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Post by Destecado on Aug 18, 2004 10:30:53 GMT -5
I apologize if any of my above comments were taken as being overly critical or harsh. If you wish will indeed provide a more elaborate description behind the proposed drive systems.
The only reason that I include brief summaries with link is that it is rather frustrating to spend the time writing up an entire concept only to have it summarily pushed aside. I find it easier to present the basic idea with coroborating source material and then if there is interest in the concept go into further detail.
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Post by Philip on Aug 18, 2004 11:42:31 GMT -5
I'm Anyway if a better name was given and some of the 'sell' was changed, "bubble tech" - and, yes, it really does need a new name - could be extremely useful. I could change Bubble tech to 'phase field theory' as in the 'Phasing of this dimension towards another'? I was saving the term phase field for my hatchet job on the Eldar, but hey. However, and this is a big one, it must not be over-used. That, I feel, is one of the biggest problems with the idea that is being presented... The fact that it has been forwarded as the solution to power fields, warp drive, sublight drive, robot technologies, and so forth, are all examples of this over-use. Not that it is entirely inappropriate since it would be like saying that metallurgy is over-used in the 40k universe! I agree, I think the Adeptus Mechanicus would keep very tight reign on any system based on 'Phase field theory'. However, I think it can be used for many systems that are 'fantastical' as the conservation of energy goes out of the window along with everything else... Rather than advocating this as 'magical physics' when physics and magic already exist (and the 'high tech that we don't know how it works') and given the original premise, 'bubble tech' as originally described would be far more interesting as the first stumbling blocks to blended technology and magic: technomancy. This is sort of the idea I'm going for, but I'm also thinking a tying the 'bubble tech/ phase field theory' as a possible first steps of the Necrons technology too! This would place 'bubble tech/ phase field theory' as a scientific 'cross roads' in the grand scheme of things (Tzeentch would be pleased:)). It does however open up the idea that there may be another 'reality' that is exclusive to the C'tan, and that 'bubble tech/ phase field theory' is taking from both the warp and this new reality?
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 18, 2004 11:42:47 GMT -5
Fairy snuff... Remember that my interest in the ASP other than purely 'fluff' is in RPG. I find it frustrating to see posts outlining oodles of ideas without any form of abstraction. In this case, however, a reasonable explanation for "reactionless thrusters" as described above would be welcome or, indeed, which was predicated upon another 'vector restriction' (i.e. loss of efficiency in a given direction and one that is reasonably easy to calculate). I guess what I ultimately wanted was some discussion and, since this is the Factory and not General Chat, someone to post what they would use to represent it in game terms. Preferably a game that allows 'construction' and not just where someone puts "Moves 6cm" or "Moves 6 squares" or whatever... I want to build ships and equipment, in other words. Going back to the Imperium 'plasma drives', for example, the obvious answer is for 'fusion drives'. Only problem is that the examples I have utilise water, which is horrendously heavy and volume-hogging. This means that the accelerations that they would be capable of generating are horrendously poor (and meaning that it would take ages to get to a Warp zone... years and years!). Thus a part of this thread is after solutions, and not just 'theory' but application. Numbers, basically.
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Post by Philip on Aug 18, 2004 12:04:21 GMT -5
Well, In overall terms, fusion (plasma) engines provide the initial power to 'boot' the systems and keep them running.
The various fields could be used to enhance the performances of various drive systems? In game terms it may make the engine 'twice as efficient' or up to millions of times more efficient (and kicking massive spaceships of the Imperium around the galaxy at sub-light is going to need unbelievably powerful engines). Basically phase field theory allows you to muck about with the numbers, and you can restrict how much 'boost' an engine gets based on allowed tech level.
Lets say you slap a 'field' on an ion engine, and this field acts to enhance the electric attraction on the engine mesh but on the exhaust side it changes effect and acts to repulse the ions. It would vastly improve the engine output, and would be a 'level one field' or an enhancement to an existing system.
Higher levels allow different fields to interact and more fields to work together.
Admittedly, the engine I put forward is highly efficient with its total conversion field, and is probably pumping out far more energy than is being put in (even though total matter brake down would release a lot of energy).
