MvS
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Post by MvS on Sept 17, 2004 21:23:36 GMT -5
To call the Immaterium a ‘realm’, or even ‘place’, is I believe far too limiting a description. I believe that the Immaterium certainly has the potential to be a place, state or thing, but only because I believe that the Immaterium is in itself infinite potential, and therefore encompasses and contains all possibilities (including that of being a place and realm), but is at the same time not only or ‘just’ a place, state or thing. Indeed, to ask ‘where’ the Immaterium is would be akin to asking ‘where’ infinity is, or ‘when’ eternity is. One could point absolutely anywhere and be correct, but always in the most limited sense.
Yet if the Immaterium is not a place and has no dimension and no comprehensible positioning within the multiverse, how is it that some mortals can and have entered the Immaterium while alive and still in their physical bodies? That I cannot answer. All I can say with any degree of certainty is that the Immaterium certainly does exist (I have seen, and use, its energies daily) and that there is definitely a gateway ‘into’ the Immaterium at the northernmost point of these mortal lands.
Some have theorised that to step through those gates is to not ‘go’ anywhere at all, but to instead retreat into one’s own dreaming mind. Some say that to ‘enter’ the Immaterium is in fact a process of making oneself spiritually inside-out (rather like a metaphysical version of a snake eating its own tail). Others say that to pass through the Gates of Chaos is to enter the collective waking dream of the mortal universe, and is an abandonment of all fact and certainty through which one becomes in oneself a paradox or myth. Others again insist that beyond the Chaos Gates is absolute uncertainty; absolute and unfulfilled potential waiting for a catalyst so that it can realise itself.
Those who believe this last option (and I count myself as one of them), look upon the Immaterium as the ultimate facilitator of things, but not a ‘thing’ in itself. I believe that once a being or object from the Materium passes through the Chaos Gate, it acts as a catalyst to the raw potential that I believe the Immaterium to be, giving it something to react with. But because (at its most basic) the Immaterium has no physical or ‘actual’ reality of its own, it is just the manifestation of the possibility and potential for change and growth (or ‘Potential Reality’) within the Materium (or ‘Actual Reality’), one could say that anything at all from the Materium, no matter how abstract, is more ‘definite’ than the Immaterium is.
This is, I believe, the reason why the Immaterium is thought to be a kind of collective mind for the mortal universe. Indeed, it is commonly held to be the repository of all mortal thoughts, emotions, memory fragments and beliefs of all beings that exist within the Materium. For it could be said that the most immaterial things to be generated within the Materium are thoughts and emotions – they cannot be measured, captured or contained – in fact they are so diffused that they are seen as abstracts more than things. Yet it is precisely because of this that I believe they find their way so readily into the Immaterium. Thought and emotion are the least ‘real’ things within our world (being as they have no mass and dimension of their own), and yet conversely are the two things with the greatest power and influence over intelligent life. It is by merit of this that I believe they manage to slip through the cracks in our physical reality of the Materium and are drawn to the non-physical reality of the Immaterium.
But, as stated above, even thought and emotion are more definite and real than the Potential Reality of the Immaterium, and because thought and emotion are the two most readily available ‘things’ from the Materium to be found within the Immaterium, they have become the two greatest and most readily available compounds that the catalyst of the Immaterium’s unrealised potential can react with.
But what of those times that the Immaterium’s energies find their way into the Materium? Within the Materium, the potential to change from one state to another is locked within every single thing that exists. Yet within the lawbound realm of the Materium this potential is limited along relatively specific lines – an acorn can grow only into an oak, not a bird. But magic can change all of this. For magic, by its very nature, picks apart the natural laws of the Materium, and this is, I believe, because it is the force of raw potential itself. With magic flowing through it, the acorn I spoke of could grow and change into almost anything, as it is saturated with the momentum of raw potential.
Yet everything that enters and exists within the Materium is bound by laws and restrictions, even the broiling potential that is magic. As the wholly inexplicable forces of the Immaterium seep through the Chaos Gates, it is given a loose purpose and form, dividing into eight distinct parts – although precisely how and why this might happen I do not know. Those of us blessed with the spirit-sight can see this energy as layered mists of colour, building into boiling, turbulent clouds and multihued storms where the barriers between the Immaterium and Materium are particularly tenuous, as indeed it is far to the north around the Chaos Wastes.
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MvS
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Post by MvS on Sept 17, 2004 22:09:52 GMT -5
Hm... that's all I've got with me just now (I'm still in LA).
Reading back through it all, it doesn't seem amazingly relevant after all, and it ends rather abruptly too (it isn't the complete version).
The piece goes on to theorise about the various 'depths' of the Warp - although not meaning that the Warp is an ocean, but rather that the more likely or possible something becomes (for whatever direct or indirect reason) the more 'real it becomes.
It stop being totally unfocussed and undending potential, and starts being more and more focussed - more and more possible. So in this respect, the 'level' of the Warp that intelligent mortals can step into will always be those 'parts' that are more certain - 'parts' that have had the infinite wings of their potentiality clipped, and have become more focussed in their likelihood.
So to use a Warhammer analogy (although the Eye of Chaos might serve equally well), those 'parts' of the Warp that are perceivable by mortals creatures in the Materium, and are overlapping with the physical attributes of the Materium, have some level of Actual Reality to them. They can be seen, walked across, that kind of thing. Weird things may still happen there, but generally it is perceivable and quantifiable within reason.
