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Post by Destecado on Nov 13, 2004 12:35:25 GMT -5
Would it work if the Aoideans left behind great ruins, which later worked like spirit stones for the Hosok? It would just make sense in that the Eldar are dependant on their spirit stones to 'escape' the warp, so the Aoideans/ Hosok should need some device as well. Yes this could work. I was actually developing a concept of something like a stone circle (standing stones) which provide a locus or link for the Hosok to tie themselves to their world. Perhaps when powered up the stone create a field or warp rift, that allows the Aoideans to come through into our reality in a stable enviroment...these could perhaps be your warp gates. I do see one major difference between the hosok and the Aoideans. The Aoideans seem to have rejected this reality for existance in the warp, where as the Hosok revel in this existance and fear being cut off from it entirely. Where the Aoideans may satisfy themselves with manifesting in the material world or utilizing a "warp gate" in order to exist on this plane, the hosok crave physical form...and will do anything to get it and keep it. when they seperated from the Aoideans and left, they gained themselve about another 6-7 cenutries before they were finally run to ground by the Imperium of Man. Even in that final hour when they recognized that the prophecies of the Aoideans had been true...the need to sacrifice themselves, the still could not let go of their physical forms. They commited ritual suicide, but bound themselves to the planet, rather than submit to what they saw as utter destruction of being cast into the warp. This is why the "haunt" the planet. The ruins might be found far underground, of course, so you could have forests, old houses or other locations that were 'cursed with Hosok spirits' from the fact that there were Aoidean / Hosok ruins far underneath. That is agreeable. The undergound location is the actual power source that connects to the warp, while stone circles or other temples on the surface are mere conduits for accessing the greater source.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 14, 2004 6:49:53 GMT -5
what happens if the "stone sircles" or "temples" are demolished to make room for cities?
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Post by CELS on Nov 14, 2004 8:14:45 GMT -5
Yes this could work. I was actually developing a concept of something like a stone circle (standing stones) which provide a locus or link for the Hosok to tie themselves to their world. Perhaps when powered up the stone create a field or warp rift, that allows the Aoideans to come through into our reality in a stable enviroment...these could perhaps be your warp gates. It's important that they are as safe as possible, of course, so we don't have an ocean of daemons and other nasties pouring into the Anargo sector. Makes sense. I can see why, since only a fraction of the Aoideans survived the ordeal. Only those with a very powerful presence in the warp were able to live on without their bodies. Fair enough. Of course, the stone circles or temples don't have to be on the surface. Most of the remaining structures on Earth that are several millennia old, are found under ground, under a pile of sand and dirt. what happens if the "stone sircles" or "temples" are demolished to make room for cities? Then the Hosok do not appear in that location any more, I'd say. The same as if one were to destroy an Eldar spiritstone. The Eldar spirit is no longer held in the material realm.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 14, 2004 8:33:04 GMT -5
That might present some problems for the Hosok, then. If "appearing" in the material world requires an aboveground focus, and major development of the planet(s) would "kill" dozens of Hosok. It also flattens the (very neat) idea of civilian houses "haunted" by Hosok spirits whose ruins are underground where the house is built.
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Post by CELS on Nov 14, 2004 10:17:35 GMT -5
Not really. The Hosok ruins could still be intact underneath the human houses. Putting a spiritstone underground doesn't immediately destroy it. In England, for example, a lot of old houses have been found, which have been perfectly preserved underground for the past millennia. It would be the same for the Hosok ruins. As long as the mechanism of the spirit anchor isn't broken, then the Hosok could haunt all they want.
The Hosok might also have had the foresight to build their anchors like a bunker, with only a small part visible on the surface. Kinda like the temple on the North pole, in Alien vs Predator, for those who've seen that movie.