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Post by Dazo on Aug 18, 2004 22:37:13 GMT -5
Ah yes phased plasma drive, a good solution, it is a more efficient form of propulsion than direct plasma thrust. Its like the gears in a car, they allow it to go faster than if the wheels were simply connected straight to the engine.
I will point out however this is the system used in federation starships, a warp field is used to speed up the plasma coming out of the impulse engines
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Post by Philip on Aug 18, 2004 23:52:36 GMT -5
Ah yes I will point out however this is the system used in federation starships, a warp field is used to speed up the plasma coming out of the impulse engines Star Trek! Just for that I'm going to emphasise the 'total conversion field' bit of the engine, and slap on a new field to accelerate the recombined particles in parallel so they shoot out the back in a straight line. That gives this engine a total of three fields, which beats Star Trek one! Conversion field=Sphere Accelerator field=Torus (running around the sphere) Deflector field=Dish (on the ship, between the ship and the two other fields) Why a torus? Well I figure is I painted it, it would give the engine exhaust a nice curved shape. ;D
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Post by Dazo on Aug 19, 2004 0:18:11 GMT -5
Well there's no need to go over board, I was mearly pointing out the similarities, as long as you call it phased plasma drive i'm happy with it. Indeed I suspected the imperium would use this type of technology, its the only feasable explanation for the speeds at which imperial starships travel. I think it would be more fuel efficent than direct fusion tap drive, which is something kage objects to due to the masses of fuel required.
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Post by Philip on Aug 19, 2004 1:27:27 GMT -5
Well there's no need to go over board, I was mearly pointing out the similarities, as long as you call it phased plasma drive i'm happy with it. Just playing. Phased plasma drive? Sounds fun, mind you this could be yet another type of engine that uses phased field theory? I think the engine I described is a 'Total Conversion Drive' powered up by a plasma (fusion) reactor. Also I think the plasma in the reactor is contained by 'phase based' fields too, rather than magnetic fields (I figure the 'phase based' fields could be used to 'crush' the plasma, to increase fusion and that the energy is routed via conversion fields.) Indeed I suspected the imperium would use this type of technology, its the only feasable explanation for the speeds at which imperial starships travel. I think it would be more fuel efficent than direct fusion tap drive, which is something kage objects to due to the masses of fuel required. I agree. The energy released from a total conversion drive would be astronomical. Considering nuclear weapons convert a tiny amount of matter to energy, the resultant explosion from converting all the material to energy would be getting on into 'crust buster' territory. As an engine it would be pushing out huge amounts of thrust, the only thing that could contain or redirect that amount of energy would be 'fields'. I think this type of engine would make heavy use of 'fields'. (much in the same way that Plasma is contained by magnets in fusion reactors) >As Star Trek has come up, I always wondered why they didn't build all of their systems in 'holo-decks' as in many episodes holo-deck machines work like real machines. I'm not saying we should have holo-decks in 40K, I'm say that I like continuity, and if the technology exists it would be used for other things.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 19, 2004 4:09:39 GMT -5
Okay, but this now gets into a rather interesting point. Do we look at the information provided by the 'fluff' and go "Well, that's not possible based upon what we understand of the 'fluff' and, after all, rigorous and consistent 'fluff' is not what GW are trying to create"...?
Or do we invent complex new technologies because of this short-falling in GW?
Or do we append the 'game rules' such that they utilise a standard system of motivation but with completely pie-in-the-sky mechanics? (E.g. Instead of water we use hydrogen to drop down the mass of the vessel thereby increasing fuel efficiency, and then create a horrible mechanic which states that fuel efficieny increases as one decreases maximum thrust such that 1 G-Hour at 1G becomes 10 G-Hours at 0.1G, etc...?)
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 19, 2004 6:17:11 GMT -5
For me personally, I think we're stuck with "plasma" being used in the engines somehow from all the BFG references to it. I usually privilege fluff in the rulebook and codices over WD, and WD over the BL novels, whose canonicity is suspect in my mind (and to be blunt, I don't have time to read every single BL book, and they just lead to more contradictions).
However, so long as we're talking Star Trek, to my mind one of the more clever things they did was come up with a power distribution system that sort of made sense - plasma "manifolds" that redirect plasma from the engine systems to subsystems throughout the ship.