The deeper one travels into the Warp, the further one moves away from Actual Reality into Potential Reality, the fewer certainties there are. The fewer laws there are. The less definable, quantifiable and viewable Existence there is.
Where the Warp 'spills' over into the Materium there is definitely direction of sorts, and time (although it works far less certainly). This isn't, I think, because the Warp has direction or time (it being infinite, unrealised potential in my thesis), but because the Actual Reality of the Materium, with its laws and physical existence, and along with the limited perceptions and wild and ncertain expectations of living creatures, gives loose form to the the 'close' parts of the Warp where it overlaps with the Materium.
I try to tie this with the idea of observation altering reality - or in this case, observations from Actual Reality altering, or even creating, certainties of and in Potential Reality. All Potentiality leans towards being realise, while all that is realised leans towards a change of state and therefore (I think) potential.
The 'part' of the Warp that I think is 'closest' to the Materium is in fact the 'parts' that have become a dumping ground for expectation, perception, abstracts and so on. So 'Chaos' (in the sense of daemons and Gods, and Hells and Heavens) are in fact all things that have been given an Actual Existence by intelligent mortals, but because they are not things that can be part of the cut and dry quantifiable processes of the Materium (Actual Reality), they do not exist actually within or frame of reference, ie: the perceivable universe.
But also, because gods and daemons, heavens and hells are realised (in the sense that they have been conceived or dreamt), they are not infinite, unfocussed, unrealised, 'raw' potential either - so they are not 'pure' Warp. They are something in between. They occupy a metaphysical space (but a space none-the-less) alongside our own, 'attached' on one 'side' to the Materium, and kind of gradually fading out on the other 'side' as it drifts more and more into the totally unrealised and non-perceived possibility of Potential Reality (pure Warp).
So for me, Warp Travel skirts through this 'closest' (or perhaps more easily perceived/fractionally more tangible) part of the Warp - that part that is Chaotic and broiling with realised impossibilities, semi-realised possibilities, and all kinds of emotional and intellectual; debris/pollution from the matter and psychic/psychological activity of the Materium.
Although I don't want to emphasise the Sea of Souls notion, one could say that Actual Reality (the Materium) swims deeps within Potential Reality (the Warp), and immediately around Actual Reality are countless trillions of whorls, vortices, wakes, not to mention bits and pieces that break off from Actual Reality like analogical skin cells, oils, and other debris.
It's this aura of disturbance and crap that 'surrounds' (not literally you understand) the Materium that is, I think, the Warp that can be navigated by mortals, as it has a correlation to the Materium. The whorls can be, to a degree, predicted because the motion of the Materium can be to a degree predicted.
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MvS
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Post by MvS on Sept 17, 2004 22:22:46 GMT -5
...and feel free to scream and ban me from these forums is all this writing is just too much... I think that (to follow a vaguely Moorcockian vision), if a mortal were able to 'jump', 'dive' (whatever) 'deeper' into the Warp, past those 'areas' that are immediately around the Materium, then there would truly be no realised time or dimension, or matter, or momentum - only the infinite potential for all these things. Then the question would have to be asked: what now? Would the physical presence and perception on the mortal suddenly act as a catalyst for the infinite, unrealised potential, and a whole new univers or frame of reference be created? Would it be controllable? Perhaps the most 'powerful' Navigators (or ancient Eldar equivalent, or Old Ones) could dip ever deeper into this 'pure' depth of Potential Reality (Warp), and impose their own considered perceptions and wishes upon it. So instead of having to travel the equivalent of a few hundred thousand miles for two months within the 'closer' part of the Warp (full of those vortices and tribulations), to be able to pass several million miles in Real Space (the Materium), perhaps the Old Ones (or whatever) could dip into the 'pure' Warp where dimension and time meant absolutely nothing, and impose their own distance and time upon it - effectively leaving the Warp no time after they entered it trillions of light years away in the Materium... I'm suggesting that within 'pure' Potential Reality (Warp) anything can happen if you have the will and mind to make it. So instead of having to deal with warp tides, storms, daemons and all that shebang, you just 'enter' with an already definite and preconceived notion of exactly where you want to end up, and that is exactly where you end up an instant later. I'll stop now. My thoughts are getting pretty warped and confused. Been a long day. Please someone make some comments, and I'll come back to this thread when my thoughts are more ordered and I can explore/explain them more clearly...
