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Post by Kage2020 on May 4, 2004 16:03:22 GMT -5
The geller field is not necessary. So you're suggesting it's more a natural byproduct of being in the warp? If you want to think about it a different way, you could say that each individual has their own geller field or personal reality. I now have images of people whizzing around in their own personal little fields... who needs space ships!? It has been called chi, personal energy or other names, but it is the personal energy field that keeps the predominant amount of your personl particles together in a given place. The field now becomes the merging of 'soul' and 'body'... I have always found it interesting that alot of the ships inside of a space hulk appear to have merged into each other rather than having crashed nto each other. Ultimately you're describing physics assimilation as it is termed in another game system. With that said, however, it doesn't actually say that they don't crash together... But that's an aside. The space hulks can be pulled back through by the orks, or there are fluctuations in the thickness of the outer wall of the bubble. Now you're bubble sounds like a verison of your Gauntlet. What the imperium considers warp entities I see as beings from another reality. Erm, by definition. The reality of the where deamons originate is more maleable than our own. Interestingly this just ties in with my 'Realms of Chaos' idea, but there we go. The mixture of these two different realities may be what cause the formation of warp storms during the age of strife. Which was what I talked about with interaction of the manifold spaces... But then again my physics explanations only go so far. The force of the field is directly related to the thickness of the wall of the reality bubble at the point that the ship is jumping from. Which creates an inherent problem: don't jump from an area that is commonly jumped from. I hope I explained this well enough earlier in my post, but I can give more detail if you feel it's needed. Less the detail but the way that you explain things... Problem when you're trying to detail how you envisage things. <sigh> Hmmn... Not quite sure what to say. The coupling of 'proplusion' with 'Geller Field' is something that I've suggested before (though again I find the 'sphere' somewhat boorish! ). Turning off the field creates an assimilatory effect, which is fair enough. That 'warp creatures' (or rather daemons) don't come from the 'travel space' (Torison space) is fine by me since it ties in with my own ideas, but - heck! - I'm bound to say that. I'm most unkeen on relating the 'thickness' of your natural field to the "gauntlet": it just doesn't strike me as right, somehow. It would, for example, destabilise the use of warp gates. Yes, I know that you were suggesting it was a natural property but, again, that doesn't quite sit right... Again, I remind you that I rather like the idea. I'm not keen on some of the concepts but the rest has potential. Perhaps it would be useful, given the other thread and entirely for my benefit, to compare this with some of the base concepts that I generated. Since we share some common interpretations to some of the features (ish) it might be a useful point of integration, especially when we begin to talk about Webway, etc. As to CWC's reality bubble idea...? No, sorry. Cannot summarise it since I disliked it enough to erase it from my mind. I believe it was in an "Alternative approach to the 40k universe...?" thread if you're willing to search the archives there (I'm the author of the thread). Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 4, 2004 16:36:59 GMT -5
So you're suggesting it's more a natural byproduct of being in the warp? I now have images of people whizzing around in their own personal little fields... who needs space ships!? Actually its more of an integrity field, the resonance given off by the bonds between the particles that make up a body or object. The field now becomes the merging of 'soul' and 'body'... This of course goes back to the idea that what people ascribe as a soul is just another neergy form. The soul is also a creation of religion, searching for a higher meaning or being in life. Now you're bubble sounds like a verison of your Gauntlet. That was not intentional. What I was trying to point out is that the outer layer of the bubble is not of a consistant thickness. As with a normal bubble that can be warped by changing air currents, the bubble reality is warped by the energy and gravitational fields inside of it. this leads to a certain thinkness in certain area and others where the outer soapy layer is relatively thin. Which creates an inherent problem: don't jump from an area that is commonly jumped from. I don't think that the jumping process would cause the area to thicken....at least not for too long. the time for transferse to warp space (outer soapy layer) would be too small to draw too much thickness to the jump area. It might leave a warp wake though. There would be the ripples (like a stone thrown into a lake) out from the transition point. This might be a way to track a warp jump or warn of incoming ships. I'm most unkeen on relating the 'thickness' of your natural field to the "gauntlet": it just doesn't strike me as right, somehow. It would, for example, destabilise the use of warp gates. Yes, I know that you were suggesting it was a natural property but, again, that doesn't quite sit right... Its still a work in process. We can define it better or find a feasible work around. the reason for the bubble or at least the spere is due to the idea of the big bang which would have spread matter from a central point in all directions at a given velocity. It is the nature of its creation, but the sphere is actually quite arbitrary. If you think about it, the idea of something jumping from the center of the sphere to the outside would seem irrational. This is where the idea of fractals comes in. From my earlier post, the fractal space inside of the circle (or in this case sphere) can measure large than the diameter. The fractal dimensions make it possible for the interior of the sphere to be accessable to the outside. Ultimately you're describing physics assimilation as it is termed in another game system. With that said, however, it doesn't actually say that they don't crash together... But that's an aside. I think they would come together more like the gasses and heavy elements in the accretion disc of a star. Of course we are talking about ships carshing into eachother, but the priciple of how a moon or planet is formed in a stars accretion disk should justify the creation of space hulks.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 5, 2004 15:48:35 GMT -5