The fluff also mentions plasma as a power source. Thus, the plasma engines may be like alternators/generators, converting the raw energy of the main engine into a usable and distributable power source. This means you could have nine plasma reactors, as mentioned in BFG big book wrt a cruiser, without being stuck with fusion power or fusion propulsion.
My problem with plasma propulsion is that the plasma is still going no faster than ~c, no matter what "fields" you use on it, unless you can accelerate mass past lightspeed with the field, in which case why not accelerate the whole ship/missiles/weapons fire/communications signals/etc.
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Post by Philip on Aug 19, 2004 7:25:29 GMT -5
For me personally, I think we're stuck with "plasma" being used in the engines somehow from all the BFG references to it. I usually privilege fluff in the rulebook and codices over WD, and WD over the BL novels, whose canonicity is suspect in my mind (and to be blunt, I don't have time to read every single BL book, and they just lead to more contradictions). The 'TCD' is powered by a plasma reactor so that ties in with the fluff. However, so long as we're talking Star Trek, to my mind one of the more clever things they did was come up with a power distribution system that sort of made sense - plasma "manifolds" that redirect plasma from the engine systems to subsystems throughout the ship. Good point, in 40K they shift plasma with big armoured/ shielded cables so this would tie in too. The fluff also mentions plasma as a power source. Thus, the plasma engines may be like alternators/generators, converting the raw energy of the main engine into a usable and distributable power source. This means you could have nine plasma reactors, as mentioned in BFG big book wrt a cruiser, without being stuck with fusion power or fusion propulsion. I always figure that plasma reactors in 40K were fusion reactors. How is the plasma used in Star Trek? My problem with plasma propulsion is that the plasma is still going no faster than ~c, no matter what "fields" you use on it, unless you can accelerate mass past lightspeed with the field, in which case why not accelerate the whole ship/missiles/weapons fire/communications signals/etc. In my 'TCD' to only way to accelerate matter up to light speed (or faster) is to run it though a conversion field and totally convert it to energy ( a type of energy that only exists inside a conversion field). This would destroy the ship in the process, however the atoms that made up the ship will be going very fast indeed! I see the plasma reactors powering the fields, and the fields do all the real work. I think the Adaptus Machanicus would censor all talk of conversion fields, but that links to my other concepts. As for fuel for propulsion (the stuff you chuck into the conversion filed) any matter will do. You could have water, or hydrogen, or finely ground garbage and shredded top secret reports! In really doesn't matter, but maybe some matter converts better than others?
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 19, 2004 8:02:38 GMT -5
Again I'm going to say a big "no" to 'bubble theory' in application to Imperium sublight drives. It is, for me, just not 'fun'. No other way of describing it at the moment.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 19, 2004 8:51:22 GMT -5
For me personally, I think we're stuck with "plasma" being used in the engines somehow from all the BFG references to it. However, so long as we're talking Star Trek, to my mind one of the more clever things they did was come up with a power distribution system that sort of made sense - plasma "manifolds" that redirect plasma from the engine systems to subsystems throughout the ship. Plasma Electronic have existed since the 1920s, so this is not that far a step to take. Fluorescent lights and plasma flat panel televisions are just two examples. Of course you would need to enlarge these by several magnitudes to carry the necessary charges to weapons and other systems. Of course we would have to determine how the gas became super heated. It could be by having the electrical current passed through it or it might be superheat by passing through a heat exchange system where it picks up heat from the reactors and then is ionized in order to carry a charge. Perhaps the electrical energy is transfered to substations throughout the ship where it is then relayed by wires to the individual systems. the substations serve a similar purpose to a buss box, where they convert the incoming electrical energy from the power lines, to enrrgy useable through household outlets and lights. My problem with plasma propulsion is that the plasma is still going no faster than ~c, no matter what "fields" you use on it, unless you can accelerate mass past lightspeed with the field, in which case why not accelerate the whole ship/missiles/weapons fire/communications signals/etc. How fast are we trying to make the ship go? If we use plasm propulsion, money is still on the magnetoplasma dynamic thruster. One of the great things about it is that it can operate on several different fuel sources. Possible non-oxidizing propellants such as ammonia (NH3), hydrazine (N2H4), methane (CH4), hydrogen (H2), nitrogen (N2) and the noble gases (Ar, Ne, Xe)This gives for a great variety of fuels that ma be used and make perhaps having smaller craft that can skim gas giants for refuling plausible. Current models can provide thrust of 20 to 200 Newtons. Newton=the force required to impart an acceleration of one meter per second per second to a mass of one kilogram Based on the size of the thrusters modeled on most Imperial ships, this thrust value would be substantially higher. Another thing occured to me when looking at the modeles of BFG ships, do Imperial ships actually go through a roll over proceedure to decelerate?
