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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 25, 2004 10:24:28 GMT -5
I've always seen the C'tan/Necrontyr relationship as being more..er.... Anyways, I read the story as the Necrontyr found the C'tan as a means to fight the Old Ones. When they finally made contact, involving chants that spanned generations (it says that in the codex), they forged physical bodies of living metal for the gods to inhabit. The C'tan manipulated the Necrontyr subtly, until they saw the opportunity to enslave them forever, by offering the metal forms as a way of immortality, but conveniently forgetting that they were mindless. Then they led their new legions of helpless machines against the Old Ones, their enemies. BTW Destacado, I gave you some info on Necrons in their subforum, from the codex.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 25, 2004 10:33:23 GMT -5
Since we're going nowhere fast, a quick synopsis of some of the points that I find interesting... - Former stellar nursery as a 'birthing ground' of C'tan. This was then 'destroyed' by supernova explosion (the idea of a C'tan creche is quite intriguing)...
- Strong warp flow that moves through the Anargo sector...
- Something going on in the centre. I still like the 'rock' idea since it would give a pattern to the Warp in the area rather than the thread-bare tapestry that exists at present.
Erm, that's really not a synopsis but there are points still up for discussion rather than getting too overly involved in the specific discussion of the Necron/C'tan relationship which, while interesting and relevant to an extent, could rapidly move us away from actually making some broad determinations. Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 26, 2004 13:49:30 GMT -5
Sorry. I was the one who started it. The discussion on the relationship between the Necrontyr and the C'tan has been taken up here in the Necron Forum. 've also had some new thoughts on what may have caused the turbulance or rapids at the heart of the sector. The following information is part of a larger post that involoves a discussion of the Sargasso Gulf which is available in that thread. I will only post here the portion that is relavent to the Heart of the Sector discussion. A thought has occured to me as what might direct or cause the flow of tides in the Galaxy as a whole. the following is sort of an expansion on the idea of the pendulum tides. Spacetime in the absence of gravity is thought to be flat. Gravity fields such as those created by stars, planets, black holes and other stellar bodies and phenomenon curve or bend space time. If we go on the assumption that the Warp is a higher dimension of reality, then these gravitational effects might have effects there as well. But let us consider another option. What if the warp instead of being effected so much by stellar bodies and events is effected by the psychic eminations of sentient and semi-sentient beings. To go further, let us say that warp space like normal space time is flat. it is in areas of strong psychic disturbances or in areas of dense psychic activity that it twists and curves. The "currents" of the warp would then be the flow of warp space towards the depression created by massed populations. One effect of Warp Storms might be the disruptions or aggitation of the strong psychic emanations. During the age of strife and the age of apostasy when the galaxy saw major upheavals and war, the frequency of war storms increased. as populations died out or found a new level of homeostasis, the warp storms began to subside. The powerful warp currents that wind through the Sectors in this area might point to high level of population. Some great cataclysm perhaps took place in the Heart of the Subsector that has somehow marred the flow of the warp even till this day. Perhaps something akin to a psychic black hole? Would the death of a C'tan maybe be akin to a psychic supernova?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 26, 2004 16:05:47 GMT -5
Sorry. I was the one who started it... Just wanted to keep things OnT and create a separate thread for parallel and equally interesting discussion. So no need to apologise for it! I will only post here the portion that is relavent to the Heart of the Sector discussion. Fair enough. One must, however, remember that the Cursed Subsector (are we going to name that some time?) is, AFAIK, some distance away from the 'Heart of the Sector' unless we make either the Sargasso Gulf or the Heart of the Sector a significant feature. I believe that CELS is broadly against this, although 6 parsecs is still one-tenth that of the axis of the sector... If we go on the assumption that the Warp is a higher dimension of reality, then these gravitational effects might have effects there as well. That's a given. Not only does it make sense to link gravitational phenomenon to the Warp but it also