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Post by ZoomDog on Dec 24, 2003 2:06:27 GMT -5
Before we get started on the "social, economic and political structure of the Necrons in the Anargo Sector" (should be interesting ), we need to decide to what extent they will be included, if at all. Is there a tombworld present? If not, is there a minor Necron structure hidden somewhere in the sector? How active are the Necrons; are they raiding nearby worlds or still completely dormant? Personally, I'm for the presence of a Tombworld, but one that is only just awakening. The Necrons within are recovering from their sixty million year sleep, and thus have not launched any major raids on Imperial worlds yet. Of course, I may be a little biased in wanting my favourite race in the sector . What do you all think?
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 24, 2003 6:02:34 GMT -5
I vote for the Ordo Xenos realising they're there before they awake, and actually doing something beforehand.
It would make an interesting change from the Imperium running around like headless chickens.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 24, 2003 6:55:54 GMT -5
Because of the way that the subsectors were positioned, perhaps as pointed out on Portent by Zoom (IIRC) we should make use of this fact? There is a wide open space in the centre of the sector, bounded coreward and spinward by blackholes... Why not exploit this? Furthermore it would also allow integration into the 'story' of the Anargo Sector. One other thing that came up was that "currently" a Rogue Trader (note the capitals - this is an individual who maintains a tribuneship from the senatorum imperialis) fleet is on its way to Anargo to explore these long-hidden areas. In part a political move which "lets the darkness of ignorance be pushed back in the Name and Light of the Emperor" but also one that is purely pragmatic given the increasing presence of the 'wily ork warlord's empire' which essentially creates a 'war on two fronts'. This event also motivates many of the 'rogue traders' (note small case; these are individuals whose 'letter' comes from sector or subsector Imperial Commanders) as well as other members of the classis civiles to explore an area that has long since been seen as off-limits... This could also be a point where it would be feasible to introduce CELS' Aoideans if it is done carefully. With regards to the specific questions raised by Zoom, I believe the agreement would be that there was one tombworld, all but at the centre of the sector (now, at least). I would think that it is best at the moment for them to be dormant, though it's up for grabs just what surrounds them (i.e. human 'empires' that have not yet been integrated into the Imperium? alien empires?)... One thing that I'm relatively sure on is the creation of the 'Pale', bastardising Irish history and mythology again, a common feature for the eldar. At present this is an amorphous concept, but will be thought of as generally an area of 'containment' for the tombworld linked with 'sensors' to detect their awakening, etc. Thoughts on this as always would be welcome, including saying that it is inappropriate (although you'll need a good argument!). Kage
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Post by ZoomDog on Dec 24, 2003 11:40:29 GMT -5
Two problems with this. Firstly, how did the Imperium find them without waking them up? As far as I know, every incident so far has been an AdMech team cracking open an ancient pyramid, and getting themselves wiped out. Second, if they do find the TombWorld before its inhabitants awake, then its a simple case of Exterminatus, and no more Necrons. Do we really want that? (well, I don't The Imperium wouldn't really need a fleet to contain the Necrons though, especially if they're still dormant. It could well be a restricted zone, but maintaining a garrison seems pointless. I like the idea of the Rogue Trader been sent to explore the area though If it was fully dormant, then the whole 'haunted area' space would not have happened. Unless the Necrons have some sort of automated defences which take out any ships that get too close. I like this idea. One possibility would be that the Sensors have recently (within the past few years) detected Necron activity starting to pick up. This would place the Sector in a 'plot hook rich' environment; the Eldar debating what to do (flee the area, get Imperial help, etc), the possibility of raids on Imperial worlds, and the IG having to divert some of their forces from the Fortress sub-sector to contain/attack the Necrons.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 24, 2003 14:17:05 GMT -5