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Post by Destecado on Nov 15, 2004 11:36:13 GMT -5
It's important that they are as safe as possible, of course, so we don't have an ocean of daemons and other nasties pouring into the Anargo sector. We'll have to work this. I would say it need some for of activation sequence in order for the gate to operate...This is not to say that a chaos cult couldn't try to take over one of the gates. this could also be a plot hook for the RPG or a scenario for the wargame. One though that I had is that maybe the gate itself is "haunted". there might be a soul bound to the gate that acts as a gatekeeper. It may only open the gates for the proper energy signatures. It may be that humans or other cultures have found one or two of these gates, but have misunderstood their actual purpose. Perhaps they have mistaken them for Oracles. It could be that the guardians spirit can manifest within the circle. The spirit might welcome the contact...someone to speak to after centuries or it could be vengful, giving false or misleading information. It could also be a way for the Aoideans to gain worshipers...if I remember correctly they need prayers or whorshipers in order to sustain themselves...unless this has been dropped. Fair enough. Of course, the stone circles or temples don't have to be on the surface. Most of the remaining structures on Earth that are several millennia old, are found under ground, under a pile of sand and dirt. Burried under the sediment of time or built over by other cultures both work fine. Of course in order to use the gates, it would be necessary to dig up the circles or create some other form of access to them. A deep underground cavern attached to a mine shaft would make a foreboding enviroment. It may be that there were also climactic changes to the planets. The ruins could lay at the bottom of a lake or peet bog. The more remote areas fit well with the ideas of hauntings. The "haunted forest" where the Ma'giese congregate may have such a circle at its center. The spirits are only able to travel a short distance from the gate...which is why they appear to an outside observer to remain within the forest and not venture outside of it. Then the Hosok do not appear in that location any more, I'd say. The same as if one were to destroy an Eldar spiritstone. The Eldar spirit is no longer held in the material realm. Indeed, if their anchor is destroyed, they would lose their link to the material plain and pass on into the warp.
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Post by CELS on Nov 19, 2004 12:20:08 GMT -5
We'll have to work this. I would say it need some for of activation sequence in order for the gate to operate...This is not to say that a chaos cult couldn't try to take over one of the gates. this could also be a plot hook for the RPG or a scenario for the wargame. Definitely! Seems fair, but might not a horde of daemons try to force their way through from the warp? Are the Hosok powerful enough to stop chaos daemons? That would work as well, and be quite interesting. Witch cults could start as humans consult the Hosok spirits for guidance. Very nice. Aoideans still need prayers and worshipping for energy, I think, though they'd also be able to feed off other warp entities. Very cool! I didn't think about lakes. Haunted lakes and haunted forests... these are going to be interesting worlds. Indeed, if their anchor is destroyed, they would lose their link to the material plain and pass on into the warp. [/quote]
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Post by Destecado on Dec 3, 2004 17:13:49 GMT -5
Seems fair, but might not a horde of daemons try to force their way through from the warp? Are the Hosok powerful enough to stop chaos daemons? UI know that we still have alot to work out with regards to the relationship between the Aoideans and the Hosok, but I did want to come back and post a little more here. It may help to define some other areas of the discussion (on the related threads). With regards to the portal or gateway. I see it as a door that opens or lock only from one side. You can enter the warp through the door, but may may only enter the matterium if someone on that side opens it up for you. Rather than a doorway, perhaps the portal should be considered more like a an artificial warp rift...Imagine the end of a balloon. When open air can flow in and out...when close by tying a knot in it the flow of air is stopped. The knot which is like reality tied in around itself is actually denser than the surrounding reality. It is even more difficult for a warp entity to materialize near these gates when they are closed...which is how they protect themselves.