seems to make sense in the context of the 'fluff'. Furthermore, GW canon is fairly explicit about the link in the concept of the 'warp zone' and, of a form, the orignal "natural warp gateways" that sometimes formed in systems... Hmmn, that's a reminder... What if the warp instead of being effected so much by stellar bodies and events is effected by the psychic eminations of sentient and semi-sentient beings. That is one of the predications of the Pendulum Tide, true, but something that I also incorporated into my personal description of the Warp and Warp travel. I considered it be an energy-mass phenomenon. The "currents" of the warp would then be the flow of warp space towards the depression created by massed populations. These could be strong flows, but self-evidently there must be a pattern of 'natural' flows that underlie and 'corrupt' these... The powerful warp currents that wind through the Sectors in this area might point to high level of population. Or strong mass-energy effect. Whacking a high population in the Heart of the Sector is something that I'm not overtly keen on at this point, especially when one considers the nature of the population. Would the death of a C'tan maybe be akin to a psychic supernova? I'd prefer the actual supernova, to be fair. A "psychic supernova" when talking about the C'tan might be considered problematic, whether in there 'natural' form or 'otherwise'... Hmmn... My mind seems to be focussed on a projective/artificial phenomenon still, it would seem, despite some good ideas. Eventually I'll see enough good ideas that they're fit together into one form... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 26, 2004 16:59:54 GMT -5
Do we have any idea where the Necrontyr originated? Could the turbulance be created by their original attempts to crack the warp. As far as I remember, that was one of the reazson that they went to war with the Old Ones.
They were pretty much relegated to relatavistic travel. Is it possible that they attempted to crack warp travel only to meet with a terrible disaster? This sort of goes back to my idea of attempts to design an artificial warp gate or web way portal. I know that the eldar (or at least DE) have them, but what if another race was to try to reverse engineer on or creat a similar technology? Could that be the cause we are looking for?
Rember the concept of the webway acting as a tether from which power can be drawn. perhaps the effect has continued, because the effect is continually fed power by the artificial doorway created.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 26, 2004 17:38:13 GMT -5
Again, another interesting possibility although it would go up against the 'average sector idea', though we're kind of there in some regards already. I cannot put out of mind one important concept: it is hard to 'terraform' the warp, create alterable natural phenomenon etc., but much easier to alter the fate of the artificial. With regards to the tether idea, while intriguing I'm also against it with reference to the eldar. It raises far too many questions for me at this point, along with the whole 'chicken and egg' scenario (though counter-argument is obvious idea that the eldar took up the previous Old Slann technology and surpassed it). This is at present on argument that I will at this juncture over-rule, though partially because while the craftworld is ultimately mobile I do not see the Webway as trailing, i.e. itis a part of at least a version of implicate space (i.e. the 'correspondent point'). Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 27, 2004 10:28:20 GMT -5
Well, I have a new theory as to what may be causing the distortion in the Heart of the Sector (big surprise there). Perhaps it is an energy tap, tapping into the abundant energy of the universe itself. The distortion field created by the "tap" is what causes the disruption in Warp Space. The following links describe the theories behind the "free energy" machine disigned by Faraday created to access this abundant sourse of energy. depalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity13/PreExistentPrimordialField.htmldepalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity05/SecretOfForceMachine.htmldepalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity08/FaradayDisc.htmlwww.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/electric.htmIf I remember correctly, it was thought that there might be a stasis field or some other artificial field created to keep the Center of the Sector "off limits" It would need to gather its power from somewhere, why not from a "spatial tap"? If people are not comfortable trying to muddle through the mathmatics and the different laws involved with the free energy concept, I can try to create a synopis of the idea. I'm mostly posting the links, because if not used for the heart of the Sector idea, they might stir ideas on how the eldar generate power.