I think that the rather obvious response is that they have not found them thus far. With the caveat being that the chances are the Necrons would survive the exterminatus for rather obvious reasons. Of course, it would be a different version of that but, then again, that would likely wake up the pesky little beggers. I was not suggesting that the 'threat' there was the Necrons, or at least the one that the Imperium knew about. Well, that was the idea... it also motivates the classis civiles into a bit more activity. First off note the mention of CELS' Aodieans. Secondly the 'haunted space' thing - again, I'm against this explanation specifically - does not need to be ascribed to the Necrons. Perhaps something more original and, for me, interesting...? It could be something as simple as weird warp currents, temporal inversions or whatever. That is indeed a possibility. LMAO... the difference between the RPG side of things and the wargame are going to be interesting. In RPG terms the eldar are on equal footing, more or less, with the Necrons! Which, again, ties into the reason for the Rogue Trader being sent. It's not a case of pacifying the area of Necron activity, but laying claim to a 'dodgy area' of space... Kage
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Post by CELS on Dec 27, 2003 18:52:58 GMT -5
Oooh... What is this 'Pale' concept? Never heard of it. I'm kinda torn on deciding the state of the Necrons, myself. For the wargaming side of the project, it would definitely be best if the Necrons were awake or awakening (woken by the naive Rogue Trader perhaps?) Disregarding that, I must say that it would make a nice change if the Ordo Xenos knew of the Necrons before they awoke, but perhaps realising the impossibility of destroying the tombworld before the Necrons had awoken. Choosing to start preparing their defences instead, the leaders of Anargo called in a Rogue Trader to "let the darkness of ignorance be pushed back in the Name and Light of the Emperor", and thus buy themselves more time. I am very excited by the possibilities of having such an important location as the center of our sector, and trying to subtly demonstrate that it is no coincidence that this area is so empty. Also, it's nice to see that the Aoideans haven't been forgotten. Trying to tie these in with the Necrons will be difficult though, since I got the impression that another ancient race was not wanted and the Necrons have been dormant for sixty million years... I'm confused though, because I'm not sure if you intend this mysterious, 'haunted' area of space to be a product of a lot of coincidents (strange warp currents, a tomb worlds, Aoidean ghosts, strange lost human empires, who just all happened to be in this area of space) or if you want to somehow connect all this... I know Kage doesn't like conspiracy theories, but just throwing a long list of mysteries into an area of space just to make things interesting doesn't appeal to me.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 28, 2003 8:42:47 GMT -5
What is this 'Pale' concept? Never heard of it. Something that I plagerised on the spot... Erm, sorry, integrated. Seriously, however, the Pale idea comes from a number of sources. First thing that springs to mind is from the Patricia Kenneally Morrison books on the Keltiad where it is a technomantic (magical and technological) shield which prevents enemy ships from entering into Keltic territory... In a similar vein the Tir na n'Og sourcebook for the Shadowrun RPG includes almost exactly the same concept... The concept also turns up in the 'realistic' Athurian game, Pendragon in the Ireland Sourcebook... Regardless of the source it might be applicable here and tie into a number of the features originally mentioned on Portent including an overt reference to the 'haunted' or 'mysterious' setup of the sector. (I wasn't originally keen on this latter part given the fact that it was meant to be the 'average' sector, something which has changed although requiring only a slight shift in emphasis.) For the wargaming side of the project, it would definitely be best if the Necrons were awake or awakening (woken by the naive Rogue Trader perhaps?) It really depends on how the 'awakening' is handled and the ramifications of that awakening. Remember that while I think the Necrons are incredibly powerful, I don't attribute them the god-like status (before you even get to the C'tan!) that others do... With that in mind I don't think that it would be best to explain the awakening with the Rogue Trader. Perhaps one of the 'other human empires' that exist in the core accidentally tripped the switch and have started the avalanche as it were. If the Imperium even got a hint of this (perhaps from the semi-legal activities of the rogue traders) it would offer numerous reasons to send in the Tribune/Rogue Trader... Disregarding that, I must say that it would make a nice change if the Ordo Xenos knew of the Necrons before they awoke... Information on the Necrons is, now, relatively common