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Post by Philip on Aug 20, 2004 0:03:54 GMT -5
Again I'm going to say a big "no" to 'bubble theory' in application to Imperium sublight drives. It is, for me, just not 'fun'. No other way of describing it at the moment. Care to elaborate? The TCD is now Adaptus Machanicus only and appears in warships. I've started a new thread to cover how the TCD fits in and you can find it hereAnother thing occured to me when looking at the modeles of BFG ships, do Imperial ships actually go through a roll over proceedure to decelerate? Good point, as it would mean many warship would have to go into combat backwards if it had to slow down. Perhaps we could use your ideas in your thread on zero point energy? Perhaps the conversion field can power another field to manipulate the density of the zero point field around an object. The engines are bright because of the total conversion field, not because of propulsion exhaust? Were as the Eldar could do the same thing by channelling warp power/effects. In 40K 'zero point energy' could be were the warp 'touches' our universe?
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 20, 2004 12:18:46 GMT -5
Current models can provide thrust of 20 to 200 Newtons. Newton=the force required to impart an acceleration of one meter per second per second to a mass of one kilogram Based on the size of the thrusters modeled on most Imperial ships, this thrust value would be substantially higher. This might be of some use, from the electronic version of GURPS Vehicles that I have (probably outdated, but my hard-copy is elsewhere at the moment). TL | Type | Weight | Fuel Useage | Power | 6 | Liquid Fuel Rocket | 0.015*thrust | 1.5R | 0 | 7 | Liquid Fuel Rocket | 0.012*thrust | 1.25R | 0 | 8+ | Liquid Fuel Rocket | 0.01*thrust | 1.1R | 0 | 8+ | MOX Rocket | 0.025*thrust | 1.08MOX | 0 | 7 | Ion Drive | (1,000*thrust)+5 | 0.0017C | 650 | 8+ | Ion Drive | (200*thrust)+5 | 0.0017C | 650 | 7 | Fission Rocket | (0.325*thrust)+4,000 | 0.5W | 0 | 8+ | Fission Rocket | (0.15*thrust)+1,000 | 0.1W | 0 | 9 | Fusion Rocket | (0.025*thrust)+50 | 0.02W | 0 | 9 | Optimised Fusion | (3,000*thrust)+20,000 | 0.004H | 0 | 10+ | Fusion Rocket | (0.025*thrust)+25 | 0.02W | 0 | 10+ | Optimised Fusion | (300*thrust)+2,000 | 0.004H | 0 | 9 | Antimatter Thermal | (0.02*thrust)+1,000 | 0.05W/AM | 0 | 10+ | Antimatter Thermal | (0.02*thrust)+1,000 | 0.05W/AM | 0 | 10 | Antimatter Pion | (1,000*thrust)+20,000 | M/AM | 0 | 10+ | Antimatter Pion | 200*thrust)+400 | M/AM | |
Unfortunately this copy does not include things like the Total Conversion drive, etc., but should do for discussion in general of sublight drives. Measurements are, unfortunately, in the Imperial system (pounds, cubic feet) though power is in 'kilowatts' (kw). The mass of the above drives is 1/ 50th the mass. Cost is $100 times the weight unless it's a liquid fuel rocket, in which case it is $25. Fuel: R=rocket fuel, W=water, H=hydrogen, MOX=metal/liquid oxygen, C=cadmium, AM=antimatter (antimatter thermal consume 0.000004 g per pound per hour of thrust), and M/AM=matter/antimatter (pion rockets consume 0.04g/lb and 0.00015 gallons of H per hour per pound of thrust). Another thing occured to me when looking at the modeles of BFG ships, do Imperial ships actually go through a roll over proceedure to decelerate? Would make sense...
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