|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 7, 2004 14:12:49 GMT -5
Also using warp powers should be dangerous at low levels. Using the warp is dangerous at any level, yes. Indeed more so in the magic dominant approach... It is, however, more a question of mechanics and narrative. Psykers practice their abilities every day and are not always having to 'fight off' daemons indicating that there is a nominally 'safe' level of channelling... But in the narrative if "telekinetically" ("apporting") the light switch is enough to summon forth a daemon, then fair enough... (Mechanically it would be more difficult to 'possess' and, conceptually, would more than likely summon a lesser daemon...) Perhaps the problems is overcoming or controlling daemons before you can channel the warp? Nah... that perpetuates the idea that the warp is comprised primarily of daemons, which is not something that I agree with despite the pleasing shamanic undertones! Psionics can not affect people directly much like DEX, but add in the warp and its like adding STR. Except psionics do affect people... The warp gives you the ability to affect others 'physically through magic'. Would you suggest, for example, telekinesis is actually warp powered than 'psionic'? So in Psyker combat you use Psionics to find a weakness and to lock on (much like DEX and hitting and evasive foe) and back it up with Warp (the blow that causes damage). As we all are in these circumstances, I'm influenced by the game mechanics that I use. In a psionic model all you have to do is pinch of a major artery with telekinesis and your target is dead... Burst the aorta with telekinesis and, well, ick... Mechanically a tad too powerful... I would imagine that you would get tied doing this much the same a physically fighting so another stat for 'Psyker stamina' may be an idea? The UMana system doesn't account for 'fatigue', true, and that's something that I've been playing around with including... The most obvious means is to make the 'natural level' to be discrete and subject to fatigue while 'warp energy' requires the expenditure of personal energy at a greatly expanded ratio. The credit card for psykers, as it were... Also the risk of demonic possession may increase as you continue to use the warp energy? Yes, that's what I said...
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Aug 7, 2004 14:23:44 GMT -5
I'm saying it would have to be written specifically for 40K and introduce a new way of thinking. Under what I have described, yes, telekinetic would become 'warp powered' because is has a physical effect.
Psionics would be more like 'sense', were you can link with another person. Warp would be 'telekinetic', or anything that has a physical manifestation.
Pinching arteries would be very difficult using 'warp' power, you are far more likely to blow a big hole in the target then gently squeeze.
Basically you use Psionics to line it up (for a link), and press the trigger.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 7, 2004 14:34:22 GMT -5
I'm saying it would have to be written specifically for 40K and introduce a new way of thinking. Under what I have described, yes, telekinetic would become 'warp powered' because is has a physical effect. Well, knock yourself out. I'm not going to do it myself for a number of reasons. First off, the path of least resistance: using an established system is easier than creating your own. Secondly, I don't actually agree with your interpretation of how the warp is utilised by psykers... Less a 'new way of thinking' and more a case of interpretation and applicability. Psionics would be more like 'sense', were you can link with another person. Warp would be 'telekinetic', or anything that has a physical manifestation. Which moves it away from psionic and more to magic... You just seem to wish to require the utilisation of a "Sense spell" before any physical effect. Kind of reminiscent (IIRC) WEG's 2E Star Wars ("d6") and the Force... ...amongst other systems now that I think about. I seem to recall similar principles being used in the various types of combat utilised in Mythus: Dangerous Journeys...
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Aug 7, 2004 15:55:18 GMT -5
Well, knock yourself out. I'm not going to do it myself for a number of reasons. First off, the path of least resistance: using an established system is easier than creating your own. Secondly, I don't actually agree with your interpretation of how the warp is utilised by psykers... Less a 'new way of thinking' and more a case of interpretation and applicability. I wasn't suggesting that you would have to rewrite the whole system, just the psionics/ magic bit. Which moves it away from psionic and more to magic... You just seem to wish to require the utilisation of a "Sense spell" before any physical effect. Kind of reminiscent (IIRC) WEG's 2E Star Wars ("d6") and the Force... ...amongst other systems now that I think about. I seem to recall similar principles being used in the various types of combat utilised in Mythus: Dangerous Journeys... I was thinking the 'sense spell' is a bit weak sounding as I figured the psionics part being combative rather than passive, reflecting an agile mind. As an analogy; the psionics element is the hit role and the warp element the damage. It basically mirrors what happens in normal physical combat so the mechanics could be very similar. I though having two similar systems for mind and body would be nice and neat to design?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 7, 2004 23:37:43 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting that you would have to rewrite the whole system, just the psionics/ magic bit. Problem here is that I'm not convinced of your interpretation to how 'psykers' work. ...I figured the psionics part being combative rather than passive, reflecting an agile mind. As an analogy; the psionics element is the hit role and the warp element the damage. <grin> It's not hard to understand what you're saying, Phillip. Despite the change of spin, the 'psionic' portion remains a sensory 'skill': call it the ability to view and attune auras to allow a transfer of energy; make it sound like a 'rader sense' (clairaudience or whatever) if you will... it comes down to the same thing. Psionics is moved to an entirely 'mind' thing with no external effects, while 'warp' is basically anything which reaches beyond. Combination of the two concepts in this regard would be overtly complex since you're still only having an 'initiator' power activing any more damaging effect... The distinction is fairly minor, when it comes down to it. You're still utilising a distinct series of 'powers' rather than the more continuous psionics employed in some systems (i.e. psychokinesis, telepathy). Creating a new addition to a system for something which already exists depending on how you spin the narrative just seems redundant to me... again, and I don't entirely agree with the distinctions that you're making in terms of the perception of how things work: all psyker abilities are the manipulation and channelling of warp energy, for me.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Aug 8, 2004 0:18:28 GMT -5
Psykers sound like they use Psionics.