place even if they don't know tons of background information on them. They know of their rough appearance, tactics, and the difficulties in dealing with them... If we go with the pre-Rogue Trader, non-Imperial contact as initiating the awakening, then it is entirely possible that the ordo xenos would get to know about it in the same way that the Imperium got to know about it... Of course, the size of the Rogue Trader's fleet is going to be limited but from a wargaming perspective (in terms of the campaign) this is perhaps very interesting, i.e. offering a total points value for the Rogue Trader fleet and then using that to 'invade' the centre... But that's a subject for the wargaming thread. Choosing to start preparing their defences instead, the leaders of Anargo called in a Rogue Trader to "let the darkness of ignorance be pushed back in the Name and Light of the Emperor", and thus buy themselves more time. The Rogue Trader comes with a Tribuneship from the senatorum imperialis. I'm rather keen on the fact that it isn't a lowly rogue trader and it shows that the Imperium can react centrally but, also, with the relatively small size of the Rogue Trader fleet it also shows the limitations on the extent of their reaction. I am very excited by the possibilities of having such an important location as the center of our sector, and trying to subtly demonstrate that it is no coincidence that this area is so empty. And I freely admit that this was not something that appealed at first but... well, it's nice to be able to show that you can change your mind (the you being me, there!)... However, I am also very keen that the Necrons are not seen as the soul nemesis at the centre of the sector or, even, that the centre be defined by various 'threats'. For RPG exploration purposes as well much of it should be 'mysteries'... hence it is more than likely also going to be the location for the eldar craftworld colony even though a perfect high-tech world exists on the edge of the sector (which will then become available for an interesting high-tech race)... Also, it's nice to see that the Aoideans haven't been forgotten. They were never forgotten... it was just hard finding a niche for them. The idea of 'guardians at the gate' is rather appealing, especially since the 'gate' could have a number of purposes. Trying to tie these in with the Necrons will be difficult though, since I got the impression that another ancient race was not wanted and the Necrons have been dormant for sixty million years... Not as hard as you think... but only if you want every one to know about them. I know Kage doesn't like conspiracy theories... You're wrong in that: I love conspiracy theories. It's just that all the ones you see cropping up on Portent are lame beyond belief. but just throwing a long list of mysteries into an area of space just to make things interesting doesn't appeal to me. Nor I. But I'm also keen that it does not solely revolve around the Necrons. Kage
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Post by ZoomDog on Dec 28, 2003 20:07:35 GMT -5
Ah, didn't realise that. That certainly spices things up But why has the Imperium waited so long to do this? Lack of resources? Warp storms only just cleared up? Agreed. Also agreed. If they knew the Tombworld was there, wouldn't they want to avoid the area until they were ready? Sending in the RT just increases the chances of the Necrons waking up. Naturally it would be best to connect it all, we just need a good idea How about this, a minor rogue trader was exploring the area, and found the tombworld. He recognised it for what it was, and told the Ordo Xenos. The Ordo, recognising the danger, started building up defences and called in the Rogue Trader to come explore the surrounding area to prepare for the extermination of the TombWorld. Before he arrives though, someone else (other rt, minor human race, possibly the Aoideans ) accidently wakes them up. This way the Imperium is still surprised, by isn't caught totally unprepared.
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Post by CELS on Dec 28, 2003 21:42:47 GMT -5
Two options look good to me at the moment.
1) There is no big mystery or secret about the centre of the Anargo sector. It just hasn't been colonised because there didn't seem to be much of interest in that area of space before. This was all changed when some explorators/rogue traders ventured deep inside this space and found lots of uncharted systems, what might be a tomb world and possibly a lost human empire or two. The Eldar aren't too worried about the Necrons, and the Aoideans have no connection to them at all. Or, as ZoomDog suggested, the late colonisation is blamed solely on lack of resources. The Ork wars have lasted for millennia, and finally some Rogue Trader from another sector is sent to explore this area of space.
