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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 6, 2004 6:50:52 GMT -5
A good and reasonable point... the only problem is that the mass, volume and energy considerations of truly redundant systems becomes problematic when you're talking about something the size of personal battle armour. For those components that are small enough to make little difference then, well, they make little difference in the long run. It's the important items that take up the space... Kage
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Post by Farseer Kythil on Jan 6, 2004 6:59:41 GMT -5
Well one of the main redundant systems that would be included would be secondary power conduits to avoid system failures. and possibly spare electronics for targeting or motion compensation.
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Post by CELS on Jan 6, 2004 14:14:15 GMT -5
If you note, the armour has a PEMS (Passive Electromagnetic Sensor) integrated into it. This gives them detailed vision to something in the realms of 3km as well as vision across the electromagnetic spectrum. This also includes variable frequency audio... How does an electromagnetic sensor give them enhanced vision and audio? That's an incredibly simple sound distortion programme which could be incorporated into the suit computer. It's not really something that is going to figure into the design sequence necessarily, although it is a good point. I agree about the sound distortion, but I was trying to point out that you had forgot the external speaker which is supposedly located on the mouth-piece of the helmet. Automatically comes with the suit... and, arguably, the Marine himself. After all is that not one of the stated purposes of the Third Lung? If it comes with the suit, wouldn't it be a good idea to include such systems on your list? As for the third lung, I don't think they would effectively filter any tainted atmosphere over a long period of time. Maybe for a few hours or days, depending on the level of taint. Well, the searchlights are relatively pointless. The only other major difference seems to be the 'motion sensor', akin to a micro-radar system, or possibly ultrasound... Oh yeah, right. The searchlights look cool though A few quotes from C: Angels of Death, on Space Marine Power Armour. "On its own a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs" "In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy damper which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being" "The back pack also contains all the extra equipment needed to maintain life-support, air recycling, fluid recovery, and the various automatic medical functions." "The suit's helmet is fitted with automatic sensory devices which allow the wearer to see and hear quite normally, but he can also see infra-red and ultra-violet light, and hear a wider range of sound frequencies. The wearer is also able to selectively enhance a visual image or sound should he wish. "
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 6, 2004 15:56:41 GMT -5
According to the 3rd ed rulebook, at least, the Stormbolter has a self-repair system incorporated, although this might just be an automated jam-clearing system or something similar.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 6, 2004 19:28:22 GMT -5
How does an electromagnetic sensor give them enhanced vision and audio? They are covered under the basic description of the sensor in GURPS. I must admit to doing the same thing here as I've often pointed out that 40k has done, i.e. not including all of the information. To be fair, however, I really couldn't be bothered to type out all of the individual meanings... I agree about the sound distortion, but I was trying to point out that you had forgot the external speaker which is supposedly located on the mouth-piece of the helmet. This is just such a minor thing that it really isn't worth including on the listing. For me it would be like including 'knee guard' as separate from the leg armour itself. It doesn't significantly impact on the way it works... If it comes with the suit, wouldn't it be a good idea to include such systems on your list? As for the third lung, I don't think they would effectively filter any tainted atmosphere over a long period of time. Maybe for a few hours or days, depending on the level of taint. As with the speaker and the PEMS, there is really no need to list this since it is assumed as part of the 'life support system'. Oh yeah, right. The searchlights look cool though Yep. The Rule of Imagery once again! "On its own a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs" This is true. On it's own a suit of Marine power armour constructed using the GURPS Mecha system says that it should weigh in the realm of 1,200 lbs. Simple mathematics reveals that this is the case... Ah... why does it weigh significantly more than 250lbs? Most of that weight is caught up between the battlesuit system (the thing that makes it work; all the servomotors), the leg drivetrain and the armour which are, respectively, 360lbs, 165lbs and 266lbs. Other reasonable chunks of mass (~30-60lbs) are taken up in such systems as provisions, the power plant, extra air, and some basic sealth (including IR stealth) technologies. Edit - An obvious problem is that if you reduce the weight of the thing using CG systems, then the motive systems become that much more powerful. The 10kw drivetrain (giving the Marines there ability to run at super-fast speeds, if one remembers that the fastest human runs at - what? - 20mph or so?) will suddenly allow them to outpace normal non-performance ground vehicles... Of course, the way that GW are often describing PA is that it is just modified carapace with some power systems to compensate for the weight (which if you believe the suspensor argument is alredy compensated for)... Again, the lack of a clear and consistent vision. "In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy damper which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being" That is why I used the caveat of 'old version' in the first post. Subsequent discussion made me realise that not only would this make a whole lot of sense (reducing the pressure and therefore stress to load-bearing structures for urban combat) but it was also mentioned in the 'fluff'... The only problem is that this technically requires advanced (TL12) systems, but