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Post by Sikkukkut on Apr 19, 2004 11:29:34 GMT -5
Oooh that lovely mass limit. 2.52 Sol isn't it? <Kage has hazy recollection created by chappie whose name is even harder to remember... Chandrash... something> Chandrasekhar.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 19, 2004 12:14:22 GMT -5
<Kage's excitement deflates> And here was me thinking that someone other than Destecado and CELS were contributing to this potentially important discussion. With that said, however, thanks for that. Always forget that beggers name... No further comments, Sikkukkut? I've been thinking, or rather rethinking, about the tension between a wholly natural phenomenon and a wholly artificial problem and, once again, would be intrigued if some middle ground could be found between them. E.g. the 'river' is natural, but the stones are artificial. It would be useful from a narrative point that something could be done about the 'artificial stones' so, in this regard, it might be bad to make them a significant stellar phenomenon, i.e. blackhole, neutron star (pulsar, etc.). It's very hard to "switch off" a pulsar, for example... (As a parallel issue, what do you think that a blackhole is going to do to the warp!?) Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 19, 2004 15:37:34 GMT -5
One theory is that an einstein-rosen bridge exists inside of a black hole which links it to either another reality or to another location in our space time. It may be that the other universe or dimension that it is linked to is the warp directly.
Would you perhaps have part of our reality being sucked out into the warp or coming out of a white hole somewhere else in our universe.....of course outside of the magnetic field of the white hole, general relativity does not allow for them to exist due to the Second Law of thermodynamic. That being said, the theory of general relativity breaks down within the filed of the black hole. So you wind up with a catch 22.
Even if the black hole connects to another place in our universe it must traverse a sub-sapce, which might be the warp. If it does this then the effects of its existance within the warp might cause the obstrutions you are looking for. It might be even more turbulent if the other end was not fixed, but moved from place to place. Due to causality, it is theorized that the white hole or other end of the worm hole would close the instant it was open in order to preserve causality (nothing can travel back in time or faster than the speed of light).
This is how many scientists allow for such objects without violating the theory of relativity. Again a catch 22 unless the mouth of the white hole is acted upon by negative energy or matter which cancels out that of the worm hole allowing it to be kept open.
The amount of negative enrgy required though would be tremendous, leading to the idea of tail of the black hole wipping around and touching down here and there in reality almost like the tail of a tornado. Perhaps this is the process or one of the processies that effects the developement of warp storms.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 19, 2004 16:23:31 GMT -5
Well, I asked... I think I'll go to a non-Warp space, although you're not really going to be able to survive the transition through the singularity. But I guess that reinforced the combination of natural phenomenon with artificial. <Kage has image of orks trying to find the off-switch to the black hole> Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 9:47:18 GMT -5
I'm kind of sceptical about this whole anomaly of rapids idea being there to keep people away from a tomb world in the center of the Sector. This idea is based on the supposition that only an outside force inadvertantly arriving on the world will wake the Necrons.
The Necrons have been roused on several worlds throughout the galaxy. As far as I am aware not all of the worlds where they have begun to rouse were visisted or caused by outside interuption of their slumber. Why is it not just as possible for the Necrons to sound out a signal to their brether to awake from their stasis induced slumber. It would be kind of like the "All Clear" signal after an air raid.
I personally am more in favor of it being the feeding ground of a former C'tan. It could also be the place of death of that same C'tan. Do you think that the Necrons have a concept of "Hallowed or Sacred" ground? Would the death place of one of their gods be such a place? Maybe they have erected some kind of field to keep people out of that area of space.
It could also be a battle ground from the time of the war in Heaven where the Blackstone Fortresses (Talismans of Vaul) were used to hunt down and destroy the C'tan that inhabited this region of space. Perhaps they finally caught him and destroyed him in the Cursed Sub-Sector.
Actually, a question comes to mind. what happens when you kill a C'tan. I'm not talking about killing the shells that house the Deceiver and Nightbringer in the current 40k, but about a C'tan in its true form. These are creatures that use to feed off of stellar matter. If destroyed by one of the talismans of vaul, what would be left?
What if there is a dense nebula that is actually the remains of the C'tan. Although there is no consciousness of the creature left, there is still a resonance. People passing through the nebula report strange sensations and hearing things like echos of voices when no one is there. This might be one of the things that makes people leary of thraveling into the Cursed Sector or the Heart of the Sector.
I know you were not interested in the idea of the stellar nursery, but just to take the above thought to a logical conclusion, if the C'tan consumed stellar matter and when it died it formed a nebula, it would be interesting if that nebula then became a stellar nursery. It shows the cycle of birth to death to new life.
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Post by Minister on Apr 20, 2004 9:50:34 GMT -5
I don't know how well it would work, but I do like it...
