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Post by Destecado on Oct 26, 2004 13:49:59 GMT -5
The concept for the Hosok race grew out of old fairy tales and myths about Changelings and the 10,000 immortals of Chinese Legend. Changelings are the færie children that are left in the place of a stolen human baby. Similar myths can be found not only in Celtic folk lore, but in that of the Chinese and North American Legends.
Rather than having this be the swapping of fae infants for human infants, I was thinking perhaps instead having the souls of the Hosok reborn into Human children. These would be children conceived through violence or born to corrupted individuals.
The Hosok were a race that was wiped out by the Imperium of Man. But as their last stronghold was about to fall, they conceived a plot for their revenge against humanity. Through a dark ritual, they freed their spirits from their bodies (commiting ritual suicide in the process) and tied them to the very planet.
The spirits of those that participated n the ritual were quiesent over many centuries. Finally humans came to inhabit the world. The Hosok sought out those among them that would be maliable and could be influenced. Over time, they were able to make sme kill their fellow humans (it actually proved quite easy in some cases).
The Hosok were also able to be reborn through humans. They would wait till the time of conception and comendere the phetus from the human soul...pushing it out to be destroyed or devoured by the other angry Hosok spirits.
In this way in every generation a few Hosok were reborn. They lived and grew among the humans, but always knew that they were different. Those that had been "reborn" began to prepare the way for others of their kind to join them.
They also began to set up organizations and networks to find the others of their kind that had been reborn and whatch over them or to gather them if their human parents proved unworthy.
Their numbers are still few compared with the overall population so the "reborn" Hosok have begun to re-establis their bio-manipulation techniques. with these sciences, they have created golums to serve as their foot soldires (sort of a cross between the Frankenstein's monster and your standard servitor).
The original plot for their revenge was to destroy humanity from the inside. There has been some fall out from this original plan. Some of the "reborn" Hosok wish to subjugate mankind and rule over them. Others only wish to revel in their newly acquired corporial form after existing as a disembodied spirit for centuries.
I thought this race might make an intersting secret society or clandestine cult to add to the ASP....it would also be nice to see a cult that does not have ties to chaos (although some of their aims appear to coincide). Any thoughts?
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 28, 2004 17:48:17 GMT -5
One of the guiding principles of magi... psyker abilities... is essentially the 'ole magical adage, "As Above, So Below." How do you see this impinging on what is otherwise an extremely interesting concept.
(Incidentally, I am not fond of the golem idea. I would prefer them utilising 'secret' technologies rather than 'bio-manipulation'.)
Oh yes, and remember that the soul is 'psychic energy' so to have this level of ability the chances are that they are going to be psykers...
Still, great idea and I'l like to see more of it. (And if you ever get the chance, look at my proposed system... as token roleplayer it would be interesting to see how it might integrate into my system.)
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Post by CELS on Oct 29, 2004 13:51:57 GMT -5
Hmm. I agree that it's a wonderfully evil idea, but... it does remind me a bit of the Aoideans... Cornered by a greater enemy (humans for the Hosok, orks or chaos for the Aoideans), commiting mass suicide only to return many years later.
If I may be so bold, I would suggest that the Hosok could actually originally have been humans. Well, sorcerors and magi. Either that, or we have two races in the Anargo sector that were destroyed, committed mass suicide and then returned...
Apart from this minor problem... do the Hosok only exist on their original world, or would they spread as the reborn travelled to other worlds? How many Hosok are there, and are they dwindling or growing in numbers? On what plain do the Hosok spirits exist? Do they inhabit the physical realm or some level of the warp?
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Oct 29, 2004 16:40:32 GMT -5
I like it.
However, I do agree that these Hosok draw uncomfortable parallels with the Aoidieans at the moment.
