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Post by CELS on May 29, 2004 8:43:54 GMT -5
I can with some certainty say that there are no 'facts' like the ones you're asking for, Kage. There may be some theories about them, but I've read a bit in reference to this in my first year of psychology, and I'm pretty sure there are no 'facts' that complex information can be exchanged genetically
This is why I've tried to emphasize the Oddboyz' aptitude for specific types of technology, rather than DNA-blueprints and all that. In other words, I prefer to look at it like the Brainboyz shaped the Oddboyz so that they'd have extra high intelligence in some areas, rather than encoding the schematics for a bolter in their DNA.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 29, 2004 10:10:06 GMT -5
So if you're forgive the rather shallow analogy, you're suggesting that Mekboyz are a bit like 'autists'... 'idiot savants'... or whatever? Kage
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Post by CELS on May 29, 2004 14:26:15 GMT -5
Yes. That could have been a really neat one-line post from me, but I guess you'd reply with a similarly neat "Why?" Well, I'm not saying that all Oddboyz are like autists. If you're familiar with autists like Rainman, who have an insane aptitude for multiplying, dividing, and the like, that would be the Sumboyz, for example. It is quite conceivable that other Oddboyz could have been given other gifts. For example, men have superior abilities over women when it comes to spatial mental tasks, such as comparing two different objects seen from two different angles. Taken to the extreme, this would be a great advantage in tasks dealing with mechanics, and thus Mekboyz should be genetically engineered to have extremely advanced spatial task abilities (parden my poor english). Of course, this doesn't explain the entirety of Oddboy variation, but it gives you an idea of what I'm basing my assumption on.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 30, 2004 0:47:00 GMT -5
So how do we go from this 'idiot savant' concept to the distinct genetic breeds of ork? How do Mekboyz have a great deal of ability in working with forcefields, for example? Kage
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Post by CELS on May 30, 2004 1:11:04 GMT -5
Are you asking about the procreation of orks, or the abilities of the Mekboyz?
On the procreation of orks, I'm not going to go there. There is so much disagreement on this amongst ork fans that there is no right answer. GW screwed this up bad. Not because I don't like how they done it, but because few else like it. Their concept might be plausible, I don't know, I'm not a scientist with expertise to judge such matters, but it makes bugger all of a difference when almost no fans like the concept.
On Mekboyz and forcefields... I don't really understand the question. The Mekboyz are far, far more intelligent than most humans when it comes to understanding of physics and mechanics, and they are thus able to invent more advanced equipment and machinery, such as forcefields. But because they are given special gifts in a few areas of 'intelligence' (there are many different forms of intelligence, as you no doubt know), their inventions are limited to forcefields, guns and teleporters, rather than medicine, potions and different types of beer and booze.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 30, 2004 1:27:27 GMT -5
...their inventions are limited to forcefields, guns and teleporters, rather than medicine, potions and different types of beer and booze. So basically they understand basic chemistry, advanced quantum mechanics and fermentation, but little else? It's all intuition... <shudder> Well, that's fair enough for now. I think that you should go into more detail about this 'compartmentalisation' in your "Codex Orkicus" and, indeed, should tackle all those juicy little things that GW don't. Otherwise what's the point? You'd just end up rephrasing established 'fluff' rather than saying anything new... But you know that already and, therefore, I'm sure that you're tackling such concepts. Anyway, back away from the Ork forum for now... Kage
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Post by zholud on May 30, 2004 2:23:20 GMT -5
So basically they understand basic chemistry, advanced quantum mechanics and fermentation, but little else? It's all intuition... <shudder> Maybe not true intuition but something else. It is hard to say how far the instinct or gene-determined abilities could go. Following the example set by CELS with two genders, we can see that it affects their abilities, both mental and physical. I don’t start any chauvinism either pro- or contra- gender differences, but there are facts that men and women differ not only by their reproduction organs but in other abilities and more important preferences. If you can have quite unusual and not ‘light’ bee body language that seems to be given by instincts. Almost all colony insects know fermentation and biochemistry better than humans do – they are able to breed specialised workers, solders, queens… from the basic eggs they have. Outcome – we know too little about genes and knowledge that can be imprinted there that saying ‘it is just impossible’ is as lame as ‘of course it is possible’. So, what we know on the basis of fluff: - There is psychic impulse that makes stuff working in intended way – see ’red uns goez fasta’
- The level of development (TL equivalent) depends on number of Orks and level of their competitors close behind. So, (a) large Waaagh! leads to creation of Gargants and forcefields. (b) Closeness to high-tech civilisation leads to mimicrying of their tech, so in less advanced worlds there are feral Orks with medieval or primitive tech.
- Orks were artificially gene-engineered.
My idea that is very vague at the moment is to play around with waargh-warp and its effects. I think about psychic beings formed in that specific warp that are genes and muses for specially attuned Meks, who receive their knowledge as kind of prophecies and enlightening.