Actually its more of an integrity field, the resonance given off by the bonds between the particles that make up a body or object. In that case, no. An object should not naturally project a 'protective field' around itself. That is in the nature of warp drives in the 'fluff', either the Geller Field, EM shields or the 'etheric sails' depending on your interpretation. Having it as an 'integrity' field inherent in matter isn't 'transparent' nor does it really parallel the 'fluff'. Of course, I could be misunderstanding... but based upon the statements thus far it would not seem so. Also, while it is useful to couch the description of the 'warp' in pseudo-scientific terms I think we should avoid subscribing entirely to the scientific paradigm. We construct a framework of understanding, not use current understand to construct the warp... Hmmn, not an entirely clear point but I'm sure the gist is there. This of course goes back to the idea that what people ascribe as a soul is just another neergy form. The soul is also a creation of religion, searching for a higher meaning or being in life. The irony of this is quite amusing given me normal tendency to move away from the concept of the soul. Also, while it is resident in the 'warp' there is nothing to say that it is resident in that portion which ships travel through (indeed, I personally ascribe it to the upper manifold - 'God space' - now that I think about it. That puts it next to the Realms of Chaos, ish, and therefore the first stop of point to the matterium by bypassing the Gauntlet...). The soul does have a reality in the 40k universe. It will therefore be present, even if... removed. this leads to a certain thinkness in certain area and others where the outer soapy layer is relatively thin. A fair enough point... but again see the above points with regards to the things that are being thrown out of the explanation (and the explanation through physics rather than couching in scientific terms). Ultimately we're after a model, a framework, not trying to explain the warp. This might be a way to track a warp jump or warn of incoming ships. This can also be done psychometrically or observationally (warp drives), out of interest, and is a part of the 'fluff'. ... And at that point I'm going to be stopping. I'm not entirely comfortable with the explanations thus far for some of the above reasons. And perhaps move to email... I don't know. Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 6, 2004 15:27:30 GMT -5
In that case, no. An object should not naturally project a 'protective field' around itself. That is in the nature of warp drives in the 'fluff', either the Geller Field, EM shields or the 'etheric sails' depending on your interpretation. Having it as an 'integrity' field inherent in matter isn't 'transparent' nor does it really parallel the 'fluff'. It is not really a protection field, but just the resonance between the particles that make up an object or person. If you wish you could call it a objects spirit or soul. Many eastern religions speak of no only people, but inanimate objects having a spirit. the interaaction and flow of these forces are the basis behind feng shui and the idea of chi. I am not trying to say that a person entering into the warp remains unaffected by it. There is a tendancy of biological organisms to resist change. They try to achieve a state of homeostasis. The internal equilibrium of the body, the ultimate gauge of its proper functioning, involves the maintenance of a constant rate of concentration in the blood of certain molecules and ions that are essential to life and the maintenance at specified levels of other physical parameters such as temperature. This is accomplished in spite of modifications of the environment. This also occurs to some extent in inanimate objects, that try to retain their shape in the face of exterior stressors. metal expands when heated to try to accomidate the excess heat it absorbs. Over time the constant stresses placed by exterior stressors can warp or even cause the substance to break (metal fatigue). With biological organisms, it can cause them to mutate. this is why chaos space marines that reside mostly in the warp or in the dimension influences of the deamon dimension, stil look somewhat human, but usually bear horibble mutations. Also, while it is useful to couch the description of the 'warp' in pseudo-scientific terms I think we should avoid subscribing entirely to the scientific paradigm. We construct a framework of understanding, not use current understand to construct the warp... Hmmn, not an entirely clear point but I'm sure the gist is there. Most of what we come up with won't be published in the finished work. I see this mostly as trying to construct a framework on which we can hang such concepts as the warp routes, instabilitiy of deamons etc. A fair enough point... but again see the above points with regards to the things that are being thrown out of the explanation (and the explanation through physics rather than couching in scientific terms). Ultimately we're after a model, a framework, not trying to explain the warp. Exactly, we are only trying to describe the nature of the warp to build a framework. I don't think we have the mathmatic yet to describe the inter-relationship. I think part of the problem or where we may be misunderstanding each other on some points is do to the systems we are using. Quantum Cosmology can not be explained using newtonian physics. The mathmatics behind it are based off of particle physics, quantum mechanics and string theory. ... And at that point I'm going to be stopping. I'm not entirely comfortable with the explanations thus far for some of the above reasons. And perhaps move to email... I don't know. I'd be glad to discuss the topic through email if you prefer. Let me know what you descide.
