side in a completely symbiotic way. So perhaps I'm trying to say that I view the Empyrean as both an existing part and extension of the mind (or biological intelligence) in the 40K imagery. The mind is the key to 'opening' up the Empyrean and it is also the key to manipulating the Empyrean. Whether the mind is a kind of naturally regulated EoT is a good question. I would have to think about it more... Anyone else have any suggestions? I think, that's a handy analogy. Although 'shadow self' would have to be defined to a certain degree. Is it personal intelligence mixed with personal potential (warp)? Ideas...?
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MvS
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Post by MvS on Sept 20, 2004 17:19:04 GMT -5
Hello Destecado! What a lot of theory! Where to start...? I think you are leaning more towards decribing the How's of The Warp where I was looking at the What's. Be both touched upon the Why's. Very interesting stuff. I think the equation of the Zero Point Field with The Warp is an interesting one. As I menmtioned already, it seems to try to express more how The Warp works in relation to the Materium than what The Warp is (although the two do cross over). Rather than being the exact mirror image of MsV’s concept, they would be more like echoes; half formed or distorted by the other electromagnetic waves intersecting in the warp. That's a good point - and far more characterful. Although I didn't wish to imply that the Empyrean is 'full' of mirror images of the Materium. I believe it has some clear mirror images, but then there are so many other images, waves and various disturbances that some mirror images have 'interference', while other images are hazy echoes by their very nature (as you have described in your post). Hmm... reading through your post yet again, I find myself unable to comment intelligently upon a lot of what you decribe. I've always viewed 40K imageries through a more philosophical, or theosophical, prism, (just because it seems more gothic and cool to me ). Trying to explain 40K Warp phenomina by using specific physical laws, although interesting, strikes me as a bit reductionist, because once those laws are defined it handcuffs the magic of the imagery to a certain degree. Now I don't want to do what Kage hates so much and capitulate to the so-called 'Rule of Cool' too much (we need to explain some thing in a lucid and constant fashion), but at the same time all this talk of electromagnetic fields and so on takes alot of the magic away from what I see as a gothic fantasy imagery set in a anachronistic sci-fi universe. Anyway, once I've been able to absorb more of your text I'll post any further observations and questions I might have. Whatever I've said, it's still really interesting stuff.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 20, 2004 20:25:35 GMT -5
Well, it's not hard... I, on the other hand, are more than happy to fully explore and express as many theories as leaves fall in autumn. Excellent... Responses to posts must, of course, be rendered upon what is posted rather than belief of what someone is going to post... Um... that's good. I suppose it's... nice...? that we see some of these ideas in a similar way. [/quoe] Favourably, one could point out that there is enough consistency in the 'fluff' to point to commonalities of interpretation if one moves beyond the superficial... Do you mean that you see the 'creation' flow traverses from concept to physical reality, rather than the other way around? So the concept came before the physical demonstration of that concept? Merely that mind predicates everything else. The whole "chicken and egg" scenario is not something that I'm getting into... Well, well. Great minds... Are unique... And, incidentally, my mind is plagerist... Rest assured if I didn't mention it, someone somewhere would have posted "You mean like the Sea of Souls thing!!". LOL... "QED" in the 'fluff'... I haven't 'lifted' anything directly from anyone else. It is still my interpretation that I have come to through my own reasoning and critique on existing ideas. Calm, MvS... I'm not accusing you of plagerism. I personally tend to be entirely open and honest where ideas come from... it's a part of the whole science gig. If I ever wanted you to know who I was I would merely point you to the articles that I've published in various journals to show you how I operate on this regard... Written text is just so hard to read sometimes, you know? On yes, don't I know it... To make clearer what I was trying to say, if there were no other influences upon the Empyrean (The Warp) while a ship was travelling 'through' it, then a powerful (whatever) enough Navigator might be able to utilise the Empyrean's 'connected to all points in the universe' nature as a kind of Douglas Adams Total Improbability Drive... I will, at this juncture, not have Navigators as having actively affect the warpl. Not in any way. YOu can try and persuade me otherwise, but no at the moment. Perhaps a less intellectually arrogant way of saying this might have been: "he's posted his interpretation for everyone to see, that fact that it happens to share many points in common with the interpretation I've been working on makes it all froopy". Yep. Time of night... volume of alcohol... stress over work... Be in my position and then level arrogance comments... But, to be fair, based upon what was posted you are right... My apologies. Of course, one could also point out at numerous ideas that are playing around at the moment and look at the origins and the fact that those origins are never site... But I guess you're stressed over your paper, so it's all good. It operates as explanation, yes. One would hope that understanding goes both ways... I'm sure it would be a small thing to spare a little more tact in your replies to us. Actually there goes the understanding thing... If you felt that I was directing things entirely at you, then fair enough. Not meant that way... but as is obvious in language, as time gets less the language becomes more fragmentary. My bad. Understanding = good... not trying to be confrontational, but threshold level decreases significantly, more so when I've been suggesting the same for some time and have been shouted at it for the same... Grrr... PhD submitted in 10 more days. Things better, hopefully then... Ugh.