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Post by Sojourner on May 30, 2004 5:40:09 GMT -5
Treat Orkoid instinct like that of humans for mating - every male has an instinctual reaction to the shape, movement and so on of an attractive individual (recognition of a feature) and subsequently the impulse to...ahem. (Acting upon the new stimulus). To transfer this process to Orks, the Mekboy has an acute instinct to recognise the shape of machinery and tools, and to think "oooh, make one" and then try to do so. You might say that Orks have very, very acute spatial awareness which allows them to recognise very fine aspects of a machine's operation just by observing.
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Post by CELS on May 30, 2004 9:02:52 GMT -5
So basically they understand basic chemistry, advanced quantum mechanics and fermentation, but little else? It's all intuition... <shudder> LoL! Remember the smileys when you're joking. At least, I hope you're joking... Mekboyz would have an aptitude for quantum mechanics, engineering, and... well, I don't know the different disciplines within physics and engineering. That's not to say they don't understand chemistry, of course, eventhough this is the specialty of the Brewboyz. It doesn't mean they can't really do mathematics either, eventhough this is the specialty of the autist Sumboyz. From this, I presume you haven't read my "Index Orkicus" (actually), because then you'd know I wasn't just rephrasing established fluff. Hopefully..... Yeah, I'll try to be more specific about this 'compartmentalisation' (holy crap that's a nasty word) of intelligence in my ork essay. we know too little about genes and knowledge that can be imprinted there that saying ‘it is just impossible’ is as lame as ‘of course it is possible’. YES, exactly!!! My idea that is very vague at the moment is to play around with waargh-warp and its effects. I think about psychic beings formed in that specific warp that are genes and muses for specially attuned Meks, who receive their knowledge as kind of prophecies and enlightening. Interesting. Looking forward to reading more about this. Might be cool to have two separate theories on the Ork Oddboyz, and hopefully making them transparent enough to coexist.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 30, 2004 10:29:05 GMT -5
The fact that I'm questioning indicates an open mind, however. Does that apply across the board, however? Hmmn. Kage
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Post by CELS on May 31, 2004 9:17:06 GMT -5
The fact that I'm questioning indicates an open mind, however. Does that apply across the board, however? Hmmn. LoL! I didn't say that this was something you were guilty of, did I? Indeed, the only thing I said was "Yes, exactly", so I'm curious why you wrote that in reply to my post rather than zholud's
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Post by Lordof on May 31, 2004 17:16:04 GMT -5
Well I think a good theory for Mekboyz is that they have an inate ability to quickly recognise a machine how it works and what it does.
They can then replicate the said machine and they can also see how it parts of its process can be used in other machines.
This is pretty much Meks putting 2 and 2 together on a grand scale and explains why Ork tech may seem so hodge podge a lot of the time. As something which humans may design a new process for, Orks simply put together several other parts from diferrent machines together to get the same effect but on a less effecient scale and also making it a lot more messy in design.
We can see this as otherwise we really wouldn't have Feral Orks we know and love as mek which has inate knowledge would simply start building machines.
Where as a mek with an inate knowledge of seeing how things work and how that can be used elsewhere will develop machinery over a period of time.
So once a mek starts finding advanced machine he will be able to see how they work and start building machines which use similar principles.
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Post by malika on May 31, 2004 20:52:24 GMT -5
So you're saying that eventually Orks could replicate weapons of for example the Necrons, Eldar or Tau. That would mean the Orks who fought against the Tau on the invasion of Pech might have better tech? I always wanted to start an Ork army who have looted tau stuff
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Post by Lordof on Jun 1, 2004 2:20:14 GMT -5
The Meks have an ability to understand tech and how it works yes.
But if they won't have the ability to reproduce finely crafted or highly intricate pieces such as microchips.
The Ork may be able to reproduce something along the lines of and Eldar Necron or Tau weapon but it would be built monstrously huge for very little effect.
And i don't think Tau would want to replicate Eldar or Necron tech. What loud noise do their weapons produce? Its just unorky to want to use such quiet weapons.
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Post by CELS on Jun 1, 2004 3:04:39 GMT -5
Orks don't use noisy weapons only, LordOf. They have so-called Zzap guns which are different sorts of beam weapons, plasma guns, etc. They also have squig catapults, shokk attack guns and other weapons that aren't very noisy, but very effective (and entertaining).
An important reason why Orks don't have Necron tech, is that the Necrons teleport away when they're destroyed, leaving precious little equipment for Orks to learn from.
As for Eldar tech, I would say that Orks learn much from Eldar laser, plasma and fusion weapons, among other things. As I've stated before, I think it's rather strange to stress the fact that orks learn from humans without mentioning that they've learned from eldar as well, since they've been in contact with eldar for much, much longer.
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