I've also been working on the Hosok language. It ties into their phylosophy and world view...so probably I should describe this first. Phylosophy (Mythology)The Hosok view themselves as the descendants of stars, who are the descendants of the eternal fire or flame of creation. This is not to be confused with the C'tan who were engery creatures that fed on stars. The Hosok view their spirits or souls to be sparks of created by the children of the sacred fire of creation. The oposite of this fire of creation is the inky blackness of the void (nothingness). The Hosok have no afterlife, true death occurs when the flame of the spirit is exstinguished...when it passes beyond into the warp. The souls of the Hosok are mear flikering candels against the onslaught of theis maelstrom. Most go out consigned to oblivion. There are a small few who transcend oblivion (death) and becme like the stars themselves...shining brightly in the warp. Hosok do not fear the death of physicality as long as their spirit continues, that is all that matters. This still needs some work, but I hope it works as a basic concept. I'll try to flesh it out more once we solve some of the problems in the related threads. The Maleable FormRather than being stuck in one form, the Hosok have developed the ability to modify themselves. This is normally accomplished through an individual called a Molator. The molator shapes has the ability to shape the body and organs into new forms. By channeling warp energies through themselves, the Molators can twist and mold the form like clay. Even the Aoideans from which they came had some control over the developement and shaping of their physical being. The molators mearly take this natural progression to its fullest extent. When the Hosok broke from the Aoideans, they wanted nothing to remind them of their past. They remade themselve to no longer look like the hated Aoideans and set out to create a new destiny for themselves as the Hosok. LanguageThe changeability comes out in the Hosok's language. Words can take on different meaning based on their pronunciation and where they appear in a sentence or even as part of a word. Example: Kek A simple word but full of meaining. Kek in the Hosok language describes a state of being. Unmodified as it is above, it means death or nothingness (this is the true death when the fire of the spirit is exstinguished). In this form it is also one of the direst insults. To call someone Kek is to call the "nothing". Kek is actually part of the word Hosok. Hosok is the everyday pronunciation of the race name. The more formalized name is Ho'so-kek. Ho: By itself, it is pronounce like the word no. It means yes or affirmative. When modifying a word or at the begining of a word, the "o" is pronounced more like that in the word "of". So: By itself or when followed by a -, it is pronounced like the word no. In the Hosok numbering system it represents the number "1". With the addition of kek (So-k), it also means "I" or "an individual". Ho'so-kek: Together it conveys the meaning " a true individual" or "the rightnest or oneness of being". Put into simpler terms "The Righteous".
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Post by CELS on Dec 11, 2004 8:07:29 GMT -5
I know that we still have alot to work out with regards to the relationship between the Aoideans and the Hosok, but I did want to come back and post a little more here. It may help to define some other areas of the discussion (on the related threads). No problem. Not only that, but it's important to keep working on the stuff that one finds most interesting at the moment. Which is why I've been a rather 'selfish' lately and tried to finish my Knight worlds Fair enough, when you put it like that. Does this mean that the gate is totally uninteresting to Chaos overlords who want to find a way for their patrons to come and visit? In other words, does this mean that the chaos cultist plot hook is out the window? If this were the case, then the artifacts would sound a lot like a merge between Old One and C'tan technology. Would the gates have similarities to the C'tan monoliths? Do you see this as an ancient Aoidean religion, or did the Hosok pull this stuff out of thin air as doom approached? The transcending... is this their belief or what actually happens, or both? And why do the Hosok have this belief? Do they see themselves or the universe as having some purpose? Sounding slightly like Kroot shapers, if you want to look for similarities Interesting. I thought the Hosok distanced themselves from the warp and warpcraft, but I see now that they just have a different approach. Interesting. Smooth. Very nice! It's always interesting to explore 'details' such as language and names. What does the Imperium call the Hosok though? Do they have a different name for them, or do they know the Hosok well enough to call them by their real name?