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Post by Destecado on Jul 2, 2004 7:30:22 GMT -5
I've been giving the nature of the Warp more thought since our earlier discussions and think I may have come up with a better way to eplain the warp and the currents that run through it.
As we all know based on general relativity, the idea of faster than light travel is impossible. A new theory to explain the Universe may provide a way around or negate this impossibility al together. This is the theory of Quantum Cosmology. This theory uses the laws of quantum mechanics to explain the entire universe.
Although the Universe is made up of large systems (which general relativity describes) as they are broken down into their constituent particles, general relativity begins to break down and quantum theory takes over. This might mean that quantum mechanics are the underpinning of everything.
This made me consider the idea of the warp existing as quantum space, where all things a represented as the particles that make them up rther than as solid objects. The energy necessary to transition into the warp is used to turn the ship and its occupants into a stream of particles.
It can be thought of in a similar manner to the transporter used in Star Trek, which breaks matter down into a stream of particles and then transmits it to a receiving terminal. Unlike the transporter though, the ship reintegrates itself when it exists warp space.
Many of you might be asking why when they are in warp space don't people feel like a stream of particles but see themselves and others as solid. I think some of this can be explained by particle density. Although the ship and individuals have been reduced to subatomic particles, they still group together or have an attraction to each other.
Another part of the explnation might be described by something brought up in the original matrix movie. I can't rememebr the exact wording, but it dealt with the first time the Neo went into the simulation program with Morpheus. He appeared as he had in the Matrix. It is tied with self identity, memry or how we view ourselves. Suffice to say it acts as an "integrity field" to hold together the subatomic particles of a person transitioning through warp space.
This might also serve as a reasoning behind space hulks. Most often when space hulks are shown, they apper to be several ships fused. The ships seem to flow into each other rather than having crashed into each other. It may be that the particle streams for the ships had intermixed, so that as they transitioned back into reality, they emerged not as descrete entities, but as a fused whole.
A good example of this is from the movie the Fly, when the fly is caught in the teleport booth with Jeff Goldblum. Instead of being reintegrated as two seperate entities, the booth joins them together in one new matrix.
As you can probably tell from the rough nature of the above explanation, I'm still trying to work out all of the intricacies behind this idea. Please let me know what you think of this theory or if you have any questions.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 2, 2004 11:53:02 GMT -5
I'm going to keep the 'ole trap shut until I hear a more developed idea. The idea of reducing objects to a particle stream in the warp which maintains integrity in the way you describe - even initial idea as it sounds - seems entirely off. Once again I suggest that while the scientific method in application to the 40k universe is a good thing, we must not be constrained by explaining everything in scientific terms. As a sci-fantasy game pseudo-science is often good enough. With that said, however, if it does have a basis in 'reality' that's great... but it also means that if we can construct a plausible system without reference to a specific theory of science, that's also fine. With that general comment aside, I'll wait for that more developed idea of yours. Just to say, however, that you're got an uphill struggle since I was completely turned off with the quantum cosmology explanation of the warp...
