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Post by Sikkukkut on May 15, 2004 5:44:33 GMT -5
Tetrascapes also get us away from the idea of fully-formed pocket dimensions, which seem like a bit too much of a fluff-jump to me. And a little, I dunno, silver-age comic-y. Not that I have anything against silver-age comics, but I keep getting this picture of some bearded guy in a brightly-coloures outfit and funny geometrical hat saying "Welcom, Captain Imperium, my people of the pocket dimention of Zortria are honoured to have you as our guests."
The tetrascapes give us a hybridised version of the concept that have that nastier 40K edge to them: a sort of unholy, vaguely Lovecraftian answer to the Webway created by the Saruthi. So, if we're going to have the phenomenon at the centre of the Sector being artificial in some measure, my suggestion would be that this was a place where the first crude tetrascapes were created, possibly by the Old Ones or whoever else we want to write in. They were an attempt to create a folded-in universe into which the Old Ones' enemies would have trouble following them, but the tetrascapes themselves were far too unstable and far too dependent on warp energy to be safely usable.
Although the tetrascapes created at the heart of Anargo imploded and ceased to exist, traces of the spatial engineering used to create them has been enough to anchor the warpflows that the OO originally drew down and tried to build into the 'scapes. Think of a tornado touching down but then, instead of whooshing about for a bit and dissipating, being caught and trapped in something and then thrashing about there more or less permanently.
Seven of those, say one in each of seven or so systems across the Anargo's Crispy Centre subsector, would stir things up nicely.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 15, 2004 7:31:09 GMT -5
I had a really, really long answer to this one and then realised it was entirely negative based upon the initial reaction that the suggestion by Sikkukkut was that we cannot go beyond the limited (and, yes, inconsistent 'fluff'). That we should not do anything 'interesting' in the fear that it would somehow contradict how someone views the 40k universe (in which point the Anargo Sector Project is entirely pointless since we're already going to be doing that)... While some of the points were entirely valid to the project, they were a tad on the over-reactive side. With that said... On Tetrascapes... This is, broadly speaking, what the 'fragmentary proto-dimensions' are with the odd exception. Calling them "tetrascapes" just means that we'll be using a term that people are 'comfortable' with, which is an entirely reasonable concept. So it is in no way a "'fluff' jump" just an extension. (It would be kind of like saying that Eisenhorn was a "'fluff' jump" since it was an almost complete reversal of the representation of the 40k universe from the appalling Lovecraftian image of an entirely degrading universe into something more dynamic and interesting.) The problems of using 'tetrascape' is that people are obviously going to attribute this to a Chaos phenomenon. After all, the Saruthi could only acquire their radically high-technology through the corruptive touch of the Ruinous Powers! Then again, since people should be allowed to make up their minds about things then it's not necessarily a bad things. Okay, in terms of final representation we would consider them to be Tetrascapes. However, we will not be restricting ourselves to the concept that they are merely the manipulations of spacetime and, of course, that it is necessary to be linked to Chaos to achieve this level of manipulation... Extending from the Webway image, itself going beyond the technology/psychic engineering of the Old Ones, is one concept that is most interesting about 'fragmentary protodimensions'. The idea that they are either the 'bubbled' physical offshots of the material universe, or they are conceptually related to the sum consensual reality of the universe (i.e. the idea of astral constructs; dream realms created by interaction of racial concepts, etc.). They create both the link and praxis through which integration of the inconsistent images on Chaos and the warp... Consider, for example, the original discussion of such concepts as the "Throne of Khorne". Depending on what edition of the 'fluff' that you're reading, this could be just a stupid image (how could there be a throne in the warp; it's just something that is attributed), a localised warp storm (see original descriptions) or a diffuse concept that is non-localised except when it needs to be for the purposes of narrative... The 'fragments' allow an explanation although it does, as Sikkukkut suggests, potentially take us down the "silver comic" approach. LMAO. As if 40k doesn't take us down the Flash Gordon approach already with its somewhat twee retrotech imagery and overt 'Golden Age' emphasis... Erm, so what have I been saying. Calling them "tetrascapes" is a good thing. Being limited to what Abnett suggested tetrascapes were (i.e. just spacetime oddites that are entirely xenogenic) is not something that we shall limit ourselves to. Furthermore, we will not restrict ourselves to the favoured interpretation of some to Lovecraftian-esque concepts. While they might be 'unholy' to some, that doesn't necessarily make them Chaotic. No, not by a long-shot. Let us not fall to 2E logic where Chaos is the malaise that touches upon every aspect in a very real, fundamental and immediate way. Else we'll get into the reaction that every race has their own immunity to Chaos... Old Tetrascapes (or the Touch Down Image)... Interesting but something that I'm not keen on. I prefer the idea of solutions rather than impositions. The Anargo tetrascapes are something that exist in the modern sector, I would say. Crossing into them is just as dangerous, in some ways, as the warp; they assimilate and, yes, mutate. Different physical laws can exist there not just because one has played around with spacetime and created weird gravity planes or whatever. Erm, I'm going to stop there since I could ramble for ages. Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 15, 2004 9:35:55 GMT -5
Seeing as how I am not familiar with the term or concept of Tetrascapes, I can only infer based on what I have read. As Kage has asked me many times during this discussion, I will dispense with the "bubble" analogy. As to fully formed pocket dimensions, That is not what I was intending at all by the discussion of the multiple micro realities present in the warp near the sector.