2) That this area of space has not been colonised by the Imperium is largely due to the subtle manipulations of the Eldar (and Aoideans?), who have set in motion great things whenever the silly humans were about to find the tomb world and ruin everything. The discovery of the tomb world wouldn't really be an enormous and catastrophical threat to the Sector, but it would definitely ruin the Eldars' mood and possibly lead to the destruction of their colony/ craftworld, which is why the Eldar have gone and meddled. How would the Eldar manipulate the Imperium without them knowing it? Well, trying to stop them with an open war would probably just increase Imperial interest (they'd love a chance to kill some Eldar), so perhaps the Eldar would try to stimulate the fighting between Ork and Man, or even help the Imperium in a crusade against chaos cults, etc
Something like that, anyway. I'm all for connecting all of these strange things, but it would be perfect if we could try to avoid some secret that would threaten the entire Anargo sector.
As for the Aoideans... guardians at the gate sounds good, and it would be in their nature to try and keep such forces as the Necrons at bay. But how would the Imperium react to this? Surely creatures resembling ghosts or daemons coming with warnings would smell of Chaos, and someone would suggest that this was all a Chaos scheme which must be countered, and thus the warning is ignored. Perhaps the Aoideans would take a more active role in guarding the tomb world, sending any exploring ships off course and even being hostile if the humans were too stupid and greedy.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 28, 2003 22:23:38 GMT -5
But why has the Imperium waited so long to do this? Lack of resources? Warp storms only just cleared up? A good question. Given the balance of the 'fluff' on the Imperium in the 40k universe one would imagine that it could be explained by a number of phenomenon... Lack of desire or necessity? Lack of resources? Forgetfulness, at least in the bureaucratic sense? If they knew the Tombworld was there, wouldn't they want to avoid the area until they were ready? Sending in the RT just increases the chances of the Necrons waking up. This might be one reason why overt Inquisitorial intervention might be inappropriate to start with... Furthemore it illustrates that the various 'hands' of the Imperium do not always act in concert with each other. (A bit harder to describe given that I have stated that the RT is acting upon a Tribuneship from the senatorum imperialis! ) How about this, a minor rogue trader was exploring the area, and found the tombworld. He recognised it for what it was, and told the Ordo Xenos. The Ordo, recognising the danger, started building up defences and called in the Rogue Trader to come explore the surrounding area to prepare for the extermination of the TombWorld. I would say that this puts too much emphasis on the Inquisition and ignores the other aspects of the Imperium. Furthermore it does little to emphasis the porous nature of the Imperium... There is no big mystery or secret about the centre of the Anargo sector. It just hasn't been colonised because there didn't seem to be much of interest in that area of space before. The only problem is that the chances are there are lots of interesting potentials in there... one would only have to look through the Anargo database to realise this. (I swiftly add that I have not done this but the chances are that it is so.) That this area of space has not been colonised by the Imperium is largely due to the subtle manipulations of the Eldar... Depends on how you might view this, I suppose... ...who have set in motion great things whenever the silly humans were about to find the tomb world and ruin everything... This type of thing would have to be incorporated into the 'history' of the Anargo sector. I do not say that this is a bad thing, only point out to the fact that this would have to be done. ...but it would definitely ruin the Eldars' mood and possibly lead to the destruction of their colony/ craftworld, which is why the Eldar have gone and meddled... In terms of a future storyline, yes it is a possibility... On a personal note if the eldar colony world goes then the personal impact upon the rest of the sector is going to be significant. This is where we are going to jar between the RPG/wargame and 'fluff'/wargame side of things. There are two very different approaches here, which is why the integration of teh two is interesting in the first place. How would the Eldar manipulate the Imperium without them knowing it? Not too hard given the whole prophecy malarky. I point people to the Goodkind Sword of Truth books and his (her?) approach to prophecy. Herbert's Dune is also a good thing to read on this subject... ...but it would be perfect if we could try to avoid some secret that would threaten the entire Anargo sector. Of course. As for the Aoideans... guardians at the gate sounds good, and it would be in their nature to try and keep such forces as the Necrons at bay. Why? But how would the Imperium react to this? Fear and ignorance... fear and ignorance. Kage
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Post by ZoomDog on Dec 28, 2003 22:34:09 GMT -5
It seems unlikely that the Imperium wouldn't explore and record the details of an area of space because it didn't seem that interesting. How do they know it isn't interesting if they haven't explored it?
