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Post by Destecado on Apr 6, 2004 15:23:08 GMT -5
Sad to say, what you done is pretty much re-envision the Tau as fish people. The concept is not half bad, but it needs to be delved into deeper and be approached from a different manner. Rather than setting up a government of 5 divergent groups with a group similar to the ethereals leading them, what about having a society based on anarchy? I'm not refering to a state of lawlessness that leads to civil disorder, more a lack of any central governmental authority. This would be a society based around voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups. Each individual is his brothers keeper. those that try to sponge off of society are turned out. Productivity is shared with those who need it beacuse they will in turn share of what they have. Actions taken by the society as a whole are reached by consensus. Not everyone would be happy with the descision, but it benefits the greater amount of those involved. this touches on the concept of the greater good, but eliminates the external need for the ethereal caste. For more info on anarchism click on the following link. dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/kropotkin/britanniaanarchy.htmlIt also eliminates the entire caste system. Any individual in the society can be what ever they wish to be. If the society needs farmers, the individuals can become that. If at later times, they are not needed, they can take up a new profession. The concept that you have for an ice covered world with oceans underneath is a good one, opens up some problems. What you are describing for the most part is the Jovian moon IO. It is theorized that life might exist under the miles of ice in a liquid ocean. With that amount of ice, little or no sunlight would pentrate. Without light, there would be no need for eyes. Most of their sences would be based around touch, hearing, smell. If you wish to take a different tact, perhaps they produce their own light. Maybe the race is bio luminecent. either way, you have to consider the evolutionary path they took, since they really would not have access to plants requiring oxygen. There is also the problem of warmth. At that depth, with no sunlight and all of the ice, things will wind up being pretty cold. Most life would probably exist around termal vents on the bottom of the ocean. You may want to take a look at the following link about creatures found at the bottom of terestrial oceans for some ideas on the Atlantan evolution and biology. commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/dlc-me/zoo/microbes/riftiasym.html
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 6, 2004 15:40:17 GMT -5
Re: weaponry...
Antimatter doesn't work that way...sorry...
'Small' antimatter weaponry wouldn't work in anything other than vacuum; you'd end up with more antimatter disintigrating in the air than hitting the target. Large cannon-type weapons are a possibility, possibly using some sort of sonic primer to void a column of air in front of the antiparticle beam...
Ahem. Going off on one a bit, there.
Any physics-y questions though; I'll give it a go.
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Post by Destecado on Apr 6, 2004 15:53:42 GMT -5
Another comment on the biology of the race, perhaps you could have them be highly mutable. They should perhaps be able to change for the job or the function that they need to carry out. As indicated in Jurassic Park, there are some toad species that actually change theri sex if the need arises.
In their natural state, I do not see this race as having legs or arms. Perhaps more lie an amorphous jelly fish like state, they almost have a polymorphic quality that allows them to emulate things around them. This is not to say that they are shape changers able to completely emulate any object.....although, that does open an interesting possibility as to where the Imperium actual gets the drug Polymorphine from.
Imagine if it is extruded from the protoplasm of this race. It would be a good reason why the Imperium might be looking for them. Perhaps they founf one of their colonies. Since they don't communicate by speaking and their culture would be so alien to the Imperium, they might just see them as another animal or alien race to be exploited for the greater glory of the Imperium.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 6, 2004 16:13:44 GMT -5
TO DESTACADO: I think you may be misinterpreting this, though I may just have misstated. They are in no way intended to be Tau-y. There is no caste system, it's more physical. They are evolved to fit their niche in the oceans of their homeworld, and unite as a race for larger things. The Tau enforce the csate system for psychology (sort of). Not sure what you mean by the "Ethereal Caste" idea, they don't have one. The Oceanmasters/Seamasters are not a group of their own, they are elected from the ranks of the people they watch over. And another difference is their general psyche. The Tau are slightly benevolent in their own eyes, trying to spread their ways to the lesser-educated, primitive races of the galaxy. The Atlanteans, on the other hand, are inherently a bit arrogant due to the mission they were bred for, ensuring that the galaxy continues for as long as possible. All other races are less important in the great scheme of things, the Fahniwahn or Eternal Destiny in their language, the need for balance to extend into perpetuality. Physical: OK, major misinterpetation here. The ice-covered world is NOT their homeworld, they evolved on a more temperate world in a different, yet-unnamed sector within the Imperium. The ice-covered world is merely their outpost in the Anargo Sector. jelly bodies: interesting, but not what my imagery has for them. Excellent ideas, though....perhaps someone could develop a race with these traits...... TO SOJURNER: Unfortunately, I have no clue how antimatter or anything else works. The guns were originally laser beam weapons, till someone pointed out that these would be useless underwater. Currently they are in limbo, a sort of gun that shoots high energy that interfere with the bonds between molecules. Any help or ideas you could give?
