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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2004 5:12:28 GMT -5
One thing that has come up on discussion of the Orks and Castellan subsector is that of the Pendulum Tide, a warp phenomenon which creates 'waves' that swing in two directions: to and from the Anargo sector. This has been used by Sikkukkut to describe the 'waves' of Waaghs that have descended on Castellan. An interesting concept but one which is in search of overall integration into the concepts behind the Warp. Does anyone have any suggestions on how this could be achieved? What is the logic behind the Pendulum Tide? Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 1, 2004 11:30:12 GMT -5
How about it being something to do with a daemon?
I mean, the one that just happens to be imprisoned on an asteroid in the 'Other' sector...
The pendulum tide ebbs and flows in time with the monster's 'heartbeat', slowed as it is by the powerful wards holding it in place.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2004 12:32:45 GMT -5
Well, it would work... But I'll be honest in saying that I am not keen on the idea. Given the position of the 'wily ork empire' and Castellan it would seem fairly logical to tie it in with the concepts at the centre of the sector... ? Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 1, 2004 14:40:57 GMT -5
Personally, I feel that Sikkukkuts original explanation was good enough. It's not like we know enough about the warp to explain the phenomenon perfectly. Indeed, the warp is such a tricky place that perhaps Navigators might not even be able to explain it better. Likening this area to waves coming up to shore is perfectly in keeping with other warp=sea analogies.
As for other warp phenomenon, how about a whirlpool-thingy in the warp?
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Post by ZoomDog on Jan 1, 2004 16:11:13 GMT -5
I love this idea, but like Kage says there has to be some reason why it exists. AFAIK, there are 2 major things that affect the Warp, large amounts of mass (stars etc) and the 'emotions' of the people living in the Materium. If we consider what creates tides in the real world, the moon orbitting around the earth, we can't really copy this method across, unless there is something REALLY big orbitting the entire Sector (or sub-sector, if it's localised to that region of space). If it is orbitting though, then it would more likely create a whirlpool rather then a tide. In the other direction, we have the effect created by emotions. Perhaps when the tide goes one way, a large amount of victories are born on one particular side, thus creating a sort of 'high pressure zone' (I'm making this up as I go now, I'm a little rusty on how the Warp works ) As the attacking race gets further and further, the 'pressure' builds up. Eventually, the momentum dies out, and the 'high pressure warp' tried to even itslef back out, creating the tide that pushes back to the original area. Using this momentum the new attacking forces push back, creating a new 'high pressure warp' on the other side, and the repetition continues. It's unliekly this would work, but hopefully it gives you all some ideas, and we'll be able to work it out
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2004 17:38:19 GMT -5
I would agree that the concept if fascinating. This is too GW for me: it is the invention of a cool concept without explanation. I'm afraid I cannot allow this. I'm sure that a wonderful explanation is possible if we bring into account broader concepts, however, and make proper consideration for the balance of the 'fluff'... Likening this area to waves coming up to shore is perfectly in keeping with other warp=sea analogies. Yes that is entirely possible, though increasingly more a part of the 'norm' rather than something original. I would, however, like to suggest that this is the perfect place to start. Thank you, Zoom... Hmmn... interesting. I cannot help escape the word 'singularity', nor the possible warp implications. Perhaps despite my initial disincinlination, AF-Metallus's post might be considered? An interesting idea... Once again I shall wait until more information and concepts are forthcoming. Ideas are the lifes-blood of the ASP! And if nothing else it moderates some of the more negative arguments! Kage
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Post by Sikkukkut on Jan 1, 2004 20:02:26 GMT -5
It seems that my concepts of how the warp works are a little removed from Kage's. I'll grant you that it's possible for warp effects to be caused by the "shockwaves" from particular events, up to and including something all-pervading like the birth of Slaanesh or the Tyranids' Shadow in the Warp. Even saying something like "the upheavals in the region as heresy and civil war tore across its worlds even echoed in the Warp, with navigators claiming they found warp travel in the area choppy and difficult at the peak of the fighting" works for me. However, I find myself a little stalled by the idea that every warp phenomenon must have a direct and immediately-identifiable cause. In fact, that approach strikes me as deadening and mechanistic.
To use ocean and meteorological analogies again: we know the general sorts of things that create ocean currents or major weather patterns. I am aware, for example, that Sydney gets hit by the occasional ferocious storm, and that this happens because a big front that gets pushed out from Antarctica picks up speed from the turbulent weather below continental Australia, travels at a medium pace inland and northward (we often get a brisk breeze in Canberra about a day or two before the big storms), gets fed by the weather patterns in the Dividing Range where the valleys funnel air into the front like accelerator thrusters, then hits the moist air over Sydney and BAM! Householders wonder where the power went and the roofing repair guy wonders whether to buy a beach house or a new 4WD.