Perhaps they have a couple of small pirate fleets patrolling the area, taking out any Imperial ships that come exploring. This would further the Imperial superstition about the mysterious space.
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Post by CELS on Dec 29, 2003 7:16:30 GMT -5
Remember that the space within the boundaries of the Imperium has not yet been fully explored. There are still some patches with uncharted territories. Or at least, that's what you guys told me on Portent If the Eldar did attack Imperial ships that came too close, they would have to be VERY careful that these ships didn't have time to warn the rest of the fleet about Eldar ships. If the presence of these Eldar became known, there would doubtless be trouble. Kage, you're going to have to explain the 'whole prophecy malarky' as I am very unfamiliar with Goodkind and the Dune universe. As for the Aoideans, I'm still going with the idea that they were driven to transcend into the warp by warmonging aliens. Though this can no longer be the Necrons, it will still be a similarly ruthless race (perhaps Orks). Being such noble spirits, the Aoideans would not want others to suffer the same fate as themselves. But I assume you're looking for a far more selfish reason, aren't you, Kage? Well... how about if there are human empires near the tombworld that worship the Aoideans, and thus the Aoideans are keen on keeping other races from messing with the tombworld because it would lead to the destruction of the human empires. They'd also try to keep the Imperium from rediscovering these human empires, because they would impose the Imperial creed on the human empires and thus stop the worship of the Aoideans. No worship of the Aoideans, no more power. It would also be cool if the Eldar were the ones that made the Aoideans aware of the tombworld, which would serve the Eldar in keeping their nearby colony safe. If a high and mighty Rogue Trader suddenly showed up and ruined this delicate situation, I'm sure he'd earn the wrath of the Eldar (and for what it's worth, the Aoideans), not to mention that it would ultimately lead to the waking of Necrons.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 29, 2003 8:34:56 GMT -5
Remember that the space within the boundaries of the Imperium has not yet been fully explored. This would be especially reinforced with the galaxy-wide Imperium advocated by the Dark Millennia site, which I still don't agree with. But, yes, the Imperium is by default going to be incredibly porous and not as monolithic as they like to think. If the presence of these Eldar became known, there would doubtless be trouble. True, although it is difficult to actually pin down the eldar into a conflict that they don't want... Kage, you're going to have to explain the 'whole prophecy malarky' as I am very unfamiliar with Goodkind and the Dune universe. Ony that prophecy itself can be a powerful force to motivate people, whether the prophecy itself is 'true' or 'false'. Superstitious people still have a tendency of trying to comply or avoid the various parts of a prophecy as they intepret it... and with the eldar propechy can be more exacting than not. This would be a variation of the missionaria galactica (I forget if that is the 40k version or the Dune version from which the 40k is taken), except to sow the seeds of prophetic doubt, as it were. As for the Aoideans, I'm still going with the idea that they were driven to transcend into the warp by warmonging aliens... That's fine. Though this can no longer be the Necrons, it will still be a similarly ruthless race (perhaps Orks). It can be the Necrons, though would tie into the current approach of GW that everything can be ultimately put at the feet of the Necrons and/or the C'tan... Being such noble spirits, the Aoideans would not want others to suffer the same fate as themselves...But I assume you're looking for a far more selfish reason, aren't you, Kage? <grin> Yep. I don't buy the whole nobility of spirit twoddle. Makes me instantly suspicious, and I think it would be fair to say that it would make most people in the 40k universe instantly suspicious too. Well... how about if there are human empires near the tombworld that worship the Aoideans... Or how about that they are just studying the remains of the Aoideans? It would be nice and interesting if not everything was always laid down to 'gods'...? They'd also try to keep the Imperium from rediscovering these human