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Post by CELS on Apr 28, 2004 6:47:06 GMT -5
First of all, I'd just like to take my hat off for Destecado. It's truly amazing how many different suggestions you've come up with... I don't know what else to say, except that I'm impressed That said, I'd once again like to point out that we're trying to create a somewhat 'standard' Imperial sector. Making it completely standard, of course, might be dead boring, and the total lack of any special phenomenons and anomalies might be 'unique' in itself. Still, I'm terribly worried when you speak of such ideas as the sector centre being the remains of a dead C'tan, or some kind of tremendous, unique warp gate (working like a webway, or by another principle entirely) Two reasons. 1) The more significant we make this special anomaly/ artifact, the greater impact it will have on the sector, and the less average our sector will be. 2) The greater the impact this invention has on the sector, the greater its mark will be on the project. Messing with the C'tan is so delicate that it makes peace negotiations in Israel seem like a walk in the park. Not to mention the fact that it's become a popular reaction to roll your eyes at any mention of the C'tan at all. Both Destecado and Kage (I'll adress you in third-person, as if someone else is still reading this thread ), being a couple of radicals, will probably be less worried about this, and I'm pretty sure that Kage will reply that we mustn't be afraid of the popular opinion. Well, as much as I agree on that when it comes to Eldar and various aspects of the Imperium, this is where I must protest. If our whole sector centres around an anomaly/ artifact that most veteran fluffers consider ridiculous, that spells the doom of this project. Which brings me to the part that precious few of the ASP members include in their posts; Alternatives and constructive criticism. (Parden the complaint, Kage) I suggest that we go with a very conservative and careful option, and say that the centre of the sector, as originally suggested, is the ancient battleground of Old Ones and C'tan. Because of the effects of the battle that took place here, we have a "rocks-in-the-river" effect on the warp in this area. Incidentally, this keeps humans and aliens from reaching the Necrons, in all likelihood, which in turn keeps them from waking up before they're supposed to. As Destecado points out, they seem to wake up sooner or later, whether left alone or not, but as I've pointed out before, they seem to wake up sooner than intended if people come knocking on their tomb door. The Adeptus Mechanicus has learned this the hard way. As a last comment... it is indeed unfortunate that other members of the project have neglected this important thread, but I think this is a consequence of how it has been handled so far. I have no idea what a quasar, a white hole, a catch 22, or flat space time is, and the talk of sentient magnetic fields caused by higher dimension C'tan hurts my brain. The remedy to this of course, is to talk about the centre of the sector in a simpler level, and asking what would be cool, without asking people to explain the logic behind it. Unfortunately, that would be doing the same as GW has done, so it's not an option, it seems. I guess that it is up to you two (and to a minor extent, myself) to work this out.
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Post by Destecado on Apr 29, 2004 14:52:02 GMT -5
First of all, I'd just like to take my hat off for Destecado. It's truly amazing how many different suggestions you've come up with... I don't know what else to say, except that I'm impressed Thanks. That said, I'd once again like to point out that we're trying to create a somewhat 'standard' Imperial sector. Making it completely standard, of course, might be dead boring, and the total lack of any special phenomenons and anomalies might be 'unique' in itself. We don't need to define it in the actual game. it is something that Game Masters would be privy to, but which players would only find out through rumor, inuendo or personal experience. Defining it here is important for figuring out how it will fit into the game down the road and what its effects on the rest of the sector will be....Still I have no problem leaving it ill defined if that is agreeable to both you and Kage. As a last comment... it is indeed unfortunate that other members of the project have neglected this important thread, but I think this is a consequence of how it has been handled so far. I have no idea what a quasar, a white hole, a catch 22, or flat space time is, and the talk of sentient magnetic fields caused by higher dimension C'tan hurts my brain. Sorry, sometimes I forget that some of the ideas that seem clear to me do not always translate well to others that I am trying to explain it to. Slang can also be lost in the translation for individuals whose fist language is not english who do not share similar cultural references. In the future I will try to keep this in mind when writing my explanations.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 29, 2004 19:46:27 GMT -5