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Post by MvS on Sept 20, 2004 20:45:56 GMT -5
Okay. I'm a ittle stressed just now as well. I've come out to LA as part of a bilateral exchange between my university and the University of Southern California, only for certain people to decide to pay me for work a lot later than they had originally promised (I hate contracts with wriggle room!) Net result is that I hadn't seen my girlfriend for 5 months before coming out here, and now I'm out here I haven't taken as much time to see her as I would have liked due to the fact I thought I would stay out here until late in January 2005. So now I have to fly back to the UK before Friday (university red tape), shelve the work I'be been doing here at the USC, and count the hundreds of non-refundable pounds I've spent getting out here and trying to stay. It's all rather pants. So, if I am over-sensitive, all of the above can serve as a reason why... Group hug, and now we move on. ;D (thanks for your response though, and best of luck with completing your paper in good time)
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Post by MvS on Sept 20, 2004 21:00:44 GMT -5
I've been suggesting the same for some time and have been shouted at it for the same... That is indeed very annoying. Two things about that: 1. Something similar happens to me periodically with Black Library. They ask me to work on something, or I make a pitch for something that I'm really interested in; I work on it for ages, getting occasional encouraging noises from BL; then suddenly I find out someone else has the project, or that someone has written in half the time, with half the analysis and with all the usual glitches, even though I've been working so hard on it for so long . I'm not quoting it as a definite (yet...), but the vampire and Undead imagery for Warhammer Roleplay might well be a case in point... 2. I can imagine that it could be frustrating to crusade about something you think is patently obvious and/or just the coolest way of expressing something in 40K, and then someone comes along who's written a couple of nice enough but otherwise quite restricted books for BL, says something similar to you and then many of those same people who used to shout you down saying your ideas were 'wrong' or just 'poor' suddenly start agreeing with that new guy's ideas even though they are very similar to the one's they shouted at you for expressing - all probably because the 'new guy' has had a book published for BL and therefore must surely[/i] 'Know Stuff' that few others do... *Not that I'm saying this is the case with anyone on this particular forum, rather that memories of this happening to you on another forum might carry across to your feelings on this one. If any of this is remotely near the mark then I sympathise (in fact I sympathise even if it isn't...!) * Either that or my writing style really is as accessable and flawless as I like to pretend it is to people who've never read my stuff... ;D
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Post by zholud on Sept 21, 2004 5:46:04 GMT -5
To make clearer what I was trying to say, if there were no other influences upon the Empyrean (The Warp) while a ship was travelling 'through' it, then a powerful (whatever) enough Navigator might be able to utilise the Empyrean's 'connected to all points in the universe' nature as a kind of Douglas Adams Total Improbability Drive - being 'next to' all points of the materium as the same time, and then settling on one point almost instantaneously. Ergo there would be no 'journey time' within the Empyrean. Haven’t read the description of the drive in question, but I guess it does not fully agree with fluff on warp and warp travel in particular. Of course this approach has its merits, though… In its effects it would seem like more of a 'curved space' idea - open a door on this side of the galaxy, step through and immediately be on the other side of the galaxy with no noticeable time 'within' the doorway. Question is that with time flows strangely in the warp some ships are even faster and exit the curved space before they enter it. But then, my point was that there will always be external pressures on any voyage into the Empyrean, (from gods, daemons, the minds of the crew, the expectations of the Navigator and so on and so on)meaning that although the potential for instant arrival at another point of the Materium might have been possible to the Old Ones (say), now the accessable part of warp/potential reality (therefore 'The Warp', the Realm of Chaos, or what I have been calling the Empyrean for my own ease of use), is so tempestuous and cluttered that this kind of instant travel is almost (or totally?) impossible. There will always be time and distance spent 'within' the Empyrean... I agree with the fact that the warp travel takes time, but I’m unsure about your description of underlying reasons. If they are restricted with multiple enter-exits, sum of zero time period still remains non-positive. At least that’s how I see that… I generally prefer to have just a few physical laws dropped in the warp, e.g. inertia or speed of light limitation… plus I really enjoy the vision of navigators who with skill actually guides ship through the warp.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 21, 2004 8:04:50 GMT -5