it's reasonable enough to say that they're TL10... (Contra-grav systems). But that is going to significant up the cost and mass of the system... "The back pack also contains all the extra equipment needed to maintain life-support, air recycling, fluid recovery, and the various automatic medical functions." Yep, that's where the majority of the life support systems are included. Only the backup batteries are really located in the main body for rather obvious reasons. "The suit's helmet is fitted with automatic sensory devices which allow the wearer to see and hear quite normally, but he can also see infra-red and ultra-violet light, and hear a wider range of sound frequencies. The wearer is also able to selectively enhance a visual image or sound should he wish. " All of which are currently included. But many thanks for those posts. It's interesting to see where reality - or at least internal consistency - is at a variance to to the 'fluff'. To get the weight down to 250lbs Marine armour would have to be around TL15 which is self-evidently not the case... (And then it would be constructed mostly of power fields!) Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 10, 2004 1:38:18 GMT -5
Well, it seems I misunderstood your intentions when writing the list. As for the weight-thing, I don't think that either 250 lbs or 1200 lbs sounds about right, and I must say that I was shocked to read about the grav-tech used on Power armour. In my mind, Power armour weighs something in between those two numbers, and is quite thin compared to what most people believe. If power armour is very thick, it'll obviously restrict the freedom of movement for the wearer. Besides, if you look at the artwork for Space Marines, I think it's pretty obvious that the armour isn't that thick, unless the shape and physique of Space Marines is changed considerably during their initiation. The breadth of their shoulders and hips, for example, would look almost ridiculous.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 10, 2004 9:47:58 GMT -5
Published schematics seem to show that the armour is proportionately quite 'thick' compared to the other dimensions. Of course, the artwork obviously has limitations in terms of precise interpretation... Are you suggesting that the armour is less effective when you refer to 'thickness'? Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 13, 2004 19:43:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. I actually asked Adrian Smith about this, and he basically said that he didn't worry much about these things when drawing power armour. Apparently, if power armour was as thick as GW suggested, the Space Marines would have an entirely different physique from normal people.
What I'm suggesting is that if power armour really would look as the artists have shown it in artwork, and writers in fiction, then it's quite unreasonable to think that the greaves are three inches thick, for example. They would have to be closer to StarWars stormtrooper-armour thickness, actually, but not quite that thin. This would also avoid the weight-issue. Obviously, the suit of armour would weigh more than 250 pounds, as GW has stated, but I find it totally unbelievable that each suit has anti-grav units built-in, or that it would weigh as much as you suggested, Kage (1200 lbs, was it?).
Imagine Space Marines, who each weigh as much as a small car, fighting inside buildings. If two of them stood too close, they'd fall straight through the frickin floor. They'd also be totally useless in bogs or marshes, or swamp-lands or lands with lots of snow.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 14, 2004 4:10:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. I actually asked Adrian Smith about this, and he basically said that he didn't worry much about these things when drawing power armour. Shame that the pictures are rather pretty and that is what tends to stick in people minds... Kind of analagous to the 'fluff' itself in that regard. Reminds me of the cyberpunk essence: Style over Substance. Obviously, the suit of armour would weigh more than 250 pounds, as GW has stated, but I find it totally unbelievable that each suit has anti-grav units built-in, or that it would weigh as much as you suggested, Kage (1200 lbs, was it?). Again, note that the above doesn't take into account any 'weight reduction' effect through 'anti-grav' technology. With regards to the calculated weight, based upon the size of a 300lb pilot and using non-40k guidelines, 1,200lbs - or around 540kg - is just the figure that GURPS Mecha comes up with. To reduce this then one would have to reduce the protection of the armour (making it more vulnerable to lasweapons and bolters) and, just as importantly, reduce the size of the pilot. In other words, gone is the 6'5" hulking monstrosity of a pilot with greater bone mass, reinforced skeleton, extra muscle mass, etc. In the system used to model it, which admittedly makes different assumptions but arguably more plausible assumptions. If one were to guestimate the thickness of the material thus represented, you would only likely be dealing with a few centimeters, not the inches represented in the artwork and the related 'fluff'. Imagine Space Marines, who each weigh as much as a small car, fighting inside buildings. If two of them stood too close, they'd fall straight through the frickin floor. They'd also be totally useless in bogs or marshes, or swamp-lands or lands with lots of snow. If you read the original thread - which I really wouldn't expect you to do - you will find that I'm fully aware of this feature. Indeed, that was the original purpose of the design (amongst other things): to create PA in a detailed RPG system and then go, "Look what you get". It was designed to get people to think about just these issues... What about mass-effect and urban combat? Given the hulking size of these things, is not a perfect defence just to make the darned corridors and doors too small for them... That type of thing. So, it's not just a case of implausible weight, but implausible starting images and assumptions. Kage
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Post by Philip on Oct 3, 2004 18:44:46 GMT -5
Quick note: Power armour uses ‘neuro-fibre bundles’ not motors. For normal Power Armour the NFB offset the weight of the armour only, so a person isn’t any stronger, just the same strength they ever were.