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Post by Destecado on Dec 11, 2004 9:51:31 GMT -5
No problem. Not only that, but it's important to keep working on the stuff that one finds most interesting at the moment. Which is why I've been a rather 'selfish' lately and tried to finish my Knight worlds I don't see it as being selfish. You can either focus on one project and do it right or try to do two or three at once and the quality of all suffer. Does this mean that the gate is totally uninteresting to Chaos overlords who want to find a way for their patrons to come and visit? In other words, does this mean that the chaos cultist plot hook is out the window? They can still force the gate from this side if they are able to defeat the Hosok spirit guardian. The guardian acts as a gate keeper and regulator of the energy necessary to open the gate. Normally it takes 5-10 other Hosok spirits acting in concert...energizing the surrounding standing stones in order topower the gate and open it. I'm sure that similar energy could be generated by the chaos cultists sacrificing enough people and spreading their blood on the stones to force the gate open. If this were the case, then the artifacts would sound a lot like a merge between Old One and C'tan technology. Would the gates have similarities to the C'tan monoliths? Possibly. i'm not too sure about the C'tan technology, but there may have been Old One technology still present in the galaxy around the time that the Aoideans were out and about the galaxy. They may have been exposed to the Old Ones warp gate technology and adapted it for their own use. Granted, they may have not been able to figure out exactly how to power it (technologically), so they created an altrnate power source in the form of spiritual energy (energy drawn by psykers from the warp). Do you see this as an ancient Aoidean religion, or did the Hosok pull this stuff out of thin air as doom approached? I see it as being perhaps based off old Aoidean legends, perhaps even being an old religion from the early days of the culture that foundnew life later on. An example in our world would be the old pagan beleifs (such as wicca) that popular culture has dusted off and made "trendy". They have married ideas taken from these early religions with pop psychology to create new age phylosophy. With their culture falling apart around them, the Aoideans that would become the Hosok may have reserected these ideas into a new form. They then used this new religion to start a movement among the people. Think how the world has been changed by Christianity (for good and ill). If the religion had never caught on, would or world be the same as it is today? during times of great social and cultural upheaval, many people turn to religion trying to find some stability in their life. Religion is of course not the only thing that people turn to. Some turn to drugs or sex or a host of other divergances...what they are seeking is some concrete or stabilizing feature in a life that is being turned upside down as the society they knew falls apart around them...the drowning man grasping at anything to save himself. The transcending... is this their belief or what actually happens, or both? And why do the Hosok have this belief? Do they see themselves or the universe as having some purpose? This is harder to answer, without further information about the Aodieans and when the divergance actually took place. The way I see it, the Aoideans (at least of the sect that would become the Hosok) view the sacred fire of creation as a devine entity. It is not really a god so much as the father / mother of their race. As to what purpose the universe serves...I really can't say what the Hosok would say. Mankind has been struggling with the meaning of life and existance for thousands of years. Those that reach transcendance (existing without physicality, but not anchored to any object) are thought to have attained a level closer to the divine fire of creation. In society, they would be viewed as eldars. Prayers would be made to them to as for their assistance. These are not prayers to a deity, more asking favors from an older relative. The Hosok as I see them was a counter movement among the Aoideans that rose up in opposition to another sect of Aoideans calling for a transcendance of the Aoidean race to a higher plain of being. To put it in context of an existing religion, this could be seen as the Rapture of christianity, where god would take up those that had been faithful. The rest would be left on earth for judgement day. Actually...I think I may have the solution. rememebr how we were discussing the fact that religion sort of took a sideline in Aoidean culture and most turned to science. Most scientific theory and laws explain the world of the physical. Ephemeral or spiritual exploration, which is nearly impossible to quantify is deem religion. It is not backed up by actual physical data, but only beleif. This might have seemed anathama to most of the "scientifically minded" Aoideans who viewed themselves as rational beings. Of course when half your population commits mass suicide and beings that bear a striking similarity to the legends of ascended spirits begin apearing, your society will definitely experience some shake up. What if instead of a single mass suicide, it was more gradual. One group committed suicide and then a couple of other groups. It would be a cultural phenomenon that the Aoidean soiety would be at a loss to explain. Worse than the deaths were those that came back, spirits of those past began to visit the living, telling them of their continued existance after death and urging them to join them. You would of course have those that would fear this final death and not be able to accept or even think about it without revulsion. They might have tried to eliminate or protect the citizens from these visitations. To that end, the Aoideans reached back into their history for rituals and "magics" to combat the power of these "warp entites" mascarading as their departed relatives. These rituals combined with their science is what eventually developed into the Hosok culture. I know the above is kind of rough, but what are your opinons of the basic premice?Very nice! It's always interesting to explore 'details' such as language and names. What does the Imperium call the Hosok though? Do they have a different name for them, or do they know the Hosok well enough to call them by their real name? I was thinking that the Imperium would know them as the Hosok. The have been able to get a basic understanding of the language. It might be interesting if some of the individuals that are helping with the excavation actually have Hosok spirits within them.