These micro realites represent fractured space. Remember one of the concepts that we were discussing was that the reality that the Old Ones (or who ever) built broke apart under the natural stresses of the warp or due to some error in its constructuion or attempts made to correct these errors.
The fracturing of the reality into at least seven small parts has left irregular pieces as well as gaps in the realities. In places the warp and the reality bleed together. The best example of this is a planet that does not have strong enough gravity to hold in its atmosphere.
Even on earth, some of the upper atmosphere escapes into space. Some of this atmosphere is lost, while some falls back towards earth. It may be that instead of atmosphere, the same happens with reality in this fractured space. the warp that flows through the are is not only effected by the "stones", but effects them as well.
Reality would be in flux in these regions. The irregular shaps would also help to explain the changes in the flow that can occur around the Tetrascapes. Theoretically they might have some spin to them. If we look at almost any stellar body, there is some form of rotation going on.
They do not even have to be spinning that quickly. the irregular shape of the fractured realities will cause the flow of the warp to change. A "sharp" edge may obstruct more of the warp currents diverting more of the warp current, while a "smooth" edge will divert less, thus decreasing the disruption of the warp currents.
With seven "stones" thus affecting the flow of the warp, it would seem like a chaotic jumble of ever changing currents to an outside observer.
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Post by CELS on May 16, 2004 9:54:29 GMT -5
Had time for a bit longer read through all this now.
On Saruthi-like tetrascapes... ahhh, seeing a familiar concept pop up in this thread warms my heart. I like this. But... how big are they, in the physical universe? Do seven systems form some kind of sphere or pyramid within which the tetrascape lies? What are the effects of this tetrascape outside its borders, that's kept Imperials away? What do the Imperium know of these tetrascapes?
On fractured space... how would this work exactly? Would it be similar to the Eye of Terror, where if you get close enough, you find yourself slowly entering the warp? What would happen if a ship got too close to this fractured space, and suddenly found that the laws of physics were a lot different in this new reality? And would there be a definite border between realities, like a gate, or do the realities just merge like in the Eye of Terror?