Space Marine power armour has extra NFBs, so it increases strength, but you then need the black carapace to maintain control.
As a quick bit of revisionism, I see Power armour coming in two layers, a soft inner suit containing the neuro-fibre bundles and covered in NFB anchors, and a hard exoskeleton outer. The inner suit’s anchors are locked onto the outer suits exoskeleton, so the NFB have leverage. The armour plates a part of the exoskeleton but can be unlocked and changed relatively quickly as the exoskeleton has no wires or links.
When not locked into a suit, the inner suit is just ‘loose NFBs in a light armour sandwich’. It is the Inner suit that bonds to the black carapace, and houses all of the advanced technologically gubbins.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 4, 2004 9:18:53 GMT -5
Ooh... just love those circular arguments. Of course, that doesn't change a thing. And any suggestion that it is the Marine that is the main component for 'strength' is just going to be laughed at. Inquisitor is bunk on this regard... Ultimately makes no difference except to 'colour text'. There really is no purpose to PA of this type, when it comes down to it, given the existence of carapace armour. Well, other than questions of 'endurance', but that's only really going to be minor... Incomplete argument working off the premise that Marine armour requires the black carapace, ergo the black carapace must be required for strength augmentation. Circular argument, ultimately. Not that much revisionism... although I disagree, of course. First off, it doesn't fit with the original artwork (though artwork is the worst source of 'fluff') and secondly it really isn't required. Ultimately the division is for divisions-sake alone... it doesn't actually do anything.
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Post by Philip on Oct 4, 2004 11:49:48 GMT -5
Ultimately makes no difference except to 'colour text'. Make a huge difference on how you model it. Motors can’t really be pushed (design flaw in regard to PA) and require lots of power for a given torque. It is why I disagree with your view that any ‘normal person’ dropped into a suit of power armour is going to be as strong as a Marine. Using NFBs is a fundamentally different design ethos to motors. They are more like artificial muscle layer designed to offset the armour’s weight, not only are they more efficient space wise (given the human form), strength wise, speed wise and power drain wise than motors, they are also very cool (literally). I’ll change that given half a chance ;D Just giving you I heads up on my thoughts...