Both Destecado and Kage (I'll adress you in third-person, as if someone else is still reading this thread ), being a couple of radicals, will probably be less worried about this, and I'm pretty sure that Kage will reply that we mustn't be afraid of the popular opinion. <grin> As they say here, "It's a far enough cop". But that is the whole point of the project: to analyse the tension between RPG and wargame aspects, between the discrepancy of 'fluff' and wargame, and move beyond them. To create something unique rather than a mere clone of what has been done before. Although I've said it before repetition is sometimes not a bad thing... The ASP must be something more than what has gone before by definition. I could have created something akin to the Gothic sector by myself... But that doesn't interest me. A part of the project is the incorporation of the 'radical'. Why? Because it raises eyebrows. It is an unfortunate truism that much of GW 'fluff' tends to be literary tepid because of the requirement for 'wargame balance'... The interesting stories are left alone because of 'bean counters'. Yes, cynical, but there we go. If our whole sector centres around an anomaly/ artifact that most veteran fluffers consider ridiculous, that spells the doom of this project. A reasonable comment. Although following project guidelines one must question why all the subsectors hug the borders... I suggest that we go with a very conservative and careful option, and say that the centre of the sector, as originally suggested, is the ancient battleground of Old Ones and C'tan. By the lack of definition, however, we fall into the trap of GW. The original premise was to create an interpretation of the 40k universe, not create the same bland and weak storytelling that - I'm sorry - is endemic in 40k 'literature', but rather to create an unadulterated picture. Because of the effects of the battle that took place here, we have a "rocks-in-the-river" effect on the warp in this area. A reasonable and tempered supposition. It lacks potential in terms of the future of the ASP but would allow explanation of the past. Of course, it means that the nature of such 'problems' are still up for grabs. As a last comment... it is indeed unfortunate that other members of the project have neglected this important thread, but I think this is a consequence of how it has been handled so far. I have no idea what a quasar, a white hole, a catch 22, or flat space time is, and the talk of sentient magnetic fields caused by higher dimension C'tan hurts my brain. Hmmn, a comment for PM, I feel. I shall make this... The remedy to this of course, is to talk about the centre of the sector in a simpler level, and asking what would be cool, without asking people to explain the logic behind it. It is important that things be consistent. Otherwise what is the point? So how about the asking of a simple question: Since the 'Heart of Anargo' seems to be a fairly important consideration, is it best to have this as an artificial phenomenon (something we can make a story of) of natural phenomenon (less story in the present or future; just i nthe past). Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 6, 2004 16:34:44 GMT -5
A thought occured to me during the discussion of the warp routes and nature of the warp, could a stasis field be considered as a kind of geller field or another way of approximating the same effect. Oddly enough when looking into the idea of stasis fields in the fluff, their seems to be some contradictions.
In some cases they are presented as bubbles of energy that cut off those inside from the "reality" outside. In other instances, they appear to be more to do with cryonics (images of imperial assasins stored in cryo coffins and stasis fields). Can anyone clarify which is accurate (or if both are).
Also does anyone know what effects a stasis field has on the surrounding war? Can a psychic attack make it through the stasis field? Could there be a mothballed fleet of Necron ships in the heart of the sector, encapsulated within stasis fields? Would this create the rocks in the river you were looking for?