On the Old Ones and C'tan... I like the idea that the tetrascapes are meant to imprison the C'tan, rather than them being a safe haven for the Old Ones, and that the Necrons lured their way into one such haven. However... I thought the Necrons built the tombs to escape the Enslavers AFTER the Old Ones had disappeared. If that is the case, then this tombworld must be different from all others. Instead of being a bunker to hide from the Enslavers, this Necron world must be an actual colony or something.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 16, 2004 12:36:25 GMT -5
They're just warped spacetime areas that were given the term 'tetrascape' by a xenoarchaeologist in one of the Eisenhorn books published by the BL. They were a warping of normal space rather than involving anything being drawn in... It's part of the reason that I'm keen on 'fragmentary proto-dimension' concept since you can do something other than play around with normal spacetime... Only because in application to the Warp it doesn't work... Nor strictly was I... What I was more after was an original location that subsequently 'shattered' creating our 'stones' but which link through into a common 'reality'. Yes, that was kind of the point... Again I point out that they won't be exactly the same as the Saruthi Tetrascapes. That would be... boring. And that's an interesting topic to discuss. Though I would argue for seven dominant 'fragments' with oodles of smaller ones... The Imperium would know about the disruption to the Warp flows and that something was causing it. But not only would it be difficult to get closer to them but one must question whether they would be able to understand the nature of the phenomenon. Hence the use of the term 'tetrascapes' would be appropriate even though I'm working on the principle that they are more than that... The phenomenon do not strictly relate to the warp, just as the Tetrascapes are not necessarily warp phenomenon. An interesting question... once within the domain of the 'Tetrascape' they would be subject to the physical laws therein. This is one point where you could get into Destecado's physics assimilation/bubbles... There would be no gate, but the nature of the 'boundary' is up for debate. It would seem, however, that some form of 'barrier' would be present... Well, obviously not the C'tan... We're not going to put one of those annoying little beggers in the Anargo sector... Which goes back to the original idea, which is also fine. Or a base of operations... Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 18, 2004 17:17:14 GMT -5
Fractured space as I view it would be like the brackish water that you find in some river inlets or salt marshes. it is an area where salt water and fresh water meet and combine. It makes for a very fragile ecosystem that exist somewhere between the two extremes.
While there may be some areas with defined borders or portals, i think we need areas like this, where you do not really know when you have crossed from one reality to the next.
These areas can also be in flux. Sometime you can enter them without a problem...like the Raod Runner running into the painting of the road drawn on a solid wall by Willie Coyote. At other times they can be all but impassible....Willie Coyote running into the solid wall instead of passing into the painting.
It may not be that the nature of this portal changes as that it is semi permiable. It will allow things in that do not contradict the natural laws of its reality while keeping out those that do. Thes broken down areas where the realities mix would be a way for something the defies that realities laws to slip by....sort of like the eye of terror is for our reality.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 18, 2004 17:26:30 GMT -5
Fractured space as I view it would be like the brackish water that you find in some river inlets or salt marshes... For me not a useful analogy... It's amazing how some work for some and others just fall flat on their face. This one is currently half-way through the sidewalk... While there may be some areas with defined borders or portals, i think we need areas like this, where you do not really know when you have crossed from one reality to the next. Nope, that's fine with me. These areas can also be in flux. Again, reasonable enough. Variation itself can be a function of 'proximity' of the fragment itself, as well as representing opening of certain 'boundaries'... It may not be that the nature of this portal changes as that it is semi permiable. It will allow things in that do not contradict the natural laws of its reality while keeping out those that do. Far too problematic, I would suggest. Best let all things in (if they get int) and then allow for changes to occur. Indeed, it might be intriguing if, for example, ships enter and are changed by the massively different physical laws therein (physics assimilation ala Dark Conspiracy) only to appear out on the 'other side' of the disrupted current... Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 18, 2004 17:39:00 GMT -5
Far too problematic, I would suggest. Best let all things in (if they get int) and then allow for changes to occur. Indeed, it might be intriguing if, for example, ships enter and are changed by the massively different physical laws therein (physics assimilation ala Dark Conspiracy) only to appear out on the 'other side' of the disrupted current... This would be a good way of also explaining how things such as possesed ships can occur. I sor have lost track as to how we were working the stones. Are we saying that the "stones" were an attempt to try to imprison or capture the Necrons? Would they have then been developed by the old ones? If so this does raise some interesting ideas. Instead of existing on a tomb world at the heart of the sector, why not have a necron fleet some where in this fractured space. It is a good trap after all, because the Necrons have no way of escaping the warp. If they were able to create a sigularity or some other way to draw them across into it, that would be the perfect place to deposit them until a more permanent solution for the Necrons could be found. It also leads to the possibility of instead of a tomb world, how about a giant space hulk made out of Necron ships? Any thoughts?