empires, because they would impose the Imperial creed on the human empires and thus stop the worship of the Aoideans. Or study... And this would also give them a more pragmatic bent that was in keeping with the universe. It would also be cool if the Eldar were the ones that made the Aoideans aware of the tombworld, which would serve the Eldar in keeping their nearby colony safe. Perhaps... the eldar colony world is still in a somewhat fluid form, at least conceptually, so the nature of its defences, etc., are still up for discussion. If a high and mighty Rogue Trader suddenly showed up and ruined this delicate situation... Again, I would be keen that the Rogue Trader was a reaction to the situation rather than the cause of that situation... Kage
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Post by CELS on Dec 29, 2003 20:01:18 GMT -5
True, although it is difficult to actually pin down the eldar into a conflict that they don't want... Yes, but if the Eldar are defending an area to stop the humans from reaching the tombworld, that'll make it easier. Ony that prophecy itself can be a powerful force to motivate people, whether the prophecy itself is 'true' or 'false'. Superstitious people still have a tendency of trying to comply or avoid the various parts of a prophecy as they intepret it... and with the eldar propechy can be more exacting than not. Hmm, cool. It can be the Necrons, though would tie into the current approach of GW that everything can be ultimately put at the feet of the Necrons and/or the C'tan... Yes, but we're already wandering down that path with the Aoideans being the Guardian at the tombworld's gate, unless we include the selfish motive I suggested. <grin> Yep. I don't buy the whole nobility of spirit twoddle. Makes me instantly suspicious, and I think it would be fair to say that it would make most people in the 40k universe instantly suspicious too. Fair enough. I'll keep that piece of background to myself Or how about that they are just studying the remains of the Aoideans? It would be nice and interesting if not everything was always laid down to 'gods'...? How would it help the Aoideans if some people were studying them? That doesn't give them any kind of power, leaving the Aoideans with no reason to defend these worlds (or anything else, for that matter), and leaving us back to square one. I'm not saying they should be worshipped as gods, but the humans in this/these empires might think of them as 'spirits' or 'ghosts' of the universe that are best kept happy. So even though they might have their own gods, or no gods at all, they still have different forms of worship of the Aoideans. Kind of like christian people who believe in luck and fate. It's got nothing to do with the bible, but they're still wary of broken mirrors, black cats, etc Again, I would be keen that the Rogue Trader was a reaction to the situation rather than the cause of that situation... Oki dokey
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 30, 2003 10:24:33 GMT -5
Yes, but if the Eldar are defending an area to stop the humans from reaching the tombworld, that'll make it easier. Well, yes... Perhaps 'guarding' would be too strong a word for it since it pertains to the current eldar who, for the most part, seem to have neglected this side of things. Yup... and a reason to bring in the politics of the eldar. The joys of the Spider Clan... erm, but that's an aside. Yes, but we're already wandering down that path with the Aoideans being the Guardian at the tombworld's gate... I'm more inclined to suggest that they are linked to the 'mystery of the center', not that they are the 'guardians' of the Tomb World... But to be fair I'm beginning to lose track of that particularl concept... Fair enough. I'll keep that piece of background to myself Now that I think about it, however, it might be something to include. If other people react in the same way nearly everyone is going to be automatically suspicious about the Aodeans... might be a useful plot hook. <sigh; Kage loses the plot> I'm not saying they should be worshipped as gods, but the humans in this/these empires might think of them as 'spirits' or 'ghosts' of the universe that are best kept happy. That is better... It is not a form of worship, just an example of people placating what they seem to be natural forces. Far more interesting rather than them acquiring power through worship. Kage
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