<grin> Even more annoying when people come back at you with your own arguments, more so when there is a bit of misunderstanding going on! That sucks... no other word for it. Left and right hand comments spring to mind. The same thing happens in archaeological departments because of a fundamental lack of communication (and, ironically, here as well). No idea what you're talking about, I'm afraid... ;D S'okay. Have been putting up with it since I started posting to 40k forums. What I really need is total adoption of my approach to eldar... Just kidding... To be fair, being published is nothing special to me. I have more than many BL authors... It's just that no-one but the academic community is going to read mine, though I guess no-one but wargamers (etc.) read the BL novels... In other words, I prefer to see discussion based upon merit than "I'm published". Erm, not saying that is what you or the 'others' that are directly involved with GW that post here are doing that... Argh... being inarticulate again. So what was the point? Merely pointing out similarities in approaches. I created my approach "out of thin air", or rather from disparate sources that I thought was cool, and then found out that someone else had done something similar before me... (And thus it was assumed that I just copied it, which is incorrect. But, heck, the idea is cool anyway so who cares...) In direct application to this thread...? We seem to be pitching from the same place. The real question is how we 'canonise' it so that we create a good framework/foundation rather than defining everything. It's a consistency thing. <grin> No, it's happened here as well... If you want a brief description, then look here. Basically it defines a 'correspondence' point, e.g. all spatially divergent points are an illusion. Rather, they are all the same point. The Inf.Improb.Drive inverts this, kinda, but saying that it is in all points simultaneously... subtle difference, but difference there is. Oh god... time travel again. I'm personally against the extent... the reasons are all fairly sound, i.e. consciousness determines reality. I've stated something similar with the Webway, out of interest. You will note, of course, that MvS' proposal agrees with this. It's just that with greater 'depth' the laws tend to get more fluid. Consciousness moves into subconsciousness... Reality into dreams...
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Post by Destecado on Sept 21, 2004 10:27:11 GMT -5
Hello Destecado! What a lot of theory! Where to start...? I think you are leaning more towards decribing the How's of The Warp where I was looking at the What's. We both touched upon the Why's. Yes, Kage rails at me for this all the time (j.k. Kage) Thank you for your comments. I apologize for not having posted my comments on your work yet, but I am still trying to work through all of the concepts you put forth. From the first couple of reads through it, it bears a similarity to gnostic philosophy. Gothic imagery does indeed fit better with at least the Imperial perspective in 40k. (which of course is usually the only perspective that counts) I do agree that it is important to represent such a perspective, but we must not also forget that there are machines such as warp engines that need to have concrete scientific principles on which to work. This is not to say that my approach is any better than your representation. In fact, oth share some common concepts. The "truth" of the nature of the warp may lie some where between these two perspectives. I'll try to post my comments on your work soon. An issue of time travel? This phenomenon may have nothing to do with the flow of time in the warp. While I do agree that time does flow at different rates in the warp, it also does so in real space as well. The speed of light is actually slower in areas with high "gravity" Based on my current model of warp engines, they function by creating an artificial black hole that decreases the density of the zero point field (barrier between our reality and the warp) enough to allow a ship to jump through. If a ship is closer to the warp zone, the density of the zero point field is greater, thus the strength of the artificials singularity will also need to be greater. As with the event horizon of a normal black hole, the light that reflects the image of the ship to those outside the event horizon would be slowed. The image and other electromagnetic emissions from the vessel might therefore still be "visible" to observers outside of the event horizon even after the vessel has jumped into the warp. It is only after the artificial singularity disipates tht this "after image" would disappear. If the ship was on a short hop, and had already transitioned back nto normal space at its destination, this would create the illusion that the ship was not only in two places at once, but that it had arrived before it left.