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Post by Kage2020 on May 18, 2004 17:56:20 GMT -5
This would be a good way of also explaining how things such as possesed ships can occur. Well, that would have more to do with the mix of the matterium and the warp rather than what we're trying to do with the 'fractured space' at the Heart of Anargo, but partly... yes. I sor have lost track as to how we were working the stones. Are we saying that the "stones" were an attempt to try to imprison or capture the Necrons? My impression at present is that the Anargo sector was any area where the Old Ones and the Necrons battled. At the 'Heart of Anargo' the Old Ones attempted to create a 'dimensional' prison for the Necrons - an astral construct, if you will, similar in part to the concept of the Webway - to imprison the Necrons and "removing" them from the universe. But at the final attempt the 'prison space' fractured, creating the various stones which are ultimately correspondently linked but spatially disparate... Would they have then been developed by the old ones? Only insofar as they were originally planed as the 'prison space'. I'm rather keen on the idea that it is an 'exploded artefact', something resulting from a weapon gone wrong... Instead of existing on a tomb world at the heart of the sector, why not have a necron fleet some where in this fractured space. Well, the tombworld was there to present as small a challenge to the 'fluff' as possible. It is a good trap after all, because the Necrons have no way of escaping the warp. I think that it is important to state that the 'stones' are not necessarily products of the Warp per se. Hmmn... or maybe not. They are, for me, the 'stuff of Chaos' but that might be taking things too far... If they were able to create a sigularity or some other way to draw them across into it, that would be the perfect place to deposit them until a more permanent solution for the Necrons could be found. And now we're back to one of the first posts... It also leads to the possibility of instead of a tomb world, how about a giant space hulk made out of Necron ships? Any thoughts? A surprisingly interesting image but, again, we would have to find a separate mechanism for such other than 'warp taint'... Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 18, 2004 18:12:16 GMT -5
A surprisingly interesting image but, again, we would have to find a separate mechanism for such other than 'warp taint'... This could have occured due to the process of accretion. This is how the planets slowly formed over thousands of years from the accretion discs of stars. It has been more than enough time for them to have drawn together in this lymbo like reality. It could go into the attraction of like particles. Imagine something that looks like a large moon or tomb world, but is actually the accumulation of hundreds (or more) of Necron ships. It could be sort of an homage to the death star from star wars. It looks like a moon, but isn't actually a moon. If not formed into the shape of a moon, then perhaps into some shape important to the necrons...I just have images of a large monolith (ala 2001) hovering in this vast nothingness. Should they be dormant or maybe they never went dormant. they have therefore been active all this time trying to find a way home. Maybe they have reshaped one of the realities into a nightmarish reflection of themselves.
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Post by CELS on May 19, 2004 0:10:28 GMT -5
Now it's starting to sound like you want it to be impossible for the Necrons to leave their prison, whatever it is. I'm not sure that is such a good idea, since the reason we put a tombworld in the Anargo sector in the first place was that we wanted the possibility of awakening the Necrons later, say in 999.M41. Thus, a huge Necron death-star trapped in a tetrascape-thing, whilst a very cool concept, doesn't quite fit the bill for me. They're just warped spacetime areas that were given the term 'tetrascape' by a xenoarchaeologist in one of the Eisenhorn books published by the BL. They were a warping of normal space rather than involving anything being drawn in... It's part of the reason that I'm keen on 'fragmentary proto-dimension' concept since you can do something other than play around with normal spacetime... *Doesn't know what spacetime is, but hey* What exactly did you have in mind for these areas? Warped physical laws seem to present a fantastic challenge, since it involves creating whole new physical laws and figuring out the effects of these. I'll risk an example that is probably ridiculous to someone who knows physics, but I imagine that an area where the law of gravity doesn't apply would be... weird. Very weird. Again I point out that they won't be exactly the same as the Saruthi Tetrascapes. That would be... boring. I figured you might say that. I just liked seeing something partly familiar, is all And that's an interesting topic to discuss. Though I would argue for seven dominant 'fragments' with oodles of smaller ones... Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean by fragments and what are dominant fragments? The Imperium would know about the disruption to the Warp flows and that something was causing it. But not only would it be difficult to get closer to them but one must question whether they would be able to understand the nature of the phenomenon. Hence the use of the term 'tetrascapes' would be appropriate even though I'm working on the principle that they are more than that... *scratches head* A tetrascape is what exactly? An area of 'spacetime' with possibly different physical laws than the 'materium'? And the Imperium might not fully understand it, but I imagine that AM explorator ships would be probing this phenomenon for millennia. Maybe after millennia of research, they would have some answers? The phenomenon do not strictly relate to the warp, just as the Tetrascapes are not necessarily warp phenomenon. But... they can be? *confused* I would really like to see a tidy definition of what we're talking about when we say tetrascapes now, not to mention a description of a possible tetrascape. There would be no gate, but the nature of the 'boundary' is up for debate. It would seem, however, that some form of 'barrier' would be present... What sort of barrier? Like an invisible wall that goes CLONK when your ship hits it? Or would it be more akin to trying to push a balloon underwater? Well, obviously not the C'tan... We're not going to put one of those annoying little beggers in the Anargo sector... How about a DEMI-C'TAN!?!?! Ok, I'm kidding. Meant to put Necrons there ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on May 19, 2004 18:10:16 GMT -5
<grin> An amusing concept. Perhaps we should wait until someone else... well, CELS... dibs in with an opinion on this? I'm reminded only of the efficiency of cube-octahedral packing when dealing with this type of thing... Ah well, that's about all I know about packing shapes, etc., so I'll shut up now! I think that if they have this level of abiity then it might be somewhat problematic to have kept them in the "Tetrascape"... We walk a fine line, however. The 'Tetrascape fragments' are there to make it difficult for the Necrons to escape. Previously impossible, but with a changing situation it has merely become problematic. Something that, with a mis-step by someone else, could be nullified... This is why it is kind of important to have a 'physical'/artificial generation from the various fragments. It needs to be 'turned off' or, alternatively, the Necrons are to awake and find out enough information to 'navigate'. Indeed, the problem with the concept is that the Necrons, if awake, could pretty much bypass the warp problem anyway. Another potential reason why it is necessary to surround them with fragmentary physical laws as well as just 'rocks in the ocean'... The normal situation is one espoused by GW: you take a limited concept and expand it to the totality. Thus you would select a specific 'concept' for the dominant physical laws of the fragment and then work from there... Although for a race that purportedly uses gravity as a main source of propulsion, monkeying around with it would be a perfect trap... While I do not advocate this solution, merely point out that the oddities if taken in reason could serve to justify the "imprisonment" in the first place... And I knew that you were going to say that! We have been referring to the dominant (=large) fragments as 'stones'. One might suggest that the smaller ones are like pebbles. I would tentatively suggest that the 'stones' are attached to systems, while the 'pebbles' are scattered through space... In gross terms, yes. Check out the Eisenhorn trilogy for more information... That's the question, is it not? I'm sure that the adeptus mechanicus would have studied the phenomenon... but perhaps it is like looking at a puzzle box held within a glass case. You can guess what it might work like, but you can never be too sure until you get a closer look and can actually manipulate it. With the Saruthi tetrascapes GW tried to make it clear that they were a phenomenon of real space, not the Warp. That is they involved manipulations of "four dimensional" reality. Some tend to get this confused with the corruption of the Saruthi by the Necroteuch, but there we go... I view the 'proto-dimensions' as fragments of the Warp itself so, yes, in some way these would be a part of the warp. After all, it would buy into the 'psychic engineering' of the Old Ones surely? However, at present we are more concerned with the "experiment/plan gone awry" image and not necessarily the origin of the tetrascapes themselves... (I know where they come from in my interpretation, but that's an aside for the moment...) We'll get to that, I'm sure. Or, rather, mention the various types present in Anargo... <grin> No Flash Gordon-esque forcefields, here. I'm guessing the baloon analogy works best. (Damned bubbles are back again! ) on May 16th, 2004, 6:36pm, Kage2020 wrote:Well, obviously not the C'tan... We're not going to put one of those annoying little beggers in the Anargo sector... How about a DEMI-C'TAN!! Ok, I'm kidding. Meant to put Necrons there Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 20, 2004 10:59:16 GMT -5
I'm not saying that they can not leave their prison. The space is fractured. The Necrons are able to move about, the major problem is trying to get back into the materium from where they are. If I rememebr correctly, the Necrontyr and C'tan did not really have a concept of the warp or how to use it.
The stones are the remains of the Old Ones attempt to make a prison for the Necrons. I view it similar to surgery. The Necrons could be thought of as a cancer or blight on the galaxy. rather than killing the patient, the doctor tries to eradicate the cancer. If they are unable to do that by other means, they will sometimes resort to cutting out the affected tissue.