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 20, 2004 14:30:46 GMT -5
I'm kind of sceptical about this whole anomaly of rapids idea being there to keep people away from a tomb world in the center of the Sector. This idea is based on the supposition that only an outside force inadvertantly arriving on the world will wake the Necrons. Yes, there is that. Which is why it was originally going to be an artificial creation which 'holds' the necrons... Of course, decreasing the chance of them waking up by not allowing people there might be valuable. It's better than doing nothing with the centre and 'leaving it to chance'. Why is it not just as possible for the Necrons to sound out a signal to their brether to awake from their stasis induced slumber. It would be kind of like the "All Clear" signal after an air raid. It is entirely possible. Of course, it also hasn't been mentioned as occurring in the 'fluff'. But the .sig says it all. I personally am more in favor of it being the feeding ground of a former C'tan. It could also be the place of death of that same C'tan. Requiring the shifting of black holes, supernova shells, etc., to be the centre... It does work and go with the original idea of Do you think that the Necrons have a concept of "Hallowed or Sacred" ground? Would the death place of one of their gods be such a place? I don't really see a reason why they would... Maybe they have erected some kind of field to keep people out of that area of space. It's possible I suppose. If destroyed by one of the talismans of vaul, what would be left? The problem is that the imagery on the C'tan is extremely glitchy. What if there is a dense nebula that is actually the remains of the C'tan. You could similarly argue that it would be the expanding gas cloud of a supernova shell. Indeed, the destructive imagery would be more in keeping with the 'killing' idea. This might be one of the things that makes people leary of thraveling into the Cursed Sector or the Heart of the Sector. Erm, there are a lot of dead C'tan suddenly turning around. Plus, I'm personally against this broad-ranging psychometry. it would be interesting if that nebula then became a stellar nursery. It shows the cycle of birth to death to new life. Now that actually is rather a fascinating concept. I'm still not keen on having that as the 'Heart of Anargo' but it really is quite fascinating... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 14:56:05 GMT -5
I'll see what other information I can dig up on the C'tan....as sketchy as it is. Perhaps we can construct a working model of what they were like before interaction with the Necrontyr and how they were changed after....other than the obvious (feeding on souls instead of stars). I'll also see if I can track down an idea of how many C'tan existed before the war with the old ones and among themselves. If I remember correctly, I think there were at least a dozen, but I could be mistaken.
Once we have a model of the C'tan, we can possibly get a better understanding about how their "physiology" works. Even if we don't use the iea for explaining the center of the sector. Being able to better define the C'tan and maybe the Necrontyr will help the porject in the long run. I'm sure that they will spring up both in the wargame and the RPG.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 20, 2004 15:23:49 GMT -5
Thinking about the 'dying C'tan' concept, in retrospect I would be rather more keen on the supernova image. The whole release of heavy elements and the cycle of 'different life' doesn't require that they turn into nebulae upon their 'death'. Both the science and the imagery would be correct in this regard... I'll see what other information I can dig up on the C'tan....as sketchy as it is. Perhaps we can construct a working model of what they were like before interaction with the Necrontyr and how they were changed after.... Seems that the consensus is broadly that they were complex magnetic fields. (cf. Attannasio's Dragon and the Unicorn book.) They were somehow compressed into the necrodermis and 'bound' since destruction of that form doesn't actually release the C'tan... Which is where you get into the horrendous imagery about "sending them into the warp" (which addmittedly was a part of the original suggestion for a function of the 'stones'). Even if we don't use the iea for explaining the center of the sector. Well, since it's a cool idea I'm sure that there is a supernova shell nearby... (see above). Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 16:43:27 GMT -5
Thinking about the 'dying C'tan' concept, in retrospect I would be rather more keen on the supernova image. The whole release of heavy elements and the cycle of 'different life' doesn't require that they turn into nebulae upon their 'death'. Both the science and the imagery would be correct in this regard... That sounds reasonable, but would what was left over form a quasar or would we be looking at just an expanding cloud of gas dispersiing itself across the cosmos? Wow imagine if the wake of the supernova passing over a world was what stimulated the growth of life n that system. It could be how one of the minor races we are looking to include was set upon its evolutionary path. what do you think? Seems that the consensus is broadly that they were complex magnetic fields. (cf. Attannasio's Dragon and the Unicorn book.) They were somehow compressed into the necrodermis and 'bound' since destruction of that form doesn't actually release the C'tan... God, it almost makes them sound like sentient black holes.....or maybe higher dimensional creatures. Actually that is an interesting thought. Imagine if they were creatures that existed in a higher dimension and the only way that we could observe them was by the magnetic field they gave off. I read an interesting piece of fiction that describe a boy in a two dimensional world encountering a three dimentsional object. the object was a sphere passing through his two dimensional plane that to him appeared to expand and cntract as it passed through. Unable to conceive of the three dimentional object, the two dimensional boy is only able to describe its two dimensional aspect as it passes through his reality. similarly the necrodermis might be a prison that locks this higher dimensional being into a three dimensional object.....It needs some work, but what do you think? Which is where you get into the horrendous imagery about "sending them into the warp" (which addmittedly was a part of the original suggestion for a function of the 'stones'). Instead of sending them into the warp, perhaps it releases them from their three dimensional prison. Still unable to return to what they were, they supernova due to all the stored up energy and disperse across the cosmos....