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Post by Destecado on Oct 29, 2004 17:11:07 GMT -5
Hmm. I agree that it's a wonderfully evil idea, but... it does remind me a bit of the Aoideans... Cornered by a greater enemy (humans for the Hosok, orks or chaos for the Aoideans), commiting mass suicide only to return many years later. The Aoideans commited mass suicide....I don't remember reading that, but granted, it has been a long time since I have looked at the Aoideans fluff. If I may be so bold, I would suggest that the Hosok could actually originally have been humans. Well, sorcerors and magi. Either that, or we have two races in the Anargo sector that were destroyed, committed mass suicide and then returned... I'm open to discussing how they actually wound up the way they did, but the Hosok are definitely not human. Apart from this minor problem... do the Hosok only exist on their original world, or would they spread as the reborn travelled to other worlds? How many Hosok are there, and are they dwindling or growing in numbers? On what plain do the Hosok spirits exist? Do they inhabit the physical realm or some level of the warp? The Hosok began on their original world, but since they have travelled to others. This is one of the fabulous things that has been opened up to them by being reborn in humans. The Hosok were a pre-warp drive culture. When the Imperium arrived, they were found on three of the planets in the system. Their culture appeared to be below the tech level necessary to create even system ships, yet some how they had colonized three worlds. The reborn travel to other worlds, but each of them always brings some of the native soil with them. It is a locus that calls to their spirit if they were to die while off their home world. The number of reborn are steadily growing...although some have been lost to purges by the Inquisition. If not exorcised by a inqisitor, a Hosok can be reborn over and over again. There were originally about 1200 Hosok that died in the ritual. The "reborn" currently number about 500. In addition to this number, the reborn have begun attempts to have children of their own although pregnancies appear to be difficult if not impossible for them in their human bodies. The spirits of the disposses (those that have yet to acquire a host body) reside on the physical plain. Some reside in singularly or in small groups, "haunting those that have usurped their homes. Most though congregate together into a malevolent mist known as the Ma'giese. It is a fell fog that drifts across the land. Local legend states becoming lost in this mist is dangerous. The mist works to bring those who enter it to a bad end. One can not trust the sounds or the shapes one sees inside it. There is also the chance that of becoming possesed by the mist. The spirits that make up the Ma'geise will attempt to enter and rest control of anyone who comes within the mist. Those possessed are consummed by the rage and anger of the souls that make up the Ma'geise. They become like animals, trying to fullfill the alien desires of a multitude of inhuman voices in their mind. they are driven by the hunger of the Ma'geise. Those unfortunate enough to fall prey to the mist generally die painfullly as their bodies are overtaxed or their minds are torn apart by all of the spirits fighting over it.
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Post by CELS on Oct 30, 2004 4:43:30 GMT -5
The Aoideans commited mass suicide....I don't remember reading that, but granted, it has been a long time since I have looked at the Aoideans fluff. Ah. The thread is still there. Have a look How? I don't understand how a spirit can exist in the physical plain in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, without introducing some new elements. You have daemons residing in the physical realm, but they draw power from the warp to do so. A spirit in the physical plain that is independent from the warp... I don't get it... Love this idea, but again, I don't get it. How does this work?
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Post by Destecado on Oct 30, 2004 8:23:27 GMT -5
One of the guiding principles of magi... psyker abilities... is essentially the 'ole magical adage, "As Above, So Below." How do you see this impinging on what is otherwise an extremely interesting concept. I'm not really sure what you are gettng at. I view the Hosok as a race that uses "magic" (Psycho manipulaton) in order to do things for which we have invented technology. (Incidentally, I am not fond of the golem idea. I would prefer them utilising 'secret' technologies rather than 'bio-manipulation'.) That's fine. Calling it something other than bio manipulation is doable....perhaps the study of psycho science (the application of psychic abilities with regards to the natural world). Perhaps golems was not the best term to describe what I meant by servants (I'll explain in more depth below). Oh yes, and remember that the soul is 'psychic energy' so to have this level of ability the chances are that they are going to be psykers... I do intend for them to be psykers. Of course that said, there are those that are more talented (psychically attuned) than others. Their psychic abilities also vary depending on their role in society. Example: The Hosok do not have anything resebling firearms used by the other races in 40k. They do have bladed weapons, but the general ranged weapon of the Hosok is a psychic strike. It is a metal blast useable over short distances, that can be used to kill or disable prey when hunting or an enemy in combat. This attack is of course applicable to the original Hosok. I have yet to descide if it should carry over nto their new Human formStill, great idea and I'l like to see more of it. (And if you ever get the chance, look at my proposed system... as token roleplayer it would be interesting to see how it might integrate into my system.) I'll give the system a look and try to integrate the concepts into the design of the Hosok...although I think I'm going to have to rework the concept if it is to that of the Aiodeans.