By creating this fractal reality or tetrascape, the Old Ones may have been trying to remove the cancer of the Necrons from our reality by cutting them out and expelling them into warp space. Unfortunately the integrity of the fractal reality fell apart resulting in the stones or fractured space close to our own reality, but still inside the warp.
It is always possible that eventually one of these fragments will come in contact with our own reality again, allowing the necrons entry back into our reality. They could also attack ships passing through the area, hoping to capture them to use their warp engines or study them to get back. These are possible plot twists for the future.
It may be that the differing realities have wrought changes on some of the Necrons. Maybe some of them have achieved sentience again and are pissed off that their leaders and the C'tan lied to them. They could actively be fighting those that are still under the sway of the "old regime". Maybe some have found a way to agian inhabit mortal forms....the possibilities are endless.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 20, 2004 11:19:08 GMT -5
I'm not saying that they can not leave their prison. The space is fractured...If I rememebr correctly, the Necrontyr and C'tan did not really have a concept of the warp or how to use it. This is where we're going to have to be careful. Necron technology is based upon the manipulation of physical laws. After all, that's how the majority of technology functions with the exception of 'technomancy'! A mere Tetrascape would not offer a sufficient problem to the Necrons and, hence, the mechanism by which (in a simple way) the physical laws are altered. It is for this reason that I advocate(d?) the "proto-dimension" option. This would be 'drawing the warp' (kind of, but not the warp per se) as a method of 'entrapment'. If they are unable to do that by other means, they will sometimes resort to cutting out the affected tissue. In essence, yes. You remove the Necrons into these prisons and throw away the key... but not strictly into 'warp space'. We have to be careful with that term since because of GW it means so much and, at the same time, so little. Unfortunately the integrity of the fractal reality fell apart resulting in the stones or fractured space close to our own reality, but still inside the warp. Yes... ish. And this is for the most part what we've been saying for some time. The only problem seems to be with the relationship of the 'fragments'/stones to the warp and to the matterium. It may be that the differing realities have wrought changes on some of the Necrons. Maybe some of them have achieved sentience again and are pissed off that their leaders and the C'tan lied to them. That is in part why I suggested the 'proto-dimension' option. It allowed individualised story arcs to be created without the "trapped in the warp" concept which, for many, would be the destruction of the Necrons/C'tan... Maybe some have found a way to agian inhabit mortal forms....the possibilities are endless. Yep, that's the point. Out of a small seed something else grows... Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 21, 2004 17:33:01 GMT -5
This is where we're going to have to be careful. Necron technology is based upon the manipulation of physical laws. After all, that's how the majority of technology functions with the exception of 'technomancy'! A mere Tetrascape would not offer a sufficient problem to the Necrons and, hence, the mechanism by which (in a simple way) the physical laws are altered. It is for this reason that I advocate(d?) the "proto-dimension" option. This would be 'drawing the warp' (kind of, but not the warp per se) as a method of 'entrapment'. This is why i am advocating that the "reality" of the tetrascape is not that far off from our own. There may be some minor differences, but the reality that the Old Ones created would have pretty much mirrored our own. My reasoning behind this is that it is already difficult enough to create a tetrascape or mirror reality, would you increase the difficulty by then mucking with the laws of that reality? Any changes to the laws would perhaps have occured when the tetrascape 9proto reality) fractured. Kage I know that you are not overly fond of the bubble analogy for these different realities, but how about comparing each reality to a galaxy in the universe? It is my theory that the things that humanit calls deamons might actually be beings from another reality, that has intersected our own. The reality that they come from is not representative of the warp as a whole, it is just another reality among many out there. As with galaxies sometime these realities can colide into each other (there are pictures from the hubble telescope of two galaxies crashing into each other). In this case, I view the contact point as the area that became the eye of terror. It is an area where the two realities meet and in some places mix. Yes... ish. And this is for the most part what we've been saying for some time. The only problem seems to be with the relationship of the 'fragments'/stones to the warp and to the matterium. Before we do that we need to settle of a concise image or definition of what the stones are. I know we've bandied about several terms, such as tetrascape, and proto-dimensions, but I think we need to get very specific on defining what these terms mean.
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