The point behind all this is that the warp, to me, is such a vast, volatile, intricate, entropic thing, to which many fundamental laws as we understand them don't even apply, that insisting that everything that happens in it be immediately traceable to something nearby ("This tide is because of that star. That ripple is because of this battle" ) just seems like a non-starter. It's like hearing the thumbnail of weather patterns above and saying "yes, that's all very well, but why did the front come out of Antarctica? Why is there moist air over Sydney? Why are the valleys in the Dividing Range and the Blue Mountains arranged in such a way as to funnel and amplify it?"
"Well, we're dealing here with a bewildering number of variables that have built up and influenced one another over such an immense period of time that--"
"No, there has to be something that causes it."
"Well, the point is that there are a myriad of causes; this is the product of an incredibly complex system. Just in the atmosphere alone we're talking about a layer of swirling, ebbing, flowing gas that's affected by--"
"Yes, but there has to be a single thing that you can point to that causes these storms. So come on, what is it?"
If I seem like I'm protesting too much over one little phenomenon, well, the picture of the warp as something so vast, volatile and mercurial as to make the whole "butterfly in the Amazon" thing look about as subtle as a kindergartener knocking his building-blocks over is pretty central to my reading of the 40Kverse. (Kage or some of the others who were in on the initial mapping thread might remember that I wanted to build some data about dominant warp phenomena into the fundamental structure of the sector, before we even had subsectors or planets mapped.) I'm not saying we should abandon the whole subject apart from the occasional whisper of "it's aaaaallll a mystery", but if we can't have a little entropy and complexity in the warp, then where can we have it?
Just so I don't arrive on this thread on a completely unproductive note, my original idea when I started thinking about the Pendulum Tide was that while it was known by that name in the Anargo Sector, the Navis Nobilite are known to call it such names as "Whiptail" and "Ullaku's Snake". In fact, the Tide is just one segment of a long streamer of warpstuff, undulating like a writhing snake. I tend to imagine its "headwaters" as almost outside the galactic disk; towards its lower reached its oscillations become faster and stronger and kick up rips and storms of a lethal intensity, like smaller tropical storms spinning off from a cyclone cell. Don't know if that appeals to anyone.
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Post by zholud on Jan 2, 2004 1:52:58 GMT -5
I like the idea of tide but dislike to true description of it as the stream. The actual tidal powers generated but something that actually moves in the warp on more or less (it is Chaotic realm after all!!) stable route is much better. Most likely no one knows what is it, but the should clearly be some hypotheses, some even wrong, but they add to fluff anyway.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 2, 2004 3:44:40 GMT -5
It seems that my concepts of how the warp works are a little removed from Kage's. That is in part why I feel that the Pendulum Tide, as well as other aspects of the warp, should be at least explained an integral framework rather than working to the Rule of Imagery. However, I find myself a little stalled by the idea that every warp phenomenon must have a direct and immediately-identifiable cause. In fact, that approach strikes me as deadening and mechanistic. I've heard this levvied against it and I fundamentally disagree. The Rule of Imagery is one of the single and most damning problem with all of GW game 'fluff'. Integrating into a consistent framework allows for foundation to creative work rather than preventing it, as is often argued... ...Indeed, I was watching the Great Escape the other day and marvelled at the ingenuity and creativity of these people. A part of this was the obvious constraints imposed upon them... Thus with this. The 'constraints' are there to stimulate creativity and act as a basis from which subsequent interpretation and integration can take place. Rather than coming up with a cool concept and then leaving it at that, it behooves the creator to look at the rest of the universe and go "Hmmn... what if...?" The point behind all this is that the warp, to me, is such a vast, volatile, intricate, entropic thing, to which many fundamental laws as we understand them don't even apply, that insisting that everything that happens in it be immediately traceable to something nearby... That is not what I'm saying, just that there should be an interpretative framework. Nearly every bit of GW 'fluff' that I have read has suffered because of the Rule of Imagery. It's like hearing the thumbnail of weather patterns above and saying "yes, that's all very well, but why did the front come out of Antarctica? Why is there moist air over Sydney? Why are the valleys in the Dividing Range and the Blue Mountains arranged in such a way as to funnel and amplify it?" On a personal note I do ask those questions when I'm intrigued. But, then again, I've always been of the scientific bent. If one were to continue with the 'framework' analogy, then acknowledge of the impact of the weather systems over Antarctic, the funnelling effect of the valley... and so on... is a part of