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Post by Dazo on Sept 18, 2004 4:39:04 GMT -5
Wow, or should I say oww my eyes hurt, kage is gonna love you. I only made it half way through reading from the last post but I happen to agree entirly with your take of the warp. To an extent it mirrors my own very closely. It is not so much moorcockian I would say as planescapian, you views of the warp corelate to a high degree with their views of limbo. I actually agree with this aswell So would you say the warp is an extension of mind, or an integral part. Is a persons brain like a micro eye of terror with warp/real space overlap. The celts had the belief that the other world was a upside down version of the real world, like a reflection in water. I would say this a good annalogy for the warp and real space, with a persons mind being the link with their shadow in the warp. So as man phisically alters the world around him then so would his shadow self alter the world in which it dwells. Oh yeah any chance of introducing yourself, go here [ftp]http://kagemat.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=ChatGeneral&action=display&thread=1078757317[/ftp]
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Post by Philip on Sept 18, 2004 7:58:41 GMT -5
Hey M, Glad you could make it! P AddedGreat stuff M, Very twisty, very Tzeentch ;D To further twist it, Void, is a ‘something’ yet filled with ‘nothing’. It is a concept breaker (as a mortal mind will see the ‘obvious’ and may not jump), it would be nice for you to take it into consideration, add in a twist, and to and really drive home the point. Breaking all common mortal concepts (as with breaking ‘nothingness’) would help this; ‘Filled with potential’ strings to mind, the essence of raw warp. Aside from that, very nice indeed, and just to make sure I understand you correctly: The Warp as you describe it seems to be the movement of the universe through time, with the warp as a ‘bow wave’? Therefore: In human turns, when they are thinking of possibilities and plans they are actually working with the warp, or rather the warp is their thoughts. Hence the invention (or any invention) of guns is a possibility that existed in the warp and made manifest by a human’s mind and their actions. As reality pushes through time, all the threads of the warp are woven together as they become ‘actual reality’. In answer to this question; I think that (to follow a vaguely Moorcockian vision), if a mortal were able to 'jump', 'dive' (whatever) 'deeper' into the Warp, past those 'areas' that are immediately around the Materium, then there would truly be no realised time or dimension, or matter, or momentum - only the infinite potential for all these things. Then the question would have to be asked: what now? I would guess the person would ‘unravel’ into potential possibilities… I’m I getting you idea? Is this a universe based on the twisting of words (philosophical) or have I missed the point? Awaiting enlightenment!
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Post by Destecado on Sept 18, 2004 11:54:36 GMT -5
That is quite allot of information you've given MvS. I'm still trying to decipher all of the concepts that you put forward. I will reserve commenting on it until I have had a chance to fully digest it. In the mean time, I wanted to add my own take on the nature of the warp. This is based of research that I have been doing for the discussion of the Zero Point Field. This model is based on the concept of a multitude of realities and an open or at least semi permeable universe.
Several of the articles and papers that I have read dealing with the zero point field describe it as a vast sea of energy. Rather than being a vast sea I view the zero point field as the shallow waters close into land, while the warp is the vast oceans that surround it. This vast sea of energy not only interacts with our reality, but with all others that it touches upon.
The zero point field is the boundary between our reality and the warp. Zero Point Field theory states that the vacuum of space contains randomly fluctuating electromagnetic fields which are equated with the zero point energy field. The fields are documented, but the question remains, from where do these randomly fluctuating electromagnetic fields arise.
I believe that it is the interaction of the zero point field with the warp that originates these electromagnetic wave, much like waves are transmitted on the ocean. This relationship is also not one way. The electromagnetic fluctuations of the zero point field as well as the secondary electromagnetic fields created by the interaction of charged particles with the zero point field resonate back into the warp.
One of the basic concepts of classical electrodynamics is that a fluctuating charge emits an electromagnetic field. These electromagnetic waves impinge upon (collide with) charged, point-like (positively / negatively charged) particles, causing them to randomly oscillate.
Since a fluctuating charge emits an electromagnetic field. It should therefore hold true that the charged particles which oscillate due to electromagnetic fluctuations in the zero point field must also generate their own electromagnetic fields. The result is that all charges in the universe will emit secondary electromagnetic fields in response to their interaction with the primary field (the zero point field).
I theorize that these "return" vibrations to the warp are what we interpret as warp currents and eddies. The interaction between the secondary fields (discussed above) displays an unusual property. Between any two charged particles there arises an (weaker) attractive force, separate and distinct from an ordinary attractor (positive / negative charge). The greater the density of secondary electromagnetic fields, the greater the attractive force. This attractive force would be defined as gravity.
Star systems and other “massive” objects in real space would therefore send a greater number of “return” electromagnetic waves into the warp. If the planets were inhabited, the number of electromagnetic fields would be greater still. Rather than being the exact mirror image of MsV’s concept, they would be more like echoes; half formed or distorted by the other electromagnetic waves intersecting in the warp.
The density of the zero point field in the vicinity of "massive" objects increases. The reason for this is due to the greater number of oscillating point-like charges that comprise the matter. The number of oscillating charges is directly proportional the number of secondary fields. The greater the number of secondary electromagnetic fields there are, the greater the total energy density of the Zero Point field in the vicinity of those charges.
This density is what creates the “warp zone” around planetary systems. The greater the density of the zero point field, the harder it is to jump transition between the warp and real space and vice versa. This also goes back to how I see Warp engines working.
WARP ENGINE THEORY
The speed of light also decreases as the density of the Zero Point Field increase. This mimics the effects of gravity upon light in the General Relativity model. Instead of being effected by gravity the curvature of light and its decrease in speed are due to refraction. The velocity of light is inversely proportional to the refractive index of the medium it travels through. The greater abundance of charged particles and the increase in density of the Zero Point Field cause an increase in the refractive index, thus light is deflected. Calculations of the deflection are very close to those achieved through General Relativity.
I theorize that warp engines generate a field that instead of increasing the density of the zero point field, decrease it even beyond the levels found in the interstellar vacuum. The Zero Point Field is for the most part homogenous (uniform) in its density. It is only near “massive” systems that its density increases. This may actually be where entropy creeps into systems.
Unless acted upon by outside forces, most systems will tend toward diffusion. Diffusion is the physical process in which a substance tends to spread steadily from regions of high concentration to regions of lower concentration. It is also a macroscopic manifestation of the Brownian motion occurring on the microscopic level.