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Post by Destecado on Sept 21, 2004 17:31:23 GMT -5
All right, I have gone over the information again and feel sufficiently ready to give my comments. First of all, I would like to say that I agree with much of what you had to say. Some of it actually mirrors concepts I put forward to explain the creation of the proto-dimensions in the Heart of the Sector. ( link to thread) Further research modified my original ideas, but the underlying concepts, for the most part, remained the same. 5. Potential Reality is completely unrealised, with only the potential for realised existence. It has no dimension, time, matter or definable energy. It is not a 'void' because it has no real dimensions to itself. It is not 'nothing' because that is an oxymoron: 'nothing' cannot exist, or else it is something. Potential Reality is the infinite possibility for anything and everything to come into existence - to be. I highly disagree with you here. The Immaterium or potential reality is formless, but not inert as you have suggested. The problem is that you are trying to equate existence with how we perceive it. Our “realized” existence only encompasses one possibility. In the void (which is the term I use for the deep warp) all potentialities for a given system exist at once. Reality or the Materium is but a single state (mode or condition of being) of the formless energy of Immaterium. Note: Using the term object when referring to the Immaterium is of little use, because the “object” we equate with a rose in our reality meaningless in the formless environment of the Immaterium. It would be more accurate to refer to the system (a regularly interacting or interdependent group of variables forming a unified whole) that comprises the rose or just the system for short. The Immaterium is fundamentally paradoxical, as its existence appears to be in direct contradiction of nearly all that we scholars think we understand about the multiverse. It would perhaps be self-defeating therefore to attempt to explore the Immaterium in terms that were not allegorical and abstract, for, unlike the Materium with its facts and physics, the Immaterium is a state of truth and metaphysics. Truth is relative and if the Immaterium embodies all possibilities, the concept of truth is invariable meaningless. The Immaterium would also defy any attempt to describe it through physical laws. Newtonian Physics rely on things such as mass and inertia. These quantifiable factors arise out of the interaction between “realized” systems which operate under given parameters as defined by the reality in which they operate. Since the Immaterium lacks physicality, (is formless) the interaction between systems is not bound by the parameters of a given reality, so the concepts on which (Newtonian) physics are based break down. This is one of the reasons I started looking to Quantum (particle) physics to define the interrelationship between the warp and realities. I believe the Immaterium to be the existence, spring and well of all potential and all possibility, and that the very stuff of Chaos, what we have called magic, is quintessential and raw potential. This in itself creates a paradox, as the common perception is that potential and possibility are not ‘things’ as one would commonly understand the term. They could instead be seen as humanity’s recognition and naming of the fact that all things have the potential to be something else (to change or be changed in whatever way) and are in a permanent state of momentum in that they are changing all the time, without end. I like to think of it as a touch of the “divine”. If you believe Christian dogma, god mad us in his image. Most take this latterly to mean that god looks like us, but if he is a being that arose from the Immaterium where physicality is meaningless than being made in his image might mean something completely different. Perhaps it means that we have the ability to not only see the untapped potentialities in systems, are able to manipulate them as well. We do this on many small levels each day. If you take raw food and turn it into a meal, you have in effect altered the reality of the food. Different cooking methods lead to different dishes being created from the same basic ingredients. Of course actually changing the parameters that define our reality or at least suspending them for at time is on a whole other level from preparing a hamburger, but it is a process of evolution. The 'part' of the Warp that I think is 'closest' to the Materium is in fact the 'parts' that have become a dumping ground for expectation, perception, abstracts and so on. So 'Chaos' (in the sense of daemons and Gods, and Hells and Heavens) are in fact all things that have been given an Actual Existence by intelligent mortals, but because they are not things that can be part of the cut and dry quantifiable processes of the Materium (Actual Reality), they do not exist actually within or frame of reference, ie: the perceivable universe. But also, because gods and daemons, heavens and hells are realised (in the sense that they have been conceived or dreamt), they are not infinite, unfocussed, unrealised, 'raw' potential either - so they are not 'pure' Warp. They are something in between. They occupy a metaphysical space (but a space none-the-less) alongside our own, 'attached' on one 'side' to the Materium, and kind of gradually fading out on the other 'side' as it drifts more and more into the totally unrealised and non-perceived possibility of Potential Reality (pure Warp). That is pretty much how I would define the warp. The Void (deep warp) is the vast sea of potentialities unaffected by the ripples created by reality, while the Warp (Near Warp) is that portion of the void close to a reality in which echoes from the reality “bleed over” into it. This of course is a less scientific explanation of the return vibrations sent back into the warp by the fluctuating electromagnetic fields of the zero point vacuum. So for me, Warp Travel skirts through this 'closest' (or perhaps more easily perceived/fractionally more tangible) part of the Warp - that part that is Chaotic and broiling with realised impossibilities, semi-realised possibilities, and all kinds of emotional and intellectual; debris/pollution from the matter and psychic/psychological activity of the Materium. These things are pretty much related to the warp currents and eddies that are found n the warp. As such, stronger or more powerful warp currents should probably be found around those areas with higher levels of population or of greater stellar density. Warp currents in uninhabited systems or areas of low stellar density would probably be smaller or sluggish.