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Post by CELS on Jul 2, 2004 21:23:11 GMT -5
Though it's admirable for you to apply quantum physics to the warp, and though it would be... convenient to apply some laws to the warp, to facilitate explanation of warp storms, warp routes, etc.... well... I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Kage. 40k is as much fantasy as it is science, and there are some things that couldn't and shouldn't be explained with physics. The warp, for example. And I'm also a bit turned off by the idea of particle streams... it's an imagery thing..
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Post by zholud on Jul 2, 2004 23:29:59 GMT -5
As for me particles flow idea is just as fantasy as elves… you meet to many problems with it, namely why different parts of organism work the same way and image of muscles responds to signal sent by image of nerves, why electrical impulses can be transmitted at all. I guess even lasgun cannot operate here, not such super construction as bio-organism…
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Post by Destecado on Jul 6, 2004 9:48:22 GMT -5
I agree that 40k is a Sci-Fantasy game and perhaps hard science is a little to drastic to apply to the concept, so let me try to explain my idea in a different way. Can we at least agree that the most basic form of matter that can exist is as pure energy? All matter if broken down releases energy as the bonds that hold it together are broken.
The manner in which I view upper manifold space (the void) is as a sea of pure energy. What we call reality is that same energy, but locked into specific shapes and forms. What causes the formation of a given reality? I don't think we need to go into specifics here. Perhaps it is a "godlike entity" who says let there be light, seperating and dividing the energy into land sea...ect. A reality could just as easily form like a star over time cndensing down until in a spark it ignights (similar to the concept of the big bang).
However it occurs, it becomes seperate and distinct from upper manifold space (the void). Though seperate and distinct, these relities are not without cracks. These would be ares where the laws of reality seem to weaken or actually be contradictory. One such possible crack might be Bremuda Triangle. think of all the strange and odd occurances that happen there.
Even where cracks don't exist, the warp or the energy paterrns from outside can exert influence on our reality. There were people who learned to tap into this vast reserve of energy. Sme called them magicians or sorcerers. Others created such sciences as Fung Shui and the Ba-Gua. They are what we call psychers today.
Back to the idea of cracks in reality. It is my belief is that warp engines work by creating an artificial crack in reality through which the ship slips out of our reality and into the WARP.
The WARP is the boundary between our reality and uppermanifold space (the void). It is in a constate state of flux as the energy that makes it up interacts woith our reality. The best way to think of the warp is like the condensation on the outside of a cold glass. the cold glass would be our reality and the warm air surrounding it is upper manifold space. The reality inside the glass, in this case a cold liquid, attracts enery 9moisture droplets) from the surrounding void. these droplets coaless on the fringe of the reality (pick up the cold from inside the glass) and form condensation.
This is a very simplified example, but it shows that our reality has an effect on the warp surrounding it. The energy forms into natural patterns that create the currents and the flow following the path of least resistance. These pathways are the currents and eddies that we observe in the warp.
Just as our reality exerts an influence on the warp, it to exerts an influence on our reality. This force is entropy. Matter seeks to return to its most basic state as energy. There is a constant opposition or battle between these two forces. It is like the atmosphere of a planet. Generally the atmosphere wishes to escape into space, while the force of gravity fights to hold it in. By this hypothesis, a reality must be of a certain mass or density in order to maintain itself. otherwise entropy will eventually catch up with it and return it to the upper manifold (the void).
This may be what is affecting the fragments of the reality in the Heart of the Sector. Eventually they will disapate all together, either being drawn into our reality or returning as energy to the upper manifold.
