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Post by CELS on Feb 20, 2004 9:52:01 GMT -5
Does someone have any kind of 3D map that shows the location of each of the subsectors, and perhaps the "cursed" and "other" subsector?
Would make it easier to start planning warp routes...
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 20, 2004 13:53:46 GMT -5
That was ZoomDog's territory, unfortunately. I don't have the kind of programs that would allow that. Well, other than just using Excel. That would be an easy way of doing things... Kage
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Post by CELS on Feb 20, 2004 14:06:44 GMT -5
It needn't be very fancy, I just need to see how the subsectors are positioned. If they form a globe around the center of the subsector, it wouldn't be appropriate to have warp routes passing straight through the center, since this might leave navigatorless ships right in the orbit of the tombworld, trying to calculate their next jump. Likewise, it would be silly for a warp route from one subsector to another to pass straight by another subsector which is in between... Erm... hard for me to explain, but... I need a map
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Post by zholud on Feb 20, 2004 15:37:03 GMT -5
It needn't be very fancy, I just need to see how the subsectors are positioned. I need a map If I understand this correctly, you have global coordinates of each system in your sector and thus can find both the bordering sectors and distance between systems. I know it isn’t fancy map, but still better than nothing.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 20, 2004 16:57:45 GMT -5
Nope, Excel doesn't do it... Kage
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Post by zholud on Feb 21, 2004 13:58:20 GMT -5
Nope, Excel doesn't do it... It depends… I’ve rolled all my dice in excel rand() function, as it is more random than any physical dice ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 21, 2004 20:09:38 GMT -5
Ah, I was talking about the 3D representation, although I must admit to only taking about a minute to look at things. Kage
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Post by zholud on Feb 22, 2004 7:21:22 GMT -5
One point: I suggest rolling random warp routes just 2-5 now, so we can see whether it is nice idea. If not, we can always dub them abnormalities and leave the idea.
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Post by CELS on Feb 22, 2004 7:26:08 GMT -5
Would you care to do the honours, Zholud? I agree that something interesting might come out of it. Not all warp routes are man-made, it seems, so I agree that a few random warp routes would be cool. What purpose they will have is up for grabs, but they would probably have some tactical value, and maybe be used by smugglers who don't want to use the Imperial warp routes, etc...
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Post by zholud on Feb 22, 2004 9:02:34 GMT -5
Would you care to do the honours, Zholud? OK. I'll think up the system of operation and start.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 22, 2004 13:20:49 GMT -5
By the sounds of it they are automatically going to be abnormalities... I'm also personally keen to avoid a system which requires reference to GW's BFG, since I seem to recall that being entirely dubious. But might be making that up. Has anyone got a decent 3D view of the sector? I've only got the one McHaggis and Zoom were playing around with - I think - and it is difficult to discern which is which... Kage
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Post by BrotherBauldry on Feb 29, 2004 20:34:18 GMT -5
I've always looked at the warp routes as ruts in the road. The more travel on a road, the deeper the rut. For the warp route, the more consistant travel, the more residue from the Astronomicon that the Navigator can follow. I hear talk of a beacon, but I'm wondering about a glowing tunnel that while dimmer, is easier to follow as it is tright beside you. As for mapping this, a piece of glass in scale to the secotors in 2d, covered in cardboard, and hit with a hammer in the centre would give a good example no? Of course it would need to be adjusted to 3(+)d.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 1, 2004 6:33:42 GMT -5
I've always looked at the warp routes as ruts in the road. The more travel on a road, the deeper the rut. Exactly my point, above. We can readily define where we want the warp routes simply as a manifestation of those routes we wish to include for trade. For the warp route, the more consistant travel, the more residue from the Astronomicon that the Navigator can follow. I would personally argue that 'stable warp pathways' are not directly related to the Astronomican and, further, they are something that makes calculated warp jumps to be safer/easier. As for mapping this, a piece of glass in scale to the secotors in 2d, covered in cardboard, and hit with a hammer in the centre would give a good example no? Of course it would need to be adjusted to 3(+)d. LOL... that would be an interesting random approach... The mapping process is going to be quite easy on the sector-scale (lines joining subsectors but avoiding the centre) and only slightly more complex on the subsector-scale... representation of these is, however, critical for this type of discussion to continue. Unfortunately, I don't have detailed graphical programs on my computer... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 29, 2004 12:15:14 GMT -5