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Post by Destecado on Oct 30, 2004 9:14:05 GMT -5
Ah. The thread is still there. Have a look I definitely intend to give it a re-read. I am still working out the logistic behind it, but the working concept deals with the Hosok being carried on the currents of the warp to another world...sort of like the seed pods of some trees that fall off of trees and are carried great distances by the terrestrial wind. Travel to other stars would be too far for this mode of transportation. they are however able to make it to worlds within their own star system. Another way to think about is as a long range teleport. Very few Hosok have the ability to do this, but the most talented are able to move not only themselves, but others with them. I don't understand how a spirit can exist in the physical plain in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, without introducing some new elements. You have daemons residing in the physical realm, but they draw power from the warp to do so. A spirit in the physical plain that is independent from the warp... I don't get it... Part of the ritual entailed creating a spiritual anchor, that would tether their spirits t this plain of existance. One of the ideas behind the existance of ghosts is that they are tied to a given place or object and this is what prevents their spirits from crossing over. The Hosok for better better or worse anchored their spirits to their homeworld. So I guess if you blew up the planet, their anchor would be destroyed and their souls would be cast adrift. Those of the "reborn" that leave the homeworld to go elsewhere usually take a part of the planet with them. It may not do any good, but it is beleived that if they are too far from the homeworld, their soul would not be able to find its way back to the anchor before crossing over. By taking along a pice of the planet (soil a rock, whatever) it is hoped that they also carry a piece of the spiritual anchor. Love this idea, but again, I don't get it. How does this work? The spiritual anchor ties them to the planet. It does not let them pass on. So for the most part the entire planet is haunted, by the souls of the Hosok (at least those that took part in the ritual).
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Post by CELS on Nov 1, 2004 11:25:45 GMT -5
My main concern (though I once again point out that I like the idea) is that I don't understand the 'spirit' thing. In 40k, all 'magic' is typically explained with the warp. Whether a person can shoot fireballs, use telepathy or telekinesis, or animate the dead, it is done by drawing powers from the warp. And when you have mystical entities in the physical realm, such as daemons, ghosts, possessed and what not, these things are often infused with warp stuff, which is why you see daemons bleeding multi-coloured flames of warp energy and such.
So... what is a Hosok 'spirit'? Is it similar to a daemon in principle?
Sorry, I just get nervous when people introduce concepts such as ghosts, spirits and magic without tying it to the warp. In 40k, as I see it, there is no magic that isn't directly connected to the warp.
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Post by Destecado on Nov 12, 2004 15:31:20 GMT -5
So... what is a Hosok 'spirit'? Is it similar to a daemon in principle? Actually this touches on the metaphysical question of what any races spirits really are. Before I go down that road though, let us draw the comparison between the Hosok spirits and those of the eldar, be it in the infinity circuit or for exodites, part of the world spirit. In either case, the eldar tie their spirits to this plain of existance via spirit stones. These serve as their spiritual anchor to this reality. If they were not so anchored, they would float of into the warp to be devoured by Slaanesh. The Hosok instead of relying on spirit stones used their planet as a spiritual anchor in order to stop their spirits from floating off into the warp and disipating. Is it not possible that all spirits originate in the warp, but gravitate to realities where some of them become trapped in physical form or willingly take on physical form...depeding on your view pont? Life and death for the hosok differs from how we as humans would view it. There are many levels of death. One can be dead physically (deprived of a physical form), but still be considered alive. "True" death only occurs at the disipation of the spirit. The Hosok recognize that the physical form is not only maleable, but an illusion. It serve the purpose of acting as an anchor for the true self to reality. If the spirit loses its anchor, it will lose its grip on reality and be cast onto the warp, where it may disipate. Spirits of strong enough will can continue even without physical forms. They are also able to manifest at will back into reality (although such hosok must then roll for instability like any warp entity) or can posses another being. Such Hosok are said to have transcended death. The Hosok do not fear loss of physical form as others would. What they do fear is loss of their anchor to reality. The idea of an afterlife, there is only existance and nothingness. This is the reason that ritual was enacted when the remaining Hosok commited suicide. Losing their bodies was of little consiquence to them, as long as they had some other form of anchor to tether them to reality. If we are tying them to the Aoideans, this is where the schism emerged. the Aoideans were intentionally giving up their physicallity to return to the warp without a link to this reality. The Hosok saw this as maddnes. To follow such a path migt lead to unbeing and the end of self. You could say that the Hosok were afraid to take this leap (of faith). They therefore turned their backs on their bretheren and left to find their own way in the universe.
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Post by CELS on Nov 13, 2004 8:56:48 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that in 40k, spirit=soul=warp presence. If there's something 'super natural' that can't be explained with science, then it must be explained with the warp. Hence, there are no sorcerors in 40k that don't draw on the warp for powers, and there are no spirits that aren't closely connected to the warp.
Otherwise, Warhammer 40,000 becomes 100% fantasy, and that's not something I agree with (despite Kage's objections that it's already fantasy)
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Post by Destecado on Nov 13, 2004 9:08:05 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that in 40k, spirit=soul=warp presence. If there's something 'super natural' that can't be explained with science, then it must be explained with the warp. Hence, there are no sorcerors in 40k that don't draw on the warp for powers, and there are no spirits that aren't closely connected to the warp. Otherwise, Warhammer 40,000 becomes 100% fantasy, and that's not something I agree with (despite Kage's objections that it's already fantasy) Ok...I'm not sure what your getting at. The Hosok do draw their energy from the warp, but they fear being cast upon it without an anchor. I'm not trying to say they draw their power from some other arcane source.