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Post by MvS on Sept 22, 2004 17:20:28 GMT -5
Potential Reality...The Immaterium or potential reality is formless, but not inert as you have suggested. The problem is that you are trying to equate existence with how we perceive it. Not quite. I think perhaps I was unclear. In the model I suggest, 'Potential Reality is not the Immaterium. The Immaterium/The Warp/the Empyrean is the middle point between Potential Reality (pure, infinite and completely unrealised potential - or warp with a small 'w'), and Actual Reality (being the Materium). I propose Potential Reality, in the 40K context, as the "correct" way to view the concept and reality nothingness. It is not a dimension, is not inert, and has no energy, time or momentum of and in itself. It is the absolute zero, the just beyond infinity vanishing point under the most powerful microscope in the universe cannot maginify beyond. It entirely permeates and exudes from Actual Reality (the Materium), and only has existence because the Materium exists. It is the prime catalyst for everything and everything to happen or come into being, but cannot 'exist' on its own. Yet the Materium (Actual Reality) also exudes from this Potential Reality, because they are both completely intertwined - one is fundamentally part of the other. Existence, I suggest, is the iactual dynamic interaction between potential and actual, rather than a static 'thing' that is just have one and half the other. I think the problem comes about from my using of the words Materium and Immaterium. The Materium, in my model, really is Actual Reality, but the Immaterium in my model is not the 'opposite' of the Materium - it is not pure potential or 'warp'. The Immaterium, then, in my model, is the term given for convenience to the middle point between potential and actual. Neither fully realised with all the physical and quanitfiable laws of the Materium, nor totally unrealised, empty of all actuality but utterly explosive with inifinite potential (as I suggest 'pure' warp or potential is). Potential Reality is not a thing that can be entered into as such, because to do so would be to limit it's potential and allow it to catalyse with you to become something truly massive and wides ranging, but specific and not infinite. The Empyrean is thick with semi-realised, semi-actual potential, and thus has some identity and laws, but is otherwise entirely weird, malleable, and 'magic'.
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Post by MvS on Sept 22, 2004 17:53:53 GMT -5
I like to think of it as a touch of the “divine”... I agree, and this is precisely what I was driving at - though using Philosophical Speak rather than Theosophical Speak. I ask readers to not assume that I equate my model of the 40K universe with our own universe, and not to assume that I am making a commentary or critique upon the nature or 'truth' of Christian theology and dogma with the following - I am just using existing concept-models to help explain the theology of Existence, as I see it, of the fantasy 40K universe. Bases now covered I shall move on... Existence Itself, comprising of, and being the interaction between, Potential, Actual and the transition between these two, could be equated with a notion of a complete and infinite 'God' - being all things to all things. To put the model I suggest into terminologies more usually associated with Christianity - or more specifically Trinitarian Christianity - Potential Reality, the entirely distant 'nothingess' that is the prime catalyst for everything and anything to 'Be', and without which there could be no Existence, could be equated with the quintessential Divine - the 'Father', (the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, unknowable and entirely non-physical aspect and nature of Existence - 'God'). Actual Reality is the realisation of empty potential into Something. It is part of the inifinity of Existence, but it is tangible, measureable and understandable. Without it we couldn't 'see' Potential Reality - in fact, without it there would be no Potential Reality because one creates the other in an endless chicken-and-egg cycle. Intelligent mortals can relate to Actual Reality, because we can see it, measure it, and copy it to a degree. This physical aspect of existence, in my 40K theosophical trinitarian model, could be equated with the concept of the Mortal Incarnation of the Divine (the physical aspect and nature of Existence - 'God'). Finally, because there is Potential and Actual, and because Existence 'is' the encapsulation and interaction between these two, there is also a metaphysical dialogue between these two aspects that comes into being only through perception from one 'side' to the other 'side'. It is the 'border' between them, the almost actual, neither wholly one or the other, but with the presence and facility to tap into the divine (infinite, unrealised potential), be influenced by the divine, and also influence and be influenced by the mortal (the actual, the Materium). It is the expression of the infinite power and possibility unleashed when potential and actual meet. It is the realisation of Existence of and to itself. It is the product of perception, near the last and one of the most profound aspects of evolution - a product first of Life (as opposed to just the actual existence of rocks or blind magnetic forces), then perception, emotiveness and finally intelligence., It can therefore, I suggest, be equated in some way with the idea of The Spirit in a trinitarian model, and this 'Spirit' in my suggested 40K context is the Empyrean, The Warp, the Realm of Chaos. I would like to close by again saying that the above is not my explanation or understanding of what the Christian One-in-Three/Three-in-One perception of God is, rather it is my using a 'three separate aspects thatv are also indivisible and are One' paradox to exprerss in Theosophic terms the relation I would suggest (just for fun reasons) between pure warp (potential), Materium (actuality), and the Immaterium/Empyrean (the shifting grey 'front' between the two).