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Post by CELS on Dec 13, 2004 3:12:35 GMT -5
I don't see it as being selfish. You can either focus on one project and do it right or try to do two or three at once and the quality of all suffer. Actually, I think the quality of the Anargo sector project would suffer if everyone focused entirely on their own area Brilliant ;D Maybe, maybe. Is it possible that they could have learned a thing or two from the seven artefacts? I just don't want to have oodles of Old one artefacts in the Anargo sector, seeing as how they're not exactly common in other parts ofthe galaxy. Yeah, but established religions usually have an answer of some kind. According to christianity, God created the universe because he was lonely, right? And then he created Earth as a sort of testing ground to see which souls he wanted to take with him to heaven. What's the point in religion if it doesn't offer you the comfort of purpose? If you're going to die and disappear anyway, why bother with worship? Eldars? What do you mean? Brilliant. Actually, that's pretty good. Perhaps these Hosok struggled for prolonged life rather than afterlife? Before they developed (or used) the spirit anchors, they might have been the ultimate consumers of life-prolonging drugs and surgery, putting humans to shame. Humans might live for centuries with these drugs, but the Hosok might have lived for ten millennia or more. Doing what? PS: Note that I've edited my reply in the Aoidean thread.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Dec 13, 2004 4:56:35 GMT -5
Misdirecting things, minor sabotage, who knows? It all depends on whether the Hosok want to be found or not, and what they want the Imperium to know about them when they are found.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 13, 2004 17:10:06 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe. Is it possible that they could have learned a thing or two from the seven artefacts? I just don't want to have oodles of Old one artefacts in the Anargo sector, seeing as how they're not exactly common in other parts ofthe galaxy. That's a possibility as well, but it all depends on where the artefacts wind up and how much access they have to them. I'm also not fond of oodles of Old Ones knick nacks showing up. The artefacts were made to stand the test of time and the technology under which they operate is similar to that of warp gates, so it is possible that this was the basis for their warp gate or warp technology. Of course they would not have had the same technical abilities as the Old Ones, so they would need to adapt and change things to make it work under the technology they had available....sort of like the evolution of computers. What now fits on the top of a desk use to take up 3 or 4 large rooms. Yeah, but established religions usually have an answer of some kind. According to christianity, God created the universe because he was lonely, right? And then he created Earth as a sort of testing ground to see which souls he wanted to take with him to heaven. Transcendance would probably be the goal of their religion. If we use the old gnostic philosophy, it was to reach the highest possible plain of existance...a return to the divine. The are actually gnostic sects that beleived that the physical form was evil, they lead ascetic lives and hoped to attain a level of pure spirit leaving the physical form behind....actually, this may be similar tothe sect of Aoideans that commited suicide. The Hosok may have grown out of an opposite view that the world was created for them to enjoy. How can a spirit enjoy a chocolate bar, a fine meal, sex, laying in the sun...etc. They were a sect of sentualits who felt that only by experiencing everything that was there to experience could they know the true motives of the divine. Why would the divine created these things if it did not want us to experience them. The ascetics cut themselves off from the divine by denying these pleasures...this makes them sound like they are heading down the road to Slaanesh followers. Maybe some of them actually fall to Slannesh, which would be another reason for the spirit tethers...unless you think this makes them sound too much like the eldar. Although it might be interesting if they paralell the eldar just a little bit. It would allw us to do things with the race that since the eldar are so tied up in the fluff...and Kage is so protective of, we would never have a chance to do. What's the point in religion if it doesn't offer you the comfort of purpose? If you're going to die and disappear anyway, why bother with worship? Hmmm...good point. Maybe the answer depends on the sect you ask. The Aoideans who assend