Explanation of Terms:
Brownian motion is the basis behind Kinetic theory on which several concepts of Newtonian Physics are based. It is defined as the random fluctuations of small particles suspended in a medium due to bombardment by molecules obeying a Maxwellian velocity distribution.
Maxwellian Velocity Distribution: In the context of the Kinetic Molecular Theory of Gases, a gas contains a large number of particles in rapid motions. Each particle has a different speed, and each collision between particles changes the speeds of the particles. An understanding of the properties of the gas requires an understanding of the distribution of particle speeds.
The random oscillation caused in charged particles by the fluctuating electromagnetic waves emitted by the Zero Point Field are very similar to Brownian motion. It becomes a “tug of war” between the internal kinetic energy of a system, which is trying to “spread” it apart and the attractive force between the charged particles which is trying to hold the system together.
Since a system will strive to become homogenous, how do you create a decrease in density in a give area. This is where an outside force is required. The 40k universe has one of the best examples of this phenomenon in warp storms. Warp storms create enormous fluctuations in the warp, which in turn would cause fluctuations within the Zero Point Field which would affect the secondary electromagnetic fields generated by charged particles.
Look at the turmoil created when minor fluctuations in the magnetosphere of earth (which is an electromagnetic field) occur. Electrical systems are thrown out of synch, communications is disrupted, birds migratory patterns become confused....A warp storm may be something similar, but on a much larger scale. Taken to the extreme, you end up with structures like the maelstrom.
These are systems that exhibit similarities to hurricanes. The lowest pressure in a hurricane is found in the eye. Similarly with the maelstrom the lowest density of the zero point field will probably be found at its center. This drop off in density weakens the barrier the zero point field creates between our reality and the warp.
Warp engines work by creating a similar drop off in density, but in a controlled manner. The way this is done is by creating an artificial singularity (artificial black hole). This is a special type of black hole, which is called a Kerr Black hole or a rotating black hole. The singularity rather than being at the center and crushing the ship instead forms into a ring due to its rotation. The density drop off inside the ring is enough to create a gap or extreme weakening of the Zero Point Field. After the ship dives through, the singularity dissipates and the Zero Point Field rushes back in to fill the gap (attempts to return to homogeneity).
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Post by MvS on Sept 18, 2004 14:09:57 GMT -5
Some very interesting responses.
Lets see if I can clarify in bullet points (to myself asd much as anything else) what I have meant in my previous posts.
1. I am trying to propose a vision of the Warp that is more metaphysical, philosophical and perhaps therefore more esoteric than the excellent quasi-science postulations as to its nature.
2. I have proposed that 40K Existence is the one all-encompassing Reality that 'contains' every process, actuality, potential, possibility, dimension, measure and momentum. There is no 'parrallel' to this model of Existence - it is not just the universe, it is absolutely everything.
3. Although strictly speaking it is impossible to do so within this model of 40K Existence, for convenience of description I suggest that Existence can be observed as two completely symbiotic and intertwined opposites - Actual Reality and Potential Reality.
4. Actual Reality is everything that has some kind of realised existence, whether as energy, matter, dimension, momentum or concept.
5. Potential Reality is completely unrealised, with only the potential for realised existence. It has no dimension, time, matter or definable energy. It is not a 'void' because it has no real dimensions to itself. It is not 'nothing' because that is an oxymoron: 'nothing' cannot exist, or else it is something. Potential Reality is the infinite possibility for anything and everything to come into existence - to be.
6. In this model, then, Existence is the interaction between the realised and the unrealised. Between what IS and what IS POTENTIALLY. Perhaps, therefore, I see it in the 40K context as the interaction between 'Be' and 'Become' - although neither has meaning or existence without the other, so they are, in effect, two 'sides' of exactly the same thing.
Damn... just seen the time! I've got to run! Why now!?
I'll continue writing in a few hours.