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 20, 2004 17:41:27 GMT -5
That sounds reasonable, but would what was left over form a quasar or would we be looking at just an expanding cloud of gas dispersiing itself across the cosmos? Expanding ball of gas and heavy elements, for me. Wow imagine if the wake of the supernova passing over a world was what stimulated the growth of life n that system. Well, maybe not in the whole Star Trek II/III "genesis device" fashion but, yes, it would be entirely possible. The introduction of elements which at least in the mammalian physiology have a significant impact upon the metabolism would be useful for the development of life. Not definite development of life, just possible... It could be how one of the minor races we are looking to include was set upon its evolutionary path. what do you think? I would say that, perhaps ironically, it was that which created the Old Ones and the basis of all life in the 40k universe... God, it almost makes them sound like sentient black holes.....or maybe higher dimensional creatures. Actually that is an interesting thought. Imagine if they were creatures that existed in a higher dimension and the only way that we could observe them was by the magnetic field they gave off. LMAO! It's a fascinating concept. Indeed, I include such undeveloped concepts into my own personal interpretaiton of the universe ala the "super" and "sub" Manifold spaces... But we'd have some considerable trouble integrating this into the 40k universe... They've got enough trouble with 5 (ish)... similarly the necrodermis might be a prison that likes this higher dimensional being into a three dimensional object.....It needs some work, but what do you think? Likes=links? It would create a rather interesting tension between technology and magic (i.e. sufficiently high technology = magic), but perhaps a bit too... erm... advanced and/or unconventional? Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 17:55:15 GMT -5
Expanding ball of gas and heavy elements, for me. Since it has been expanding since the War in Heaven Era, how far do you think it would have gotten. What would be its interaction with the other nebulas in the sector it encounters.... have also been considering the thought that instead of having all of these nebulas throughout the Sector, perhaps they were all part of one larger nebula that became dispersed. Could the supernova explosion of a C'tan have been the cause? Well, maybe not in the whole Star Trek II/III "genesis device" fashion but, yes, it would be entirely possible. The introduction of elements which at least in the mammalian physiology have a significant impact upon the metabolism would be useful for the development of life. Not definite development of life, just possible... I wasn't going for anything that cheesy, but the introduction of heavy elements as well as the radiation that it would bathe planets in, might be conducive to the developement of life.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 21, 2004 19:47:32 GMT -5
The problem here comes with the somewhat extended timeline that GW is fond of since it engenders the "fantasy feel" (i.e. homogeneity and stasis is the key! : . With that said, I'm presuming that after 60 My the majority of observerable characteristics of a supernova explosion are going to have disappeared, unfortunately. After all, isn't the guestimate that they occur approximately every century? But the 'nebula' post-death concept just doesn't sit right. So that would be a 'no' (at the moment!) on that one! This post once again reiterates (!) the requirement for a good 'idea' about the 'heart of Anargo'. Any suggestions from someone other than Destecado and CELS ? At the moment it seesm that the "big decisions" are being made by a rather limited number of people and that seems, for the most part, a shame. Make your opinion known! Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 22, 2004 11:51:40 GMT -5
Well I know your getting sick of hearing from me on this topic but I did a little digging on the C'tan and Necrontyr. Besides being scetchy, the history is simple to the point of being ridiculous. But since it is the only thing we have to work with on the subject, I present it here, along with the comments of how we can perhaps incorporate it into the Anargo Sector. As old as the stars themselves, sentient beings were born within the roiling energy of massive stars. These would in later millennia be known and feared as the C'tan gods. These beings lived off the energy of newly born stars, completely ignorant of the cooler planetary systems forming around them and the sentient beings beginning to flourish. The earliest of the sentient beings who mastered star travel were the Slaan.I know you are not fond of the stellar nursery idea.....and I'm not going to say that the should be one in the heart of the sector at this time. That said, I think we may want to consider the possibility of one having existed here at a time prior to the war in heaven. From reading the above, it struck me that the nacent C'tan may have been creatures created out of the swirling gasses and constantly changing magnetic and gravitational forces inherrant inside of stellar nurseries or nebula. The above seems to indicate that they existed prior to the Old Ones and even prior to the dust and gases within the accretion disks of stellar bodies forming into planets. they were perhaps the first "sentient" beings that existed in the newly formed universe. The Necrontyr was born in a terrible star system. Constantly bombarded by their ultra radiant star, they had but a very short life and all their energy was focused in to scientific achievements aimed at survival. As they came in to contact with the Old Ones, the longevity nearing on near immortality and mastery of the universe the latter displayed resulted in terrible and vengeful conflict. Despite the scientifically advanced nature of the Necrontyr, they were consistently outmaneuvered by the old ones who used their warp portals and understanding of the universe to dramatic effect. The Necrontyr were pushed back to their system. It was then that the Necrontyr somehow tapped the potential of the sentient beings within the stars, awakening what would eventually be the truly awesome might of the C'tan Gods.