that. We know that these things have an effect even if we cannot fully understand everything. That is the framework... Furthermore, the inquisitive and creative mind might begin to wonder at the potentials behind those weather systems. What does create them? Is it purely a result of solar energy or is it anthropogenic (i.e. ozone layer depletion; though this is actually both natural and anthropogenic)? To use another film analogy, the difference is akin to Dogma's point about 'believing' and 'having an idea'... I'm not saying we should abandon the whole subject apart from the occasional whisper of "it's aaaaallll a mystery", but if we can't have a little entropy and complexity in the warp, then where can we have it? I'm interested in concepts, not specifics. Just so I don't arrive on this thread on a completely unproductive note, my original idea when I started thinking about the Pendulum Tide was that while it was known by that name in the Anargo Sector, the Navis Nobilite are known to call it such names as "Whiptail" and "Ullaku's Snake". Now that is an interesting concept, yet I would still ask what overall might create such a phenomenon. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 3, 2004 17:25:25 GMT -5
Parden- what is the Rule of Imagery?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 3, 2004 20:04:55 GMT -5
Parden- what is the Rule of Imagery? My first response is to say 'read the above'... But since I'm feeling all fluffy... The "Rule of Imagery" is, in essence, that the aesthetics and 'coolness factor' are paramount regardless of the contradictions to established 'fluff' or, indeed, the general idea of the 40k universe. Examples of the Rule of Imagery exist in, for example, the artwork: consider the Marines that are shown firing their bolters and with cases being ejecting from said bolter? It's against the 'fluff' but conforms to the Rule of Imagery. In the same way the Rule of Imagery suggests that it is easier to create someting 'cool' then it is to create something consistent. I love the Rule of Imagery but I love consistency just as much. The Pendulum Tide as it exists conforms to the Rule of Imagery: there is no real basis other than saying "there is no real basis to the warp". I dislike that level of circularity. I love concepts, thus that is what I'm asking for (i.e. what causes etc. the Pendulum Tide) rather than specifics... 2x10^10 Mj of energy transfer from planet x to planet y... blah blah. Methinks that is stated clear enough... ;D Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 10, 2004 0:16:10 GMT -5
Parden my late reply. Granted, we only have 5-10 active members, but I still can't keep track of all the threads! I guess that's a good sign.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation. Here's my suggestion;
On Portent, there's some of talk about orks and warp travel these days. Many have suggested that the collective psychic powers of the orks are in no small part responsible for carrying the orks to their desired location. Supposedly, when a waaagh! starts, all the aggression, anger, joy and adrenaline from the orks builds up and creates a force or warp current that aids the orks in navigating the warp. The psychic build-up of the waaagh! simply pulls all the ork ships in the same direction, more or less. Well, there has been a war between orks and men in the Castellan subsector for millennia now, and the orks have flooded towards the sector in countless Waaagh!s, and has been driven back countless times. Perhaps this flow of things have permanently changed the local currents of the warp. It's like sitting in your bathtub, and starting to move your body back and forth. The water goes from one side to the other, and keeps on going back and forth even when you stop moving.
If not this, then how about looking at temperatures for inspiration. Like a lavalamp. You've got one part that's really hot, with the light bulb (which would be the ork empire), and you've got one part that's naturally cold (which would be the human worlds). The wax is heated (orks start preparing for waaagh! and get their collective psychic powers flowing), drifts up (the orks swarm through the warp), is cooled down (the orks get bitch-slapped), and drifts back down. Of course, this doesn't explain why the waves keep 'swinging' back and forth, even when there's no waaagh. Suggestions?
That's really all I can think of. If no one can come up with a good enough suggestion, I suggest that we just go with the 'beach' explanation, which I never had a problem with in the first place.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 10, 2004 19:40:06 GMT -5
Funny, I cannot remember the analogy of the beach before. Combined with the 'ork wave' approach to warp navigation... Now that is a structured concept which makes sense. What is the 'beach' upon which they break? I know the obvious answer is the Castellan subsector but that is not really an answer... I presume the suggestion is that they 'break' upon the 'power' created by the stalwart beliefs and defences of the subsector? Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 10, 2004 19:59:09 GMT -5
Something like that, yeah. Also, Orks tend to be drawn to where the fighting's at.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 10, 2004 21:08:15 GMT -5
Now there's a circular argument/situation: the orks are drawn to the areas that they create! Any ideas on the nature of the 'breaker'? Kage
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