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 5, 2004 7:46:17 GMT -5
Make a huge difference on how you model it. Only if you're going to make certain limited assumptions first... Motors can’t really be pushed (design flaw in regard to PA) and require lots of power for a given torque. Again, you're simply viewing PA as an iddy-biddy little lever, one that magnifies strength in minor quantities. (Compare rather unfavourably with the horrendous rules in Inquisitor.) Note also that 'servomotors' as well as artificial muscles are utilised in the 'fluff' with regards to Marine power. You will note, however, that the servomotors are mentioned primarily when a Marine is pushing his armour to the fullest extent and they begin to 'whine'. It is why I disagree with your view that any ‘normal person’ dropped into a suit of power armour is going to be as strong as a Marine. And, as elsewhere, I predicate this upon a rather limited view of both Marines and power armour in general... That is to say it is predicated upon the concept that Marines are the 'strongest' and, therefore, within PA they must still be the strongest. This viewpoint finds support in Inquisitor where there is no real point for a non-Marine to wear PA. In gross number format: Inquisitor has a human of strength 'a' having strength '1.2a' in PA, while a Marine with Strength 4a has strength 4.8a (or ~5a) in PA. Me? Human has strength 'a' and a Marine strength '1.6a' out of armour (Marine strength really should be modified and, pehaps, another look at PA but the premise still remains). Marine in PA has 5a, but so does normal human. Why? Because it is 'powered' armour. So what's the difference? Your assumption is that the 'harder you push' in PA the harder the PA pushes. This is, of course, how PA is normally represented. Your assumption seems to be, however, that the magnitude of PA 'push' is directly - and totally - related to the magnitude of push given by the wearer of the PA itself. I find this approach... erroneous. Simply put the PA is rated for a given power/strength and these provide a 'sensor continuum' between "unmodified" and "augmented" (where augmented is the maximum 'force' that the PA can produce). These are calibrated to the individual and their preference. If the sensors are calibrated to a Marine average, than an indiviudal wearing said calibrated armour would not be as 'strong' as a Marine. On the other hand, if a Marine wore armour calibrated to a human and applied their maximum 'force' they would 'overload' the sensors (this would mean that they've just wasted a lot of effort). To reiterate, I find the approach where the maximum force of the wearer is directly proportionate to the maximum force of the PA - the so-called "lever approach" - to be flawed, irrespective of whether you are using 'servomotors' or 'artificial muscles'. What you're actually trying to get at is the difference between Marine PA and non-Marine PA. Marine PA is the 'most advanced' that the adeptus mechanicus can produce, while non-marine PA uses lesser technology to try and mimic the same. This translates to less 'power' and, therefore, less 'strength'. Just giving you I heads up on my thoughts... Ah, that's reasonable enough... people are trying to argue the same on Portent and even being insulting about it. The irony being that all the examples being provided are actually in PA marines and is kind of missing the point.
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Post by Philip on Oct 5, 2004 9:00:18 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying and there is nothing actually wrong with your ideas, it is quite reasonable to assume armour of the type and function you are describing could be in a sci-fi setting. The first example of such a system would be the loader from the Aliens films, the second the snazzy exoskeleton suits form the matrix. In such systems I would fully agree with you, and human in such a suit would have the same strength, and that being the strength of the suit (in the matrix, the kid was as strong as the captain).
As for marines, I think one of the basic concepts of a marine is that they have super strength which is derived form their great mass. Most of a marine’s strength is derived from their muscle power, and ties into the whole ‘uber-man’ concept. Removing this primary element of their concept would destroy their imagery and their icon status.
=Counter argument= As a counter argument to your idea that Power Amour operates in the same manner as the Alien/ Matrix concept exoskeleton suits, is that anyone could then get inside a suit and use it regardless of strength (as you have stated).
If this was the case, why use big marines? If this type Alien/Matrix ex-sk system was effective and could be made the same size as a human: why not use smaller humans?
Why not save the space of the bulky marine body and cut the his brain out and stick it into a Alien/Matrix ex-sk suit (ie A servitor)?
The simple answer is that marines are stronger than servitors; their bio-engineered body is more efficient, faster and powerful than a machine of simpler size.
=Designs= Electric motors are too slow, but more importantly response time is too slow. It is a fundamental design ‘flaw’ to use an electric motor as the primary mover in regard to Power Armour. Motors have are not good in manipulating levers with any great speed (they really suck) whereas NFBs are (assumed) much quicker, and would suit this type of application (but I would guess they are not as powerful as a Marines natural muscle…).
Marines are very strong, the idea of Power Amour was to ensure their strength in used fully in combat, with none wasted on lugging around heavy armour needed to ensure they can get close to engage in close combat. The NFB offset the weight of the armour to achieve this goal, but the NFBs as less powerful than a marines muscle, the marine isn’t replaced with NFBs.
With regard to servo motors, because they are so slow, the only use would be as a ‘lock’. As an example, if a power lifter in PA lifted a heavy weight and he got it up to his chest the servos could then ‘lock’ taking the pressure of the arms. As he pressed the weight over his head, at each point the servos could lock, he could even stop half way (which is very hard to do) and ‘rest’ each time pushing out a little bit until the massive weight was lifted.