These beings provided the Necrontyr with terrible weapons of war and as a final gift harvested the entire population in to automatons, giving them the immortality they had so dearly sought. The entire Necrontyr civilization then became necrons, the mechanical slaves of the C'tan gods.IMO the above information is open to wide interpretation. Personally I do not feel that it was the C'tan that enslaved the Necrontyr, but that the rulers of the Necrontyr used the C'tan as a means to enslave their poeple and bring them more under their control. Little has been said about the religion of the Necronty, but imagine if the high priest of their religion was able to say that the star that caused them to die so you was due to the anger of their gods and then he was able to produce an actual stellar being who descended among the people. These "living" gods would give the people something to rally around, to motivate them, to mobilize them and take that big step to full conversion into machines. What did the C'tan get out of it? Continued existance. Inprisonment in the Necrodermis appears to have cut them off from their ability to feed on stars. They instead would have to make due with the energy from souls or other sources. this allowed the Necrontyr "priests" to control the gods and also use them as a weapon against their enemies. Maybe the C'tan got out of hand or were able to throw of the yoke of the priests and in revenge, sucked down the souls of the Necrontyr and made them their slaves. They needed them in order to track down more sustinence and war amongst themselves. Armed with terrible weapons of war and supported by their inhumane gods, the Necrons now took the battle back to the Old Ones. Hundreds upon hundreds of civilizations nurtured by the Old Ones became fodder for the C'tan gods as billions were culled without mercy. The essence of life becoming a much sought after morsel amongst those terrible gods. It was around this time that the C'tan Gods turned amongst each other, consuming one another with hated passion until only four were left.Life in the galaxy was still young and had not spread far f at all from its home systems. This would mean that it life or souls were a finit commodity. My thoughts are that perhaps the C'tan fought amongst themselves in the Anargo Sector, with the fictor moving on while the loser exploded into a supernova with the utter destruction of its Necrodermis. If you prefer, perhaps it was a previously undiscovered C'tan still in its true form that was attacked by either the forces of the Old Ones, afraid that it would be found by the Necrontyr or maybe another C'tan attacking it. Either way, the resulting explosion would have been catostrophic (several times the magnitude of the normal supernovas that occur in a stellar nursery. It would probably have blown away a good portion of the gases or consumed the free hydrogen in the explosion. What are your thoughts?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 24, 2004 8:14:21 GMT -5
Besides being scetchy, the history is simple to the point of being ridiculous. Of course it is... and full of holes. That said, I think we may want to consider the possibility of one having existed here at a time prior to the war in heaven. I'm not sure of the time-scale of the 'life' of stellar nurseries. You seem to want to extend the history of the Anargo sector all the way back... From reading the above, it struck me that the nacent C'tan may have been creatures created out of the swirling gasses and constantly changing magnetic and gravitational forces inherrant inside of stellar nurseries or nebula. The idea that they are creates of 'magnetism/gravity' is not really that novel, and has been suggested frequently. (Including above.) What is more questionable is the subsequent nature of the 'entrapment' and why upon the destruction of the physical form the C'tan do not return to a more natural state... they were perhaps the first "sentient" beings that existed in the newly formed universe. Again, that's just the 'fluff'. Nothing surprising there. Personally I do not feel that it was the C'tan that enslaved the Necrontyr, but that the rulers of the Necrontyr used the C'tan as a means to enslave their poeple and bring them more under their control. A reasonable assumption that is 'fluff' transparent. It still doesn't for me, answer the really interesting question (above). They instead would have to make due with the energy from souls or other sources. The 'fluff' suggested that it was more to do with the 'taste' than the energy. Either way, the resulting explosion would have been catostrophic (several times the magnitude of the normal supernovas that occur in a stellar nursery. It would probably have blown away a good portion of the gases or consumed the free hydrogen in the explosion. What are your thoughts? The combines the two aspects, I suppose. I'm not overtly satisfied with the explanation of the 'imprisoning' of the C'tan, although I do believe that they were imprisoned. Kage
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