Perhaps an all Psionics system, but have the 'warp' as a modifier in some way? I'm not too aware of GURPS but using plain numbers;
Psionics: 5 This means you can use a selection of powers up to level 5 (or whatever your chosen systems uses).
Your character also gets a 'max bonus' equal to their Psionics level. Warp Power: +5
So if they channel the warp at +5 they have a power level of 10 (double power!)
However using the warp modifier would attached Daemons, perhaps a D6 vs the amount of warp energy used, So +5 would attached Daemons on a 5 or less etc.
Perhaps the number of failed attraction roles form a pool or temporally lower sanity, when the pool or sanity runs out the Psyker is possessed?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 8, 2004 1:39:20 GMT -5
Psykers sound like they use Psionics. Yes, that was the logic I first went on when 'converting' the 40k universe over to GURPS. I found myself inventing things and borrowing concepts from other systems to cludge together a workable representation of "psykers" in their totality but it didn't work. The adoption of magic - and remember I'm talking about a specific system here - solved the problem. Perhaps an all Psionics system, but have the 'warp' as a modifier in some way? Yep, that would actually work. Psionics are measured in Power which determine the 'force' at which you apply that Power (e.g. weight lifted, distance telepathically communication). Having a generic 'warp modifier' which increases the Power level, in a similar way that 'pushing' the Power (e.g. utilisation of 'fatigue' to add to the Power), would also work... ... But again the argument is predicated entirely upon the fact that "psykers" must necessarily translate as psionics. Just as psionics can be used to represent magic (i.e. ritualised forms and processes as a means of achieving 'focus' for the practice of psionic discipline), so can the situation be reversed. Given that since the original post of this thread the 'magic only' concept has been developed and represented as 'psyker abilities' changing things just to make them 'psionic' seems to be a fruitless exercise. (Though admittedly the major difference between Psionics and Magic is that the former is much, much more expensive in terms of character generation. That in itself is sometimes appealing...) Perhaps the number of failed attraction roles form a pool or temporally lower sanity, when the pool or sanity runs out the Psyker is possessed? I would personally leave possession to the narrative. Rather the 'sanity' - and I dislike the term more for the obvious Lovecraftian undertones than anything else (huge leap on my behalf, admittedly ) - determines the strength of the daemon and that individual action combined with abilities couple to determine whether possession is successful or not (and the nature of such possession: gradual or otherwise). I'm always not particularly fond of systems where you have a "Roll for possession... Oh, damn, you're possessed. Sorry. Roll up another character..." (And, yes, I know about the story potential of a possessed character...)
|
|
|
Post by schoon on Jan 29, 2005 0:14:20 GMT -5
I'm going to try and keep this "system-non-specific" and talk in terms that could apply to whatever one decides to use... Judging from the 40K fiction I've read (a not-inconsequential amount), Imperial psykers tend to be more like psionicists, and Chaos psykers tend to be more like sorcerors. There are several ways one might model/rationalise this: 1) Imperial psykers draw upon positive or unaligned warp-power, whereas Chaos sorcerors have to "bargain" with the negative powers in the warp. 2) One's power might be like psionics up to a certain threshhold, either in power-level or overall use, and then it's treated more like magic. My personal preference, simply because I very much enjoy Dan Abnett's work (if you haven't read the Eisenhorn Trilogy, it's worth picking up), is to treat them as freeform powers (so I suppose my answer is "neither" ) There was an RPG by White Wolf (IIRC) a long time ago that had a free-form magic system. You imagined an affect, and then figured out how much "magic" it took to create it. That's how I'd prefer to do psychic powers in 40K.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 31, 2005 0:01:18 GMT -5
Although I'm constantly torn between the various options, I've long since come to the conclusion that magic is the best fit when all things are considered. Especially when one comes to terms with the idea of 'clerical' magic, which is (again) the best fit with 'chaos sorcerers'.
The only real bugger is with 'natural telepaths', but there we go.
As to the Mage the Ascension magic system, it is a tad too powerful for the 40k game even with conversion. I use it, but oly as 'high psykers' (transcendent beings) than anything else. And then only as a personal interpretation.
|
|
|
Post by schoon on Feb 1, 2005 11:33:31 GMT -5
By-the-by, the magic system I was trying to remember (unsuccessfully) was Ars Magica, which has an excellent free-form magic system.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Feb 1, 2005 19:34:59 GMT -5
Ah yes, I've seen that game system. I didn't particularly like the premise of it so I didn't bother reading too much about it but, yes, the magic system does spring to mind. Of course, from what I can recall there are similar ways of achieving it in different systems so it's a matter of preference and, as always, money.
|
|
|
Post by schoon on Feb 3, 2005 10:50:05 GMT -5
If you so desire, to check out the magic system, Ars Magica 4th edition is available as a free download from RPG-Now here.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Feb 3, 2005 19:33:26 GMT -5
I'll add it to the list. Thanks for that!
|
|