Therefore I think that Power Armour is a mixture of these two technologies (servo/ NFB), with each technology being used to its maximum potential.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 5, 2004 18:54:39 GMT -5
The first example of such a system would be the loader from the Aliens films, the second the snazzy exoskeleton suits form the matrix. <sigh> Those are entirely things conforming to the 'servomotor' system - again which is present in the 40k 'fluff' - but in which no way is removed with the artificial muscle concept. Indeed, synthetic muscle systems are ultimately the predecessor to these integrated forms. As for marines, I think one of the basic concepts of a marine is that they have super strength which is derived form their great mass. No, that's your interpretation. The basic concept is that they have greater strength - not super strength where the use of the word 'super' automatically moves the imagery towards four-colour superhuman strength ala Superman, Wolverine, etc. - resulting from bionetic enhancement. The increased 'mass' is a byproduct of that enhancement. Removing this primary element of their concept would destroy their imagery and their icon status. You seem to be arguing a question of scale, now. You just feel that they should be "uber strong" and no matter what technology there is should be able to level that field. All I can say is thank god that Dreadnoughts have Marines in them. I mean, if they had normal humans in them then they would be completely pointless... The Marines are physically more puissant than humans. Simple... I have not and will never gainsay that. The question is whether it is purely a function of brute strength, which I would disagree with. If this was the case, why use big marines? First off, this argument is inherently circular. I know you know this, yet you still use it... Why? Remember that the origin of the Marines defines much of their function. They were utilised in 'techno-barbarian' warfare, or at least their predecessors were, and one could draw from the post-apocalyptic/manga/anime imagery from here just as much from anywhere else. Big-is-bad! Or, put another way, psychology as much anything else... Hell, let's face it. Psychology is the key to the Marines even in a more tempered, and less fantasy, approach to the Marines. If this type Alien/Matrix ex-sk system was effective and could be made the same size as a human: why not use smaller humans? Please remember that Marine armour utilises the 'maximum' tech that the adeptus mechanicus can produce. All other systems, by default, are automatically 'lesser' than that of a Marine. If the adeptus mechanicus were to produce something for a normal human, however, I would presume that they could make it in that way... and, indeed, it would be cheaper to make as well! (Well, other than the fact that it would be a single-crafted item.) Why not save the space of the bulky marine body and cut the his brain out and stick it into a Alien/Matrix ex-sk suit (ie A servitor)? LMAO. For me it is ironic that you use this as a counter argument rather than questioning the entire function of the Marines in the first place. Both are equally valid justifications of 'counter-arguments'. However, I like Marines. I just don't like your cuboid gorilla Marines. The simple answer is that marines are stronger than servitors; their bio-engineered body is more efficient, faster and powerful than a machine of simpler size. Again, that's your simple answer and predicated upon the circular argument to start with. Electric motors are too slow, but more importantly response time is too slow. It is a fundamental design ‘flaw’ to use an electric motor as the primary mover in regard to Power Armour. I'll point this out again: it is the 'fluff' that defines both servomotors and artificial muscles. In this case, I don't give a flying Jimminy which they use since, ultimately, it is colour and in no way lessens any form of argument based upon the statement that Marines in power armour are blo**y strong and out of it less so. It is the less so that is the question and, quite simply, I do not see your argument as having a particular strength. Therefore I think that Power Armour is a mixture of these two technologies (servo/ NFB), with each technology being used to its maximum potential. Whatever, to be fair. But I see absolutely no reason to adopt the 'gorilla cubes'. I await a reasonable argument that lies outside the realm of supposition (i.e. "presumably" artifical muscles are more efficient than servomotors when, let's face it, the latter only shows up because of a writer's lack of ability to define stress in a non-motor situation). There seems to be some form of assumption that I'm arguing for motors. Again, I don't give a rat's bottom in this regard. What I am saying, however, is that a Marine is not a "cuboid gorilla". That the 'power' in PA off-sets weight is a given. I'll say that again: it is a given. If you are to take so much credence from the 'fluff', that you feel it is justified to have power systems on armour that can be penetrated by close combat weapons (including knives) because of it's mass... Well, that just proves that a circular argument does not exist in this case. Again, Phillip. The question is in the assumptions and suspensions of disbelief that one is willing to make. You want "cube gorilla" Marines. I want Marines that are ultimately human and then some. I'm going to work on the roughly human physiognomnies in the 'fluff' - which are glitchy in themselves - without introducing all the additional material unless it is proven to me that this is actually an interesting addition that does something for the universe than buy overtly into fantasy/giant imagery or the latest rehash. Oh yes, and just in case. This is not about servomotors versus artificial muscles. That is a bias that you are bringing in!
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