I agree that the warp routes are more for calculated jumps than for those done by a navigator. To go with a metaphor similar to the ruts in the road, imagine warp space as a deep forest. the warp paths would be similar to paths through the forest. As more and more traffic occurs upon them, them become more worn and expanded until they eventual become the standard route of travel through the forest. To venture off of these trails would mean possible becoming lost in the forest. This is the advantage that navigators have. They could be thought of as forest rangers who can negotiate their way through the forest without need for the trails. The trails of course would still make the journey easier, but they would be able to reach places that are off the beaten path, that a calculated jump might not. Before we go any further though, I think it is important to define the warp more clearly. Without a better understanding of the medium that is being traveled through, it is next to impossible to describe accurately where warp currents will occur or why. There have been descriptions of the warp similar to a fluidic sea with currents running throughout it. but what form does this fludic space take? Is it constrained to the normal 3 dimensions that we are aware of or being perhaps a higher dimension, are their aspects of it that we can not fathom? I have always been struck by the similarity in some of the descriptions of the warp to that of the Dreaming in the White Wolf role playing game Changeling the Dreaming. Thought it has a fantasy edge to it, some of the underlying principles of the dreaming do transcend the genre. One of the things that stand out is the idea of a near dreaming and a far dreaming. The near dreaming is more similar to our own world for purposes of the interactions. It is the are most shaped by human dreamers. Similarly the "near" warp would be the area most shaped by the human or other race subconscious. It can be thought of as the shallow waters where our understanding can navigate without too much difficulty. this would be like the top of the ocean where the ships sail. the "deep" warp would be the unfathomable depths which no human mind or 3 dimensional creature could ever hope to grasp. The currents through the warp can therefore be thought to be shaped in part by the subconscious will of all living creatures. Stable warp paths are those areas traveled frequently by ships, where the subconscious of the travellers reinforces its stability. This is not to say that the minds of those in our reality are the only forces acting upon warp currents. There are things, thoughts, emotions, etc. that arrise from the deep warp and shape these currents as well (example - Eye of Terror). For more information about the Dreaming, take a look at the following link. www.geocities.com/roseandcompass/kithain/autumnanddream.html
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 29, 2004 19:04:52 GMT -5
I agree that the warp routes are more for calculated jumps than for those done by a navigator. Excellent... it just seems to make a whole lot of sense when one considers the 'fluff' on them as well as think about what they might do. As more and more traffic occurs upon them, them become more worn and expanded until they eventual become the standard route of travel through the forest. Yep, this was pretty much stated from the beginning. The determination of some of the key stable warp routes was predicated around this concept: trade would ultimately determine the presence of stable warp pathways but as to whether the trade grew up around those pathways or resulted in those pathways... well, that was the interesting 'chicken and egg' scenario. To venture off of these trails would mean possible becoming lost in the forest. I'm still fond of the aquatic imagery here... move off the route and you get subjected to unusual sub-surface features (the traditional coral reef) and strange tides and thermo-clines (the latter being more submariner, but there we go). This is the advantage that navigators have. They could be thought of as forest rangers who can negotiate their way through the forest without need for the trails. Or be, in essence, dolphins. It's not just a case of imaging the warp, since this can be done artificially, but being able to interpret that date intuitively... It can be thought of as the shallow waters where our understanding can navigate without too much difficulty. this would be like the top of the ocean where the ships sail. I actually initiated discussions on the nature of the warp and reality on Portent by discussing the Warp in terms of the Umbra of WW... Suffice to say that some interesting discussion came out of that, but there we go. Anyway, for the structure of the Warp that I personally work on (ish; it has been a while since I modified this document) then click here: The currents through the warp can therefore be thought to be shaped in part by the subconscious will of all living creatures. Stable warp paths are those areas traveled frequently by ships, where the subconscious of the travellers reinforces its stability. One must also require that as the 'shadow' of the matterium that it conforms to some broad 'warp physics'. This is where we get into energy-mass considerations... Psychic energy... mass energy... whatever. It will all have an impact. Kage
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