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 23, 2004 18:14:34 GMT -5
Grrr... Come the revolution... Remembering, of course, that it is also mentioned as a period of architectural influence suggesting quite readily that there are other non-gothic imagery, and thereby philosophical schools of thought, out there... Thank god. (which of course is usually the only perspective that counts) I would say, as previously, that while we must use the scientific method in application to the 40k universe - it being used to actually make sense to senselessness, form to formlessness, yada yada - we must not go overtly down the route of explaining everything with modern theories or ideas, regardless of how hokey they are. I, for one, am not averse to using psueudo-science or even abandoning it and looking to the 'laws of magic' used in various game systems... For me? Psuedo-science couching occult metaphysics and 'laws of magic' are the way forwards... that and 'holographic universe', which I freely admit to being overtly influenced by in terms of image and then abandoning when it got too down the realms of scientific oddity. I actually made psuedo-science reference to the Warp Zone being the 'reduction in stellar density', with a variable horizon dependent upon local storms in my early and 'primitive' formulation of the warp... Ships would bounch along the 'event horizon'... Interesting parallels... Though as with 'bubble theory' I'm want to attribute "everything" in the 40k universe to the latest theory because someone finds it cool... Problem with description there... the warp zone is seen as the point from which precipitation is easier. If you 'approach' that then, for most people, you're actually making things easier. I know what you're saying, but just mentioning this for future discussion... And my own often stated and well-lamented theories on how the warp is structured... Kant meets phenomenology... <shudder> Or not at all. That is kinda the point of it... I'm afraid I'm overtly swayed by consensual determination of reality... Truth isn't really a function of the immaterium, though. As you say, only state is. Though acts predictably as one 'approaches' consensual reality. There really is just too much movement in dreams vs. reality, the undertides of subconsciousness, etc. Non-conceived reality merely becomes consensual subconsciousness, just as conceived reality is consensual, collective, consciousness. (Erm, quotation system getting a bit wiggy... MvS might have said the above... won't know until I see this thing posted!) Again, I'm still all jiggy with the fact that consciousness and subconsciousness are absolutes... kinda the 'yin' and 'yang' that define everything. Form and formlessness. Shape and shapelessness. Matterium and immaterium. If you want, Chaos and Order. They all arise out of the interaction of 'mind', not mind out of something else... The whole energy-mass (ish) gig, as discussed a number of years ago. LOL... Potential Reality --> Immaterium --> Matterium = Realms of Chaos --> Warp --> Matterium = Deep Umbra --> Near Umbra --> Consensual Reality <grin> I'm once again reminded of Adams and the "Infinite Improbability Drive" which defined all places as a single point, though a very big point since you had to account for sign-posts. Mystics have been saying this in another way for some time: "As above, so below..." No, no, no... The divine, benign and malign are all within and without us, the creators of, well, everything... You don't have to worry about that here, MvS. If I have some rapidly shouting/flaming about you aggressively attacking their belief structure that person will be automatically banned regardless of their previous status (if it came down to that). Ergo above statement... No, the one before the last one!
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Post by Destecado on Sept 24, 2004 13:05:20 GMT -5
I would say, as previously, that while we must use the scientific method in application to the 40k universe - it being used to actually make sense to senselessness, form to formlessness, yada yada - we must not go overtly down the route of explaining everything with modern theories or ideas, regardless of how hokey they are. I, for one, am not averse to using psueudo-science or even abandoning it and looking to the 'laws of magic' used in various game systems... I don’t think that I have gone overboard on explaining the theoretical operation of warp engines. While using some theories about the mechanics of how they work, to give a frame of reference, I still think it is vague enough to allow several interpretations. The zero point field need not enter into an “Imperial” discussion of the operation of warp engines. At one time it was thought that the sound barrier was a physical barrier in the sky which could not be broken. Warp engines can be thought of allowing a ship to pierce a similar barrier that exists in space to allow the ship to circumvent normal laws and travel faster than the speed of light. So warp engines allow ships to pierce the “light barrier” We could also just as easily equate the warp with hyperspace as used in Babylon 5 (and other science fiction stories). I actually made psuedo-science reference to the Warp Zone being the 'reduction in stellar density', with a variable horizon dependent upon local storms in my early and 'primitive' formulation of the warp... Ships would bounce along the 'event horizon'... Interesting parallels. Though as with 'bubble theory' I'm want to attribute "everything" in the 40k universe to the latest theory because someone finds it cool... I did not propose this theory because I found it “cool”. I have put a lot of time and effort into trying to explain (with corroborating data) a possibility of how things may work. Your view that I am trying to explain “everything” in the 40k universe with one theory could be right. Is it not equally as possible though, that I am testing the theory against all possible permutations in order to verify that it is viable working model which can be used as a framework to tie other concepts together? If a theory is proven by three concepts, yet contradicts ten others then I agree it