MvS
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Post by Dazo on Sept 18, 2004 16:27:44 GMT -5
Ok, but use quotes rather than bullets, its friendlier Explain slaanesh as well. why did it take the eldar to create a pleasure god, what was it about man that meant we couldn't do it. According to the fluff we "do" it far more often than they do, and theres more of us. Is it because we experience more "good" emotions with pleasure, and that held it in balance, and prevented it from becoming a seperate entity
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MvS
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Post by MvS on Sept 18, 2004 20:33:18 GMT -5
Ok, but use quotes rather than bullets, its friendlier Quote who...? I'm not trying to be unfriendly, I just have to examine these things in a particular order, which if I try to do by quoting previous posters and answering their questions might come out a bit jumbled. I'll do the bullet points first then try to answer direct comments. So what is the Warp in my model...? 1. The Warp is not one place, and indeed is not really a place at all. 2. 'Pure' Warp is, in my notional framework, pure unrealised potential. This is where the leap of faith is required. Potential is not an energy that can be measured, although near infinite amounts of energy can be got out of almost anything if its full potential is unlocked. Potential is simply a word then (in our universe) used to describe the possibility for change - whether it be state, positioning of momentum. I say that in the 40K imagery Potential has a kind of metaphysical presence as more than just a concept. It is the pure 'energy' (although it is not truly energy) that is warp and The Warp. 3. This Potential Reality (Warp) has no dimension to itself, although it permeates and is a fundamental part of all dimensions in existence. It has no measureable energy of itself, but it is the prime cause of all energy in Existence. It has no time of itself, although it is present in all points of time and in the changing of one state into another. So where is the Warp? Where is everywhere? The Warp or Potential Reality is an omnipresent aspect of all Actual Reality or Materium. 4. If that's the case, how can vessels 'drop into' the Warp and travel through it? I suggest that 'between' the realised and unrealised (or potential) aspects of Existence there are near infinite shades of grey - a near 'realm' or 'dimension' with near infinite levels and connections where all points between actual and potential, realised and unrealised, possible and impossible exist in a a kind of sliding scale. 5. This dimension is the least 'realised' of all dimesnions in existence, and is the closest to being only a potential reality rather than an actual one. The laws that govern it are so loose and tenuous that they change, freeze, collapse or recreate at the slightest provocation. This is the realm, I propose, where the least tangible and quantifiable energy of all energies in the 40K universe leaks. That energy, I suggest, comprises of thought and feeling - two things that are the driving force of all sentient and quasi-sentient life, but are non-detectable on any measuring device and appear to have no wavelength as an energy. Despite this, I say that in the 40k universe they are 'real' energies. 6. Because these psychic and emotive energies are the lowest level realised and existing energies in Actual Reality, I believe that they filter through the cracks or gather in pools along with the highest level (most realised or most probable) aspects of the otherwise dimensionless Potential Reality. It similar the Yin-Yang idea - two opposites, each with the seed of on in the other. The seed of pure potential in realised or Actual Reality can be seen in the fact that all things within Actual Reality can change state in some way, so the seed of Actual and Realised reality within Potential Reality is what...? I suggest, somewhat loosely, concept. 7. Concepts are the mental constructs intelligent beings within the Materium (actualy Reality) use to define, explore, challenge and build upon Existence as it stands. Actual Reality - tyhe Materium - is packed full of potential regardless of whether there are intelligent beings within it to perceive it. However, intelligence allows us to unlock from things and processes within the Materium potentialities that might not be unlocked without our observation and interference. So I suggest that the greatest tool that intelligent life has - the thing that makes intelligence what it is - the ability to conceptualise ideas and abstracts, is not only the most difficult 'thing' to quantify (how to you measure conceptualisation?), but is also the Yin-Yang 'seed' of actual Reality (Materium) in Potential Reality (Warp). 8. So just as I suggest that Existence (in the 40K context) is the interaction between actual and potential, I suggest that the 'part' of the Warp (Potential Reality) that is in any way present, quantifiable, viewable, and/or tangible, is the 'part' that is the 'seed' of the Materium - the actual existence of concept, thought, emotive deliverances and so on existing as more than just notions inside mortals heads, giving unending dynamism by the fact that it is situated 'within' non-realised existence - Potential Reality/ pure Warp. 9. So to expand, The Warp which we can fly through is in fact, I think, not actually pure warp. "pure' Warp is simply completely the unrealised potential for anything to happen, be or become. It is not a place or a thing as such, but is the source permetation and catalyst of all that Is. The Warp, in my books, is more like a half-way dimension, not entirely 'actual' (in the sense that it obeys few laws that aren't subject to continuous and often catastrophic change), but certainly 'real' and existent in the sense that more than just unrealised and potential. 10. So, for me, The Warp that can be 'entered' is in fact the Realm of Chaos, the place of dreams and thoughts and daemons and gods. It is the repository of all psychic (thought & emotive) energy in Existence. It is a dimension (of sorts) where the boundaries between a concept and the thing it conceives break down. It is a dimension where concepts like notions like logic, perserverence, fear, joy, love, hate and so are real in the sense that they are not just observable in their effects (as is the case within the Materium), but are observable (in a metaphyical sense) in pure and independant form (of sorts). It is a place where potential starts to gain weight and presence, and although it never becomes 'actual' enough to be realised as a full part of the Materium (Actual Reality), it is definitely 'something' and therefore quantifiable or tangible in same way shape or form and no longer 'just' potential. 11. For my own purposes then, I will call The Warp (as I have described above), the Empyrean in an effort to define it from what I suggest warp is - unrealised Potential with no dimension, density, momentum or time of its own. So the Empyrean is a dimension of sorts, and is therefore detectable in a way that I would suggest pure warp (potential) is not. The Empyrean is the middle point in the bridge between actuality and potentiality, and therefore has elements of both. It can be navigated because it has some kind of form - although that form is so tenuous and broiling with potential that is desperate to become realised that it can vary at the drop of a hat depending upon who observes it, when, how, and perhaps even why. This, I suggest, is the first small step upon the road to explaining why the Empyrean 'looks' different to different Navigators and psykers, and why distances and time within the Empyrean can vary so wildly. The Empyrean is both connected to all points of the Materium simultaneously, and yet is also connected to the Materium in a more linear sense as well (ie: four metres within the Empyrean in this direction is four lightyears within the Materioum in that direction). 