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 7, 2004 5:46:13 GMT -5
You'd have to make up some sort of weirdy science to get that to work, I think.
Possibly have them work using a similar principle to these 'telescopes' you mention? It seems that this warp-stuff can bypass the material universe while still taking a direct path through it, so possibly some form of device that resonates the warp within the target, causing its molecules to disintigrate as they pass through innumerable microscopic rifts...
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 7, 2004 16:32:02 GMT -5
That'd work! One of their guns is already a "warp cannon" (sends what it hits on a short jaunt through the warp), so their basic weapons could use this on a very smaller scale, say by opening a microscopic warp rift where it hits like you said. it'd be imagined that ordinary matter coming into sudden, violent contact with warpspace, er, well, matter? would be unpleasant. This works too with my general theme of the Atlanteans being skilled in manipulating the warp in general, perhaps mastering short-range calculated jumps...BFG anyone?
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 8, 2004 5:34:49 GMT -5
I'm thinking that whatever it is 'perforates' the warp rather than tearing it, making many many atom-sized rifts rather than large ones, which quickly close up but cause catastrophic damage to...well, anything.
This could cause vast damage to any solid structure, vehicle, or anything else you chose to shoot it at; causing the thing to crumple in on itself as its matter is disintigrated from within. Psychic shielding of any sort would be completely immune, however. Maybe this is their weakness; their heavy weapons can't harm ships, Titans or anything else that has any level of psychic protection?
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 8, 2004 5:56:53 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to sabotage any development i do in the future.......
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 16:20:34 GMT -5
Glad to see that people have raised some concerns with regards to the 'merman' imagery. Had a bit of worry with that one myself... that and a way to phrase it correctly is one of those reasons that I hadn't mentioned something for a while. With regards to the location of the race, it's pretty easy to shift them out of the subsectors... Kage
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 14, 2004 18:16:23 GMT -5
"mermen"?
Not sure exactly what you mean, but has it been remedied in the discussion so far?
And moving them out of the subsector would be GREAT. Can you do it, as it solves a lot of headaches.
P.S. To destacado: Another point (well, counter, really - sorry) to your Tau analogy is their connection to the warp. The Tau are simply immune, their warp presence is too small. The Atlanteans have a normal warp presence, but the subconcious link between the race acts as a shield, as any demon is to weak to effectively possess an entire race at once.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 18:40:27 GMT -5
"mermen"? Not sure exactly what you mean, but has it been remedied in the discussion so far? To my knowledge, no. I'm unsure as to what motivated them into a social/technolgoical society and why they would have adopted the form that they have on a primarily water world... Kage
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 15, 2004 5:57:23 GMT -5
Well, a lot of it was (in the beginning) the relationship to the Old Ones (though I know how much everybody here hates them:)). They were created to keep the Old One's dream of a functioning galaxy alive, so were bipedal for movement on land, and given the intelligence necessary to be powerful. But recently, I've come up with a new look on it. What if they're not what's needed. in their eyes at least? The Old Ones/(Slann?) were dying off, fighting the C'tan, and never could have predicted the Fall of the Eldar, the arrival of the Tyranids, or that the C'tan would rise again, or the rapid expansion of humanity and all the trouble that caused. So they're kind of floundering, trying all the harder to prove that they can complete the mission set out for them, which may make them even more arrogant/conceited/whatever, as any other race should not stand in their way, since it's for the balance of all life (not the puny Greater Good concept of the Tau, for good must come with bad, etc.). And they are not as old as the War in Heaven, though they were "conceived" at that time. The OO formed them and then, well, stored them away on a water world to await the time when the C'tan were gone and they could develop in peace. This period of waiting allowed the planet's environment to work its changes on them, creating the physical differences among subspecies that I have today. This solves several problems that are present in previous ASP discussions: 1)Powerful alien race :Well, the Eldar are powerful (dying, yes, but still powerful) and we've got a funtioning colony of them. The watchpost idea keeps their actual influence very minor in the Anargo Sector. 