is not valid. The idea is to compare the theory to the data (in this case the fluff) and verify where it is accurate and where it is not. By identifying those areas where the theory is “out of synch with the data, modifications to the original theory can be made (as long as they do not create contradictions or invalidate other parts of the theory). If you wish to discount this as my going with the “rule of cool” that is your prerogative. Problem with description there... the warp zone is seen as the point from which precipitation is easier. If you 'approach' that then, for most people, you're actually making things easier. I know what you're saying, but just mentioning this for future discussion... Let me rephrase what I was saying for the sake of clarity. The closer into the system you are, the greater the density of the zero point field or what ever you wish to term the barrier between reality and the warp. If a ship were to make a jump (emergency jump or not) from within the warp zone, the singularity the ship would need to generate would need to be stronger than if the ship was jumping from a “safe distance” (beyond the warp zone). The warp zone of course is different depending on the size of the ship jumping through. Some of this has to do with the size of the vessel, but what is also important is the size of the singularity that must be generated. The greater the size of the aperture, the more energy required. I'm afraid I'm overtly swayed by consensual determination of reality... Unfortunately this brings us to the chicken or the egg conundrum. While I agree that consensual determination shapes a reality, the consciousnesses that form that consensus grow and evolve within that given reality. If intelligent minds that shape the reality do not grow until later, we are left with the problem of how a state or a reality first forms. There are a couple of possible scenarios. There are intelligences within the warp (or void) these beings exist without form in the warp, because they embody all possibilities of form (or none as pointed out by Kage). It is perhaps their very thoughts that give rise to realities (i.e. the genesis description of let there be light). For those that are uncomfortable with this concept of a supreme being who sets it all in motion (whose presence or absence at a later time I leave up to others to argue), there is the possibility of random oscillations in the electromagnetic waves of the warp creating a point of density. This would be similar to two particles slamming into each other and fusing. This process of fusion might take place millions of times every second within the warp. Most of the fused particles remain small or are broken apart by subsequent collisions with other particles. In a few cases, the fusion begins to accumulate other particles and grows in size. When it reaches a certain density, it begins to take on a specific form (sate of being). This is a beginning of a reality which over time grows and defines itself. Eventually sentient life develops (of course not in all cases) and those sentient being further define and shape that reality. There are possibly more explanations, but that is all that I can think of off the top of my head.
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Post by Destecado on Sept 24, 2004 13:05:47 GMT -5
Though acts predictably as one 'approaches' consensual reality. There really is just too much movement in dreams vs. reality, the undertides of subconsciousness, etc. I never said it didn’t. In fact I agreed with this idea. The near warp (the area of the warp near consensual reality) is shaped or more to the point “warped” by consensual reality. It only stands to reason that some of the laws of that reality should also carry over or be “echoed” in the near warp. Of course, these echoes of reality are not constant through the near warp. It is therefore necessary to have a Geller Field to allow the technology and the biology which is dependant on that reality to continue working while in the warp. Non-conceived reality merely becomes consensual subconsciousness, just as conceived reality is consensual, collective, consciousness. (Erm, quotation system getting a bit wiggy... MvS might have said the above... won't know until I see this thing posted!) Actually, it was MvS. Again, I'm still all jiggy with the fact that consciousness and subconsciousness are absolutes... kinda the 'yin' and 'yang' that define everything. Form and formlessness. Shape and shapelessness. Matterium and immaterium. If you want, Chaos and Order. They all arise out of the interaction of 'mind', not mind out of something else... I never said they were absolutes. I utilized some of the terms used by MvS in order to place some of the concepts I was expressing into a similar context for frame of reference. I’ve stated how I perceive the relationship between reality and the warp in other threads, but I’ll stated it here again for clarity. When broke down to the most basic state, all objects can be expressed as pure energy. This energy is bound up in the bonds between particles that make up atoms which in turn are bonded with other atoms to make molecules, which are the building blocks of all matter. In its normal state Energy will attempt to exist in it’s most basic form. It will also attempt to achieve homeostasis (uniformity). Energy in this state can be said to be formless. Much like stem cells that have not yet differentiated and can therefore be used to grow any cells in the body, this undifferentiated energy has the “potential” to become anything. This “sea” of energy is not motionless. It ripples with waves caused by the movement of the energized particles of which it is comprised. Sometimes these waves can form discernable patterns out of this undifferentiated energy. These patterns or systems may interact with each other. The interactions of these systems can create a cascade effect, in which more complex systems grow out of them. Not all interaction between systems leads to a reality. The energized particles still wish to flow back towards uniformity and their most basic state. This tendency can be thought of as entropy. For every proto-reality