12. Conceivably then, in this model of the Empyrean, it could be manipulated by a being with will and perception enough so that there is as much or as little space/time discrepancy between 'entering' and 'leaving' as is desired. So a jump through the Empyrean could be instantaneous, with no perceptable time or space spent within it, or it could last for all eternity with no exit, depending upon the perceiving will or intellect. So to one Navigator, Eldar, Old One (whatever), travel through the Empyrean could be as quick as stepping through a door from one room to the next (or quicker), while to another with less control it could be a long submarine voyage through a turbulent sea full of predators. 13. This open s things up then to external pressures on voyage time through the Empyrean. Other perceptions and expectations upon the 'content' and 'distances' within the Empyrean may affect the Navigator's path. The crew, psykers in the crew and so on my also alter the nature of the Empyrean around the vessel, lengthening or shortenting (or throwing off course altogether) the journey. Also, the near-infinite sentiences 'within' the Empyrean will also have some effect upon how the times and spaces (for I think there are many) within the Empyrean flow, also adding time and/or trouble to a vessels journey through it. 14. This in turn raises interesting questions as to what the Astronomican truly is. Is it a light or sound (or whatever), or is it in fact the one absolute certainty within the uncertainty that is the Empyrean. Does its very existence impel some sort of measure of up, down, left, right, and forward and backward in time within the Empyrean? But perhaps this absolute certainty also acts as a trade off, limiting the multi-dimensional reasoning and awareness of Navigators and such like, impelling them to travel certain distances for certain lengths of time in order to travel more safely, where if there was no Astronomican they might conceivably be able to travel as fast or slow as they like depending upon their own will perception/psychic awarness or whatever. Okay, I'm running out of time again. I'll try to look at the notion of the 'pure' warp next time, as this supposedly ties in with the Star Child. DAZO: I think that a discussion as to the nature of Slaanesh might be best suited in a separate thread. For now, I'm sure there's a thread in Portent somewhere that deals with it. MvS
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 19, 2004 18:43:49 GMT -5
Brief comments... 10 days to submission and I'm so stressed that, if you could artificially produce a material that was subject to the same stress and was not breaking apart (but barely), you would be able to manufacture a space elevator out of it! (And, just in case: Shut up, 'Fenric... I don't care! ) You're automatically running into a problem of language, here. The semantics that we run into every time when one person believes something and another something else, but ultimately there really is only variation in potential and shades between the two versions. Thus with the 'warp'. For me it is all about continuum... Division is just a useful little framework which facilitates discussion. Kind of like when you're talking about the "Palaeolithic", the "Mesolithic" or whatever... Yes, they can mean something, but the categorisation is itself a product of the history of the discussion rather than a true division itself. In other words, be wary. And if you cannot answer but are certain that 'God' is a large stick of purple celery on the dark side of Venus? Which is all very interesting, but creating a 'some say' variable situation is ultimately not useful. To consistently represent something and disallow the glitches that so commonly crop up as a result of GW revision and author perspective we need a framework... This means that we need not define everything needlessly or try to define interpretation, merely that we offer a suggested approach which is consistent with everything else that we write. Kind of like 'Chicago housing' of the early 19th century in America... Been there, done that... have the t-shirt. This is, in essence, how I view the "meta-verse" but it still doesn't mean that I don't wish to offer the framework as a support to what else is produced... See the above, though I differentiate between the unconscious collective and the expressed 'reality' of that unconsciousness. I am too overtly influenced by the 'holographic concept' and MtA... Gotta love Kant. It's nice to see someone enthuse over their interpretation. If you haven't got it already, it is in essence the same one that I've been working on for some years... I tend to emphasise some things more than you, but such is the way of preference. You will note that some of the above 'discussion' includes this very premise... all about going deeper (=inside, which all gets confusing since inside=outside=non-existent) as a fragmentary to 'reality' and more to potentiality. Yep, again as previously stated. Then don't... Perpetuation of this idea is a huge red herring. If anything, you could just say that it is a colloid. That is to say it's a 'Sea of Souls' insofar as mayonnaise is a sea of suspended fat. Nah... you obviously needed to get "your intepretation" out and, from there, we can then move forwards. Yep. Yes, this was theorised above... Indeed, it is part of the 'gift of the Navigator', to be able to see/construct reality at a 'depth' not permissible with artificial means. Phenomenology... Doo-dooh du-doo-dooh... Again, this is all fairly froopy with how I have always seen things, so I'm jiggy... Well, you kinda mean like... well... the Realms of Chaos? Except it's all negotiated reality. Kant rather than pure Husserl... Or is that Heiddinger? Or Monty-Perlau? And can I remember to spell these buggers' names correctly? Self evidently not! As above: Been there, done that, have the t-shirt... Yes, he's posted my intepretation for everyone to see... the fact that it was his as well just makes it all froopy. Of course, one might argue that it was a somewhat verbose way of stating what has already been stated without reading which has gone before... But if I said that then it would be pure hypocrisy! <grin> And it is now that I point you out to the concept of the 'upper manifold'. A reminder that I get twitchy when people use the word 'celts' in such a blaise fashion. There is no such thing as the 'celts'... Surely that should be blue-green? And I've seen better... (sorry, being playful) And what has been discussed in various threads for quite some time, Phillip. Destacado... Apologies. My not replying to your post specifically was more due to an internal battle with being tired and failing miserably... With that said, however, the premise is that obviously physical reality is a byproduct of consensus. Back to Kant again. All those lovely 'standing waves' of consciousness. Indeed, pretty sure that we've discussed this before. Upper manifold as a developed idea rather than the limited pseudo-science version on a web-site I keep on meaning to delete. MtA to your hearts content. Ditto. Implicate vs. explicate reality. Ditto. Self-evidently the "Rule of Cool" and thematic armies. This is one of the glitches of the 'fluff' as widely accepted... Canonically? Because eldar feel emotions far more 'powerfully' than humans... yeah, right... how do they know!?