I hope this explanation of my idea make more sense. Please let me know what you think. even if we do not use it, I think it would be intriguing to tie in the currents of the warp with the flow of Feng Shui.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 6, 2004 11:36:51 GMT -5
Can we at least agree that the most basic form of matter that can exist is as pure energy? All matter if broken down releases energy as the bonds that hold it together are broken. That seems eminently reasonable. Most people are also familiar with the second law of thermodynamics, so that's always useful... The manner in which I view upper manifold space (the void)... You're going to have to be careful here. The upper manifold is something specific to my interpretation of the warp. Furthermore, in doing so broad conformance to the nature of the upper manifold is useful... What causes the formation of a given reality? I don't think we need to go into specifics here. Perhaps it is a "godlike entity" who says let there be light, seperating and dividing the energy into land sea...ect. By definition of the upper manifold of my interpretation, it is consensual reality. Good 'ole Kant. A reality could just as easily form like a star over time cndensing down until in a spark it ignights (similar to the concept of the big bang). The concept of this space is that they would be related to some conceptual reality, not aggregate as a process inherent of energy fields or chaos theorem. However it occurs, it becomes seperate and distinct from upper manifold space (the void). When you put it in this way you're suggesting that the origin is ultimately a result of consensus (or at least consensus of the subconscious), in which case you're talking about the Otherworlds again. As indeed you say... Though seperate and distinct, these relities are not without cracks. And so you're talking about proto-dimensional links... the 'ole wormhole-not-a-wormhole approach of linking them together? Back to the idea of cracks in reality. It is my belief is that warp engines work by creating an artificial crack in reality through which the ship slips out of our reality and into the WARP. Nothing surprising there. If you consider the 'fluff' in Farseer it is clear that natural cracks also exist. (I'm reminded of the concept of "daemon space" in Dark Conspiracy at this point.) This is a very simplified example, but it shows that our reality has an effect on the warp surrounding it. A feature that we've already determined. The energy forms into natural patterns that create the currents and the flow following the path of least resistance. These pathways are the currents and eddies that we observe in the warp. This is the natural warp, the one unhindred by the 'canker of Chaos'... By this hypothesis, a reality must be of a certain mass or density in order to maintain itself. otherwise entropy will eventually catch up with it and return it to the upper manifold (the void). But from the origin this must be maintained, ultimately, in consensus.
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Post by Destecado on Jul 7, 2004 8:25:34 GMT -5
You're going to have to be careful here. The upper manifold is something specific to my interpretation of the warp. Furthermore, in doing so broad conformance to the nature of the upper manifold is useful... Ok, so my concept of the void might not correspond entirely with upper manifold space, but I'm unclear what you mean by broad conformance to its nature. By definition of the upper manifold of my interpretation, it is consensual reality. Good 'ole Kant. The concept of this space is that they would be related to some conceptual reality, not aggregate as a process inherent of energy fields or chaos theorem. Could you explain this in more detail? When you put it in this way you're suggesting that the origin is ultimately a result of consensus (or at least consensus of the subconscious), in which case you're talking about the Otherworlds again. Reality is subjective. It is arrived at by consensus of those within it. If you were to take some one out of that reality, they would still try to associate its "laws" to their surroundings, because it is the foundation on which all of their experience is based. This is what I previously described as the integrity or resonace of an individual object. It is not so much a geller field, but the belief of the individual in its own existance. Even when cut off from its "parent reality" the individual is able to retain a mental picture of its self and thereby able to retain coherency. Of course outside stimulus can affect this mental picture and there by perhaps lead to a break down of the individual. Kage I know that you are familiar with Traveller. In that system, when a ship is traveling through hyper space, no one looks out the portals, because there is a grey nothingness outside. This grey nothingness is thought to cause people to go insane. Other systems use similar descriptions of what lays outside the ship during transition through hyperspace. I think that in the context of our discussion, the grey nothingness represents the void or atleast warp space. there are no features for the eye to latch on to. All conception of distances an scale are lost. the effect may be enough to shake the metal picture held by the individual and cause them to lose track of themselves (give into the entropic effects). I have a real life experience that in part mirrors this phenomenon. I was snorkling off a reef in the carribean. The water was so clear you could see to the bottom. It was only about ten to fifteen feet deep. As I was snorkling with my face in the water, I did not notice that I was nearing the edge of the reef. As I swam a little further the sea floor just fell away to over 50-100 feet. I could no longer see the bottom. The sudden change of perspective was quite jarring at first. A sudden feeling of being extremely small compared to the fastness of the depth came upon me. It took me about a minute to regain my bearings. Staring out into the greyness may have a similar effect, if the individual was not in a ship which was equipped with a geller field (a bubble of reality) it probably would not be able to regain its bearings. The more complex an object or organism, the greater the effect of entropy (the warp) upon