2)"mermen" imagery: The weakest link here, but they look that way as they were created, not eveolved from protoplasmic microbes. The evolution set in after their basic form was determined. 3) The uncertainty of their usefulness adds a bit of character, and help dull the image of "super-powerful warriors who do whatever they want saying it's good". 4) Several people, I think Kage in particular, have shown resistance to having another War-in-Heaven era race. This solves that to a degree while keeping their tie to the old ones. They'd probable be only about as old as humanity, but since they started at a pre-formed stage and were naturally much smarter, they developed at a proportionate rate. 5) Anything else I need to address to make them kosher?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 15, 2004 7:14:50 GMT -5
1)Powerful alien race :Well, the Eldar are powerful (dying, yes, but still powerful) and we've got a funtioning colony of them. The watchpost idea keeps their actual influence very minor in the Anargo Sector. The eldar are also an established race. If you check out the various descriptions of alien races in this board you will note that the greater majority of them are for races that are "highly advanced" or "highly evolved". I don't find this surprising. After all, standard GW imagery is for a depressingly decaying society that doesn't really know what is happening with their technologies or their societies or, indeed, that of the outside of the universe... The tendency of people who are fond of any particular race - me and the eldar, for example - is to over-represent them. You will notice that I have been resistant to making them too significant a presence... "mermen" imagery: The weakest link here, but they look that way as they were created, not eveolved from protoplasmic microbes. The evolution set in after their basic form was determined. So they're gengineered to be land-forms with bilateral symmetry but, well, they're subsequently 'stored' in a water world? One which has a significant influence upon their "land form" so that they develop traits for specific oceans...? It just seems a bit of a dubious train of logic... Land-form gengineering --> aquatic storage --> racial differentiation by environmental specialisation not equal dissolution of land-form engineering over ~60,000,000 years... Several people, I think Kage in particular, have shown resistance to having another War-in-Heaven era race. Only because it is a tad too GW, trying to bring thiings into the 'fluff' but including the latest 'flash-bang' situation that they've come up to shoe-horn their latest race... The Anargo sector, at present, has "enough" reference to the War in Heaven, though unfocussed. They'd probable be only about as old as humanity... End of the War in Heaven was ~60,000,000 years ago. Emergence of humanity was ~120,000 years ago (in 40k). The main problem, however, is the "Merman" thing. To me it makes no sense whatsoever... to me. Indeed, I've only seen one aquatic RPG race that has made sense, at least in a form: the Schalli of the Traveller universe... So what am I saying? They have some potential, but obviously not in any subsector that defines the sphere of direct influence for the Imperium. With that said it is pretty easy to shift the planet... But there are still some problems with regards to the race itself. Less that they were engineered by the Old Ones - even though this is once again over-reference to the War in Heaven timeline - and more to the fact that said engineering doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Again, that's for me... I'm sure that with sufficient "selling" that something can be done. Kage:eyebrows:
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 15, 2004 8:08:05 GMT -5
My opinion in short:
The War In Heaven sucks. I hate the whole concept; C'Tan, Eldar demigods, Slann, Enslavers, Necrontyr...
GW should have just left them alone. Giving the galaxy some great big grand plan infers a conclusion of some kind. And we don't want that.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 15, 2004 9:41:48 GMT -5
I'd have to agree with you on the War in Heaven timeline if for no other reason than it brings into play the whole "physical manifestation of the gods" which is something that I've always found to be extremely tenuous. That and the fact that it extends back 60My! If you've ever seen M.v.S.' "40k prehistory" document you will see how getting the timeline to work is glitchy at best. Huge assumptions are made that are not followed through, etc. However, it is a fantastic read! But that's kind of OffT at the moment.
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