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 19, 2004 18:46:50 GMT -5
... Or, in confused short, the matterium is the creation of an implicate/consensual 'reality' which defines a polarity between the 'known', the 'unknown' and the shades between. It is a mirror of the MtA universe that can be, roughly, described as: Matterium (conscious) (barrier) little fragmentation < "between" < greater fragmentation (barrier) Subconscious Broadly speaking.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 20, 2004 3:48:04 GMT -5
Indeed, I had forgotten about the rule of cool, seems so obvious now, but then does'nt that make it rather pointless talking about all this. We can't really change anything GW have already done, and since their creation is so fundamentally flawed, then every thing we do or say would also be flawed. As you have said you do want the ASP to be revisionist. So to sum up further, the warp is mearly a plot device to explain all the cool things GW want to include in the wargame, and as such has no defining nature other than what is deemed cool by them. Which is somthing they keep changing. Hows that for cynesism Kage Mearly used so you would know what and whose beliefs i was refering to Point away, but I don't know what you mean by manifold, so it wouldn't do me much good. She doesnt live in the sea kage >:(TO WAR, TO WAR MY LORDS, i doubt that, i doubt that very much
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Post by zholud on Sept 20, 2004 10:58:47 GMT -5
At the moment only a brief response with main points - Nothingness reminded me of Plutarch symposiums… they try to get to the point via semantics, where nihil (Greek for nothing) made from not even a hil – hairline… meaning that nothing is thinner than thin, and so on… of course you can play out Aristotle’s that nature hates emptiness…
- Potential – I like this idea. Moreover, it quite well (sometimes too well) interlaces with Dune’s description of prescience. At the same time I cannot see, whether this metaphysics affects properties of the warp as we know it. And if not, whether we need Occam’s razor here
- Thermodynamics 2nd (IIRC) holds here? – if you take energy from the warp and channel to materium, can you finally deplete warp of saturate materium?
- Where is soul there after death/before birth? Is there more than one soul/spirit energy within this concept…
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MvS
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Post by MvS on Sept 20, 2004 15:25:45 GMT -5
I noticed. Yes, the first few posts were just sections of various Liber Chaotica books that that were cut out early in the game. They weren't written in 'my' voice but the favoured subjective voice of the character Richter Kless. Hence the reason he "...cannot say" some stuff. I, on the other hand, are more than happy to fully explore and express as many theories as leaves fall in autumn. Or thereabouts. Um... that's good. I suppose it's... nice...? that we see some of these ideas in a similar way. Do you mean that you see the 'creation' flow traverses from concept to physical reality, rather than the other way around? So the concept came before the physical demonstration of that concept? Or do you mean that something has the potential to exist (while having no actual, ie, conceptual or physical existence), then exists in theory or as a concept, and then can be physically expressed as an action, object or whatever? He was indeed a clever chap. Well, well. Great minds... Yes, I haven't been trying to take anything away from previous posts, I've just been trying to order my own thoughts on this particular matter usining terminology that I find easiest to manipulate into meaning. Upper manifolds, zero Point Fields and electrodynamics are all terms and concepts I can deal with, but I had (have) to get things out in my own easiest terms of reference first so that I can then read mine and others side by side and see just how similar/dissimilar they are. I know Kage. I referenced the 'Sea of Souls' specifically in the a context of tring to ensure that no-one thought I was referring to it. I was trying to dismiss that particular baggage before mentioning the word 'swim'. Rest assured if I didn't mention it, someone somewhere would have posted "You mean like the Sea of Souls thing!!". "My interpretation"... My interpretation... Although I'm certain that I've been influenced by other good and reasoned ideas while assembling my interpretation of the Warp (and everything else in life I suppose), I haven't 'lifted' anything directly from anyone else. It is still my interpretation that I have come to through my own reasoning and critique on existing ideas. Any similarities with your own ideas, Kage, or anyone elses is just happy coincidence.... but perhaps that's what you meant by the quotation marks. Written text is just so hard to read sometimes, you know? Cool Funny you should mention that... Actually, I think I mention it a bit later as well. I'm not sure I understand what you mean in the context to which I was referring to. To make clearer what I was trying to say, if there were no other influences upon the Empyrean (The Warp) while a ship was travelling 'through' it, then a powerful (whatever) enough Navigator might be able to utilise the Empyrean's 'connected to all points in the universe' nature as a kind of Douglas Adams Total Improbability Drive - being 'next to' all points of the materium as the same time, and then settling on one point almost instantaneously. Ergo there would be no 'journey time' within the Empyrean. In its effects it would seem like more of a 'curved space' idea - open a door on this side of the galaxy, step through and immediately be on the other side of the galaxy with no noticeable time 'within' the doorway. But then, my point was that there will always be external pressures on any voyage into the Empyrean, (from gods, daemons, the minds of the crew, the expectations of the Navigator and so on and so on)meaning that although the potential for instant arrival at another point of the Materium might have been possible to the Old Ones (say), now the accessable part of warp/potential reality (therefore 'The Warp', the Realm of Chaos, or what I have been calling the Empyrean for my own ease of use), is so tempestuous and cluttered that this kind of instant travel is almost (or totally?) impossible. There will always be time and distance spent 'within' the Empyrean... Perhaps a less intellectually arrogant way of saying this might have been: "he's posted his interpretation for everyone to see, that fact that it happens to share many points in common with the interpretation I've been working on makes it all froopy". It's good when two people find that their ideas on a certain matter tally, but it's not so good when one says to the other: "that's my idea your talking about", rather than " your idea shares many points in common with my own". I'm belabouring the point, I know, but you understand how importent it is to choose words carefully when talking about other people's theories in relation to our own. Imagine you wrote in your paper "Professor Smith of Cambridge University puts forward my idea in his paper...", rather than use more carefully chosen terminology about how certain aspects of his ideas match with your own... And yet still you managed to say it anyway, Kage. But I guess you're stressed over your paper, so it's all good. Everyone is on this forum because they are interested in your Anargo idea and want to see it made into a reality. That sense of inspired commonality of purpose is, I think, a more than good enough advocation of your ideas and a testiment to our willingness to take your lead in the specific matter of this project. I'm sure it would be a small thing to spare a little more tact in your replies to us. Or me in this case in point.