it. this is why people go mad first when looking out into the grey nothingness. The brain is possibly the most complex part of our body and gives into the effects of entropy first. this would possibly hold true for machines as well. And so you're talking about proto-dimensional links... the 'ole wormhole-not-a-wormhole approach of linking them together? I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I'll try to give an explanation. Energy builds up in a reality. creating enormous stresses. A reality can combat this by expanding, like our own universe. Of course the build up and realease of energy in a reality is not uniform and does not always match the rate of expansion. Sometimes stress cracks in a reality form. These allow a kind of out gassing to relieve the internal pressure. An example of this might be the formation of a black hole after a supernova. Others may be naturally occuring like vents (wormholes) that work to distribute the stress over the entire reality. It may be that the warp engine creates an artificial singularity or black hole, that instead of sending it to another reality or part of our own, ejects it from subjective reality all together into the surrounding warp. this might help to explain why the ship must move a safe distance from a system (and all gravity wells) in order to jump into warp space. This is the natural warp, the one unhindred by the 'canker of Chaos'... The Canker of Chaos...is humanity itself. A chorus of disenting voices and opinions. This is what creates the tumult in the warp. Unshielded minds unconditioned minds can effect the continuity of the warp. You would probably find stronger or more numerous war currents in areas of the galaxy with large population densities. Events such as the wiping out of an entire planet by the inquisition will also have a dramatic effect on the flow of the warp. In some ways, the warp has alot in common with the idea of the Force from Star Wars. But from the origin this must be maintained, ultimately, in consensus. That depends on how you view a reality as being built. If it is a coming together of many particles into something like a big bang, then yes. If instead it is formed by an outside being, then the reality could be maintained by its will alone. Of course if this entity were removed the reality might start to degrade. A third possibility is a reality created by and outside being, but set up to allow those entities that develope inside of it to take up the burden or to maintain the continuity of the reality. The proto-dimensions that exist near the Heart of the Sector I think fall into the second or third variety. Made as a prisn for the Necrons, they were possibly intended to have an overseer to maintain them. When the overseer was removed, the internal instabilities of the dimension began to build up until it fractured. It may be that one or two of the proto-dimensions are still stable, because the entities that have developed within have taken over or maintained the consensual reality. The others may be slowly deteriorating. Which opens up interesting possibilities for strong psychers, who can perhaps impose their own reality in such an enviroment.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 7, 2004 11:59:20 GMT -5
Ok, so my concept of the void might not correspond entirely with upper manifold space, but I'm unclear what you mean by broad conformance to its nature. Oh, nothing bad was intended by the comment. I'm merely suggesting that if you're going to use the term 'upper manifold', which has some rather specific connotations, then it can become somewhat confusing when you digress from how I see it... Hmmn, that sounds childish. What I'm trying to get at, however, is that ultimately the whole concept of the manifold spaces, the differentiation of the warp into different "layers", etc. - what Sojourner calls "Kage-blah" - is something of my creation. (Until I found out that WW had done something similar as well! ) When you use the terms I tend to automatically slip into the "rut" and if you're meaning something different this could be a problem... Could you explain this in more detail? Erm... perhaps. Merely that the form and state of reality is a product of sentient beings who 'inhabit' the correspondence point (to borrow MtA terminology) or, rather, implicate space (to borrow holographic theory terminology). In many ways it is the ultimate 'fency sitting' space. On one side you've got the rational, ordered and categorised approach of the warp (torison space and lower, down to the matterium), and on the other you've got the subconcious creations of the otherworlds (Realms of Chaos). Ultimately shifts in the boundaries are a result of changes in consensus. This is what I previously described as the integrity or resonace of an individual object. Which is limited by the individual ability to determine the extent of that reality. Otherwise they must conform to the consensus reality itself. That is to say that while they may wish to conform their own reality, the 'momentum' of consensus - established belief, that is - will tend to negate such effects. Of course, certain individuals have the ability to impose their concept of reality of reality to a greater extent: psykers, at least potentially. Thus while I agree that an individual can keep a 'mental picture of themselves', I would also suggest that is a stretch to apply it necessarily to the warp. More so with the idea that, once again, the Geller Field is more a shield... <sigh> Darned 'fluff'. In that system, when a ship is traveling through hyper space, no one looks out the portals, because there is a grey nothingness outside. This grey nothingness is thought to cause people to go insane. Yes, but playing within the system doesn't mean that you have to accept everything, as well you know. The above is like saying that if you paint the windows of a house grey that people are going to go insane... there are no features for the eye to latch on to. Although this is also true. The warp does have features, as described in the 'fluff'. Not only those that are perceptible to imaging devices/sensors, but also to the naked (non-psionic eye)... I'm going to have to stop at this point... Need to get some subsector maps done... :S
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