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Post by CELS on Nov 13, 2004 9:22:18 GMT -5
Oh. Well... I don't know how to make it any clearer, really, but I shall try Spirits = souls = warp presence. Therefore, if the Hosoks' spirits are found in the material realm, they are effectively daemons (sentient souls without bodies) who appear in the material realm. The problem, of course, is that just as the Aoideans and chaos daemons can only stay in the physical realm for a while, so would the Hosok. The presence of the Hosoks' spirits in the material realm cannot be explained by the fluff as we know it. It seems magical, because it is not done with the help of the warp. In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, all supernatural phenomenons are explained with the warp. Ghosts are warp entities who are not fully able to materialise in the material realm, magic fireballs are actually warp energy, etc. It's like... in Star Wars, there is no magic. People have special powers, true, but this is because they draw on 'the force'. There are no special powers in Star Wars, to my knowledge, that are entirely magical and not connected to the force at all. Same thing. I hope I'm being just a little clearer now If you can't explain it with science, and if it does work because of the warp, then it doesn't work in Warhammer 40,000. If a guy can pull a rabbit out of his hat in Warhammer 40,000, it is done by teleportation with the power of the warp, not magic. If a 'spirit' is trapped in an abandoned house in Warhammer 40,000, then it is a warp entity, not a magical ghost.
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Post by Destecado on Nov 13, 2004 10:15:26 GMT -5
Spirits = souls = warp presence. Therefore, if the Hosoks' spirits are found in the material realm, they are effectively daemons (sentient souls without bodies) who appear in the material realm. The problem, of course, is that just as the Aoideans and chaos daemons can only stay in the physical realm for a while, so would the Hosok.[/quote] You are of course referring to warp entities manifesting in the physical realm without the benefit of a host body. If they are possesing a host, they do not suffer the same instability. The host body serves as an anchor to the physical realm or if you use the example of the enslavers, it serves as a conduit. The presence of the Hosoks' spirits in the material realm cannot be explained by the fluff as we know it. It seems magical, because it is not done with the help of the warp. Actually it is done by tapping on the energies of the warp to create the spiritual anchor. Also saying that the spirits of the Hosok can not be explained by the fluff is incorrect. This is why I posted the analogy about the eldar spirit stones. The actual mechanics of spirit stones are never truly explained, yet they allow the spirits of eldar to be stored rather than being forced out into the warp to be devoured by Slannesh. Then there is the armor of the Pheonix Lords, which not only retains the spirit of the original bearer of the armor, but also the souls of all that have worn it since. With regards to how the Hosok are reborn into human bodies, it is merely a form of specialized possesion that targets the human young before birth. In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, all supernatural phenomenons are explained with the warp. Ghosts are warp entities who are not fully able to materialise in the material realm, magic fireballs are actually warp energy, etc. I dn't disagree. It's like... in Star Wars, there is no magic. People have special powers, true, but this is because they draw on 'the force'. There are no special powers in Star Wars, to my knowledge, that are entirely magical and not connected to the force at all. And if I rememebr correctly, the emperor was able to be reborn into a clone body or some such in one of the novels. If you can't explain it with science, and if it does work because of the warp, then it doesn't work in Warhammer 40,000. If a guy can pull a rabbit out of his hat in Warhammer 40,000, it is done by teleportation with the power of the warp, not magic. If a 'spirit' is trapped in an abandoned house in Warhammer 40,000, then it is a warp entity, not a magical ghost. Yes they are warp entities. We are getting bogged down in terms. There is no great conspiracy to have the hosok use some other form of "magic" to accomplish their goals. All of this is accomplished by use of warp energies. I hope that the explanations that I have given above show that this is nothing new being added to the fluff, but just a different application of things already present within the fluff.
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Post by CELS on Nov 13, 2004 12:15:18 GMT -5
I'm really not trying to be difficult here, Destecado, honest! And I am glad to hear that you're not trying to introduce a whole new concept of spirits or some such. I always wanted an explanation for why Aoideans would appear around the ruins of their ancient empire. Previously, I've been toying with the thought of them needing to visit their ruins to give birth to new Aoideans, but that was quickly abandoned. Would it work if the Aoideans left behind great ruins, which later worked like spirit stones for the Hosok? It would just make sense in that the Eldar are dependant on their spirit stones to 'escape' the warp, so the Aoideans/ Hosok should need some device as well. The ruins might be found far underground, of course, so you could have forests, old houses or other locations that were 'cursed with Hosok spirits' from the fact that there were Aoidean / Hosok ruins far underneath.
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