depending on how we go about defining the nature of the warp and our universe, an alternate concept occured to me as well. what about another reality orbiting close to our own at the center of the sector. These could be micro realities perhaps caused by experiments of transcending our reality and traveling into the warp (could be caused by the aoideans). Instead of leaving depressions in warp space as would stellar events inside of our reality, the attracting forces (tidal stresses) might cause raised areas or bulges that create obstructions in the flow of the warp currents.....hence your stones in the river.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 10, 2004 10:27:56 GMT -5
A thought occured to me during the discussion of the warp routes and natur of the warp, could a stasis field be considered as a kind of geller field or another way of approximating the same effect. No idea. The only information that we have on this might be considered to come from Watson's Harlequin, namely the fact that while the others experienced nothing while in 'stasis', Vitali Googol's pineal eye continues to function. This might suggest a negative to the question, but equally could just create the atemporality of consciousness (once again getting into our fondess of the WoD setup, and you're preference for Umbral arguments! ). Oddl enough when looking into the idea of stasis fields in the fluff, their seems to be some contradictions. You ain't whisslin' Dixie... In some cases they are presented as bubbles of energy that cut off those inside from the "reality" outside. Yes, through their "stopping of time", an obviously defunct idea when you consider how they are represented: stasis fields are not zero-tau devices (and I'm not talking about the race! ). Can anyone clarify which is accurate (or if both are). The single best explanation is to go with the fact that GW are more interested in the "Law of the Cool Image" than consistent explanation. There seems to be some form of 'superscience' near zero-tau devices as well as more standard 'cryogenic' devices. Also does anyone know what effects a stasis field has on the surrounding war? Can a psychic attack make it through the stasis field? See the above with reference to Vitali Googol. There is some indication that the ultimate nature of the Navigators' abilities may be laid at the door of "psyker abilities". Could there be a mothballed fleet of Necron ships in the heart of the sector, encapsulated within stasis fields? Would this create the rocks in the river you were looking for? If we were going to go with the 'stasis' idea (quite intriguing BTW) then psychic interaction would not be a problem (cf. Vitali Googol example, again). I would be keen that the 'stasis' effect was generated by something else entirely and not by the Necrons themselves... Which means we're back to an artefact used to entrap the Necrons or, at least, monkey around with time near them (quite appropriate since it features the warp). what about another reality orbiting close to our own at the center of the sector. These could be micro realities perhaps caused by experiments of transcending our reality and traveling into the warp (could be caused by the aoideans). Definitely not the Aoideans! (Tongue in cheek aside, it really wouldn't be the Aoideans. Not sure it would be the eldar, either (more likely than Aoideans), but perhaps a remnant of the Old Ones' desperation towards the end of the war...?) But that is an intriguing concept, more so since it wouldn't strictly be necessary to bring into being 'another reality'. I'm reminded of the "Otherworld" concept of proto-dimensions (fragmentary, etc.) from Dark Conspiracy and my reference to the 'realms of chaos'... (cf. the Horizon and the Deep Umbra). Instead of leaving depressions in warp space as would stellar events inside of our reality, the attracting forces (tidal stresses) might cause raised areas or bulges that create obstructions in the flow of the warp currents.....hence your stones in the river. I'm definitely intrigued with this idea since it ultimately borrws from a number of sources. Again, we'd have the artefacts (or artefact of creation, if nothing else) and the potential of inclusion of some rather strange conditions reminsicent of the 'daemon world' concept without strictly needing to apply the Chaos imagery. In this we could also get into the "physics assimilation" mentioned by Destecado (though in reference to the warp; again I'm not keen on the image applied strictly here) but also some other fascinating potentials. This is the single best suggestion thus far, integrating the concepts of many. Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 10, 2004 11:34:38 GMT -5
Another thought to add credence to the idea of the creation of these fragmentary realities....isn't it thought that the Old Ones created the Warhammer Fantasy Universe by sort of closing off a section of our reality and then altering the rules of that "new" reality? I would imagine that this is not something that they could have done on the first try...or they thought they could but made mistakes. Perhaps these fragmentary realities are castoffs from their attempt to create the Warhammer Fantasy Universe.
It would also be interesting places to perhaps send people if they were trying to run the "rapids" at the Center of the Sector. These "stones" would obstruct the flow of the local warp, but things like ships, which are made to pass from one reality (materium to the warp and vice versa) might actually be able to pass into the "stones" winding up in a pocket universe.....
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Post by Kage2020 on May 10, 2004 11:54:34 GMT -5
That's actually how I saw it operating, out of interest. (The Warhammer world was in fact one that bridged the Horizon/upper manifold for some quirky reason.) It seems that we have forward progress at last. For personal reasons I envisaged seven proto-dimensional integrations or 'stones', but am willing to think about it. What is the favoured opinion as to who created these and to why? Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 10, 2004 17:02:18 GMT -5
That sounds fine with me. Having them developed by the Old Ones works well. It provides a possibility of how they may have gone about building the Warhammer Fantasy realm. It also "humanizes" them, showing that they didn't have all the answers and sometimes made mistakes.
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