through suicide do so to escape hell. The matterial world is hell or at least a purgatory where a soul must face temptations before ascending to the next level where their are still temptations, but freed from a physical form they are more easily controlled. The sensualists would see this world as heaven. The divie created this reality as paridise. It was made for the children of the divine to grow and prosper. By partaking of all that this reality has to offer, they might know the plan of the creator and be able to join him in his creation. For them, the divine was not without a physical form. It could create one out of the essence of this reality, becoming anything it desired. By willingly casting commiting suicide, the Aoideans were in essence turning their back on their creator (throwing away the gift it had given them). While it is true that the Hosok could still die and lose their physical form, they could anchor themselves to physical objects and if the chance arose, take another physical form. The Moltars are revered, because they have the abitiy to manipulate and change the physical form...which makes them seem closer to the divine. Eldars? What do you mean? Sorry, I meant elders...like the older relatives in a family or a council of elders which usually serve a chieftan as advisors in a tribal society. Actually, that's pretty good. Perhaps these Hosok struggled for prolonged life rather than afterlife? Before they developed (or used) the spirit anchors, they might have been the ultimate consumers of life-prolonging drugs and surgery, putting humans to shame. Humans might live for centuries with these drugs, but the Hosok might have lived for ten millennia or more. Sounds reasonable. Their culture was already long lived to begin with, but through their technology, they were able to extend their lives even further...Actually maybe the process of prolonging their lives also had the unfortunate side effect of making them sterile. They knew that there was an upward mark beyond which they would no longer be able to sustain themselves. This is where they started exploring other alternatives and came up with the spiritual anchors. It would be the first time a culture came up with an advancement that had serious reprocussions down the road. Actually a question...the way we have been describing the warp gates or spirit circles, the Aoideans seem to be able to use them as well as the Hosok. Does this mean that they eventually had a reconciliation? Part of the reason might be as Glyphstone said, to mislead them. If it became common knowledge about the fact that the Hosok were not gone, but still tied to the planet, this may bring the heavy boot of the Inquisition. There is also the fact that some of their technology has survived. y being part of the dig crew, they may be able to lay their hands on some of these artefacts and make off with them. I've actually been toying with two artefacts that might be high on their list to locate. The first is a device used to focus the psychic energies of a Hosok into a potent weapon. While a hosok is able to strike at range with his psychic power over a short distance, this device augments that ability. It consists of a set of rings on all the fingers of the hand tied together with bands. Each finger has 2-3 rings depending on the number of knuckles on the hand. There is also a much larger ring in the center of the palm. I have been toying with the number of fingers that the Hosok had. Iwas considering three finger and a thumbThese rings are inscribed with different sigilsof power andfeed off each other through the bands that connect them. The system also has a large metalic ball, which has a spirit bound in it. To use the device, the Hosok focuses all of its rage into the sphere. This will awaken the spirit inside which augments the Hosoks own rage. The sphere can be projected out away from the hand (telekinetically). The Hosok need only swing his fist as if delivering a punch or hammer blow and the sphere will mimic his movement (magnifying the force of the impact several fold). For the wargame, this will count as the Hosoks ranged attack. In close combat, the sphere strikes like a power weapon.
The other device is a form of protection. Rather than one large sphere, this device consists of between 3-5 smaller spheres or disc shaped objects. Again the Hosok controls them mentally. For the wargame, they provide a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat only. The spheres spin around the Hosoks body at high velocity deflecting blows away from it. Unfortunately, progectiles are moving at too high a rate of speed for your average Hosok to deflect.
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