that grows and expands, there are probably millions that fall apart from the internal entropy of their systems and dissolve back into the “sea” of energy. With all of the possible potentialities that exist, it would be difficult (if not unrealistic) to define the continued growth of a reality. Some may accrete new energy in much the same manner as a planet forms. Others might have a sudden inrush of energy as energized particles are drawn into it by the interactions of its systems. This great inrush of energy might be how the big bang occurred. The interactions between systems give rise to more complex systems and therefore more complex interactions. The growth of a reality is an evolutionary process. Eventually a reality can give rise to sentient life, which can in turn learn how to manipulate the energy from which it is created. They may also be able to “transcend” a given reality and create new realities of their own or become one again with the sea of formless energy, existing as formless consciousnesses. No, no, no... The divine, benign and malign are all within and without us, the creators of, well, everything... By touch of the “divine” I was merely saying we hade the ability to create and order the reality around us. Though raised Catholic (and a survivor of Catholic schools), I do not ascribe to many of their view points. I used the creation myth espoused by Christianity, because it is one of the most widely known. I could have just as easily described the world being created from the remains of a dead giant or one of the other myriad creation myths that exist within the cultures of the world. It was an attempt to show that even Theological explanations for the formation of our reality could be explained in terms of our discussion instead of falling back on the old Christian stand by….”it’s a mystery” or “its god’s will”.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 24, 2004 15:13:55 GMT -5
Apologies for the confusion with regards to the quotation system... Multi-tasking has its problems, as does replying to multiple posts at once. Out of interest, why did you feel the need to quote yourself? I don’t think that I have gone overboard on explaining the theoretical operation of warp engines. My bad, I was making a generic statement on intent not in specific interpretation. It's just that you brought up the specific phrase that was of use in doing this... You will note that I say that your science fits with pseudo-science previously described and, also, 'magical' theory. Bit of hand-waving, yes, but was kind of moving in the same direction as you... Or you as me but for different reasons... or whatever. Not everything is an attack that needs to be defended! I did not propose this theory because I found it “cool”. Please see the above, Destecado. Do not confuse my own lack of time in converting things into modern theories means that I mind you doing it. Indeed, I laud you for it as I have mentioned elsewhere. A generic statement that we must not feel constrained by science does not equate to a condemnation of what you're doing... Again, I find it interesting that what you're proposing is (ish) consistent with previous hand-waved explanations. That is all. All further references to an interpretation where I'm attacking you will henceforth be ignored as misinterpretation and apologies if I gave that sense... Apart from... If you wish to discount this as my going with the “rule of cool” that is your prerogative. LOL... Something being 'cool' (horrendous word) in no way means that it conforms to the "Rule of Cool", which somewhat amusingly is all about not really being that cool. Kinda. ;D Let me rephrase what I was saying for the sake of clarity. The closer into the system you are, the greater the density of the zero point field or what ever you wish to term the barrier between reality and the warp. Yes, that is what I said. I merely pointed out that the confusion may arise with some... The warp zone of course is different depending on the size of the ship jumping through. Given the warp zone is normally attached to a feature relating to the 'system' - energy/mass, population, whatever - then how is the population/whatever of a ship going to significantly contribute to this? The greater the size of the aperture, the more energy required. Despite the fact that you seem to believe that I'm disagree with you on this, I'm actually not. So no arguments from me on this one. Unfortunately this brings us to the chicken or the egg conundrum. Yep. Although surely only if you determine that reality is the natural product or crucible of consciousness... or a byproduct or something. If undifferentiated singularity is the 'natural' state and a change to the equilibrium results to the current 'reality' in - yes, somewhat twee - "trying to undertand itself"? If intelligent minds that shape the reality do not grow until later, we are left with the problem of how a state or a reality first forms. That's the point, yes. But see the rather fragmented comments, above. For those that are uncomfortable with this concept of a supreme being who sets it all in motion... I'm reminded of the WW/MtA concept of the "avatar" and what it is formed from... I never said it didn’t. In fact I agreed with this idea. And I never said that you didn't! I was merely putting it into my own terms. Remebering that thus far much of this thread is actually, from my perspective, putting into peoples' own words concepts that I've previously bandied around and discussed. It's the differences that make some interesting points, though... It is therefore necessary to have a Geller Field to allow the technology and the biology which is dependant on that reality to continue working while in the warp. As before, I have always been rather unfond of the idea of a Geller Field as a "reality stabiliser". I see little overt purpose for it and every reason that it should be ignored as thus. Of course, it doesn't significantly affect the price of bacon so I leave it... By touch of the “divine” I was merely saying we hade the ability to create and order the reality around us. So was I, seemingly.
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