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MvS
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Post by MvS on Sept 20, 2004 16:05:26 GMT -5
It's been a while, but then I've been too busy to make the time of late. In this case, as you went on to suggest, I would say that in 40K terms, the 'Void' is a kind of something (although it would be almost impossible to define precisely what that something is), filled with nothing - bearing in mind that I would suggest 'nothing' is a fallacy, and that it equates better with totally unrealised and infinite potential for everything and anything to happen. A bit verbose perhaps... *winks at Kage* ...but it isn't an easy idea to express without inventing a jargon word. Oh, and 'Void' then, in the 40K case would be, I think, The Warp/Empyrean, not the metaphysical 'stuff' of pure 'warp' - which is the actual existence of potential as something other and more than just a linguisitic tool. Warp, then, is the 'energy' of transumutation. Magic. Although unfocussed and devoid of laws before it is unlocked and touched by mortal minds (or whatever). I would suggest that The Warp/Empyrean is the 'nothing-filled Void' ( ) that exudes from, exists 'on top' of, and also exists 'within' same space every point of the Materium simultaneaously, while at the same time being within another frame of reference that is not necessarily bound by the same laws of the Materium dimensions and momentums that it exists within and exudes from, and is not bound by the measures of the Materium in the sense that between point A and point be might infinite 'warpspace' or negligible 'warpspace' depending upon a myriad of variable factors. It is the 'barrier' between all that is and all that could, might and can be. 'Pure' warp, or pure potential, can only be drawn into the materium through the Void/'Warpspace'/Empyrean, and is therefore 'tainted' (or at least affected in some way) by all the stray concepts, emotion and other metaphysical debris that 'occupy' the Empyrean. So the Empyrean is the infinitely divisible middle part of the bridge between potentiality and actuality. In the most abstract way, I would say yes, in the sense that warp (as opposed to The Warp/Empyrean) is infinite potential, and therefore can potentially become anything. But I think an important thing to bear in mind is that the gun didn't 'exist' as such, even within potential, before intelligent mortal minds dreamt it up. Potential is just that - potential - not realisation. So, to paraphrase an analogy supposedly coined by Michaelangelo, the statue is already within the block of marble, I just chip away the excess. So the potential for the gun, and everything else that does, can, could and might exist, exists (in a sense) within potential (pure warp), but is not realised and therefore has no actual existence. Once it has been dreamt up, the gun 'moves' from potentiality into concept - moves from pure warp into The Warp/Empyrean - and then can be expressed physically within the Materium. However, it's concept will remain as a kind of 'grey' (neither realsied nor unrealised) metaphysical 'thing' within the Empyrean, sometimes influencing minds and matter within the Materium, and sometimes being influenced by[/b] them. The only time mortals actualy 'touch' or fiddle with pure warp is when it has been drawn 'through' the Empyrean (and is therefore no longer 'pure') and had its infinite potentiality focussed and limited somewhat (by expectation, external pressures, whatever) into magic/psychic energy - choose a word you like. That's an interesting analogy, although I wouldn't say that all the threads of The Warp become Actual Reality. Some might become 'realised' into actuality within the Materium, some might unravel althogether, some might stay in the constant grey area between these two (Schrodringer's Cat being both dead and alive at the same moment). The point about The Warp/Empyrean is that by merit of the fact that it truly does exist on (or is in itself) the 'meeting point' between Materium and Immaterium, Actuality and Potentiality, it doesn't have to be linear in the same way that the Materium is at it traverses through time. 'Future' events may have effects on the 'past' of the Empyrean, and vice versa, and possibly sideways (although I'm not yet quite sure what I mean by that... As for a person who could see/'step' past the Empyrean 'into' pure warp, I think the point is that they would see nothing - or, that is to say, see absoluetly everything because 'nothing' cannot exist. By the very act of observing pure potential/warp, all the observers thoughts, memories, feelings, energies and physical matter would immediately catalise with the prime catalyst (that is potential), and either create a new Absolutely Everything or create a near infinite addition to the existing Absolutely Everything. If the observer happened to walk into The Warp/Empyrean however, then because the potential 'in' there is quasi-realised and therefore is already more restricted, if that person had a strong enough will/ vision/ intellect/profound perception, then perhaps he or she could create an extension to the Materium (Actual Reality) along any lines he or she might wish - a bit like the areas around and just within the Eye of Terror. I'll finish all this with "I think'.
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